Episode: 1250
Title: HPR1250: Interview With YTCracker
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1250/hpr1250.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-17 22:29:40

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This is Hacker Public Radio. It is a podcast that comes out every single weekday and it could
be a different host every day. Usually it is a different host every day because anybody
who feels like recording a show can record it and upload it and we publish it. And the
only restriction is that it has to be a subject that is of interest to hackers. So here's
where my interests overlap is I love hackers. I love what little bit of hacking I can do.
And I love Nerdcore Wrap. And you are absolutely the intersection of the two. And for folks
listening, I'm speaking to Mr. Whitey Cracker. So how are you doing dude? I'm doing excellent.
How are you doing? Oh fantastic. I'm doing pretty good and I'm glad to hear you doing
good. You said you're kind of sick. I'm sorry to hear that bro.
I generally like at this time of year, I always I catch what I call nerd flu. It's after
you go to like a convention. I was just at a in Vegas for affiliate summit and internex
the porn convention. And then immediately after that, I went to this anime convention in
Ohio. And when you're like in planes and you're you know, shaking hands and taking pictures
of everybody invariably, you will get infected. And that's just what's up. So I think I'm
just fighting back a little bit of a head cold from all that run around.
Yeah, for sure. So all right. So dude, so for our listeners who don't know you, can you
explain a little bit of your background? My background is it pertains to the topic at
hand, I guess. I used to be into penetration testing without permission when I was younger.
And then I did a lot of what would be considered graffiti except on websites. So it was kind
of a very hip hop way of getting up in a nerd, nerd fashion. And I used to detail a lot
of these exploits and stuff appropriate word, you know, in song form. And so as a result,
I made a lot of music instead of like chronicling what was going on in the street. It was more
about what was going on the internet. So as a result, what is called now is nerd core hip
hop named as such is, I guess, the genre that I was performing in. So basically, and in
that shell, I have a long and storied computer background and I married it with music and
thusly, I assault your ears with crap. Oh, I wouldn't call it crap, dude. I love a whole
bunch of it. I mean, you know, I don't, I don't love every nerd core rap from every artist,
you know, so I can't love all of them. But, you know, the ones that I do really like,
yours are, you know, top shelf. I mean, they are up there with with the best of the best.
I mean, you're there. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Thank you, man. I mean, because you,
you give all this stuff away. I mean, a lot of it, a lot of it can be purchased, which I got to
take issue. You got one that's only for sale and iTunes right now. I got to delegate on Amazon
or something. Yeah, I have my, well, my philosophy has always been the only reason I really started
charging for music is like when you give something and intrinsic value, like if I wrote a song and
said, hey, it costs a thousand dollars to download the song, people are going to immediately, like,
I want that song. You know, because it's a thousand dollars or whatever, just, you know, anything
expensive, just like a Louis Vuitton bag is, you know, maybe slightly better crafted than,
you know, your, your guest bag or, you know, your school backpack or something like that,
but it's just the name. So in a sense, really, I, I've always wanted to have fans more than
the money because a fan will come and see you perform when you go to their, their town or whatever,
or they'll buy t-shirts or something. So, you know, really, like, I think music is like one of those
commodities, you know, it's, it's art. So it should be, should be shared, you know, and disseminated
and remixed and played with and all that kind of stuff. So I've always believed in just kind of
letting the things I'm never going to see anybody for stealing my music or anything.
Yeah, right on. So are you, are you making a living doing music? Are you like on the road?
Oh, I have like a, I make like a theoretical living at music. My main love affair with, with money,
I make a living off of internet websites and internet marketing and stuff like that. So
my, the internet is my office, so I'm able to do it from anywhere. If I was to just shut that down
and, you know, tour constantly and be more diligent about selling merchandise and stuff, I,
I have no doubt that I could sustain myself off of just music, but music has always kind of
remained more of a secondary or tertiary profession in the sense that it's more of a hobby that
kind of became something more in a sense, but it winds up being, you know, I guess a focus point
for periods of time, I guess. So it's a, it's a semi-living. Cool, cool. Can we talk about your
background? Is it something you're comfortable talking about? I, I know it's, it's a storied
background. So where did you come from? Where did you grow up and stuff? Like, young ages?
I was born in California. My dad took a job. My dad, he was an electrical engineering major.
He got a degree and started working for a Hughes aircraft. And he was designing
stuff for the peacekeeper and tow missiles. And so I was, so we moved out to California. I was
born there, but my dad was originally from Colorado, Colorado Springs. And so when we, when I turned
two and we moved back to Denver, and then four, we were back in, in the Springs, Colorado Springs.
And I lived most of my life there. Car Springs, huge defense influx, like there's, you know,
NORAD was there. Yeah. I mentioned it, but Peterson, Schriever, the Air Force Academy.
There's a fourth Carson, which is an army base, like just a gigantic military presence. And so,
as a result, a lot of defense contractors. And my father did a lot of work for Lockheed,
Martin Marietta, then Lockheed Martin after the merger. And so I mean, he was always like a hardware
guy, but we had a computer in our house. That was rare. Oh, yeah. How old were you born?
I'm 1982. 82. Yeah. And so I mean, we had like, I mean, I held build a time vaccine
clear at one K of memory, which is like basically like a screen full. Damn. The TI 99 had a
TI basic was like the operating system of it, kind of like how Apple twos, Apple basic was there.
Let me ask you a quick question about that, about building them. Did your dad, is it something
like he put you up to and made you do it? Or was it something like you jumped at? You're like,
a whole snap. I get to build a computer. I was fascinated. Like with, that's, I started
reading very, very, I was two, like there's cassette tapes of me reading, just reading books and stuff
at two years old by four. I mean, the computer is always just just fascinating. And so by four,
I was taking, used to have to like, there's these magazines you'd get and the books you could buy.
And you could just transcribe basic programs from the books. And yeah, and, and you know,
type them in. And so just through repetition, that type of thing, that's how I learned how to
program and, and you know, modify, like modify games the way that I wanted to modify just by.
