Episode: 4429
Title: HPR4429: Handcrafting and Bartering discussion w. Elsbeth
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr4429/hpr4429.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-26 00:37:59

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This is Hacker Public Radio episode 4,429 for Thursday the 24th of July 2025.
Today's show is entitled Handcrafting and Bartering Discussion W.
Ellsbeth, he is hosted by Ellsbeth and is about 43 minutes long.
It carries an explicit flag.
The summary is, Ellsbeth discusses how to make money as a crafter and how the barter and
trade system might be better.
Hi, this is Ellsbeth.
I am going to talk to you a bit today about crocheting handcrafted items and my enjoyment
of that as a hobby and dipping my toe into actually selling on sites online to maybe
make a little money off of what I'm producing.
I have obsessively watched TikTok videos of crafting and Facebook Reels and Instagram
Reels just because I've been wanting to do something with my hands and my grandma taught
me how to crochet like decades ago.
I kind of don't want to admit how long ago but I was a baby when I started learning how
to crochet and I would watch these videos and I'm like, why can't I do this?
So I started getting more serious about crocheting as a hobby just to give my hands something
to do because I found that it's really beneficial for me with having the ADHD part of ADHD
when I'm on a call with someone or if I'm watching a show or something, I find that I process
things better when I'm actually doing something with my hands.
So I started just making granny squares.
Granny squares are basically just a crocheted square in like varying different stitches.
They ultimately wind up just being a square and often people will make quilts out of
them so they'll make a bunch of squares and then connect them all together.
So I started just making granny squares and then I got to thinking I've already made
three sets total.
One of them's in my hair.
I will find something and this is something that I never thought that I could do.
I don't know why.
But I was sitting there going, why can't I?
I can do little like no face videos of me crocheting and throw them on TikTok and I have
a link to my Etsy page.
That's how a lot of people get their business for handicrafts like this.
This is a granny square.
So it's basically it starts out with just a small little square where there's only four
quarters and this one does have holes in it but you can make them so that they aren't
fully.
This is more for a market bag originally to like I've got groceries you know vegetables
and stuff like that.
But this particular one I just kept going until it was the size of the market bag that
I wanted folded it into a diagonal and then folded up the quarters and stitched it together
so it became a bag.
A granny square is typically more like maybe 11 rows where you start with the center,
but they call like a magic circle and then you stitch around you do three double crochets.
That's kind of complicated to explain just while talking but you do three double crochets
and then you do three single crochets and then do a double crochet into the corner.
It makes a corner so it becomes a little square so it's actually pretty cool.
In the old days and we're talking like way back in the day a granny square could make
a pretty quick warm quilt.
So you would stitch them together, not in crochet but I have quilted a quilt before with
a sewing machine.
So I'm kind of multi buried task and whatnot as far as candy crafts I can't get.
I have been sewing since I was a little girl when I was in like fourth or fifth grade.
I got kind of obsessed with home economics which was hot back then and I really enjoyed
the sewing aspect of it of a creating a garment and whatnot.
It kind of took a back seat as far as a craft was concerned for quite some time mostly
because I was you know as a teenager I was traveling the world and then when I became
an adult my kids is step grandma and her husband which was their grandpa owned a auto
upholstery trim shop and she taught all of us how to sew from a professional standpoint
how to make my own patterns and my daughter really took off on that but we can make our
own patterns we can make the dress mannequins for individual.
We also know how to do like the auto upholstery like stitching that on and stuff like that
but that takes a little more than just sewing you have to have somebody that knows how to
create the patterns from the actual automobile itself like whether it be you know redoing
a steering wheel or the cushions on the seat so on and so forth and I wound up being more
interested in the sewing than the actual piece in it together part.
So she was pretty amazing at teaching us how to sew and why but it was hands on I would
have never learned if I had gone to some sort of class because I'm a very hands on learner.
So since then I've made my own clothes I've made clothes for other people I've made quilts
and baby blankets and stuff like that once you know how to sew you can pretty much make
anything a lot of the reasons that I did sew was because I wanted something that I couldn't
get in a store and I could get the material at a price that wasn't much different than
buying it at a store that being said.
