Episode: 1382
Title: HPR1382: Interview with Dave Hingley
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1382/hpr1382.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-18 00:34:25

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music
So, come on, who are you first of all?
My name's Dave Hingley, I'm half a titan in your bunker.
Cool.
So, what are you going to talk to HPR about today?
I'm going to talk to you about why I hate rings and why I love it.
Oh, love hate.
I have a hate love hate, I love the idea of open source.
I love the idea that freedom drives software.
I hate the idea that people say you must always use this one tool and this one tool only.
I think that stuff is creativity innovation.
However, if it works, they've got a valid point.
We just know an outcome.
So, sorry, for the benefit of the listening community, what is outcome?
Outcamp is an open source, feed culture, unconference where people pitch up and just give tools.
Okay.
It's the meat potatoes and what it's there for.
I defy anyone who isn't remotely techy or curious about how the world works.
I defy them to watch one and I don't think I could ever do something like that.
I can give tools.
Wouldn't that be great?
The notion of outcamp is not necessarily defined to one thing, but anyone can make an outcamp.
The definitive outcome of outcamp, as you might say, is the one in Liverpool.
The one where I do a bunch of UK podcasts and legal examples.
Okay.
So, I spent six months working on a presentation for what was your presentation?
The presentation was on creation and animation using open source software.
So, I spent six months struggling through software repositories trying to find software that's stable and works.
Trying to find software that does what it's supposed to do and where it doesn't write patches and fixes to make it work.
And, you know, a lot of work goes into just getting some information to present.
So, imagine my disappointment having spent the last week rehearsing on the same car every day on the way to work.
Having gone through it and not before in the hotel room, imagine a disappointment that was to find that
when I hooked my laptop to the projector, it was nothing, nothing.
Imagine how that felt when Mike's laptop was connected and, again, nothing.
Imagine how a noise album of the tech guy goes, oh, well, that's just a thing.
That's just a thing, is it?
So, hard way to decide not what is just a thing.
I mean, the thing is, if you're telling me that open source software is as good as closed source software,
then this conversation, this drive here isn't happening because it works perfectly.
I get my presentation done and the 13 people that went to see it, you know, they went away,
knowing a little bit more about what I'm doing and potentially finding new open source tools.
The fact is it didn't work and those people went away, not knowing what we're talking about, not knowing about the tools,
and non-noiser.
So, you know, the notion of work, was it learn, work, play?
The learn, learn, teach, and learn, teach, and play.
It's the AE Hoss of Ubuntu or Free Software.
It's not being met there. Where state is state?
It's a tagline for old companies.
Yeah, yeah.
So, Joe, I'm disappointed because I feel like I've let down the people that have turned up and actually voted
because their feet have turned up to this room.
There are issues with campfire management, which are both well-setting bug reports that you're on at some point,
but during the day when that thing is not the time.
So, yeah, I was annoyed, I was annoyed, I was angry, and the first thing is,
why do I keep going back to this stuff?
Why am I using this system?
Why do I just get an Apple Mac?
Although you might say, Apple Mac drives idiots, maybe, or at least they spend way more on computers,
and they move opponents than they need to.
They could possibly legitimately say, I just plug it in, it just works.
Okay. Can I point out that the projectors in question have BDA connectors?
That's very true.
And in that situation, the Apple Mac couldn't just plug it in at work,
and that's a plug in a battery, and then plugged that into the adapter,
and then it would just work, but carry off.
Well, okay. Maybe, okay.
Not Apple Mac, but I've had to use the Windows XP machine.
Dev, Dev, you know, or a Windows 8 tablet or whatever.
Yeah.
I mean, I think Windows 8 is a terrible operating system,
and you'd have to pay me cash to use it.
I use it on other people's laptops, and I'm thinking,
is this is not a way to run an email application?
No.
So, yeah.
I don't want to be a hater.
I don't want to get into that sort of categorizing new users by their OS,
because we already have that in the free source, a free open source community.
And that's kind of bad.
But let the Apple Mac and the Windows voice square off,
and we're whistling the little modern hours at each other.