Yep. And stuff. And so, yeah, the thought of, you know, building computers, like honestly,
the older I got, the less hardware, like where stuff, like my dad was always a very good hardware
nut. But the older I got, like I wasn't playing with the breadboards and stuff as much. It was all
about software for me. That's cool. That's, I, when my oldest daughter asked me for a computer,
I made her build it. And I just didn't know, like, you know, I told it, but she didn't seem
too enthused about it, except for when we were doing it. But I don't know if it was more
the time we were spending together or the computer part of it. But she at least gets to brag
to her computer teacher that she built her own. And nobody else even knows what she means by that.
But, you know, I had a, I had a similar experience not too long ago with my own daughter. I was
trying to, my computer wouldn't post one of my PCs. And so I opened it up. And I was explaining to
her all of the, you know, different components of a, of a computer. And, and again, like it's,
you could tell she loves playing computer games, but she's not so much into the, how do
the computer game really work? You know, I think that was part of my, I guess, love affair,
where there's the fact that I wanted to know like the behind the scenes type of stuff. She wasn't
incredibly interested, but, you know, it's, it's kind of an aging material. Like you sort of have
to have a love for it. You know, some people have it, some people don't. It's just a passion for
anything, you know? Yeah. Now, how old were you when that happened? What, what, when you were,
when you were building computers or your dad? Oh, like four, five, six, um, wow. You know, I,
I was in Cub Scouts. And like the Pinewood Derby car that I built was a police car. And it had
like a working siren with the LED. Nice. So I mean, there's all sorts of like little electronics
that like having a father, I guess it was, you know, involved in electronics and everything.
I think maybe it's helped because you never kid looks up to their parents at some point in their
life. So yeah. No, I've, I've built the Pinewood Derby cars too, but I never did it as a kid. I did
it as a dad. We've built a couple now. But mostly my son has done his own. He's done all his,
he wouldn't even let me help you. You know, even when I tried, he just, he, he did what I told him
to do as far as the performance stuff, but all his own stuff was his own stuff. And we did
growing up stuff. So I made one that was that looked like a NES controller with a mushroom drive.
And I did another one like with carbon fiber and stuff. I went nuts with it. That's awesome.
What we've done knows if they were fun. So when did, when did, when did rap and hip well back then,
it wasn't hip hop. It was rap, but when, when do rap company come into your life?
I was like kind of queer. I don't know. I just, I love like poetry and everything. And,
and writing stories. And I mean, even, you know, when I was a little less, that came with the,
the reading. And then, I mean, I play guitar for, I mean, since like high school, but I say
middle school, I kind of really got in hip hop. Just, I think there was just that suburban,
like there was the whole MC hammer of vanilla ice wave or whatever that come out. Yeah, right on.
That was like phase three for me. Yeah, that was like the skating, the skating rink phase.
I was called, yep, oh man, the skating rink. How many girlfriends did you have from the skating
rink? And I, not many, honestly, I, do you, do you, do you, I remember the disco ball would spin
and it would like screw me up so I'd always fall over because the lights reflect on the rink.
And, you know, you make you look like you're going super fast. Yeah, yeah.
I was, again, I was, I was really, really nerdy, like growing, like, I mean, I wasn't like
socially outcast or anything like that, but I was super just like off. I guess you can say,
like it just kind of didn't really fit in. I don't, I don't think you got to explain that to
the hacker public radio crowd. I think we all understand that. I think pretty much most of us
come from a similar background as far as that mindset is concerned. Yeah, so I had a lot of
girlfriends, but they didn't know it. They didn't know they're my girlfriend. Oh, right on.
Yeah, see, I used to have to go to the skating rink to meet girls because all the girls from
my town already knew what a nerd I was. So I had to go there to meet girls from other town.
So I had at least three or four. Yes. And then you get the whole, my girlfriend goes to another
school, like that whole thing, like, oh, you know, yeah. And what a bitch it was making calls
because two towns over was long distance and your parents would kill you for racking the bill up.
I do. I'm having this is a memory lane, like, who's fun, fun back to me. That's good stuff.
So you came into or rap came to you about the time, like MC Hammer and those guys that was when
you started in the hip hop that I like said, it was this whole, like, I remember I had a
Newsweek magazine and they had like Snoop on the cover. And it was talking about is I got the
magazine on my grandparents. I was talking about this influx of gangster rap, like, just this gritty,
you know, I guess portrait of the street type of stuff that, I mean, the suburban kid, like
myself, never would have even imagined the, you know, types of goings on in this. Yeah.
And I think that a lot of kids. And so, but it wasn't until I would say, like, like,
high age when I really started to, you know, do do it myself. And, you know, there's always a huge
hip hop notion of keeping it real and everything. And so I was part of this little collective,
we called ourselves Angel Pool on key elements. And it was just like this Hodgepodge of guys.
But, you know, every verse that I was throwing down would always have, like, computer references
and stuff in it. And so it was, I wrapped what I knew. And then, conversely, I guess, I sort of
just spilled over into, you know, full songs. And I would do, like, these parody type songs,
like, reflected cash money, no limit type of stuff, except I was doing them about, you know,
spamming on the internet or, you know, hacking or something like that. And so that's sort of the
the genesis of all that stuff. I'm glad you brought up keeping it real because it was something
that you made me almost immediately. I was thinking of keeping it real where a lot of hip hop
kind of centers around having, having that credibility and keeping it real and wrapping about
what you know and not being a pretender, which is where, like, you know, guys like vanilla ice made
their mistake where he wrapped about being a gangster when he'd never seen one. Right. Right.