Sewing is expensive is not cheap and making clothes for yourself or other people unless
you just shop around and buy the deals before you have the plan for the pattern and have
the stock already in hand it's not really economical it is one of the reasons that clothing
stores are clothing places like Walmart where they have clothes and target where they have
clothes which is cheaper here in the US is usually the cheapest way to get clothes if you're
not going to the thrift store they're mass turning out the same product so they can afford
to charge less for the product at the risk of offending people the fact that most of it
is manufactured in countries that are paid peanuts for the work that they do.
The reality is is the fashion industry regardless of what spectrum of price it is on is a
blight on society.
There's other people that have stood up and said things about it there are some amazing
designers that they thrive on the fact that they try to be ethically sourced does that
always happen I don't know but yeah that's not my expertise I prefer to just enjoy the
process of creating if you are in this for instant gratification you have to learn the
process whether it be how to thread and maintain a sewing machine and manage when you have
threads break or learning the different stitches and how to put them together and make it cohesive
you have to be able to count I know that sounds kind of silly that you have to be able to
count because you have to know how to measure things you have to know and I'm talking
basic counting I'm not talking like you know abstract mathematics or anything like that.
When it comes to crocheting most patterns you have to have an exact count so there's
going to be an exact amount of stitches that goes around this circle headband or hair tie
and you have to have the exact same stitch unless the stitch is a pattern stitch where
you're switching up so that requires like the number one thing you would need is enough patience
but once you learn the stitches and once you know how many stitches that you need something like
this is super fast a ponytail holder like the elastic ponytail holder that I crocheted around
and every single stitch is a in the US I think it's called a double crochet the US and the UK
have different terminologies for their stitches but it's the same stitch so it's a double crochet
or a triple crochet depending on where you're at and that's all it is like 99.9 percent of this
hair tie being crocheted to make a cute little purple roughly type headband is double crochets
as long as you know the stitches and you know how to count how much you need around this
and I'm gonna be honest I haven't counted these because this particular type of stitching is super
easy I've made three sets of these and three quarters of another one of the first of a set
I probably spent about two and a half hours max a pair of these will sell for about five dollars
plus shipping because they're handmade and they're good quality made too it depends on what the yarn
and what the quality of the yarn is I'm going to be honest these ones here are relatively cheap
cost but they'll last for a very long time but the big thing that most creators regardless of
whether they're crocheting or whether they're making quilts or whatever you know anything on
Etsy most creators will under price their stuff and then you'll have people that over
well I don't even want to say they over price it they price for the amount of time it takes them to
make it so when I say that this will sell for five dollars between the cost of my time so it's
about ten minutes well this type was my first one and it took me about twenty minutes because I
just had to get used to it but I turned the rest out in about ten minutes so this would be about
ten minutes now that I'm used to it to make two so the total material for two of these is probably
about a dollar and a half that's being on the generous side because it depends on what the
material is and most people don't want different prices per material that being said if I had my
more expensive yarn I would charge more but for these my profit margin is about four dollars for
this so ten minutes that takes ten minutes I make a profit of four dollars there's six ten
minutes in an hour so four times six that's twenty four dollars an hour that would be my profit
for an hour but I would have to make six sets in an hour unfortunately in crocheting and in the
handicraft world you can't charge per hour people don't appreciate that they want to lump some
that's going to go into and like even even if it took me 50 hours to do a quilt if I charged
three hundred dollars for that quilt like you know even just a twin or full size quilt a decent
size quilt people don't want to spend the amount of money that it would cost for both the materials
and the time and effort most people that do handicrafts are crafting at a loss or doing small
things like this that actually create some sort of profit and anywhere you go any these sort of
handicraft site will you'll find you you'll see that's what happens if there wouldn't be sites
like Etsy or eBay or even the handicrafts on Amazon there wouldn't be sites like that if people
weren't able to make a living off of it now anymore to be able to get the attention because of the
market saturation that can happen you really have to have social media and be showing what your
products are not so much with products but I have done social media stuff when I was doing health
and fitness training and I was a yoga instructor I would do videos of myself doing workouts that
were tangible for people that were struggling to manage their weight because of health and physical
challenges so I would do videos and show people how they can do it without hurting themselves
and how to build their balance and what not to be able to build up to being able to do more
