Episode: 1553
Title: HPR1553: TuxJam 33.333 - How we got into Linux 
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1553/hpr1553.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-18 05:03:01

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Do you know what I mean?
Yes I do.
Yeah.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
I do.
Hello and welcome to a TuX Jam special for HPR.
Again, after the success and post of comments to the last one, we decided that we'd do another one and this was a slightly special one along the theme of how we got until the next and we're also numbering this episode 33 and a third and I'm joined as always by Michael Hust, Kevin, how are you Kevin?
Hello, hello and a great big hello to actually all everybody out there in HPR land. I am very well and this you guys are in for a treat purely because anybody on the normal TuX Jam feed is not going to get this. This is going to be an exclusive episode.
Yeah, so all the juicy gossip of how Kevin and Andrew got into Linux. Now I was told that this was supposed to be the very first HPR episode you're supposed to release going by tradition but hopefully people will forgive us for doing this second.
Indeed and I've released lots of other episodes of non TuX Jam stuff and never actually done that episode so yeah, I'm sure they will forgive us.
I mean, you know, it's not that formal a place, HPR. Very good, very good. Now those of you who do normally listen to TuX Jam, then they'll know that or you said you will know that TuX Jam always stands out a wee bit different as being very Linux and open-source related but with quite a lot of music, not just a track here or a track at the end.
So we're going to go straight in with this because it's otherwise we're going to end up having a fully talk show. So we don't want that. You don't want to do that.
Bad, bad, how do you feel inflation there? So we're going to start with the first track and it's by Zenia Nen and it's just the way I'm feeling.
Everything's changing. The world turns upside down. Such a strange feeling. Feed off the ground, turn around.
Never turn around.
It's always to tell you that what I've just done come out. You want to understand me. You always let me down.
Why should I care now? How can I stay here?
Go away.
Over you.
It's all just like a game. You find it so amusing.
For it gets too late.
You don't know what you're losing. I don't care if it hurts.
So this is it, I'll make fair. I can't go on like this. Just the way I am.
Why is all that I want enough? How? And where did we go wrong?
And no, as it turns out.
It's time to face the truth. No matter what we do, can't you see it?
There's nothing left to say now.
When everything is placed in.
It's time to face the truth. No matter what I do for you. It's all just like a game.
You find it so amusing. For it gets too late.
You don't know what you're losing. I don't care if it hurts.
So this is it, I'll make fair. I can't go on like this. Just the way I am.
I can't go on like this.
And now for the first of tonight's interviews. I am going to invite Andrew to take the hot seat.
Oh, that is hot.
Okay then, would you like an ice pack for that?
I think so. I think I'll take the cold seat for a bit.
Fair enough, fair enough. Right then. Well, this is all about Linux and how we're good into it.
What was your first, let's just say, what was the first time you heard of Linux, even maybe before you started using it?
Yeah, only very shortly before I started using it. I was, let's see, now I've written this down somewhere, but not in the place it's in front of me.
But I can date it back to when I was at Glasgow University. And the machine that I was in the astronomy department and it was full of very expensive sun machines.
And I, some reasoned that I think it was my dad had suggested, well, you could buy a painting PC, which we're pretty new at the time.
So that dates it, it must have been about 93 or 94. We're not moving 85 actually, almost been 95, sorry.
Yeah. And he said you could buy for a thousand pounds, which is still quite a lot of money for a computer.
You could buy a Pentium and you could stick Linux on it. And you'll be really impressed.
And you'll have a machine that, you know, can keep up with all those 10, 20, 30,000 pounds sun work stations that your department has.
So that was, that was my first, I think that was the first time I'd heard of a Linux.
And did your dad give you a recommendation, or did he just leave it the open ended Linux statement?
No, no. Now, I think most people would be used to trying to get their parents into computers.
I should point out my dad has been working with computers since the six days. So he was very much an expert.
And I really, I was so new to doing anything with computers back then.
Well, I mean, with anything serious with them, you know, I do do a bit programming and stuff, but I've never meddled with an operating system before.
So he came along with, I guess it was a stack of floppy still back then and installed.
I think it was like where three point something would be into maybe slightly, I think it's like with three point something onto this Pentium machine when it arrived my desk.
And how were your initial thoughts on it as far as usability goes? I mean, how did it compare to what you were using in uni?
Were your skills very easily transferable or was it quite a steep learning curve?
Well, that's a very good question because, of course, back in that time, this was pre Windows 95, you know, really.
So my only experience of Microsoft stuff was Windows 3.1, and that was absolutely laughable compared to the Macs at the time, which the university library had.
And especially the really swanky sun workstations, you know, with our ex windows, and I think we had my motif.
It was sun offs and salaris was just coming along. So it was, it was all very shiny stuff at the time.
And I have to say Linux X386, ex windows, I guess it was FVWM.
And that was a window manager, I would have FAD, because this was pre no more KDE, I would believe.
Certainly, I don't remember them being around at the time.
And it looked basic, but it was very compatible with what I was used to on the sun workstations.
And in fact, in some ways better, because I, you know, not only do I have a very fast machine for computations, which is why I got it,
but I was only person in the office that could listen to music using a program called WorkBone on my PC. Nobody else could do that.
Oh, excellent. So you were almost like a, you were flying the flag for this out of my very early stage, where then what problems did you encounter in the early days?
Well, I can remember the installation procedure. I had not a clue, my dad sat there, and he was very patient.
And this is nothing like the installation of any operating system, especially Linux now.
It was really tough ride, but my dad had done it before, so I watched with big music when he went through it.
