Episode: 4646
Title: Mobile Gaming
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr4646/hpr4646.mp3
Transcribed: 2026-07-31 16:15:53 (official HPR transcript)

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 4646, for 2026-05-25
Today's show is entitled, "Mobile Gaming"
The host is Elsbeth and the duration is 00:56:26
The flag is Explicit, and the license is CC-BY-SA
The summary is "Elsbeth and Lee have a conversation about gaming, neurodivergence and other topics"
I eventually realize that's what you're doing.
Yeah, it's better than it, because it makes my brain squirrel into, I'm not supposed to be squirrely.
Okay, which is probably a good start to this, because the reality is, is I use games to manage my executive function.
Right, when did this start to think?
When I was in therapy, was I a while ago.
Probably about 2014.
Okay, so I've attended years ago.
Yeah, and was it something that was suggested to you or it was like uncovering something you need.
All my story already being done.
But then it like told you, actually this is quite a good thing for you to be made.
So my therapist realized early on the talk therapy was best for me.
Right.
Because if they told me, like if they asked me questions that were leading, I was aware that they were leading me.
Right, okay.
And so I would mask.
Right.
And I wasn't being authentic.
So once I started just having a therapist sit there with me and be like, yeah, you can fidget.
Yeah, you can pressure.
Yeah, or whatever.
And just let me talk.
So I have that thing to.
Yeah.
So I wasn't diagnosed as an ADHD until probably well after the therapist realized that I was.
Right.
So the therapist sort of knew you had these conditions.
It's got they didn't communicate to you.
Because I would have said there's no way possible I can have it.
Because that's how conditioned I was that I had to be.
And I was neurotypical.
Right.
I mean, did you even heard the word neurotypical for something?
And that's no, no, no, no.
So how would you framed it in your head like at that time?
The way I was supposed to be.
The way you were supposed to be was to conform with such norms of how cognitive function is for nothing people.
Okay.
And did you see a divergence from that as a negative thing?
Oh, absolutely.
Right.
It got me hurt before bullied abused, you know,
that all of that kind of led to why you're having therapy.
Yes.
Yeah.
But local games, even if it was just solid hair on the old phones, you know,
the ones you had to like press the button three times to get text one mother.
Oh, oh, yeah, those.
Yeah.
Okay.
So they didn't have a touch screen.
No, but they had solitaire on, you know, right.
My crafters.
Yeah.
Some sort of game like that.
My sweet bird.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
I have snikes.
But yeah.
Well, I mean, it's the same concept though.
This is I can think better when I'm doing something else.
Yeah.
When I'm playing the skin, this eros game, or even if I'm playing tiles or I sometimes,
I have to really concentrate on that.
But yeah.
If I'm just doing the daily mundane stuff, yeah.
I can have a conversation better when I'm doing that than if I'm just trying to have a conversation.
So I think we had a previous talk in your talk about the crash chain.
And I know it's maybe something that you've not been doing so much because of certain
things, but that appreciated the meant to act of crocheting.
These are analogies too.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That's why I like doing so.
If I can't focus on game, or, you know, I, I'm proud, you know, trying to make certain
that I'm not overdoing it because I can be one of those, you know, into gamers.
Yeah.
There's been times in my past where I've gained way too much.
And these little mini games allow me, you know, because there's, there's section down.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If I need to break my task, work up into 15 minute increments, I can work hard for 15 minutes.
And then, you know, say my game, or hit my V, or you know, if something for a little
bit, to just decompress from executive function.
So momentarily, let's say you're served.
You said before that adulting and executive function, almost as if they're similar to
a thing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, does it do?
To use, like, what we consider to be an adult, functional society is actually using a part of their
cognitive function that we refer to as executive function.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Do those things.
It's, it's, it's the sort of part of someone's mind that tells them, this is what's important.
This is a priority.
This needs to be done in this order.
You need to take these things off.
And anything that requires you to conform to society is what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
So you live on a farm.
Mm-hmm.
It's just to give you an example.
You live on a farm.
I've got that.
You live on a farm.
You're, maybe you have a remote job.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Where you can make money.
Yeah.
Take that out of it.
Let's say, let's say, living on the job on the farm is actually your stream of income.
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe you just grow stuff and look off the animals is not much work.
Can you just, you get money for doing that?
Well, you just find people will do that was something that you don't really have to deal with.
And it's just done for you and just having the fun.
The farm is kind of, that's sort of being kind of something.
Having a farm is work.
Yeah.
It's a different sort of work.
Yeah.
And the executive function that comes from that work is not as taxing.
Mm-hmm.
Well, you know, you don't do that.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Like the cows, that cows don't go again.
Complain if you'll.
Five times late.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The barley is not going to die yet.
But because you kind of dare to die later.
Right.
Yeah.
We've been racing.
Exactly.
Within a reason.
But the reality is that you get, you,
there's a reward for what you put into being a farmer or, you know,
doing things that are more nature connected.
Yeah.
Yes, I'm pace.
You know, it's like pace of life.
Yeah.
Sort of pace of life.