active things even just walking I think the people that can actually be engaging on their social
media are the ones that will actually get more success now that's not to say that you can't create
an Etsy store by yourself without having any social media and people see the quality of it and
the value of it and are successful but those people usually film videos and have some sort of
advertising in their stores that shows what the value of their product is I think I just think
social media actually makes it easier it is actually probably the only thing that would compete with
corporate items you know corporate stores like big box stores like Walmart and Target and
any store like that where you can get cheaper products having social media shows people what it's
like to you know back back in the day when I was grown up used to be able to like go buy a road stand
and pick up some fruits and veg during seasons and people would you know would often have handy
crafts and stuff there you just had to happen across them to be able to find them this is basically
the digital equivalent of that I think that people are seeking to to transition more away from corporate
purchases as a whole especially our young folk they're starting to look at the value of buying
each other's skills and talents you know or purchasing from skills and talents rather than just
going to a store and buying it you know conventions you know sci-fi fantasy conventions and stuff
like that it's huge on the whole dealer's room is basically as far as I know every sci-fi fantasy
convention that I've ever been to has had a dealer's room where people can sell their handy
crafts and whatnot or sci-fi fantasy like when I was looking at the convention my daughter went
to recently the dealers room there were people that had 3d printed items absolutely it could be
anything it could be making buttons with you know geeky phrases and whatnot there's a whole variety
I make things that you would find in a bookstore in real life for second life so it's basically
the same concept as creating what I would like to see in a bookstore and what others might see in
a bookstore and including books we do it the legal way so it's all public domain but
that book create you know it had to have a mesh and it had to be something that people would
actually want to look at and see I have science figurines like I don't know I have a hedgehog that
has science facts about hedgehogs and I have elephants and whatnot and it gives people
something tangible and by tangible I mean something physically that you can purchase in
second life that you can interact with and learn something from and you can display it so
that other people that come by can see what you have and it becomes almost like a collectible if
you will kind of like Funko Pop I think that the trade and barter system is absolutely something
that our society needs to go back to because people find value in creating something and even if
they're like AI assisted or robot assisted creations people are going to want to have some sort
of bartering and trade they're going to want to have some element of ownership to
sharing their interests whether it be you know recently I was looking at the AI pets where you
know I have this little robot dog that can interact with you and whatnot that that's the same
concept as people want to have something that evokes some sort of happy emotion or happy memory
I would be absolutely thrilled to trade and create a barter system if I were to make you know
let's say somebody wanted to have a whole specialty made designed hair tie thing for their wedding
okay I'm using that as an example because I could do a barter system with them let's say they
happen to be somebody that was more talented than I am at sewing I could trade them an item
that I wanted or needed for the product that I have created money has never been the primary
focus of the barter and trade system the barter and trade system was about you have something that
I can use or want and I have something that you can use or want and we don't need money to trade
I think that that is very much the way it probably was in the past you know because I don't have
any like specific thoughts off the top of my head that I examples that I can can refer to other
the Bible because they do talk about trading and what not in the Bible and the in fact
going to be perfectly honest that if you read the translation the right way there is no need for
money money is all about someone else controlling your life that's a very dumb down simplified way
of putting it so I'm not saying that we can like the there's an addiction to instant gratification
in our society and that is highly revolved around money the more money you have the more you
can get what you want with the handicraft system you're not getting money I have experienced
healthy buttering systems and then the prejudicial and most people don't like that word but it's
a matter of fact if when I was living in West Africa now understand that this is back in the late
89 through the early 90s so through 93 the butter system was mandatory there now if you wanted
to go the market and pick up some rice you had to go in with the knowledge of what rice was
actually worked if you didn't know you were going to get ripped off especially someone like me who
didn't quite look like the people that were in the market so they would see this you know white
teenage girl come in speaking you know pretty broken French early on trying to make a deal
having been taught that you aren't supposed to accept the first price I'm going to say there's
a catch 22 you can get screwed over with the barter and trade system but there's also an immensely
beautiful social interaction that comes with it as well one of the things that I got out of it