The only time I remember him getting stuck was configuring X386, which was the, I guess the granddaddy of Xorg.
So essentially, you had to code all these, your monitor refresh rates into these things called mode lines, which was in the equivalent of the Xorg.com file.
I forget what it was called, probably X, X386.org, come for something like that, I forget.
And it was quite difficult to get those mode lines, right, to get those refresh rates, right.
And there was also the risk that you may fry your monitor if you got it wrong.
I remember that was mentioned a few times, but other than that, I think it was pretty straightforward.
Now, just out of curiosity here, I'm just thinking going back to Windows 3.1 days, and certainly from my experience, that was kind of before a time when, you know, many people had access to the internet at all.
So, what were the big draws for Linux at that time?
I mean, the advantages of using Linux at that time?
Not so much the advantage, but what drew you to it in the first place?
I mean, I certainly know, like I said, the security was one of the huge things that drew me.
That probably wouldn't, I mean, that bigger issue back then before.
I mean, I'm assuming we were talking about a time before the internet was connected to the PC 24-7.
Oh, well, at the university at that time, since, oh goodness, since, at least 1992, probably 1990, I was used to working with all was on internet PCs and universities.
I mean, I guess in some kind of sense, universities had that in the UK through what I call the Janet Network, so that wasn't at all novel.
That was old hat for me by that point.
What was new was the fact that for a thousand pounds, you could have something running a, this Linux operating system that outperformed, you know, I don't know, I mean, I can't, I don't remember the prices, but a tens of thousands of pounds sun work station.
That to me was the thing that turned heads as much as being to listen to my CD easily enough.
So it was actually the game of raw computing power out of the machine, having the power of a Unix like operating system for a very low price.
That was what really swung it, because, you know, universities, at least the, like my experience of astronomy at universities is that you don't have a lot of money to play with for your computational resources.
Certainly, it doesn't seem to be as much back then as you might think universities might have had.
Okay, right, so yeah, you've answered my question there.
What about, I'm thinking, what are the big problems of getting anybody over?
Nowadays is, well, one of the big arguments is always about software and software not being readily available.
That's not necessarily true, but how was it back then? I mean, where, where, where things quite in kind of beta stage alpha stage, was it kind of quite buggy?
Or was that quite a large supplier software already there?
It was, I remember it being very stable, you know, I remember that machine running for months, maybe years, without ever going down unless I told it to.
And you remember, you may remember that Pentium's were prone to overheating, so that was no mean feat at the time.
It was a very impressive piece of kit.
So, as for applications, well, I mean, this is pre-microsoft office domains.
As for, like web browser, I mean, I mean, the webs in its infancy, the webs only a year or two old.
So, I think I was using NCSA Mosaic at first.
And then, probably was Netscape, which was Netscape I was using from my web browser, and it was stable.
I actually remember the very first time on the sun workstation, must have been 92 and 93.
Somebody said, come and look at us, it's the World Wide Web, it's amazing, you can click in bits and text, and it takes you to another bit of text that explains those words, you know, there were hyperlinks in other words.
And this person was enthusing, and I went through to the computer room, and this extremely expensive workstation.
And he went, look at this, and he clicked on the link, and the whole of NCSA Mosaic just crashed.
And I laughed and said, that's rubbish, I went back to my desk.
Yes, we even back then, you had become a zealot, you know, an ex-sealot, so you would be saying, that's rubbish. Look, I've been doing that for ages.
Yes, so did you stick with SlackWit for your entire computing day since then, or should I say, Linux days?
Because I know you still currently use it.
Yes, well, this is where I have to make my confession, Fabric Evie.
What happened was, by the late 90s, everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people I was working with, even in academia,
were starting to be seduced to the dark side, and using Microsoft Word, and I was getting word files attached to emails.
And also, when you went to buy a laptop, it came with Microsoft Windows 98 on it. You didn't get a choice.
You had to go through, jump through a lot of hoops to put Linux on it.
So I got a laptop with Windows 98 on it, and I'm sorry to say that for a good few years, I used Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office, and I was no open office back then as well to give you an alternative.
So that was that, but I didn't give up on Linux completely. I moved to the Open University, and I said, look, I can't actually do my research without a Unix type operating system.
There was a few things like C-programs that I ran, do number crunching, and some NASA data that I worked with.
So I got a laptop that dual booted into Red Hat, pre-Red Hat Enterprise Linux, original Red Hat, and it had no memory, but I never liked that very much.
I was never happy with that Linux, Red Hat Linux, that it was just, I didn't feel a home at all.
Although it was superior to my first outing with Slackware, given that it was good five years later at least.
And then I carried on in this dark place into the 2000s, and I think I made the switch back in 2003. I went back to Linux.
But the interesting thing was the thing that got me back into Linux was not that it was superior to Windows.
In fact, many ways you could argue that it was actually a hindrance in my day-to-day life because of all the Microsoft Office stuff I had to deal with.
But I actually read The Cathedral in a Bizarre by ESR Eric Raymond, and I read such read stuff by Richard Stollman.
And so it was the false element of Linux, which I'd never understood before to be fair. I'd used Linux a lot.
I'd never really appreciated how it was put together. When I realized that, I was hooked and that drew me back in, and I never looked back.
And then I returned to Slackware. It was actually my dad again who literally offered me a Slackware 11 disc and said, try this.
And I did. And I don't think at the time I recalled that it was Slackware that I used in the beginning. I didn't make the connection until a while afterwards.
No, that's clearly quite a big jump. So you went from roughly two or three up to 11. I mean, did you know that it was Slackware?