Right. So the fact that you're wrapping about nerdy stuff and stuff that isn't mainstream,
but it is what you know, to me, that is keeping it real. And my guess is that you probably didn't
have to fight for cred that it probably came with that because you were keeping it real, is that
is that about right? Or was it still tough? At the beginning, like, it was odd. There was this
period time where I had, like, I was entertaining a very small group of people that, you know, kind of,
we had a good laugh about it. And just for people who don't know, this is back when nerds were not
cool yet. Right. Right. I mean, I'm talking like, you know, late 90s, even, I mean, I guess there's
sort of a chic kind of attached to it. Like, there was that whole kind of resurgence in the 80s,
but it was a giant parody of itself. What wound up happening, I guess, is yeah, towards the end of
the 90s and beginning to even had, like, when I was doing initially the music that I was doing,
it was finding an audience, but oddly enough, there was a lot of people that were against me. Like,
they were like, you know, this is stupid. Like, what is this white kid trying to wrap about, you
know, even like people I made a filter and, you know, these are supposed to be my people, you
know, that they're feeling this. And so there was a period of time where I found a lot of opposition.
But in 2003, like, it was one of my largest stage performance. I performed with the exhibit of,
like, pin my ride, you know, dog pound fame. I was doing the players ball, which is, you know,
this, like, Don Magic, Juan, you know, Snoop performed there, you know,
a great respect for what I was doing because of the whole keeping it real aspect, which was,
which was really cool. Now, here's, here's what you have me at a slight disadvantage because
where I came into to wrap or where wrap came to, I've never done it. I've only ever been a fan
and a listener. Where it came to me earlier, like, I, I, she's, I was listening to wrap in probably
84, 85, 86, because I lived, I won't say I lived in the city, but it lived right in the outskirts
of Boston. And I was listening to all of that. And then when the early 90s rolled around and, like,
NWA, I could not get enough NWA, but even before that, I couldn't get enough of, like,
EPMD, even DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince were, were hot shit to me because I was a young kid.
But when two live crew came around and they're a disrespect for women,
started coming in, even as a young kid, as like a 13-year-old kid, maybe a 13 or 14 or 15,
something like that, I couldn't take it and I bailed on, on, on wrap. And I had no music really
in my life for, like, several years until somebody was like, okay, look, here's,
Led Zeppelin, here's Jethro Tull, and you know, so like, here's some good music, no problem. And then
recently, like, 2005, 2006, I started hearing some nerd corn. I was like, oh, man, this is old-school
good wrap. This is, this is great. So I missed from like, probably 94 to 2004. So I never heard,
and you know, these guys should talk about now, like Snoop Dogg and, and I forget the other guy
just mentioned the dog pound. Exhibit used to wrap with this group called Alcholix, but, you know,
he's, he was with, you know, Snoop and Dre and Eminem, like, that whole, like, kind of death row
click, or, I wasn't death row after, Matt. Like, I've all, again, I've always been a fan of it,
oddly enough, like, my first and biggest love of music is electronic music, still to this day,
is probably, like, what I listen to the most, and what I love the most. So there's a lot of that
feel is in my beats, and everything I try to, I do a lot of, like, chiptuneo electronic stuff,
in the, in the beats I usually attack. Maybe I like trying to music now is, is probably, like,
one of the most forward-thinking genres of music that exists in hip hop. It's odd, because I think
that you can take a hip-hop song from 10 years ago, play it today, and it's still about the same
message. And Nerdcore is kind of cool because it, it encapsulates technology and stuff in a very
interesting way. So, because of that, I think it stays a little fresher than, you know, most things.
Totally feeling what you're saying there, the, your chiptunes there, I've got to admit,
I never played the game Chrono Trigger until I heard your album Chrono Narga, and heard,
which is named Chadly on the Nerdcore of Yale podcast, mentioned that game so many times.
And I went back and played the game, and some of the music started coming up that you were
using in your songs. I was like, a holy crap. These are almost as good as his record, so that was
really cool for me. And electronic music, I think, has always been at the forefront. I just
think it took a dive in the 80s when some of the synths got too easy. Some of the synths that
didn't sound so good got too easy to use, but I just heard a thing today. Currently there's a,
there's a short documentary out there about the guys who made the Doctor Who theme song from like,
the one that they started using in the late 60s with the the Theraman Sound and thing, and that
was all like cut and paste, like literally cut and pasted tape. And the little bit that you hear
that, it's fantastic. If you ever get a chance to check that out, if you haven't, that's, that's,
I mean, it's, it's so eerie and creepy and awe and inspiring at the same time. It's fantastic
and electronic music can do that. Definitely. Definitely. So I'm definitely feeling what you're doing.
And I'll just take a pull the the curtain back for a second here. I'm trying my best not to talk
over you because we're using Skype recorder here. And when I talk, it cuts you out completely
from the recording. So don't don't think that I'm not involved. I'm just waiting for a break. So
sorry for that. No, no, that's perfectly fine. So all right. So now you, when you started
getting into rap, you were rapping about hacking. So what kind of, what kind of hacking were you doing?
What, what, um, like what year did that start up for you? I guess what era and like what,
what was the system you were using and what kind of hacking were you doing? I guess the music is
more like a life imitates art imitates life imitates our type of the wheel there. I was big
into the local BBS scene, which was it was funny because there was a lot of boards kind of in
in the spring area. And everybody kind of had their little clicks. Like I close this up to two
boards, but then there's this other board vertigo as I did dominion in vampires anonymous and
vampires anonymous had this huge like vampire the masquerade role playing thing. But you know,
we all had like trade wars was a huge game and legend the red dragon. But there's these gigantic
like weird clicks, I guess in the BBS scene just locally, even just among the people that would
meet at Denny's three in the morning. And from that, you know, there was all this kind of
rivalry board hacking, or you know, you'd set up toe-mokes that wore dials, someone's nodes,
that way they couldn't know and call in. And so I mean, there were just kids stuff like that.
I remember my dad got a slip account through work. And then so finally, trumpet winsock
us on the internet and you know, learning about, you know, the web was a baby. I mean, we used
mosaic and CSA mosaic was the browser at the time. And I mean, the standard was really low.