I mean, of course, you know, there might be,
I mean, if you don't back further even as we're getting some pretty dangerous stuff,
like running around the space.
Yeah.
Should have changed the world of business.
Yeah.
That's a different kind of function, I guess.
Yeah.
Exactly.
But in this, you know, in this world that we live in,
you can either get caught up in the digital rat race,
and commercialism, and whatnot,
and meeting deadlines, and, you know,
and losing your work life balance.
Yeah.
And you wind up getting caught into a job that you don't love.
And you're not doing what you love,
because you're just trying to make it up money to live in a city.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You have to balance that somehow,
especially when you have ADHD,
otherwise you go absolutely fucking insane.
Right.
And you lose yourself to the,
wouldn't life be simpler if we just didn't run the rat race,
because you had caught up in your head,
and you were going to think everything to realize that there's no meaning
to the type of life we're living.
Well, if you're selling insurance,
I kind of, I kind of find it hard to consider,
exactly what good you're doing for the world,
rather than scaring people that they're going to die of something.
And then they needed insurance to prevent that,
even that won't prevent that,
it would just deny that they get paid off of their debts,
and, yeah, had an eye.
Well, I worked in insurance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have my insurance license back in the US,
and I just, I'm burning out.
Yeah.
I was talking about burning in the insurance.
I did quite well when there was a fire in my parents' house,
and they used to hate a bull,
and a bull of Amazon was obviously not up to speck,
and it just decided to burst into flames.
And, you know, you've mileageed my very unheatable
for Amazon from...
I'm surprised.
Yeah.
No problem.
Yeah, yeah.
But this one burst into flames for some reason.
And, yeah, all the books got, all my books got smoked.
So they weren't burned, they were just full of smoke,
and they were real enough.
They got thrown away.
They had not caused me much over the years,
but it got like £1,000 for them,
just based on the valuation of them.
And so I spent, you know,
some, most of that money went to getting e-books instead.
Rather than, because at least then I'm going to burn down.
I mean, unless I was in state center,
just because I've been flames.
Well,
which is, you know, even if 100-tate centers
when I've been flames, it'd be 100 more.
Yeah.
I, you know, I can appreciate Amazon.
But at the same time,
the convenience is lovely.
There's a...
Obviously less and less patchyly.
Yeah.
I'm very similar to that one.
But Amazon.
Yeah.
But yeah, back in the day,
I feel like every dial is getting something to be too powerful.
And some other day, free printing thing was something or other.
Well, at one point in time,
Amazon had ethics.
And a moral code.
Hmm.
Well, yeah.
Until they got really, really rich.
Well, I mean, obviously,
yeah, obviously,
we don't have a slander in companies really,
because we can't say,
we've certainly,
exactly what was going on.
Yeah.
There are criticisms.
There are, there are,
there are different sites that are human, obviously.
But yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
And I think we're all aware,
well, most people,
whether the downsides to the way things
have come out.
Come about.
And I don't know if there's about,
well, here have them come it.
I know technology has made a big difference
to the whole world.
I can appreciate...
I can appreciate it.
And if it wasn't,
if it wasn't one particular company,
it would be another thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, and there is.
You know,
there's other companies trying to do it.
Yeah.
I don't know.
So, we were talking about living on a farm.
I think this,
this fabled idea of living on the farm.
And I always think of the blessed,
like,
in the country house,
where the guy goes to live on the country
in the country,
and he doesn't have such a good time with it.
Hmm.
After all.
Yeah, it's because of requires actual manual labor.
It's a different sort of executive function.
Yeah.
And tell you,
I've lived in the city.
Yeah.
Like big cities for the majority of my adult life.
Yeah.
But I've also lived rurally.
Yeah.
And I can remember as a child,
where I thought it was absolutely ridiculous,
and I had to get out and go pull the weeds out of the garden,
so we could actually have fruits and vegetables.
Baries and stuff.
But the older I get,
the more I think,
wow.
That really was the simple life.
Hmm.
Um.
There's it used to be a very shit conqueror with a good life.
Yeah.
It's the day.
In the set was the 70s of ITs.
There has been either a sort of a post-hipy thing
that people would go and try and try and have that natural way of being.
I think it could be.
It could be self-sufficient.
Yeah.
So we're going to be forced into it.
So we're going to be realized.
Whoa.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When that, what's going on in the world,
just leads to what's needed to be going to happen.
And, uh.
Or not.
I think that when technology gets so advanced,
that the human workforce isn't as necessary,
people are going to have to get back to the creativity of existing.
Yeah.
So that's actually probably the best outcome that we could have for ready.
Yeah.
Given the progression of things, uh.
Yeah.
The best outcome we could have for is just like humans and maybe redundant.
And we just go off and do our thing.
And we're not even important anymore.
In the grand scale of things.
What we do.
And I think we learned that our importance has more to do.
It's just being grounded.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
And modern day, like, as an entire industry,
you have well-being.
But it's just basically tells you to breathe.
Yeah.
Like, even beings have lost the ability to remember to breathe.
But it's about to be honest.
When you're so caught up with,
I have to meet expectations in my expectations.
Never matter.