Did you notice the same operating system, or at the time did you just think this is just completely new and updated system?
There's almost no connection apart from the fact that it's Linux-based.
Oh, it was it was night and day. I mean, it really was. I mean, Slackware 11, which came with one of the mature versions of KDE3, was so much better than the Red Hat with known that I'd used many years before admittedly.
And a lot better than the very rudimentary stuff that I've been using back in the mid-90s.
My first outing was Slackware. I should say that I don't think I was all.
I say I wasn't aware of the force aspect of the free GNU underpinnings Linux back in the 90s. I didn't appreciate that.
I'm not entirely sure I went on saying, by the way, I use Linux. I think it was just a family even called Linux back then.
You know, it just it didn't matter. It was a bit like saying it was of no real interest to me anymore than saying I use a three pin wall socket to plug my plugs into.
You know, it really was like that. I didn't care. I was just using what works best.
Yes, which actually many people could say, okay, the freedom lovers are going to hate me for saying this.
But to be honest, that's almost like what's come with the likes of Android.
Now, you know, people who actually use it unless they're really into it, don't really care. They just think it's what suits me best.
And in many ways, that's what I think when people use Linux for that reason, it's a major win.
That's the way I personally feel, because they're not actually going for it for a belief system or, you know, any moral values, they're purely going for because it is the better system.
Yes, and it was certainly certainly like that.
And so I feel my journey was a bit backwards in the sense that I start, you know, one of backwards.
And what would I mean backwards in that not quite the way other people encountered Linux is that I feel that a lot of people are going to learn expires freedom associations with me.
It was almost the other way around. It was, it was just because it was a better operating system back then, because Windows wasn't.
It was, well, it was very immature and rubbish in the mid 90s until Windows 95 basically Windows was just rubbish.
No, I'd still say that it's still pretty rubbish, really.
Unfortunately, I'm forced to use it at work, but that doesn't stop me taking my laptop and I'm using that from most of my day to day stuff.
Yes, well, I have to say that if I was to rate Windows, it probably peaked somewhere from me Windows 2000, Windows XP, and then descended.
With respect, I could even argue that the peak was fairly rubbish in a number of ways, but mostly in a freedom, freedom sense.
Yes, that's true. Windows has never been one to embrace freedom, not at all.
Right then, so that's actually, that's taken us from right from the very start, right to the way through the present day.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Well, not really other than, as you mentioned, I still use Slackware, and I've played around with a load of different Linux distros, including Ubuntu and Unity, and I have to say I get on well with all of them.
I used Ubuntu Unity for six months, but I do keep going back to Slackware.
I have a Cento server, really an old NPC in the cupboard to my left, and it's fine, it doesn't bother me, it doesn't need rebooted, it needs very little maintenance or some occasional upgrades.
But when it does come time to think of it, I do wish I was dealing with Slackware, maybe because I know Slackware the best after all these years.
Yes, well, that's it. I mean, some of the times, you know, it is just down to what you're, if you're very used to something, if you're very comfortable with something, then that's what you like.
It doesn't necessarily matter if, you know, it's necessarily bad or worse, it's just different, and you're just maybe more comfortable with the route you know.
I think that's probably true for most of us.
Yeah.
That's a fair summary. So that's me, I think, going on about my Linux history long enough. Time for a tune, do you think?
Yes, I think so, and this is by a beautiful tomorrow, and the track is all I want to be is happy.
I think about the time I'm living in.
It makes you think about the time I'm living in.
It makes you want to give up that giving.
It's bringing me down.
You know that it's bringing me down.
It's bringing me down.
You know that it's bringing me down.
It's a talk of the town, it's all over the news.
If you want to give things done, give it a change of views.
Well, I'm satisfied so far, so why should I care?
I know there's no solution to be found anywhere.
I don't want to be upset.
worry about the governments in every little thing that will bring me down again.
There's everything going on so long.
Don't blame me, I've done no wrong.
I don't want to take on all the problems of society.
Because all I want to be is happy.
Nothing but happy.
I see no reason to believe in what you're telling me.
Hey, mister, don't you know you can join your own destiny?
Sometimes I think they don't change, but I'm not so sure.
But I'm not sure.
Is anyone ever going to find a cure?
It's always the same old zone.
Nobody ever's going to get along.
As long as I'm still among the living and the free.
Because all I want to be is happy.
Nothing but happy.
All I want to be is happy.
I just want a life to live.
All I want to be is happy.
I don't want to take just in.
They say you've got to take your stand.
If you call yourself a man, you will always land on hand.
But I don't want to be pushed around.
Just so I can stand my ground.
Maybe you'll think my life's a joke, but I don't see what's going to happen.
All I want to be is happy.
I just want a life to live.
All I want to be is happy.
I don't want to take just in.
All I want to be is happy.
I just want a life to live.
All I want to be is happy.
I don't want to take just in.
All I want to be is happy.
I just want a life to live.
Welcome back.
I hope you enjoyed that tune.
Now it's someone else's turn to go in the hot seat.
Okay, if you don't mind the electrodes, that's just for extra warmth.
Just keep you nice and toasty in the hot seat.
Are you ready?
Yes, I'll go in and bear it.
I'm putting the factor 50 on my thighs here.
Right in, I am well planted in this very, very hot seat.
In fact, I'm pouring this cup of tea on it to cool down.
Okay, so what was your first Linux distribution?
Well, actually, I don't know to be honest.
Now you may think that's really odd.
But my first Linux distribution, believe it or not, was on the Xbox.
The Xbox.