We should be better than that, and we should be better than them.
And our software should be better than them.
It should, you know, if we're all about ideals,
if we're all about making things work, it should work.
I mean, this morning, which is the second day of our camp,
log camp planning on for two days,
it's two days of talks, it isn't.
What it is, is an afternoon, it's a morning,
and a bit of an afternoon of the first day of a talk,
and about four hours on the morning of talks.
So, out of two days, out of 16 hours,
you've probably got eight of talks.
And so, we went in early,
and we tested the laptop,
and we tested throughout the rest of the Saturday,
just getting more and more frustrated,
nothing was happening, and it's just a thing about me.
Anyways, work's first time.
So, we submitted the camp plan manager,
and we never got to sign the room at all.
So, we ended up just crashing the reds.
People actually turn up on to see it,
but we ended up crashing the sabotage
or at least stormed the aircraft by room,
because they've got a TV or a VJ input,
and we just went through their TV there.
So, it's kind of...
Ultimately, I got to transmit or communicate my message.
That's fine.
Yeah, it works.
Now, it didn't work first time,
and it didn't work when the optimum number of people
would have been there to see it.
And if you take this in a different context,
it's the big pitch presentation for different contracts.
Yeah.
You're not going to get...
They're not going to go work, you know.
Yes, your IT system didn't work,
but don't worry.
We'll give you that multi-million-pound IT contract.
If you come back to mine, I'll be like,
I said, never going to happen.
Okay.
And unfortunately,
it is...
I think events like bug camp,
I think events like the big pitch,
or the time when you need the machines to work,
is when you allow a system where the stands are full.
And yesterday,
the Ubuntu for me was falling rapidly,
because it was doing nothing to our women in the situation.
What made it worse,
is the tool to remember the situation
was apparently to launch at the command prompt.
The terminal and type L...
Was it the command?
The command was LX-R-A-N-D-R,
which I hadn't heard of,
and some people in the room hadn't heard of.
And apparently,
it's mechanism which shows you the device...
The screen devices are attached to your LX-D desktop session.
Right.
So in Windows, that's the right click.
Desktop settings.
Right?
Yep.
And you get a front end to manage that.
You see what I mean?
I'm sure it's a great tool,
but if I have to remember the magic impact and cantations
to get a terminal up and to get the right terminal
and to put the right command in,
to get this tool to tell me that everything seems fine.
And if there isn't,
then it means that there's a big problem,
or there's a multi-big problem,
a chance I can't understand.
But there is a problem now for software sometimes.
Do you think it's because, as it say,
I've practiced and written
for and by,
I would say, many developers
that the approach to problem solving
is to approach it as if you were a developer?
I think so.
I think that the,
Jim, we know the source.
What happens is someone says, well, you know, we'll make a spreadsheet, we'll compute the handle spreadsheets, no problem at all.
Oh, you know, we want to make something to work processes, they make it work process.
They make a software that they would generally use.
As far as I know, sound is still woefully unsupported on the Ubuntu.
How many versions of revisions of Ubuntu have been released?
It's been going since I've been living in 2006.
So that's like the best part of seven years to write something that makes sound work.
No one can explain to me where I can get a USB headset to Skype.
Plug it into my laptop running Ubuntu.
It's a Terra4.
It's a Terra4.
Where I can plug that in and it does address it.
Oh, you've plugged the device in.
What the?
I can't use it.
I can't make it cool, right?
I can't register it as a regular device.
Well, play audio for it.
You know, it's that sort of thing.
And you might say, well, it's peripheral.
So not if you're a musician.
Not if you're trying to prove that open source is just as good as the big boys in the big fields.
If you're saying, if all you're saying ultimately is well, open source is just as good as doing database and spreadsheet programming.
Well, well done.
You've won that battle.
Because you've got a spreadsheet and a database.
In fact, you've got multiple spreadsheets, multiple databases.
You've got lots of choice.
But you're saying, you're saying, oh, open source software is great because we can do art and we can do music and we can do video editing.
You've lost the battle, unfortunately.
Or at least you're not winning the battle.