There was muds, you know, there were kind of like doors off telling that and everything. So I was
kind of there from the beginning of this technology. And then when I got into the hacking stuff,
I mean, back then, I mean, it's still the same today. There's always just odd vulnerabilities,
different types of them. But more, I was into that hip-hop culture due to my, you know,
white kid identity crisis or whatever. And so it was kind of this same sort of thing, like I'd
go in there and I'd, you know, to face web pages, you know, replace the index pages of government
web servers or company web servers. And you know, whether it's through backdoors or if we had,
I remember I had the local library rooted and they're running some system five that you could
get in through BBS. And then you could use that actually get on the internet. I don't know,
there's all kinds of weird stuff, I guess. But then it was more just taking that, you know, musically
than if you were to take out like drug dealing and shooting people and replace it with, you know,
hacking computers and cracking passwords, you have the same, same type of thing.
Right on. So a lot of what you're doing, a lot of what you were doing, excuse me, at the time,
it sounds like more of a graffiti type thing and just trying to get some attention more than like
an outright destructive or exploitative thing. Is that about right? Yeah, there was, I mean, part of
like what it became was this kind of weird hacktivist, I mean, before hacktivist that title even
existed, like when I started doing things against the government, you know, and defacing their sites,
I was responsible. I mean, again, I guess I don't know, statute of limitations has passed on
this so much, but don't don't talk about anything that you can't talk about. I'm not trying to
drag anything out of you. Not not not like that. I mean, there was times I would warn administrators
and I would feel like, hey, you're shit's not secure. And then I would, but I'd get no response.
And so then I'd own them and then all of a sudden, well, then, you know, if people run around like
taking to the heck and fixing things and, you know, some of it just, I said, it became kind of a
this weird cat and mouse game, in a sense, a huge, the American online hacking scene, which now,
in retrospect, it's very odd because AOL has become this kind of odd fraternity like guys that
were on it. Most of us are successful business guys and everybody has a story about a punter or
something. But I mean, we had like root access on, you know, internal AOL servers and, you know,
we were able to pull credit cards and account information. And I mean, shit. Oh, there's plenty of
articles on the internet. If you look them up, just whiteycracker AOL, like we had access to the
consumer resource information system. This is the thing called Chris and Merlin and, and I mean,
as many people that were on AOL, you could literally type in anyone's phone number or address or
name and you were able to pull all their information. So you could shut up a lot of people quick,
you know, when you're, you know, I believe if you got somebody's phone number, you could pull up
all their account information and stuff because most everybody had a grandma or a dad or something
like that. I mean, I still have the screen name Bryce, like no, no numbers, just Bryce. And I have,
and YTC is suspended, but I still have YXC. And I used to have the screen name YT. And I had
the screen name W. Yeah. And there's a lot of my rhymes and stuff like that earlier that we're about
the American online, like spamming and acting scene and stuff. I forgot even when I was talking
about, but in any case, the whole, this whole, you know, warning, early warning system that I had,
it became this, this thing that, hey, there's a, this is a kid, a 16 and 17 year 15, 16 and 17 year old
kid that's like outsmarting, you know, a multi-billion dollar government operation or
corporate operation. And it shouldn't be that easy. Like, if people are not doing their jobs,
obviously. And so it became this sort of a statement to me, like, you know, hey, if I could do it,
you know, in my free time, you know, after cutting class or whatever, then I mean, surely a foreign
national could do this. And, you know, with much worse plans, you know, and now I think that's
more important than it was, you know, 13 years ago or whatever. Yeah. You wrote an article on your
blog. I'm not sure how long ago you wrote it, but I read it maybe last week or the week before
about how America is treating its hackers and how they're criminalized for learning stuff. But
other countries are assimilating their hackers. And so we're, you know, our government, our
country's way behind on its technological skills. And that happened, I read that article
like a day or two before the whole Aaron Schwartz, Aaron Schwartz, thank you, my brain turned off there.
Before the whole Aaron Schwartz fiasco, I'm going to call it happened. And I mean, for me,
reading it, it couldn't have been more timely, but that, I mean, you know, people listening should
check out whiteycracker.com. People listening should check out whiteycracker.com. And I think it's
still at the bottom of the front page and just scroll down and check out a couple of those articles,
because the articles you're writing are fantastic. So at the time you were, you know, doing the
defacing and letting people know and kind of doing what white hat hackers do nowadays is letting
people know about vulnerabilities. You know, it seems like now there's a thing where people put
like a time limit on it where they'll, they'll release it if they're not, if it isn't patched or,
or they'll put a bounty on it if they're not paid for it. But you were kind of pioneering that idea.
And the government, as I understand it, didn't like that. And they figured you out at some point,
right? I was never too secretive about what I was doing. And that's the thing. In my police
report, I mean, it's thick. It's, it's like a, like a Tolstoy novel. I mean, I went by
whiteycracker, personally and professionally. I guess as it were, like people knew me as it,
because I was doing, I was in the band and I did all this, like, I was doing electronic music and
the hip-hop stuff and everything that I did. I mean, tights. And even the police officer, you know,
post-columbine, I was just, I was in high school, like, right when that happened and that happened
right after road. And so we started having, you know, police presence at our schools a little bit.
It became sort of a mandatory thing. And even the cop knew who I was, you know, when they asked
them about me. And so I wasn't ever very, like, secretive about it. But, you know, the thing is,
is now, you know, in this post-9-11 terror-stricken world, I mean, I can't imagine, because I mean,
I got off relatively easy. I mean, it was just basically a dollar amount attached to my crimes.
I mean, nowadays, that type of, like, you cannot make the government look foolish these days,
because it's basically just spinning in their face. And so, you know, now, I'm sure there'd be
a little heftier penalty attached to the types of things that I was doing. So I mean, it's the
good old days in some ways, because it was after, you know, computer fraud abuse 86, you know,
when people didn't know what to do with the criminals, like, they had a vague idea with the do-then,
but it wasn't like every guy with a computer and bad intentions as a terrorist type of thing.