Yeah, I was just waiting for that reaction.
The Microsoft Xbox.
Yes, correct, yes.
I never really, to be honest, I'd never heard.
I didn't know that like many people probably still today.
I didn't know that there were too many alternatives to Windows.
I'd used Mac and in school, I'd use the acorns and Windows.
And I'd never really heard of too many other different ones.
And the thing that got me into Linux, or initially started off of my path to Linux,
was Microsoft's greed and closed downness of the Xbox.
And that is actually how, believe it or not, I came to find out about,
as my mate described it, Linux, as most people probably started their life calling it.
Yes, indeed, I did as well.
So how, I mean, is it not, it strikes me as quite a difficult way to start?
Is it not difficult to install it on an Xbox?
Well, the reason being, I'll actually tell you why I even found out about it,
was because I'm quite a big fan of American football.
And there's always been the Madden series in the UK.
But if you actually want to get into it a bit more, then you can go,
to a college game, there's an NCAA college football,
there's the Arena League football game, all those ones.
I don't actually think the Arena League ones will be developed.
But they all fit together nicely.
So in other words, if you had a game, like with the college one,
and you've saved it through and then you played Madden,
you could actually pick up the college players that you played as in Madden.
So it worked really well.
But the Xbox was horribly locked down.
And I got these games, and lo and behold, I suddenly realized,
oh, with a minute here, these are coded.
I cannot play them, they're region coded.
So I looked up online, thought, right, how do I get round this?
And my mate, who I just happened to notice, he was a real computer guy.
I remember, he was a computer teacher, but he went way beyond teacher level.
He was really seriously into computers.
Right, do me a favor, I'll say.
I notice you've got an Xbox that does not look like stock.
I say, what is it?
And he says, oh, that's a chip, and it's running Linux.
I'll say, what's Linux?
And he says, oh, it's a different operating system.
And I say, will you do that to mine?
He says, yes.
And he came along and put on this distro for me.
He didn't, I actually didn't seem to do a heck of a lot.
As far as installing distro, it seemed pretty quick.
But it was the most difficult part, I would say,
was he had to open up the Xbox and put in the executor 3.
I remember that, executor 3 chip.
And that probably was the most difficult part.
And then he flashed it and flashed the Xbox and it worked.
And I thought, wow, what an amazing amount of extra features
that were never included before.
So it essentially turned an Xbox from a gaming machine
into a heck of a lot more.
So that was my very first experience.
And so you could now play other Xbox games
on this chip, souped up for Xbox?
Yes, well, the main reason I did it was because I was really want
just to play the region, the games from North America.
So I'm top-end nails at the time when the first came out
the Xbox games weren't, they weren't a heck of a lot of them.
But the ones that were here were really expensive.
Now, Madden came out and I think it was,
this is going back in 2004.
Madden 2005 came out.
And it was, I think it was 50 quid in the UK.
Now, I got Madden and NCAA, both of them,
sent over now legitimately, not through eBay or anything,
but it was from a legitimate store that would post overseas.
A lot of them wouldn't.
And I got them both for, I think it was 32 pounds.
It was a heck of a saving, even if I didn't want the other one,
just even on just a Madden game.
But it was for both of them and it really was a big saving.
Because also the other thing I noticed was the,
there was a lot of games came out in America
that just never made it over here.
Yeah, so that sounds like a bit of a jump forward
so that you could open up your gaming experience.
But on the technical level, what I'm wondering is,
didn't the Xbox run Windows?
So how did these Windows or something like Microsoft Windows,
you'd expect?
So how did these Windows games run on something that was Linux?
To be honest, I have no idea.
Because I just, as far as I was concerned,
I used quite a few of the new features.
It gave me quite a lot of different features, in fact.
And I just kept on playing games.
And to be honest, that was all I used it for.
And that was my first experience or no-inful experience of it.
However, I didn't actually put two and two together to think,
oh, the Xbox is Windows, well, wait a minute,
this must mean that my computer has got, you know,
I could maybe try this on the computer.
So that was 2004.
So it actually took me another three years
before I actually attempted to install,
by this point I had been told it is not Linux, it's Linux.
So 2007 was the first time I had actually installed it.
And do you remember what you installed it back in 2007?
Yes, I do.
It was the very first one I installed was SUS.
I can't remember exactly what number it was,
but to be honest, I knew about it about Linux
and I didn't know which ones were which.
And I got an old laptop somebody had given me.
And I thought, wait a minute, you know, I looked it up online.
I was reading about this Linux and I'm thinking,
oh, okay.
And someone recommended me.
Go for SUS.
It's a good starter distro.
And I got it installed, installed very, very easily.
I really liked it.
But the big problem I had was the drivers for this laptop did not work.
So I couldn't get the modem working at all.
I just didn't see any internet connectivity with it.
So that unfortunately brought my very first attempted install in Linux
to a kind of a broad end.
So after a week of failing to get a find an appropriate driver,
like I said, I kind of gave up there.
But I wasn't ready to give up quite yet.
Ah, well, I mean, that is quite an interesting story.
So you came from the Xbox to using one more mainstream distro.
But then we're thwarted by a driver problem.
So what did you do after that?
Well, after that, I had actually been speaking to somebody else.
And this was speaking to them in the flesh,
rather than just online.
And they said to me, what did you use?
And I said, SUS.
And he says, no, no, no.
And that's great for somebody that knows a bit about it.
Because you're a virgin, more or less as far as Linux goes.
He says, there's a distro called Ubuntu.
He says, go and try that.
And I thought, OK, then.