Because I can't speak in my experience of Ubuntu.
I've installed primary because it's not laptop at the time.
It's a pre-unity.
It was installed at the time.
So no one, you know, for me, it was a cheap OOS to pull on.
Certainly we get unity and something.
My machine is out of date.
It can't run.
So, you know, those things to think of there.
I think it's a great way to aid and aid to users.
We're going to pause this recording for a position where both of those in pace is parking.
Be right back.
Thank you.
Thanks for watching.
We were really receiving a recording there.
Dave just got back after paying his parking day.
What happened when you're trying to pay your parking?
parking. So we're checking for the travel watch on Friday night. I was given a voucher which
basically was a discount on the parking at this car park. It's a lovely car box, it's
more lit and it's really secure. So I'm happy about that. However, the voucher game
was, I had expired some eight days previously. How did it? So put in the machine, all I'm
getting back is saying in Bali voucher, in Bali voucher. So this thing, this technology
is supposed to make it look easy. It's making that little bit more holder because I want
to get away. I've got a four-hour driver ahead of me. It's going to go on the clock
at least one time I get in. But no, I've got to go too far just to pay for it. Get back
down when there's a payment machine less than 10 yards from my house park. So, you know,
this is like kind of tangent and related to yesterday's technological failings. When
the context is you need this technology to work because you need to leave somewhere
or you're doing the presentation or it's vital because what's keeping your eye see you
can see working. Exactly. When it fails, you can't help but think it's personal against
yourself. It could just be the grandmins, but at this day and age, I kind of want a bit
more than, oh, it must have just picked up a flutter. Yeah, you know what I mean. That
works great for R2D too. It doesn't work for a ticket machine or someone giving you
the wrong voucher. Okay. So, you gave the presentation today though because you managed
to give your presentation. It went okay. It went okay. When you're cycling yourself up
for these things, if you think I'm going to have a room, I'm going to have time. I'll
camp suffers from this year and year. Basically, they reckon that five minutes enough time
to set something up. I think you need at least 10. I think instead of doing half hour
talks, it should be 20 minutes. Because ultimately, you don't know where you are until the last
minute anyway. And today, there was no room for me. Although there was a room for you,
it was never, it was never actually a sign. So, where did you end up? What did, what did
it say? Your talk was in, where was it? Limbo. Limbo. Limbo, that's right, yeah. Limbo.
I mean, it makes sense and turns into a sign of the room. It's no place. Yeah. It makes
sense. However, if you have four talks and you have four rooms and three of them were
assigned, sorry, not last one. Even if there's no attendees. Because ultimately, unfortunately,
a lot of people don't actually use campfire manager. It sounds sacrilegious. But are you
telling me that only 47 people turned up to the load of podcast recording? Yeah, there
was a slightly more than 47 people. That's, I mean, people are finally going to the
load campfire manager. Wow. So, I mean, really, they were using totally the room. But
of course, we all know everyone turned up for that. So, if we know that, we must know that
some people are going to turn up. We've got even registered on our own bank. It's
very true for a bank campfire manager. It's very true, but if there is no other rooms
available at that slot in the right and the other available during the live podcast
recording, then everybody is going to be telling a live podcast recording. That's true.
But, like I say, the smelltiles had no attendees, but again, talk to tall people. Yeah. So,
either in a room that weren't basically improvised, because they were dead. They wanted to see it.
They'd not find out for it. No. I know it's kind of counter to how we wanted to work,
but unfortunately, within the people. So, do you think it was a true spirit of the
uncomfortsider thing that it was kind of co-op together in a room with a bit of a TV
and some of these? It was, but I'll tell you what, it was, it was unnerving because I
didn't know if anything was going to work. If it didn't work again, I've been mortified.
At that point, either probably from a laptop out of the window, sounds extreme. We sort
of got to the cracks of the screen. I didn't cause them on purpose. They were just accidental.
You didn't even punch it in a bit. The hell's noise. I need the screen to work for me.
But, at a certain point, you're thinking, that's it, I'm walking away. And that's when you leave
the open source community. You go, you get back on the closed source train. I'm sorry to say.