What I need never matters because I have to meet this goal of what is expected to exist.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what we're saying is exactly function is something.
Like, one definition of it is it's the stuff that's important for being an adult in this sort of society.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I suppose surprising you in a space colony of being entirely different society.
I expect people would still need executive function of some kind just to run there.
Yeah.
But there's healthy executive function in the burnout executive function.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Remembering to brush your teeth and bath is healthy executive function.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Spending spending 12 hours a day at a computer.
Warring it with extreme anxiety about what's going on exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
But forgetting to be just fueling yourself and coffee is perhaps the not the best form of it.
Exactly.
Which is hard to find balance.
I know we've got a Sarah.
Yeah.
It's hard to find balance when you're.
I mean, I love the game.
Don't get wrong.
I love the game.
Yeah.
But if I'm sitting gaming all day.
And I'm not making an income off of that.
Yeah.
So that I can pay my bills.
Yeah.
Then I have to choose not the games.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have to find executive function.
Right.
So rewarding.
What you were telling me earlier was through the therapy.
You worked out a system in a way that you could be doing these adult tasks.
But then as a reward, you would let the part of your mind that didn't work that way.
Absolutely.
Have a little freedom.
Exactly.
One of the ways that you did that was playing games on the phone.
So when I started addressing the low-resignoral divergent.
Yeah.
I realized that it wasn't even.
I shouldn't feel guilty for one meeting those moments of.
Okay.
This is my reward for executive function.
Yeah.
I was so shamed about even.
Like.
The world that I grew up in was.
I needed to be a certain expectation.
Yeah.
And a certain role.
Yeah.
And I had to behave a certain way.
And I had to be high achieving.
Yeah.
And I was all meant for my good.
But that's not the way my brain worked.
And so I had to do things a certain way.
I realized now accepting that I'm neurodivergent.
That rewarding myself for doing tasks that I would just assume,
not even mess with.
Isn't something to be ashamed of?
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
I remember the balance that Scott told me.
One of my teachers.
I would be playing doom.
And I felt that I should be doing homework.
And like something more important.
He said.
And basically what he said was actually doing.
Why do I think that me playing the games is not important.
Doing the stuff that I wanted to do.
It was not important.
And it's like I just said just to shame that that was a character floor that I was wasting time on these things.
When I should be doing homework or something else like that.
By the way, he got fired later.
I have learned all things in moderation.
Yeah.
There was something like that.
That's a Buddhist sort of idea.
Like that's like having badminton.
So I'm not going to fall one way or two for the other way.
Not trying to be perfect.
But at the same time not be able to be chaotic or whatever.
Yeah.
Something that was something that was even just doing my yoga train.
Yeah.
I had to battle the mental.
Because there was a point in time when yoga was being preached as evil in the private
stood church.
Wow.
Okay.
This is something that I am not avert of.
I mean, I've heard of some things.
But that seems a bit beyond the pile.
I mean, I've heard of like dungeons and dragons could be considered demonic or something a bit of the power like that.
But the yoga.
Like, oh, I'm going to sit.
Like it.
Therefore, I'm how dishonoring or greater or something like that.
Really?
Yeah.
And I can't believe.
Speaking of T&D.
Yeah.
One of the dorm fathers at the boarding school that I attended was one of the pastors that helped save
the kid that killed his family and blamed it on D&D.
Oh, it was like that.
That was in the news.
Oh, this is 18.
Yeah.
It was in the 80s.
Yeah.
Yes.
From up the hallmark.
Yes.
Or back and forth between Alma.
But yeah.
He preached that dorm father preached the evils of D&D.
It was kind of hilarious because...
Because everyone knows that dice are unholy.
Exactly.
You know, they don't in the road to D6.
Because you never know what.
What?
Even like, jump out.
Yeah.
That's also when I found out that Lord of the Rings was considered evil too.
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
That was...
I've read this sort of a kind of rebellious culture when Lord...
When that was just come up with the 70s.
And like it would be in university campuses.
People would write this like good Frodo rocks.
Or something like that.
As like a counter culture thing.
Yeah.
And I can imagine in the sort of conservatism of the 50s, 60s.
How it would be kind of rebellious to be into that.
Fantasy culture is not granted in rigid Christianity.
It's such a bad idea.
I think he very much does have a moral centre to it.
It absolutely does.
But it also acknowledges that there are multiple aspects of a person's alignment.
Yeah.
And that alignment's can change.
Yeah.
So would you like to have a run for what was your earliest thing?
I mean, after when we moved to actual touch phones,
my games as we'd recognised them today with touch screens and things.
Probably when I...
After I find them come out when I find them having games on them.
What were your main games that you did on fans?
There's been so many of them.
Yeah.
I have to have multiple games because it depends on my brain.
Right.
Space?
Yeah.
Like I have to be in a certain headspace to play tiles or write.
And I have to be in a certain headspace to play arrows.
Yeah.
And I have to be in a certain headspace to play solitaire.
Yeah.
That's sort of thing.
What I need my brain space to be in determines what I play.
I play games with intentionality.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
I don't think...