And I installed it.
And it was 7.10.
I was my very first distro installed.
And I was utterly amazed.
Everything worked.
I mean, the one thing that I had heard of with Linux,
the main problems from what people have been saying
on the grapevine, of course, and all this was,
oh, you'll spend most of your life in a terminal.
That's not good for a Windows person.
There's no programs.
And any programs that you do have are very,
they're all homemade and they're just a pile of rubbish.
And at that time, Ubuntu was pretty stock,
known to desktop.
And I started playing about with it.
I really like this.
It came with quite a few,
it came with quite a few programs installed.
And I was really impressed with just the range.
And also then, it had back then.
It had a software, like its own version of the software center.
Nothing was like now.
It was actually quite a nice thing.
I quite liked it back then.
It was a simple, quick thing.
It was almost like maybe a better version of,
basically, I could describe it to modern days.
Probably a better version of Fedora's yum gooey.
It actually was, it was nice and it was quick to use.
Nothing like that, that's big and bloated as the Ubuntu software center.
It is presently.
Was that the one that had all these different levels of repose?
It would say multi-verse and so forth?
Was it that one?
Yes, I, and it had some graphics and had Wii icons.
But certainly it was, there was nothing flash about it.
And it didn't slow down your machine to a complete halt.
Yeah, I do remember,
my first experience of that, because it's quite unlikely anything
that I was used to in Slackware.
And it was quite good, but I couldn't really get my head rolling
all the ideas of different repositories
and why there were some things in one repository
and other things in other repositories.
And, you know, why?
I remember being totally baffled by that.
I found what I wanted, obviously.
But, I don't know if I quite got my head rolling that.
Well, to be honest, I came from, like I said,
a Windows background there.
And I hadn't had my smartphone at that point.
So, this whole app store thing was totally new to me.
So, actually, to be honest, I hadn't anything to compare it to.
And I quite liked it.
And I thought, wow, this is brilliant.
So, you know, you're going through and you're looking through all of these.
Now, it seemed to be the extreme opposite from Windows, purely because
it was a case of, with anything I used to do Windows,
you had to go and install it.
You had to go find it, sorry.
Then install it.
Then you had to go through a bunch of questions.
Then you always end up installing that blim
and thing that would add something to your browser,
despite the fact you never told it to.
And then it was all stuff running in the background.
So, this was, I thought, wow, this is utterly amazing.
So, that was my kind of first usable,
let's just say, experience of Linux on the desktop.
And I have to give credit.
Ubuntu was the one that convinced me.
And now, as far as, one thing I didn't say was,
as far as why I went there, it was purely down to the fact that
I had, I've always been one for, I'm also not believe it
and shading is catering, you know.
And on Windows, that's re-not a sensible option to take.
And I used to spend a fortune on security and firewalls and things,
but I used to regularly, quite regularly, get viruses.
And this time, what had actually happened was,
I got this virus and I could not get rid of it
and it really just took my system down.
And so, I reinstalled Windows and I was like,
oh, this takes forever, oh my word, this was so slow.
And then I was trying out a similar piece of software
and it happened again and I thought,
you know what, forget it, I'm through with this.
I do not want to go through this again.
And I actually spoke to my neighbour who's, he's an old guy,
but he had never tried it and I said to him,
what about Linux?
He says, oh, you know, there's too many flavours,
I haven't a clue what even to start with.
So, when I'd actually heard him at the Ubuntu,
Ubuntu, you see, we both actually tried it then
and that was actually what got me into it in the very first place.
Oh, so it must be a very enlightened place,
Lewis, the island of Lewis, where you live.
I'm not sure anyone in my entire street would know
what I was talking about.
You can still, if I start asking them about Linux
or Linux or anything like that.
Well, that's actually one thing that people always get surprised at.
You know, people, you know, forget about fashion trends and then
like that, that's not up here.
But when it comes to computing, we really do have quite a good
knowledge base for the majority.
And I think it's purely because you kind of have to,
because if you don't, and you just limit yourself,
for example, for just what you can get in town,
you really are kind of getting yourself into,
well, basically, you're limiting what you can get.
And also, you're putting your price up.
And also, the other thing is we, as islanders,
you get what's called the AirDiscount scheme
and the road equivalent out of some things like that.
Now, with the AirDiscount scheme, you can only apply for that
as far as I know if you do it online.
So if you, basically, it almost takes about third of your
flight bill if you want to go away, if you have your ADS card.
So unless you get into the computer side of things,
you know, you can't use that.
And that goes for anybody whether there's, you know,
six or a hundred and six is going to have to actually use it.
Indeed. And that should, at this point,
point out to listeners who are not familiar with Touch Jam or KVNI,
that I live in Glasgow in the central belt of Scotland.
And greater Glasgow is, I don't know, two million people in it.
Whereas KV lives in a part of Scotland called the Hebrides,
the right up and in the northwest.
And I think it's true to say that you're probably,
in almost every sense, the word further away from me than London is.
So, you know, I mean, you really are quite far away from the central belt
of Scotland, aren't you?
Oh, yes. And as far as numbers go,
I think that the last count here,
and this is Lewis and Harris combined was 20,000,
just like you were 20,000 people.
So, you know, we've not got a dense population of you either.
Indeed, no, the suburb in which I live has at least double that population.
That's just the suburb I live.
But it has struck me, actually,
my first hand experience, not just of Lewis,
but other islands, very different island orkney.
There again, you see this people are far more talented than you would expect.
And I guess I've never thought about it before you said it,
but you have to be because, you know, you only have another,
well, you only got about another 1,999 people socialised with.