that could have been negative was that because I was taught not to take the first deal it created
a dialogue between myself and the people that were at the market where they go oh she's been taught
she knows that that's not the price that it's worth or that's too much or you know we're just
trying to get one over on her and you know that that can happen you know but I think it's a matter of
knowing your audience always you know do you can you understand how to communicate with the
individual that you're wanting to trade with you know when I'm talking about the more modern
version of doing it on Etsy and which is a monetary thing but even if there was a barter system
on Etsy I would have to know what my item is worth and what the item that I'm trying to get is worth
and it comes down to just communicating you know if I say for instance I've got this pair of head
bands and I'm selling them for five dollars in a barter and trade system because I am making a
profit off of this they could say well what about three dollars no no I can't get rid of them from
three dollars that that's not going to be worth it to me okay how about three fifty well okay I
can come down to four seventy five I'll give you twenty five cents off and they're like okay okay
they're they're they're realizing that they have a little wiggle room that they're they're making a
profit well I really really just want it for three seventy five like that's that's the highest
I can go and I'm like well that that doesn't give me a whole lot to work with here you know I
know what my item is worth and I know what time I put into it okay okay okay I'll come up to four
dollars okay tell you what I'll give you a deal I'll give it to you for four fifty and it's sold
and then they have the option to walk away or accept it now it's the same thing whether you're
using money or whether you're using drop of cakes this is a nice box of the drop of cakes here I'll
trade you drop of cakes are these ridiculously good tea cakes that have well different different
different kind of jellies inside of them like kind of a the original I think has yeah the original
has orange but I did recently just get get some raspberry ones which I'm really looking forward to
but they're they're like a tea cake that you you it's a little snack to have with your tea or
coffee and they're from the UK and I have a hard time getting here in the US so I'm very grateful for
mine but you know if I want to trade a box of drop of cakes for you know a set of two hand
crocheted hair ties what's the worth of the package of drop of cakes and what's the worth
of the time and energy I put into this so theoretically I could say well maybe I could do
a set for one small pack I could trade that but this might be worth more than this so maybe I
would have to if I wanted this pack of two drop of cakes I might have to do two sets and they could
say well do I want to or do I just want the one yeah it's all about what the value is and it could
be I do a drop of cake and say you know type of coffee or something I you trying to come up with
something off the top of my head but you know value can come in different quantities even in a
barter system and trade system I'm sorry I keep out really hard on that so most people that do
like donation wear that would be more akin to barter and trade you see the value of what I have
so you're going to donate for using it but unfortunately the open source system is basically
kind of like I'm putting all my work and effort in for no recompense so I'm not getting
appreciated for my value now if you were getting something in return like say I am getting
the equivalent to my rent paid for a the use of this you know software then it becomes a more
reasonable value because of the time and effort put into the actual coding of it so I don't feel
personally this is why I'm not well I can very much appreciate open source I don't know that it
is actually the best use of ethical coding I understand why they want things open source I get it
you put how many hours into developing some form of software how many months how many years to
develop a quality product and somebody could donate you can put a donate button they might donate
but usually people aren't so where is your value then you have to really really be passionate about
a project to just give it away when it comes to open source if you are getting paid to develop
code your code becomes proprietary towards the company that's paying you you have to significantly
change it enough so that it does not represent that proprietary code for it to actually be open so
I mean get have is a repository of code that you can go to and you know some of it can be private
but a lot of it's public so you can just go in and check that code and see if that code actually
works for the project then you can just copy and paste it into your code and make the modifications
you need to create what you want I guess I'm having a hard time
viewing it as something that is actually worth one's time and effort unless it's just unless you're
just super high for fixated and are willing to give up your time and energy for it whereas with
me it's about bandwidth I get something tangible out of crocheting these items because it helps my
brain and instead of courting a bunch of items that I've made that I'm going to offer them up for
sale to those that might actually want to use them I guess I can understand that if you have a
hobby and your hobby is coding then you might want to have some of that code be something that you
are willing to just share with those that might actually you know make their life easier and I can
see how new new programmers might actually benefit from it but I would really have to be something
that you are really passionate about to just give away I think I understand that someone might