I know it wasn't candy crash.
Yeah.
It might have been farmed in on Facebook.
What?
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
What was that angry birds are, man?
But that was like...
I was the one playing...
That was genre defining.
I mean, when angry birds came out of people thought,
oh wow, these games evolved.
There's something...
There's something...
...has new, has occurred in the world.
This game is really, really.
Well, I mean, what makes me, is like,
the games that I would play in, say, the 90s, early 90s even,
on a, on a, on a, a computer, on a 60-bit computer.
Those games translate really well to a mobile phone.
And yet, I wouldn't go near a mobile phone to play that same game.
I love playing in the 90s on the computer.
On a tiny little screen thing.
It's just...
Yeah, but that's because...
Because I'm easily prejudiced and bigoted and stuff.
It's about how my gaming, like if it's not on a screen,
if it's not a big screen, and it doesn't count as a real game,
or something.
Oh, no.
I think...
I'm not going to get a game slapped.
No.
I like my phone games.
Yeah.
I like my console games, like my PC games.
Yeah.
But I...
It...
Each game is dependent on what my...
My...
My best face is that.
Yeah.
So if you just give me the big free,
that the big is three games that you've spent on
on my mobile devices.
I'm mobile devices.
Yeah.
Well, that...
Sometimes it stays out.
Right.
Right.
I can do more cards.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
So my no-tulse at the top of the top is the biggest one.
Tiles survive.
Um...
Currently...
I actually have errors.
Go.
Yeah.
I find will actually tell you how much time you spend
on each of these, because at some point,
Apple realized that parents were worried about
fine addiction and they put in all these features
that would...
Look how addicted you are.
You know, we're actually...
We're actually monitoring the screen time
and like you can manage it.
And...
Yeah.
Um...
Yeah.
How will you monopoly go?
Okay.
Well, you do that with your door today.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It used to be finished.
I don't remember finished.
Finch was the self-career.
Oh, that one.
Right.
I didn't close that.
I remember it now, but I didn't close that as an actual game.
Right.
I've seen more like...
I don't know.
Sort of a...
Yeah.
Well, being...
Oh, I think to help organise
your different goals in a more sort of fun way.
Well, yes, stickers and you get...
You know, digital stickers are made
of sorts of little challenges.
And you set your own agendas
and then you tick off those things.
And like, even you get a reward
for tapping something a hundred times a day.
Right.
And it counts as your...
Well...
And then it kind of links socially to other people.
And I'm describing it, but I'm not just describing
what you showed me.
Um...
Actually, sorry, I never got into that.
Um...
To help you with that sort of thing.
But...
Did you still do that with your friend?
Finch.
No.
Sometimes...
I've backed off of it just because
it was less helpful for me than I needed it to be.
Right.
Um...
It became more about collecting the collections of...
Yes.
about the well-being.
Yeah.
And for me, I can do the well-being by...
You know, putting on some music
and going and doing the dishes.
Yeah.
Oh, well, what we've got now...
The O.C. Diases might be set upon that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Quite a bit.
Which is...
You actually gain stuff sent through the mouth
that you have the open eyes as with...
Yeah, it's a creative planer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That...
Um...
Also...
I think it's a little bit...
of...
Finch worked really well when I was over there.
Yeah.
Um...
Here...
Finch doesn't work as well because...
When I was over there, it was me planning my life alone by myself.
Yeah.
When you're sharing a life with someone
and all the self-care stuff is, you know,
in that wellness app is about helping reward yourself
for executive functions, skills.
When you're sharing that space,
it doesn't quite have the same impact.
Right.
And...
At the time that I was adjusting to make that
so that I could change...
What my goals were in everything
and process that I kind of just lost interest in it.
Yeah.
And then...
Oops, the daisy...
got really exciting.
Yeah.
Okay.
And it kind of...
That's where it kind of sort of planted it,
where it...
It probably could still use it, but...
Right.
Ask and ask you about not play guy.
Because...
What about it?
Just...
Is it similar to normal or play where you go around the board
your game people to high rent on properties that you are
when they land in your basket?
So...
To make it cooperative,
that kind of...
An effectively cooperative for a mobile game,
they've made it...
The cooperation is a little different.
Right.
You'll have other players' pieces on the board
and they land on...
One of the ones that you own
or that you've collected,
the nickname,
Ren.
That sort of thing.
Right.
The way it presents is a little different
than just a typical board game
and there's a little many games as well.
Right.
Actually, there's something I've noticed about mobile games
is the ones I've seen you play.
They love their little mini games.
They live in games and games.
Yeah.
There's a lot of people around you.
Yeah.
It must be it.
I mean...
Yeah.
I mean, like...
He should not be named.
It's like...
All right.
I might as well name him.
So name him before.
But then I love those.
Also some mobile games.
His favourite one is Pokemon Go.
I mean, I've...
I've asked him several times if he wants.
If he'll let me interview him about it,
but he never will.
And this is funny.
The stuff about him that goes on the internet.
They won't be...
He won't talk about Pokemon Go.
Because he feels he's not...
He's not as expert as everyone else.