Yeah, that's it. You get bored of them very quickly.
You know, you're used absolutely sick of it.
Yeah, so that was my first, very first experience,
so with Ubuntu, and at the time, in my naivety, I thought,
oh, well, you know, I'm quite happy with this.
I'm going to stick with this.
I'm not going to be one of these people who change.
I became a complete nutter distro, but at one point,
I think I was changing my distro every week.
So, I must admit, but I knew nothing, though, of the...
To me, this was just an alternative operating system.
It was not anything to do with freedom, it was nothing to do with us.
I didn't know what OpenSource was,
so it wasn't until I actually got involved with Ubuntu forums,
which I must admit, I really did find them quite good.
That I actually started talking about different...
I started hearing about different things like OpenSource, etc.
What's this OpenSource stuff?
How you're using the whole thing as OpenSource?
I was like, oh, wow, that's brilliant.
It was through that.
It was through coming to it.
Not because of that, I came to it.
It was actually through the forums people talking about it
that actually I was introduced to free software.
Ah, well, OK, then that's not that different from my story.
Maybe that pattern is more common than I thought.
It's quite reassuring.
If that is the case that people are coming to it
for the usability of using first and then making this extra discovery
at the end of the freedom,
so just in the last little bit,
you're talking what we discovered Ubuntu,
were you using Linux as a day-to-day thing?
We actually did work, well, we didn't work at your work,
but you were actually using it.
You weren't just playing with it,
but you jumping back to Windows every so often to do other tasks.
No, I pretty much embraced it.
In fact, I was using it,
but I wasn't getting an awful lot of success on certain things.
It was just good timing.
To be honest, this was now there's a magazine in the UK
and a lot of people know it, Linux format,
and they at one point used an awful lot of specials.
It was a bit six months after I'd actually installed
Ubuntu using Ubuntu,
and I did dual boot.
I kept Windows XP on my system for a wee while,
and they released one saying,
Linux made easy,
dump Windows for good.
It was a special,
and I bought the magazine,
and I used every now and then it had gone through everything.
I mean, some stuff that I couldn't find online,
because I didn't want to ask,
because it seemed a bit basic.
But they went through absolutely everything you do day-to-day,
and took us through it,
and it should be honest,
it was the good timing of that special,
and that magazine that made me,
then made a conscious effort to say,
right, I am using this exclusively,
and actually at that point,
I wiped Windows completely once I got so comfortable
with it that I think,
I just not much I can't do that I need to do.
I mean, I can't do.
Well, the biggest thing was gaming,
but even gaming,
okay, in the 90s, I was a big gamer.
I hadn't been for quite a while,
so gaming was never really that big a deal to me personally.
So, you know, it wasn't like
I was giving up a huge part
of my computing life for that.
So it was the one thing,
I mean, there are still some programs
where I'm thinking,
oh, I wish they'd come over to Linux,
or get out of Linux port.
But I put it this way, I'm surviving.
I do not have Windows anymore
on the machines at all,
so I'm quite proud to say
there's a Windows 3 household.
Very good congratulations.
I should also mention that
the Linux format magazine
that you mentioned,
probably the people that wrote those
that are that special,
probably now the same people
who were over at Linux voice
would imagine.
Yeah, most I seem to remember
Paul Hudson was quite a big
contributor to that one,
and I know he's,
I don't actually know,
where did Paul go?
He kind of, he moved on
from Linux format quite a long time ago.
Yeah, okay,
he didn't go to Linux voice.
He certainly knew he left
Linux format before.
Yeah, so I forgot about him.
Yes, but that would have been
that far back.
Yeah.
Yes, I so,
so there you go.
So unfortunately,
I didn't come for the
noble cause and the,
the freedom.
But in saying that,
once I found out about it,
I did embrace those things.
I mean, there's,
I wouldn't say,
I'm not a total diehard,
and I certainly,
I'm going down the route of saying,
oh, I have to,
everything has to be free and open.
But certainly if there is
a free and open solution available,
I will take it.
I mean, it's,
but at the same time,
I don't want to say to myself,
right, I'm totally limiting myself by saying,
I'm not going to use it for the likes of
just things,
for example,
you know,
I still do install Flash
onto my system.
I just speak just to make the way
a bit more usable.
I still install Java.
Those kind of things.
So yeah,
like I said,
I know I've,
I've got the ability to play MP3s.
Okay, all my music files are actually an hug.
But again,
that was something else
that Linux introduced me to.
I'd never heard of it.
I just always thought
there was just MP3s or WABS.
That's again,
that's my ignorance
coming from Windows background.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
I guess I was,
I was no different.
So I suppose,
um,
from the point where you left
off the Ubuntu,
uh,
to the present,
the large part
of your distro hoping
is actually recorded
for posterity in,
uh,
uh,
in past Tuxtile episodes,
isn't it?
Yes,
although to be honest,
there was, uh,
probably before I even started
Tuxtile, um,
it was probably more prevalent,
should I say,
with distro hoping before then,
uh,
what really settled me,
and this may seem,
most people probably might
shriek at this point,
was,
I always fancy trying,
uh,
uh,
build your own distro.
So,
I think the first time I built
was an arch system.
And,
at the time,
archway,
I didn't know this
a bit arch,
how bleeding-age arch was.
And,
I installed it,
it ran,
and I had it for about a week,
and I upgraded it,
and everything broke.
There's nothing
worked after that.
Look,
okay,
right,
that's maybe a bit,
maybe a bit too cutting-edge
for my liking.