Yeah, right on. What did they charge? Oh, okay, well, first of all, I got to know, do you have,
like, photographs, or nots, photographs like screen caps? Do you have screen captures of any of
the stuff that you did? Because it's got to be funny, right? Let's see. There used to be this
government training video. Oh, there it is. Yeah. I uploaded it on YouTube here. I'll send it to you
real quick there. But this was actually on a government site. And it took like pieces of my
local news jumped on it. And I was in the paper for a little while after this. I got really
lucky because the reason I basically got charged under state statutes of computer crime, which is
like this vague bullshit throwaway thing. And the reason that happened was because I had hacked
the local PD. The color springs website was right on the intranet of the, where the CSPD was.
And I had done acts of, I was about to change school records and stuff. I had everything,
I had my hooks and a lot of stuff at that time, just because it became like, I don't know,
obsessive. Like you just want to collect all the Pokemon. Yeah, I understand that. At this time,
again, like, you know, when you're 17 and my hormones are raging, but I didn't have a female
to pick out on the internet was my mistress. And so basically, I was able to get charged locally
and then not under federal statutes and guidelines. I didn't face federal court as a result of it
because they had agreed to drop the jurisdiction to the local level. So all the cases got bundled
up and thrown into a local circuit court. And I got probation. And it was like 200 grand in
restitution. It wound up being huge. I think it started out as like 120 or something, but then
interest and all this. But I paid that off years ago and that finally got done with. So that was
the extent of it. I didn't I didn't serve any time. They didn't say you can't use the internet
because they knew that they couldn't get money. The money that they wanted for restitution out of
me if I couldn't use a computer. So again, like I said, I was in this period of time where
computer criminals weren't completely vilified because people understood that, oh, this is the
difference between a guy that hacks banks and a guy that is just defacing websites or whatever.
Yeah, first of all, wow, they really didn't know what to do with, you know, computer hackers at the
time because there's there's so many better options. I mean, you either send a guy for prison
if he's a real bad guy or you hire the guy if he's not a real bad guy. But also, wow, that's a
shit ton of money, dude, to pull all that together. That's incredible. Okay. So you were convicted,
whether you pled guilty or they find you guilty, whatever, was that considered a misdemeanor or a
felony? And did they charge you as a minor so that you got a clean record now? I mean, how's that
affecting you now? Well, it was a felony, but I was 17 at the time of my conviction or
the offense or whatever. So I was adjudicated. But then I went up picking a hang on charge later.
Oh, balls. Yeah. So I mean, it had like a ripple effect in my life in the sense that what happened
the whole hire or fire thing type or hire lock them up type of thing. I remember asking them about
that, you know, when it had happened. And their reasoning was that and it made sense, actually,
like that a John Q taxpayer, like a regular person that would be the pays taxes and goes to work
in nine to five, you know, it's hard to justify like letting a criminal work for them. It's like
that most people you could not justify to a taxpayer and say like, well, we took this criminal
who was doing bad things and now we give him a job. I can understand that argument on its
surface, but I wouldn't buy it now and I wouldn't buy it then because that assumes that the
government doesn't know how to do anything on the DL. And I don't buy that shit for a minute.
Two degree, like I get that, you know, 110%. There is many ways, I think, to skate it and
enough black ops ways. And there's even ways to do it out in the open. And I think it was that's
where the public perception, it was different at that time. Just like the catch me if you can't
thing, like if you take a guy that, you know, is forging checks, you know, left around, I mean,
what better person to catch a criminal than a criminal type of thing? And, you know, forensically,
it takes a criminal mind to do criminal things. And that's where I think the game has always been
fun is that there's always this type of give and take where, I mean, tomorrow, if somebody asked
me, I mean, I could end spam on the internet. I can end. There's a lot of things I know just
intrinsically how to do and no one has really gotten right at because of the fact that the people
that are in charge are not thinking about how to beat it. And I think it is odd the other day,
Kimble from Kim the dot com mega upload guy. He had this like three step plan to eliminate piracy.
And he's like, make it easy to get, make it available on any device and make it available in all regions
at the same time. And you're not going to have piracy issues. Yeah, that's that's a well-known fact.
We've known the we who consume media via the internet have known that for 10 or 12 years now.
And that's what's so weird is there's a rift in between like I always forget until I talk to,
I mean, not to be condescending and it's like when I talk to like normal quote unquote people or like
the average computer user or something, it's so insane to realize how much they don't understand
about like a computer or like what works and and these executives like when I work decides
support, you know, for a while, like you run into these people that are, you know, paid their six
figure jobs, six figure incomes, relatively intelligent in their field, but but they're running
their Windows computer as admin and they don't understand how a spreadsheet file can disappear.
They don't know how to open this email. I mean, it's a ridiculous like amount of
just retardation is the best way I could describe it is that with with this technology available
everywhere, some people just like they don't want to learn it. And so as a result of that,
you kind of see this that there's a lot of things that I think we take for granted as people that
are savvy in the computer industry that other people just do not, I mean, they don't understand
the concepts behind it. And it's it's way easier for me to open them Netflix and stream movies like
I love that. Like if I don't have to pirate it and I just pay, you know, 10, 15, $20 a month to
have access to the things I want to access to, like, I don't know problem with that. I mean,
that's that's easier than me having to go even open up my torn client and open a VPN and find
the, you know, right torrent that has a lot of cedars and skull by it. So I know it's a real guy
and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, absolutely. It's easier to pay two bucks than to spend two bucks
worth of your time to find the thing and pirate it. I agree 100% with that opportunity. Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. Okay, so once you got done with that with the legal stuff, turn in 18 years old
now and you got to did you move out your parents house right away and start working? Did you
hang around for a while? I mean, what would those years look like? I started a penetration testing
coming in with my buddy Edward. He was actually in Glowahill, which is a hacker group with me. I did
contract database design for an escort service and a limo service. I mean, and again, like, I'm just
18 fresh faced and I'm already traveling and, you know, people saw this my resume as a bonus,
you know, like, oh, that's really interesting that this guy, you know, hacks computers and,
you know, knows what he's doing and all this stuff. So I worked at Gateway. I was tech support there.