That there are much begging to you for days about Pokemon Go.
So it comes with that.
Uh...
Yeah.
I look at it.
Like, I'm always learning something new.
I'm not an expert at anything.
Yeah.
I'm just like...
Yeah.
I had an experiencing.
Yeah.
So I gave the big...
The big one that I wanted to talk to you about
was task of life.
Because on the face of it,
when you start playing it,
it seems like it's just a real time strategy game.
Where you're just...
You're building up a little while me,
and you're building up units,
and then you're attacking,
or you're defending.
It's technically a tower defense game.
Right.
Okay.
Technically.
Yeah.
So...
And yet,
it hasn't...
It is a massive multiplayer online game at the same time.
As that, and has lots and lots.
It's a cooperative tower defense game.
Yeah.
Okay.
You benefit from forming online suits,
and...
Do we belong with each other?
Do we step back...
What is the canonical tower defense game?
What was the first tower defense game that you know?
Or can you describe what a tower defense game is?
Um...
So the base of a tower defense game is...
You have a home base.
You're trying to protect it.
You're trying to protect your base.
Okay.
And you build towers to help protect the troops from attacking.
Yeah.
Um...
Okay.
Yeah.
The base of all that's a tower defense game.
I mean, that sounds a bit like a real time strategy,
especially like Dawn of War,
which is probably one of my favorite ever real time strategy games.
Where they really would be strategic points that you could take,
and then the other team would come and take it.
When you take all the strategic points for long enough,
then you win the level.
Yeah.
Well, it's basically tiles to write.
Right.
Because you have your individual settlements
and your troops that you're growing
to defend against other chiefs,
the column chiefs.
Yeah.
So other chiefs could theoretically
they can attack your settlement
and try and take your resources.
But it doesn't benefit anyone
to take each other's resources,
other than if you just want power.
Yeah.
So you form alliances.
You join an alliance after a certain period.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you gain rewards and benefits from doing things
to help build the alliance.
Uh, yeah.
And the alliance is just like in,
say regular,
like in, you know,
that old game,
that was based on command of Conca,
where you would,
if you're playing multiplayer,
then you would team up with the other teams.
And therefore you just decide
you're not going to attack the other team.
You have teams not going to attack me,
but we're going to attack the third team.
Right.
So we're going up and building the team.
Basically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But because this is a massive multiplayer online game.
Yeah.
You have different each.
So you have settlement.
You have alliance.
Then you have state.
Yeah.
And then you have other states that compete against your state.
Yeah.
So it doesn't benefit anyone to go solely to protect and build your own,
uh, settlement.
Yeah.
Some people will alliance hop to bigger alliances to creating bigger rewards,
so that their settlement can grow faster.
But what they don't realize when they do that,
they're actually,
to some degree,
it can benefit if it's done strategically.
But if you are not for protecting your state as a whole,
and you're only per concerned about getting powered or run in alliance,
then your alliance can get knocked down heavily if you don't win the Arcadia,
which is when other states can come in and attack your state to try and take territory.
Okay.
Is the whole, well, is the whole game world homogeneous?
Or is there, like, some sort of variation that makes one state different from another,
even even if it's just aesthetic?
Or is it really just a homogeneous thing that every place looks the same as any of every other place?
I think it's pretty much all look the same from what, from what I can tell.
So the variation really comes from the people in it,
and how they play and who they align with.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
If the, like, if the top alliance is in a state,
or not, it's just able to communicate and interact with each other
and get along during Arcadia.
Yeah.
Then they can lose their power by not working together.
So hi, other more powerful alliance in other states coming in a winning territory.
So actually, this means that there's just an open text chat feature between different players
isn't that you can communicate with other players using free form.
There's a state chat, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in alliance there's a subdivision management.
How is it avoided that people don't just mess about and talk about random stuff
and keep on focus to what?
It's a game tool.
We're moderators come into play.
That's where leadership comes into play.
Yeah.
If you are a alliance leader or an R4,
Yeah.
Part of your job is to make certain, like part of that role.
Yeah.
Is to make certain that people are not doing inappropriate things in the chat,
or privately to individual players.
Yeah.
Like, if some dude comes and hits on me in my eyes,
I shut him down.
And then I report him to the alliance leader because the alliance leader in the R4s
or the ones that are supposed to see that.
Yeah.
Let's talk about the R1, R2, R3, R4, R5.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What does the names mean?
You come into an alliance.
Your invitation, your R0.
You have no ranking whatsoever.
Oh, rank.
Yes.
Yeah.
Rank 1 is your base.
You're there.
You're getting used to the game.
Whatever.
Rank 2 is you're getting a little more active in the game,
but you're not really interacting in chat.
You're not really doing anything for the alliance and state activities.
Yeah.
Then rank 3 is your relatively active.
You probably don't.
I think Eric said rank 3.
Yeah.
Rank 4 is your regularly talking in chat.
You're regularly working to figure out how to build and grow the alliance
and also support the state and the process.
Right.
That's where you're acting.
I'm at R5.
I am the head of the alliance.
Okay.
And I'm the head of the alliance because I don't care whether I'm the head of the alliance.