So then I went to Gen2.
Now,
Gen2,
I ran,
and I loved,
I like it.
It was just something I,
I loved how much control you had.
I loved how much,
you know,
you could say what you wanted.
And,
I ran that,
all the way up until,
known to, basically,
uh,
well, it was,
class has been finished,
it died a death.
And the problem I had with then was,
Gen2,
when I installed everything myself,
and I chose what I wanted,
was lightning faster,
this computer,
but it was noticeably faster,
but anything else.
Uh,
the problem then was,
once,
known to stop,
well, I,
you know,
it's a bit,
maybe a bit of a security risk,
I keep using it.
So I installed,
I updated
and became known three
hated that.
I really just did not like it.
And then I installed XFC,
and I certainly noticed,
hey,
wait a minute,
this thing that was lightning fast,
were you adding
holy things to it,
has become
sluggish,
and you look at your,
defeating the purpose of
Gen2 here.
And unfortunately,
by that time,
we guys in my life,
and I just didn't have the time
to actually write,
I'm going to go and restart
and rebuild.
Uh,
so it's been then,
I kind of moved,
I thought, right,
I've got to be something
with a wee bit more,
a wee bit, let's,
let's say,
user friendly,
and not quite as long to build.
And the first one I used
for a long time,
actually,
after,
was a crunch bang,
the debut and based one,
that was based on XFCE.
And I installed that,
used that,
loved it,
but I still wasn't entirely
happy that,
it still came
with a pre,
pre-loaded set of,
uh,
applications.
I want to choose what I want.
So then,
after using that,
for quite a while,
I,
then just installed,
uh, debut,
and built up for myself.
Uh,
and that was pretty much it.
I still run debut,
now I've got, uh,
three other partitions here,
which I do for testing,
uh, different distrust,
just like,
for the likes of Toxjam,
or if there's something else
that takes,
takes my fancy,
but, uh,
apart from that,
I have been on,
I've been on Debian for,
ooh,
let me think,
probably the best part
of three years now,
which is very unusual for me.
I,
most of my family
are on either Mint
or Ubuntu,
so I do tend to keep
a partition with Ubuntu
on it,
just so I can keep up
to speed myself.
Uh,
but apart from that,
uh,
yeah, like I said,
I've been pretty much stuck
with Debian,
after I've stuck with Debian
for the last week,
while Debian testing,
I wasn't unstable
and,
I had a bit of a disaster
when something,
something recently,
I'm talking a bit
in the last kind of six months,
something recently updated,
which just seemed
to break everything,
so I just rebuilt the system
up from scratch,
but it's fun to do that now
and again,
and it's a heck of a lot quicker
doing it in Debian
than it is in Gen 2.
Yes, yes,
ah,
well that sounds,
that sounds like a quick
adventure.
I should point it again
to listeners who are not
familiar with it,
with us,
uh,
that, uh,
we guy isn't some kind of,
Linux-hating dwarf
that hangs on with KV,
but is in fact,
you're a sudden, isn't he?
Yes he is,
and you know,
it's amazing when,
when little people
come into your life,
quite a much time
to actually take up,
and that's been the main reason
I've never
gone back to Gen 2,
so I don't have a free time
these days.
Yeah,
I should mention it,
my son and my daughter,
they've both grown up,
using a computer
that, uh,
using my desktop
computer,
that I'm recording,
that runs,
uh, Slackware
with KDE,
you know,
and they,
they just don't know,
I mean, my son
has switches
between, uh,
a Windows computer
and, uh,
and a KDE desktop,
isn't,
doesn't really care,
just, you know,
uh, just gets on
for whatever he wants
to do,
completely oblivious to,
uh,
uh,
whatever operating system is,
and, well,
again,
children are much more like that,
than adults.
Yeah,
I think,
if they can switch
between them,
and they can actually
see the difference.
That's what I think
Linux could easily be,
a winner,
because they see
the difference.
I mean,
I was even,
I even did that today,
it's kind of surprised me,
because I switched on my,
work,
a computer,
went and got a cup of tea,
was drinking it,
came back,
and it was still loading
the flip-off,
it was just like,
I was just
wonderful,
the monitor,
actually,
to be honest.
And then,
the monitor here,
and stupidly,
was expecting to go
and have a cup of tea
and made up,
and before it even got up,
and walked away,
my desktop was in front
of me,
and in a usable state.
So, when you see
things like that,
and when people actually see,
uh,
Linux being used
as a day-to-day thing,
uh,
all they've got,
you know,
it's a good enough
ammunition to dispel the myth,
that,
oh, Linux is impossible
to use,
because it's the same
as pretty much anything else,
point and click.
Yes,
indeed it is,
indeed it is.
So, any,
any final remarks
before we go on
to our final tune?
Uh,
no, nothing else.
Just, uh,
being an adventure,
but I must admit,
I would certainly not,
uh,
trade back.
There's no way I'd go back
to a Windows setup at all.
I must admit,
I really do love Linux.
I,
the only thing I would say
was if anybody
was thinking about,
uh, going,
or recommending somebody else,
move from Windows to Linux.
The only thing I would genuinely say
is, uh,
two things.
One,
if they run to trouble,
can they get a hold of you
or someone else?
Because,
I found out some older people,
especially,
they're not that comfortable
posting on forums.
And the other thing is,
if they are,
uh,
if there's teenager in the house,
do they need the latest
and greatest games?
Because,
at present,
although Steamwise may change us,
I would say,
it probably would be safer
to dual boot if that's the case.
Yeah, that's a point.