I did death sites for for for Ford credit toward financial, which the car company. I was a
database deal for MCI. So I mean, I had this crazy resume. I mean, this was all by the time I was
22, 23 or something. So I had a really good experience, you know, over, I mean, I dropped out of
high school. So basically, it kind of did carry me. Everybody saw it more as a positive than as
a negative. And it wasn't, you know, I passed background checks because it wasn't, you know,
again, it was as a juvenile. So definitely a bonus. Right on, right on. And you kept doing that,
what probably till you went into business for yourself. When I was 18, I incorporated or organized
my LLC and I used to do the, I was DJing electronic music. And I did club promotion and
rape promotion stuff. That's what digital gangster first started out as and then kind of blossomed,
the consulting stuff. But I basically, you know, went and got the nine to five thing because I had
a daughter. And so I want to make sure that things were kind of eyes are dotted and teased across
there. But I just got stiffed over and over in the corporate world. I'm sure a lot of people can
relate to that. I mean, eventually I was just like, well, you know, I think if I trust my own
instincts, I just do business for myself. I'll do okay. And it's, I mean, it's panned out. I can't,
I don't really have any complaints. And while sometimes I work odd hours and sometimes I'm
completely swamped and sometimes I have absolutely nothing going on. But at the same time, you know,
when you're in charge of your destiny, it kind of has a different effect on, you know, when the
harder you work, the better you do, that has a real good impact. I think on your psyche.
Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, I've never worked for myself. But it's intriguing, but it's a big scary
jump to make for sure. So some of your earlier albums, like Spam Tech. I know it's the name of the
album, but is Spam Tech for real? Is that, did you ever do spamming and that kind of thing?
If you are into living on that or is that something you can't quite talk about? It's a spamming,
oh, that's, that's enough secret. I mean, spamming is like the, is the genesis. It's actually what
screwed up money for me, in a sense, because there is, I mean, this was in high school too. Like,
when most kids were getting summer jobs, I mean, I bought all my own clothes, I had, that's,
I did move out of the house when I was 17, because I mean, I had, and everything that I'd done,
you know, in that marketing field, that's why I was doing the adult internet conventions and stuff,
so young as well, because I was really entrenched in that business. And Spam Tech was this group of,
it was me and this other kid flow tailor, then this guy, E-God, he was like a fan,
but then he wound up joining, and then it was like this triumvirate, and then I had a buddy,
Ryan, who kind of came in later as a, as the consigliary. And, you know, to this day, we've
maintained our relative friendships with the exception of one member, but, uh, the, yeah, to this day,
we're still like fairly tight, and we still do a lot of stuff together. What's the backstory
with the lobster bisque? I don't get that joke. Oh, that, there was this, uh, there's this guy,
version, um, Evan Gates, who he's actually, he's working somewhere, he's doing something, but, uh,
he, he was a programmer for one of our entities, and I met him off my board, did a gangster,
and he was local to me in Colorado. He's going to school in Boulder, but he was working for us,
and we think it gave him $5 to drink a bowl of lobster bisque. And it was just like one of those
things, like that song, um, Kingdom Trial is like basically about like testing, you know, your loyalty
as a, as a human being, you know, if you're going to be down with the, uh, with the cause, the cause
they're not, and lobster bisque is not the coolest thing to drink. Uh, yeah, I would make me vomit,
but yeah, for $5, he did it, and he did a bang up job. All right, right on. I'm a fan of lobster
bisque, so I, I probably would have done that too. So I guess, does that bring us up to nowadays,
or is there, is there more backstory there? Now, I mean, this life happens. I mean, there's
just been, there's been a lot of, you know, weird ups and downs and things here and there. I mean,
I was married, divorced, daughter born, you know, all that stuff. And some of it, I can see the
music, like, how it evolved. There's this period, like in a spam tech, in the second spam tech album,
there's a lot of these, like, kind of emo-y songs and that period, uh, you know, when I was going
through my breakup and everything. Uh, but yeah, again, I, it's, it's odd because, you know,
most times you have, like, if you listen to a song on a radio or you hear a song, like I said about,
you know, the roller rink, like, when you hear, you know, an empty hamburger track or something,
they're like, oh, yeah, the roller rink. Like, it's cool to have my own music, like, the kind of
snap-shotted pieces of my life, like, where if I hear a song, I can remember kind of, you know,
what I was going through or what Taylor was going through or, you know, what, what was going on at
that time or when I made it or how we made it or where we were when we made it. So that sort of,
a look is really, I think, interesting, uh, because it sort of has this ability to, um,
you know, bring me back to a time and place, not here. It's like time traveling since then.
Yeah, I can, I can absolutely get down with that. I, um, when I went through my divorce,
I might not have survived it, survived it if it weren't for soulful music. Like, I got into blues,
um, I got into, like, like, old school blues, you know, buddy guy and, and, um, you know,
BB King and Bobby Blan and that kind of thing. And, uh, and then there's some newer stuff that's
real soulful. But if I did, if there weren't that lifeline, I know what you mean. I don't know
if I would have survived it, but yeah, music, you can definitely trace your state of mind through
your, your playlist at any given point. Oh, yeah, definitely. It's, it's amazing like that.
Music is what's kind of a platitude, but I guess music, music is life.
cliche or whatever. Well, it's, I don't know if, I mean, sure, if you're making it, it,
it must be, but I mean, as a listener, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it life, but it's definitely,
like, the frame around the picture, you know what I mean? Like, like, it's, it's, it's a way to,
to see it with some sort of perspective as opposed to only being in the center of the, the
orb of, uh, you know, happenstance, you know, it lets you step back and have a look for a minute,
anyway. Oh, definitely. It's, uh, it's like kind of just the, the, like a thread, I guess, a thing.