Most can take it over as long as they actually want to take care of the alliance
and put the alliance first.
You mean, you'd be happy.
As long as there's someone in that role who's competent,
you would be happy just playing around at a lower level.
Absolutely.
And the reason you've stepped up is because there's no one else who's going to step up
No, it was because there was a little light on a merge with another alliance.
Right.
And I needed somebody that wasn't going to care if they wanted to come back.
Right.
Because they wanted to stay.
Right.
If the alliance mode didn't go well and they weren't treated well,
they wanted to be able to come back to their alliance.
And I didn't care whether they came back or not.
So you have since completely just left the alliance.
Basically, how much of this, I mean, temporarily across the day,
how much time we do you have to spend on this and how does it work?
You can just join in whenever you want.
Or sometimes you just have to be there for certain events.
Well, okay, so it depends on how much you enjoy the game and the strategy of it.
For me, I like the strategy of seeing if I can grow enough in power organically
without alliance hopping and all the drama that comes with people that are trying to be political and trying.
Yeah.
There's a lot of backstabbing that goes on in these games because people with power.
Yeah.
I don't care about the power.
I just want to see how far I can make it.
Yeah.
Anyway, I became our five because I didn't care whether it was our five.
Yeah.
And plus you put in the time in the hours.
And this was as part of your, you know, like reward yourself for doing adult team things.
Like in between those things, you were just as you're not in there.
In between those things, you just, well, play better.
They're so play better that.
But all those little plain little bits added up to actually you are substantially part of.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Because I don't.
I mean, in the mornings, I might spend like when I'm just trying to wake up.
I might spend a little more time doing the daily's and just give you the amount of the way.
Yeah.
The ones that have to be done.
What a daily's exactly.
Um, so there's, to keep the game for me and completely boring because of it.
If it was just one thing over and over, you can do it.
There's, there's different features and there's rotating events.
And those events can require like daily activities to get the best rewards.
Right.
Every kind of thing is some kind of battle isn't it?
Or some kind of, sort of attack or some kind of setting up with some kind of things.
There's, there was a whole like role play thing.
Like when you first start the game, you do this whole like, I guess it's kind of role play.
Basically, tells you the story.
Yeah.
Um, of how you came to need to build a settlement.
Yeah.
And the storyline behind.
By the way, I love, I love the game banished where you just sent out.
You sent out from the kingdom into the middle of nowhere.
You have to set one in the village.
And that's not a mobile guy.
And that's just, that's it.
For that sort of thing, I just watch post crafting videos.
Okay.
Anyway, but there's actually, there's a bunch of different aspects to it.
So the daily's are, there's, I have to, I'm trying to think.
There's a lot of little bit of things.
You have to make certain that you are doing research.
You have to make certain that some sort of research is running.
And once you get high enough level, it can take days for step to go.
And you can earn speedups, but.
And part of being in alliances is you can get help from alliance members and you get rewarded for helping other alliance members.
So there's a whole lot of different game mechanics.
Yeah, there's a bunch of little tiny mechanics to.
But it's all strategic.
How often you check it.
When you check it.
Yes.
So it makes a lot of difference to be on that certain time when you.
Something is happening.
Yeah.
All of this is in real time.
By the way, this is.
Yeah.
Why?
Why I was maybe talking about real time strike.
It's happening in the real, you know, time is.
Yeah.
And I'm struggling.
Yeah.
People on different times zones too.
Yeah.
Because people in the US, I got people not in the US, in the alliance.
Yeah.
And that's part of where the.
How much, how much phone batteries is using?
What are you doing this?
I don't know.
If you have a newer phone, it doesn't really take a whole lot about it.
Yeah.
This phone it drains a little bit.
Yeah.
Because it's a little bit older.
What?
What you prefer the phone for this sort of thing?
I mean, there might be a console game or a PC game or something that does similar.
What you prefer?
For me personally.
This is a personal thing.
Yeah.
On my days where I am lower bandwidth, lower mobility.
Yeah.
I can do it on my phone right there.
Right.
So I'm just excited.
Because of the pain levels I deal with from the other Minnesota,
I can't sit in the chair for longer periods.
Right.
No matter how comfortable it is.
Yeah.
It's a big, a big comfy chair.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's amazing for the days that I'm not in a mess of Lara.
Yeah.
I can do it in bed if I'm in a day that I just can't get out of bed.
But I'm also not able to sleep.
Yeah.
So for people with lower bandwidth, lower spin levels, it's mobile games.
Yeah.
Help keep us from, you know.
It's like even if you have to shut down some part of what you're just daily function is.
Yeah.
It's like we can kind of compensate by keeping the brain going,
keeping what parts of you are still functioning,
keeping them going until such a time as you regain full function,
full energy levels.
Right.
It keeps my brain going.
Yeah.
It keeps my brain thriving instead of going into survival mode.
Yeah.
So,
tile survivors more entertaining,
but sometimes I just need to be able to put all my brain power into processing the strategy.
And that's where arrows go because it comes in the flow.
Right.
So arrows go is what I've seen of it is it's like a big maze.