I'm pretty sure that most developers don't, or you cut them in half, they'll say,
Linux, then they'll like to stick around. But, not every user is a developer. Essentially,
a user is a floating user. You'll only use your distribution, you'll only use your software
while you can use it. The second you make it too user-unfriendly for them,
the second you make it too complicated to use, you will find an alternative. People do that
with developer source software at the time. That's why we've gone from open office to
lever office. That's why we've gone from, you know, I don't know, Ubuntu to Mint, for example.
I'm trying to think of it as a rhythm box and a VR touchy or benchy, yeah. I mean, people
just pick a package that they want to use. And when you put too many features in that
user, they will move. Cool. Yeah. Okay. So, if any of the listening community were
outcome and they had signed up to hear your talk on Saturday, and unfortunately,
due to the technical issues, we're unable to hear. What would you say your talk was about?
So, our talk was essentially detailing our initial investigations into a way of using
a source software to make animation. Okay. And a way to think about organizing scenes for making
animation. We're not saying this is the way to do it. We're saying here's our way of doing it.
People can adapt it and take our tools that we're going to make available and do what we like
with it. We're trying to make it open and accessible. We're trying to make it so that you can do what
you want to do if not what's dictated. I know it seems kind of strange hearing said users will
use one thing until they never use something else. But I think we're making these tools to fix
holes that are present in some of the software. To make them use experience a little bit better,
I mean that user doesn't switch software. Okay. Is there somewhere to listen to this
find out more about all this animation stuff that you're working on? Yes, we are going to be
after our camp. We'll be putting the notes from today's presentation. That will be going on
the TitaniumBunker website and that will be available from there. So, it's TitaniumBunker.com.
Cool. We also have or in the process setting up our own YouTube channel called
TitaniumBunker.tv. Right. We want to make that a place to go to for video presentations.
So, we will do a video presentation of the presentation with a voiceover detailing how the
concepts will work. If we get chance to write tutorial videos how to do a certain cool theme or
how to do an idea. We'll do that. We'll put blog posts up on there. If we make tests,
animation tests or small bits of fun video, for example, it will go up on there and we'll try
and find the way to sort of categorize it so you can search for things. I mean, some of it will
just be here. Here's a piece of video that will be shot on the street. It's just something that
just happened to be happening to video. It might not be related to writing with Python or games
but what you really saw the things. It's going to be kind of a mishmash. Some people say it's a
mishmash. I like to think it's having a very rapid programming. Yeah, okay.
For it, well, thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions about Octane. Overall, I would
last two days. If you had to find it, I'll tell you. I've had some fun at Octane but basically the
first day was around it for you. He kind of did really an experience for me. I only went to
see one talk. No, I saw one and a half talks. I saw CC kits from John Springs. John, the nice
dry springs. He's a nice guy. He's a nice guy. Very nice guy. And that was great and I think
that's going to be great. I've got some ideas for things on to sort of try and contribute
next year. That's like a difference. We'll see if I'll have to see how they go. Okay.
Sounds good. What's this space, I guess? Can we expect a HPR episode from yourself about this?
Yeah, possibly. Possibly can do. I mean, I might even do HPR episode about our presentation.
I'm not about this new idea that I'm kicking out. But we'll see how that one goes.
So yeah, keep watching the skies or something. Keep this frequency clear.
Well, thanks for sharing your thoughts, Dave. We'd better get going because it's half past five here.
I've got four air drives. I mean, I need that. My better half will not be happy.
Yeah, anyway. Thank you very much for listening. And if you have enjoyed your
episode of HPR and you really liked it, brilliant. Don't feel afraid to do your own episode.
This is being recorded on my crappy motor on the phone in the car park Liverpool after
I'll camp. If you can record it on a rubbish phone, then you can do it for any of the other
mechanisms you can do on your PC, you can dial the phone in numbers. You can even, I believe,
they used to offer a system where you send them a script and get it read by a computer for you.
If you wanted to have that happen, you know, there's no, there's very few barriers to, to,
to contribute. So some of it next time and see you later.
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