actually want to share what they created but I'm not certain that I completely understand why they
would share something that they created for no recompense I could see how if I can see how if
somebody was like just wanting to put themselves out there and actually that that actually makes
perfect sense is that you would potentially put stuff out there in code to have it be seen to
show what you can do like a portfolio like an artist portfolio but I think ultimately it's kind
of like a free gift or a sample in a food market and it's a really really expensive free gift
time wise so you have to really love what you're doing to be able to do it and I can
assure you most programmers aren't passionate enough about they're more concerned about the paycheck
I mean okay so if you were to look at like scripting like in second life you can do
something similar in the sense that you write a script you don't charge a whole lot for it
because it's something that a lot of people would be interested in and over time a lot of people
or purchase you'll eventually more than make up for the time that you put into creating that script
but it's not full on coding and I'm not certain that I could process that fully as
from a software standpoint other than just freelancing and I think that's what freelancing
is about is having the freedom to be able to write what you want I think bug bounding is an
excellent way to get your code out there and get something some sort of recompense for it
I think that's actually pretty pretty awesome to be honest I think that there's a little bit of
you really have to know that you're on a place because you can't guarantee that the person is
going to pay out even if they're offering it escrow when you put when you go to buy a house you put
your deposit in escrow because there are potential things that would keep the house from going through
so you will get your money back if you're not able to buy the house for a justifiable reason
in this sense if there is an escrow for the bounty where the person will get paid out if they're
able to find the bug then then I think that that's a great idea I think that it is an interesting
way for somebody who likes code I think a bug bounty would be very fascinating as somebody who
likes to find problems you know issues so somebody that likes the hunt I think it's a great idea
underget her welcome to get coin we help thousands of people grow their open source ecosystems
and distribute millions of funding now we want to help you and your community decide how to fund
your shared needs I think a lot of it is you just have to first off there's the whole get coin
bit coin correlation but if you go to get hub there is a get coin area in there
developers have always been the heart of the get coin ecosystem ever since our
beginning funding open source software we welcome contributions to our projects and would love
to support your project so it's basically a way of kind of getting some dot you know getting some
credit like monetary credit but you have to specifically be working on something that someone else
wants so I mean I see that there is potentially a benefit to it but there's also the it's only
there's only so many resources to go around because it's based on who donates to it hold on I want
to do a quick search here okay so that takes you back to the bug bounty thing so maybe okay here
we go is it possible to make a living through bug bounty programs the best bug hunters make more
money on bounties than they could earn through full-time employment if you have an aptitude and
tenacity develop your skills so that you can become one of the best so basically you have to find
the bug and provide the solution I don't think that's a pretty decent salary for I mean low end
60,000 a year if that's your full-time thing is finding bugs and offering solutions I think it
has a lot to do with the whole trying seeing the world kind of shift away from the almighty dollar
when you see countries currency being devalued then it becomes in a digital world it becomes a little
more intriguing to possibly consider a digital currency but ultimately it all boils down to the
same thing it's it's literally just having a monetary value or something so it's either controlled
by the people that run the Bitcoin or the Ethereum or Stellarium or you know whatever or it's the
countries that are basing it off the gold standard which isn't even really valid anymore so
I absolutely believe that without money as a world culture and society we would be far better off
but then it would come down to the social credit system to some degree because people are going
to control it to some some way shape or form you know until we can completely take humans out
of the equation of monetary value or value of effort creativity whatever we're going to be stuck in
that same rabbit hole back when Bitcoin was Bitcoin mining was becoming a thing I had I don't
even know honestly don't even remember how much I had but I had enough that it would have been
worth something today and at the time I'm like oh it never the Bitcoin never really developed into
anything you know tangible for me to even bother being concerned about whether that hard drive
with that information disappeared and by the time I realized that it was a tangible thing I'm
like oh where's that hard drive because I used to keep all my hard drives and I was several moves
away from that point in time when I decided that that hard drive just wasn't any value and
it's in a landfill somewhere so someone somewhere if they're smart enough and know how to
figure out where it is would find a hard drive somewhere that had some value to it I'm not certain
how much today but I imagine it was something worthwhile so but I guess I just other than just