And but you're dismantling the maze bit by bit.
And as you dismantle it,
it flies off in one of four directions.
And depending which direction it flies off,
it might hit another wall or it might fly off the edge.
And if it hits the wall, you lose a life kind of thing, you lose a drop of water.
You've got like three of them I saw.
Yeah.
If you manage to get dismantled the whole maze and it just flies off in all four directions,
bit by bit, then you don't lose those and you progress you in that section.
Right.
And actually that one was coming up with ads.
So actually this is a good point to ask you,
what do you think about ads in games?
I think ads in games keep game developers being able to pay their bills.
Yeah.
And it's like a low barrier to entry,
even if you can't afford a game,
you can play it,
you can get something out there.
And then if you really like it,
lots of them will have a land free option.
And you just pay subscription instead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For example, with a scrabble game,
I've got, I've played with them.
That's the one game I do plan in my book devices,
cool, worthy.
And ever I play that,
I try and play every single day.
And sometimes it's every other day.
And it's against other human players,
actually people I know,
and generally it's just my mum.
And that is unsupported,
but I just pay for them,
for most of my mum and for myself,
to have the version that you'd have to have.
And it doesn't cost that much.
And I don't know how to advertise game in language.
No.
Yeah.
Sometimes you just like a game.
Yeah.
I don't even know if this has an ad's free option on it.
I haven't looked at it.
It's one of those games where I just don't care,
whether I watch an ad to get through the next one
because I realize I'm not going to pay anything for it.
Like we're watching ads on Amazon Prime,
because there's a certain series that we're watching.
And after about the third year of advert,
we thought, tell what, let's just pay the pay,
wherever his name is,
that money to get just to not have to watch them every half hour,
or whenever they come up.
Yeah.
There is, there's just a bit of a dark pattern about.
I believe that some companies who do this
will deliberately show you annoying adverts.
They're not, they're not actually trying to advertise the product.
They're just trying to annoy you into buying the subscription
to get rid of the ads.
That's why I always go unpersonalized whenever possible.
So they're random and not targeted.
Exactly. I don't like targeted ads.
Yeah.
I don't like the fact that I looked for something
I'm Google.
Yeah.
And now I'm suddenly seeing ads for that thing.
I'm going to look for it.
You know, it's an invasion of privacy,
and I don't like it.
So while it's going targeted.
Yeah.
Manashi, this is something that worries me a bit about.
I like large language models.
Is that, you know, you've got the big players who probably have quite stringent policies,
but I think they're now smaller.
Companies selling it.
Large language models.
And they're not going to be as, they're not going to be as proper about how the data is used.
You know, they may be using it to train them models or not,
you know, maybe not train, but to help improve how them models interact.
But at the same time, they may be just,
eventually, they may be harvesting the data that they're learning,
that they're learning from the interactions between the person and the large language model.
Which that person, if they're not too discerning,
will not really realise that their privacy is not being completely respected.
Well, it's because people don't read through the TOS.
The terms, sir.
They share that in the privacy and policy in the TOS and nobody ever reads it.
Yeah.
Basically, I think it's a replay of social media.
If you're not paying, then you're the product.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think that that's going to happen with large language models.
Because they really, because, you know, resources at a time,
like they cost, I've run them on my own machine,
and I've seen how inferior it is, even running on a really powerful machine,
just how crack that is compared to what a cloud-based one will do.
The problem is, is that a cloud-based one takes up data centers.
Yeah.
Which is destroying the environment.
Yeah.
And it's a fine night.
It's a fine night.
Yeah.
It's a fine night resource.
And it's going to, you know, that resource is going to become more increasingly finite,
and including the ability to produce that number of electronic parts.
So, you know, the ways the money going to come from is going to come from.
Yes, we'll provide these resources, but we'll provide them.
You're not going to pay for them, so we'll provide them to people.
If you're going to want something in return, and that's going to be heavier information.
Yeah, having information or even thinking of a dark part,
actually influencing those people to think and behave in ways we want them to.
Yeah.
And perhaps we shouldn't go too far down that route, talking about that.
But that's why ethical and use is important.
That's why then studying it.
Researching it and actively trying to be a part of ethical training.
Yeah.
So, I was trying to relate this back to the gaming side of things.
So, what I was thinking was, you know, if our games are going to become,
like maybe role playstyle games are going to be, have you played anywhere?
They have started to use large language models as a part of the role playing experience.
Second line.
Second line for the middle of it.
Right.
Okay.
So, how is that?
For my RP system that I'm building, there's going to be LLM chat box.
Right.
It allows anyone on any time to be able to interact and role play as a community,
even if other people are not online at the same time.
Yeah.
So, I don't think so.
So, what would be nice to be in the game where you have characters that you could step out
in the game, could you?
Like, in the early days when you're at me were on second life.
That's what I'm trying to create.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're playing this card game called, what was the card game called?
Handed fur.
Where you have four players.
But if you step away from the game, just the robot takes over your game.
So, that means that people can come in and out of the game.
That's, I think, what you have thought of is having a role-playing system where the characters
in the game are real people, but they can step away and that character will continue behaving like that person.