Yeah, I sometimes,
uh,
have to re-boot into
short-core Windows XP,
in fact,
it's on this machine to play
its favorite, uh,
game on now,
and Steam,
because it's not available
in Linux,
Steam.
Yes, that's quite,
quite true,
quite true.
So, what is our final tune?
Right.
Our final tune is
by the way I am,
and tune is,
answer my call.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hope so.
You know, so, you know, you're going on home and it's going a lot they could have been
somewhere else.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm so proud, free that my cold, I'm about to regain, I'm about to regain
This is my signal, I'm about to let the hand go round, don't let the hand go round
And on that note, this brings us to the end of the show.
If you'd like to contact us, you can contact the show, it's tuxjamatuncinstudio.co.uk.
We have on various social media sites, we're on twitter, joindayasperer.com, we're on micro.fragdev.com
And that's all at Uncinstudio there, but that's only for announcements.
That's not really for a yard, if you want a yard with us, well, we're both available in various places.
I'm at kevy on micro.fragdev.com, I'm also at kevy on dayasperer.net.gr, and I am unfortunately at kevy49 on twitter.
But to be honest, be expecting quite a delay in answering if you talk to me via twitter, because I really don't check it very often.
Now Andrew's available on various parts of the web, so I'll pass you over.
Well, I think the best place to try and talk to me if you want to is on micro.fragdev.com, which is a
like a new social status net platform, and I'm just called McNalloo MCNALU.
I do exist with that name in twitter, although you can try talking to me there, but I probably will hear you,
and now certainly wouldn't respond, so there's no point.
So the best place would be there, or you could email me as McNalloo.net, and you can see my blog, which is at blog.magnalloo.net.
Yes, and that's just pretty much come to the end.
No, this has been a special for HPR. Now before I forget, one last thing is we had, I was really pleased to see big news here for me,
not frame deals. The big news was my plane tickets finally came through for Podcrol Glasgow.
Podcrol Glasgow is going to take place on July the 11th. We hope to start at 6pm in the state bar, which is just off Socky Halls Street.
If you're on Socky Halls Street and you're heading along to the campus bar, which is going to roll the flags outside, it's directly across the road from there.
So it's just on one of the perpendicular streets. I can't remember the exact name of that street just now, but it's there.
So we hope to see you there. If you're thinking 6pm is just too early, then follow the on the various social media sites.
We'll hashtag it with Glasgow Podcrol, or is it Podcrol Glasgow, which one is it I can't remember?
I think it was Podcrol Glasgow. Maybe we'll put both hashtags in to be safe.
Yeah, maybe. So if you're thinking you'd like to join us up, then like I said, just look for the hashtag and we'll find it where we are.
So we'll probably move on. The only thing I will actually see, and I've said this a few times, with just with the nature of Glasgow public houses, it's not like a continent.
I mean, it's not even like in England where families are welcome and regular, regularly attend.
We are making this an over 18s only just purely because the nature of public houses in Scotland, most of them only have child licenses,
those seven and you do have to be eating and you've got to be out by seven or half seven or something like that.
So this is not really one to take the whole family to unless they are all over the age of 18 years.
I think there you said join us up, which sounds a bit like we're getting married. That's not the case.
Perhaps join up with us is probably the better form of words for that.
Yeah, guess who's a teacher here?
I'm sorry, I'm a giant pedant, I admit it, sorry.
Right, so I'll really wind you up here by saying, so you can all do come and join us at the state bar at 11th of July Glasgow 6pm.
So we hope to see as many people as we can there. Now it's not exclusively for just podcasters.
It's also for podcasters listeners as well.
So generally to be honest, as far as I'm concerned, it's anybody who really wants to come, can come.
If you'd like the creative commons music, if you like open source, if you like Linux podcasts, anything like that,
then please do come along and be made most welcome.
Yes, indeed. Yes, I'd love to see you there. In fact, I can now state that it will be one person in addition to the two of us that will definitely be there.
So we're standing at a definite three at the very least.
Sounds good to me. And now, in fact, before I forget, you will actually be able to spot us quite easily.
You may not know our faces. However, I'm in the process just now of getting t-shirts made up.
And mine will have Kevi on the back of it. And Andrews will have McNally on the back of it.
So if you're really lost, look for the people, look for the two idiots standing there with their names on the back of the t-shirts.
Yes, I've forgotten about that. Yes, that's great.
Well, right then. So on that note, then, it's the case of see you next time.
So this has been a touch jam special and HPR exclusive. This is not available on the touch jam feed.
If you would like to subscribe to us, the show more on a more regular basis,
then please head along to unseenstudio.co.uk and just search for the touch jam for touch jam.
So until episode 34, we shall see you then. Yes, bye bye, HPR folks.
Now, do you have the bumper? Yeah.
Yes, yes, I've got, I've got the bumper. Good job. We didn't, we didn't mention that.
That, uh, that's thirty-three and a third thing, and I wish I hadn't seen.
Yeah, like you were saying, yeah, no, that, that wouldn't be good. A tartey tree and a tarte.
A dirty tree and a tarte.
It is very good that we didn't do that at all. Dirty, three and a tarte.
Oh, I haven't switched off the record button yet.
Shall we edit this? Or we'll leave it as an outtake?
What we might as well also point out that whiskey is definitely not spent with any, while we're at it.
Oh, my word, no. That's just not right. Whiskey is spelled W-H-I-S-K-Y.
No, it's not. No, E.
I don't want E's in my whiskey. You get enough of a buzz of whiskey without adding E's to it.
I can't, and that note, we shall really stop recording.
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