Um, and it's, it's in the scape, well, I think even just in the culture, it's always been that way,
though, the whereas, I mean, maybe it, yeah, somebody that makes it, like, I have a different,
like, appreciation for it, but it, like, it's not like a more appreciation. It's just a different
appreciation, I guess, is, is what it comes down to. They think it, as a listener, people have a
certain appreciation for something, but then it's, like, when you break it down, it's like a whole
different type of, uh, appreciation for, uh, music. So now, did you just release it? You just released
an album, right? This one that we just talked about, you had, uh, it was on iTunes. Uh, no, no, no, no.
Just released, uh, I did on Bandcamp, which is, uh, it's this, the concept of it is great. It's,
this, like, pay what you want, like, or you can charge for it, but it's, it's that whole
Kim.com thing we're talking about earlier, where you just say how much you want to pay for the album,
if you want to pay zero dollars, pay zero dollars, and you can get it for free. And it's on, uh,
Bandcamp, if you go to whiteycracker.bandcamp.com, and it's based off of Earthbound, which is another
SNES RPG. It was called Mother in, uh, in Japan, and, and I think you're up to, uh, that, yeah, that's,
it's just, uh, it's, it's the type of, same type of thing is Krona Norge, except it's Earthbound
music. Nice. Should I go back and play the game before listening to the album, or should I listen
to the album before playing the game? It doesn't really matter. If you play the game, like, all of the
names of the songs, uh, have to do with the, uh, it's the same thing with Krona Norge. It's this, um,
it's the, the titles of the soundtrack, like, the actual songs and subjects are the, it's the same
in the soundtrack, because it isn't in my song. So, if you play the game, you have a different
appreciation for it, but unlike Krona Norge, the songs don't have as much to do with the game as,
as they did. Have you played, uh, Andor's Trail yet? It's a, it's a free software game. They got
on Android. I'd love to hear an album about that game. It's, it's pretty friggin awesome.
Nah, in fact, I don't, like, I'm thinking about getting the note too. Everybody did, um, I'm still
iPhone, but all, everybody in my immediate circle went to the note too. It's like a fablet,
like a phone tablet type of thing. So, I'm probably going to wind up switching here soon. I,
my girls got a galaxy, say, galaxy S, what do you have? Oh, I used to have that. I'm a team of
all, it's just like my attention. My, oh, my touch. Yeah. So, um, my experience with Android,
like, I, I always had this feeling every time I've used the phone and Android phone,
it's always seemed like it hadn't grown up yet, but finally after, like, some interview with that,
that note too. Um, it looks like it's, uh, it looks like it's a real boy now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm,
I'm way behind the time on gadgets and stuff. I'm still using, it might even be a my touch. It's
the HTC magic, but it's, I mean, it's years old, but it's running, uh, it's running
in signage and mods, who it isn't so terrible, but, you know, I've been playing that game
and or his trail on that. And it's a, it's that kind of adventure, uh, not adventure. Like,
the turn-based, uh, same kind of game as, as, as Chrono Trigger and, uh, Earthbound,
what the hell is called again? Row playing game? Thank you. I don't know why my brain switches off
every time I try to talk about something I'm doing, but, uh, yeah, yeah. No, anyway, that, that's,
that's all that is. Um, so in, and what are you doing now as far as business goes, uh, because,
because you said you wrap about life, so someone listening to the show wants to hire you for some of
their internet stuff. How do we, how do we get on your next album as, as a customer of what you're
doing in life now? I do. Like, it's kind of like Godfather, um, how, uh, Tom Hagen, you know,
represents the interest of one client. Uh, it's generally how it goes. Like, I have
partnership stakes and the things that I do, uh, but more or less, yeah, I'm a, like,
combination of, of Tom Hagen and Winston Wolf from, um, from Pulp Fiction. I just, I saw a lot of
odd problems, but actually right now it's all, I have more things to do than I do time. And, uh,
so that's always bad. Like, in fact, I procrastinated everything I needed to do today because I'm a
terrible person. And your interview was the reason that I was like, I got to do something today
that's substantive. So, uh, thank you for helping me, um, you know, do actually do something
productive today because otherwise I would have just lazily stayed undressed and eaten barbecue
chips all day. Oh, geezer, you can meet thank you for the interview. I mean, you're, you're,
given up your time for hacker public radio, which is, you know, one of my passions. So, I mean,
from, from my perspective, you're the one doing me the favor for sure. And, and, and all of HPR,
I think this interview is going to go over pretty well with our listeners. Is there anything you
want people to know about that you're doing or, or any, uh, any causes that you're interested in,
that you want people to hear about and consider? I'm currently, like, I'm big on the, the Bradley
Manning and, uh, and Jeremy Hammond issues, basically, uh, Bradley Manning, he's the one that's
up for, uh, the Wikileaks, like the classified documents, or classified documents release and,
and he's, hold on a second, I, I just unmuted by accident, cut you off. I'm sorry about that. Uh,
yet Bradley Manning was the, um, the, the enlisted guy who released the documents to Wikileaks.