Yeah.
The character.
Yeah.
The character that I played though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The avatar that I play is still my app art will be all on when I'm on.
Yeah.
However, if I'm on and I'm interacting in the community that has the RP in it.
Yeah.
I can interact with bots.
Yeah.
Who will then be like the NPCs?
Yeah.
Don't play a catch.
So, let's say, a kosher comes on and she's doing her part of the world.
They stuff.
And she encounters something that my character interacted with.
The NPC that is there will relate the information that, like, listen to the chat.
Yeah.
And be like, oh, well, hell's Beth was on and she did XYZ and that impacted this here.
So, do you need to do this?
Well, yeah.
We sort of did that in a little way.
Because we had these two squirrels.
Was it Ricky and Pauline?
That was it.
And these squirrels would, like, talk.
They would just be chatting to each other and they would be chatting to whoever came near
them.
Yeah.
And then they would say, oh, yeah.
I was talking to this, like, I was talking to Elspath earlier.
Tell Elspath what we had said to Pauline or Pauline.
It's said to Ricky and yeah, it, like, Chinese was just a little bit.
But I think that's the whole, you know, that's what makes it real.
And that makes it possible to role play because you create an element of potential miscommunication.
Yeah.
The requires communication.
Yeah.
So Elspath goes into the botany dome and is tending to the plants of everything in there.
She trips over something and phrase the plug to the communicator.
The mechanic then needs to come on when the mechanic gets on.
The mechanic is going to find out that something needs to be repaired.
So it's an organic integration to activities that happened when somebody wasn't on.
But the NPCs communicate that information.
Like, oh, you know,
I'm sure there are people that games studios doing this.
This is quite challenging, but in the way I think not going,
it's going to be hard to get high fidelity of this, but I think you can get elements of this certainly.
Yeah.
Well, I can't really go with too much of the dynamics of it because people will steal ideas.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, I can be integrated into.
Well, I mean, how did we do that?
Just with the squirrels.
It was just, um, we had, um, what's called an LSL script.
And, you know, that just commute has an API key in that communicator, um,
safe anthropic lord in the back end using API credits.
And you just, you give it, you give the character a certain personality prompt.
So it understands who it is.
And you give it the ability to store its memories and say,
process server in between.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, none of this is like groundbreaking or, you know, none of this is confidential or proprietary.
No, no, no.
It's fine.
They call it R.A. Jean.
I forget what that's sensible, but it means that a large language model has access to more information than what it just knows.
It has access to background.
It might, it had it, so these squirrels, um, they knew any of the characters that we created with no stuff about the role plan.
Backgrounds of it when they heard so key words they would look up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's why I'm developing our piece system before I integrate the NPCs because the NPCs are also known variable on how they can interact.
Right.
So it becomes proprietary is the system itself.
Yeah.
And not the interaction with the NPCs.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Squirrels.
Squirrels.
How do you relate the sort of gaming that you're doing second life or final fantasy 14 to the kind that you're doing on the mobile phone?
I mean, is it a completely different nature?
For example, you've told me that you don't like playing second life on the mobile device.
That you can't really do any of the things that you actually like doing on it.
I mean, they've been pretty, they've done really well with the mobile device.
But for somebody who gets their enjoyment out of the creation and the decoration and all that,
not so much the dressing-up and socialization and all that,
I mean, I do get social interaction on the second life, quite a bit.
But my enjoyment is the creation and storytelling process.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm playing sailor Astha, which is kind of based on D&D rules.
Which is a computer game on PC.
And actually the finalist thing I like is just making what you call the dungeons,
but they might be a town or a waste, you know, wilderness or whatever.
But you're creating the actual, you're setting up the enemies and you're setting up the characters.
And then after you've done that, you can play through it.
Yeah.
I like creating the role-pleases.
Yeah.
I like creating the interactions.
I like creating an experience.
That other users can participate in interact with.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
Like a month was I got you and your friends were creating a spice station.
And we get stuck because we don't have the R&P system.
Anyway, I'm not going to go into the details on that part of it.
All right.
That's still part of, you know.
Yeah, I kind of.
But having the experience and having the interactivity and having the creators that make things that work.
In a way that makes it feel like you're actually replicating real life movements and actions and interactions and whatnot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Someone just created an a.o. that allows you to do all sorts of crazy wild.
And you're back.
I was an animation I brought.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've talked about that before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my niche is not the, some of the more, well, I guess what I'm doing is more complicated.
But it's definitely for more advanced.
I think what you've talked about.
What you've talked about with me is like combining that with literary stuff.
So actually grand storytelling.
Yep.
You know, actual, you know, artistic novel quality storytelling.
Yep.
Yeah.
That's a whole other direction for that.
I think we've gone on the grand tour from executive function to mobile games to AIN,
and possibilities of the democratizing creating role-playing.
And that role-playing systems.
I think it, I think we better leave it there.
So thanks very much for telling us about all of this.
Thanks for listening to my rambles.
Okay.
All right.
Good morning. Good evening. Good night.
Where are you off?
Happy times, um.
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