getting my basic necessities and living life in a way that is comfortable without being
excessive I just don't hold too much hard tack to money other than it getting me the life that I
need and I'm not talking like you know the one percent or even the not even really middle class
really you know just just comfortable I'd like to have some land had to used to be much better
than what it is now I understand that there is a level of they have to have some sort of overhead
and cost themselves but they have also become a little bit greedy Etsy has become too commercialized
they've kind of lost focus how Etsy as a company has come to be to try and cover basically to
cover their assets they have become less in favor of the creator and more in favor of the seller
and I do understand that to some degree but the buyer can very easily say I didn't receive this
product even though they have and even if you have the documentation that it just throws you into a
whole loop of having to verify and produce documentation and if you're running even a side
business like this little misman I don't think so I will be out there in a moment she's protesting
the whole commercialization of Etsy ultimately I think that you have to have some business sense
and just some ethical sense to be able to successfully market your skill set and that that takes time
I am creating an Etsy shop to list my hair ties that I crochet but I had to be unique with the name
on it because I also want to sell digital art as well so I had to come up with I came up with a name
that actually is available so I'm calling it Elizabeth's ephemera I love the word ephemera and it
doesn't tie me down to just crocheting they make you put an item in first so I have to do something I
have to take a picture of the products and list it and also requires me actually having some sort of
decent lighting and backdrop I have to get a light box for this type of stuff if I'm successful
definitely have to use a little more detailed better quality pictures and whatnot
for now I am content with just taking a relatively decent picture and posting it
that I should probably take and put all three of them now I have to add the photos
this is a process you got to take the pictures then you've got to send it to yourself
I take the pictures on my phone and then I email it to myself so that I can put it on the computer
because it's a whole lot easier that way okay so let's go let's call this lavender sparkle
we have to put it in a description hand-priced hair tie in lavender sparkle yarn slash bowl
durable and ready to where I'm going to put this is for five dollars oh see that's
something that I didn't factor in they take 93 cents as he takes 93 cents out of the five dollars
yeah that's one of the reasons why I have an issue with them and they used to be they used to
take less fees but they've increased it oh wow I need to find out how much these way I have a
food scale somewhere if I can find it how where did it go I am I'm very curious now how much
mommy's you can chill out for a second I am very curious how much they lay though point
for point four ounces so I can just do one ounce so that it's very actually that's really good
because it's going to cost next to nothing and shipping maybe shipping cost interesting they're
estimating the shipping might be about four point fourteen dollars okay I have my first listing
yeah a pair for five dollars so you pick the category that's under this is going to be under arts
and collectibles slash fiber art slash crochet and then you have to choose whether it's a physical
or digital item and then who made it so it's either I did a member of my shop another company or
person so I did it's a finished product not a supplier tool it is currently made in the last five
years it's made from scratch you have to choose whether it's an assemble from purchase parts
an item that my shop alters a curated set of purchase goods or natural materials this is a hand
I use tan held or guided tools not computerized or AI the title is crochet hair tie
crunchy in light purple at a picture and I'm also showing the way it looks
but in a different color let's see description and crocheted hair tie slash scrunchy and in
the light purple acrylic yarn it's slash wool ready to wear lasting tones onto the one
primary color purple with I'm going to put those in crochet hair
hair tie scrunchy this is the tags so people can search it and find this um
drafted uh it's another word for a hair time off that's good enough materials
real look yarn and about going to select a profile item weight is 0.5 ounces
this is the length with the height returned an exchange policy I'm going to do a manual renewal
and I'm not going to do a automatic renewal because I'm not big enough yet and that's it it's listed
you just go on to the next and keep listing the new ones I have three finished products
by the way okay to set up the shop you have to do a whole biometric screening and prove your
ID and and all that stuff to verify that you are actually who do you say you are so that
you're not just using someone else's bank account or something like that to pay for the startup
cost which is it's a nominal $29 fee you have a way of getting that money back after six months
and they do give you some advertising credits as well for it so I mean it's more than that they
have some benefits to you spending that money up front it's basically for the maintenance and
getting everything set up on your platform and it is optional but it it gives you it charges you
$10 a month if you don't choose that option so I'm saving money in the long run thank you for
listening to this podcast I hope you got some enjoyment out of it and look forward to
making them in one soon you have been listening to Hacker Public Radio at Hacker Public Radio does
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