Correct. Correct. And then, uh, Jeremy Hammond was, uh, a member of the, uh,
Lose I clicked that I, and was loosely the, the bard of the, that, I guess that, that is how I
look at myself. I'm like a bard. Like, I just, I'd say with the internet that it's like some
Shakespearean, um, I put a soundtrack to the things they're going on. But, uh, Jeremy, he did,
he had that whole strap for, um, release and that did that kind of activist thing with the credit
cards and, you know, of these members. And it's coming out now that the judge in his case is
married to one of the victims of the, uh, of the whole strap for hack and stuff and, and, oh,
knows. Yeah. Oh, knows. And so there's this, but part of it goes back to that whole thing I
seen about the, the, the treatment is disproportional to like the crime. There's child molesters and,
uh, you know, real scumbags like real, like, people that are trafficking in, in child pornography
or, or, or rapists or murderers. And for them to be facing, oh, and Barrett Brown is another guy
that he just got sentenced for the third time, died for a third series of stuff. He's looking at
a hundred years or something. There's this real runaway train. Yeah. A hundred, a hundred years
for that shit. And how long, how long did the guy who tried to shoot, uh, Reagan? How long did he
spend behind bars? I wonder. Was that your hand, sir? Yeah, I think it was. And it was like 18 or,
or 19 years or something. So, I mean, that's like, there is something in a system that's supposed to
be lawful, like, you know, and, and fair to some degree. I mean, it's very stupid. Like that a
kid, you know, Aaron Schwartz would like kill himself. I mean, granted there's things about, you know,
his depression and stuff. Well, I feel that like I, I know where that comes from. But, you know, he,
you know, to kill himself because he's facing this many years over releasing, you know, some
academic documents and, and I think people have this, you know, well, it isn't me type of attitude
towards a lot of this. And they don't want to understand that it's hard. I think for any
person to look and see like how this is kind of a miscarriage of, you know, what is justice? Like,
you know, that you can have vinyl criminals or, you know, exploitative, like real pieces of shit.
And, and then, uh, the fact that they walk free after five years and, you know, time served good time.
And then you have these guys who sat on a computer and embarrassed people. Because again,
it's not like what Manning did was this gigantic, uh, it was an embarrassment. It wasn't like a
gigantic security breach that were the secrets of, you know, nuclear secrets of the United States were
admonished. There's a total, just it's like an imbalance in, in, in how we punish these crimes,
how we prosecute them and what we do with these, these people. And, and I, so I'm definitely like
involved in, I guess, trumpeting the causes of like, hey, yes, they did bad things. But,
you know, everybody, Jaylox, come on, like, we need, we need some type of, you know, balance,
some order in this, uh, in this stupid. Yeah, well, and, and in a system that's allegedly made of
justice, let's have a little bit of justice. Yeah, absolutely. There's a whole, I mean,
where the punishment fits the crime type of thing. And that's the thing. I think if you
pulled, you know, the regular people on the street, this is, this is something that they can
understand. Like, okay, like, you know, I mean, how many people in, you know, in an immediate family,
like, I would say like, or extended, if I extended my cousin or something like that, everybody has
knows it's something that's been burglarized, everybody knows something that's been raped,
everybody knows something that's, I mean, I'll be a friend, be it a cousin, be it a, you know,
uncle, whatever, like, there's always somebody. I mean, you can touch. It's like cancer. Like,
there's some type of palpable, you know, understanding that. But, you know, how many people can say,
like, well, you know, I've been hacked, like, and it ruined my life. Or I, I have PTSD because
my, that AOL account was stolen or something. Like, there's, there's a serious, like, if you break
it down for people and then you make them understand it, like, look, there's a difference between,
like, a bunch of rich people getting embarrassed and raping a child and the guy that rapes a child
gets out way earlier, there's something wrong with, with that model. So that's one of the things
that, like, I think I'm biggest on is just trying to get that reconciliation of the, hey, yeah,
they're, they did that and maybe they should have some type of punishment. But, you know, the types
of punishment that we're loving as a society is completely wrong. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's ridiculous.
It's, it's, it's so far beyond unproportional. It is just ridiculous. So, so you, how do I want
to phrase this question? You accept the story that, that Aaron Schwartz killed himself then?
Uh, well, I'm not, I said to, what? Because I'm, I'm like a degree of separation away from him.
And, um, uh, if this is real talk radio, like, I, I mean, I'm bipolar. And so I mean, and I,
I've, I try to commit suicide, you know, I'm not, I'm not like the, the client person,
and I'm, and I'm not on medication. Uh, so I mean, I have, I used to be, but not anymore. So I,
like, I have own issues and I struggle with it. I think everybody that's on a computer is,
as much as me or, you know, laterally, the, some of these, everybody's got mental problems.
You either got assburgers or OCD or ADHD or bipolar disorder or some, some kind of mental
given a name. Um, and everybody that kind of, it's a degree of separation away from him,
you know, said that he wasn't, uh, that he had suffered from, you know, mental depression or,
or clinical depression. And so, so it wouldn't. And, and I guess this, this, the, the looming sentence
was weighing heavily on him. Um, jail doesn't scare me as much because it, it's a time for me to sit
and read and, and play chess with myself and not have any good bother me. So, uh, if they want to
send me to jail, I'm, I'm more than happy to take the vacation. Um, but, uh, then, you know,
somebody, so I do, I don't think there's any kind of weird conspiracy, uh, at, at work, um,
in, in that. And again, the people they said that know him that are a degree of separation.
They don't, it's not some kind of out of character. Just as much, I'm sure that if I turned up dead,
uh, and even if it was foul play, people that know me know me would be like, uh, he probably,
he probably shot it himself or something. So, it's, it's actually comforting to hear. I'm glad
to hear you say that you, you know, that you buy the story because I, you know, I've heard,
I've heard a couple of people online, you know, or read, you know, where people say that
they don't buy it, but it's, it's comforting to hear that the story fits. Um, so, uh, I don't know,
you mentioned Bradley Manning. I don't know if you heard. Uh, there was a, a minor ruling in the case
the other day. Um, did you hear about that one? Uh, I'm, I follow, um, a non news, uh, and he, uh,
he got the, they, they ruled that he was treated badly. Uh, that thing that, that, no, the one
that I heard was the judge said that the, if I'm any, if I'm getting this right and I could get
this screwed up because it was a couple of days ago that I heard it, but the judge said that the,
the government cannot charge him with treason unless they can prove that what he did intentionally
was intended to harm the country. So they're saying that, um, you know, that as the story goes right
now, he actually combed through that material and intentionally did not release like logistical
stuff and, and situational stuff that he was, he stuck with the political stuff. So it, it doesn't,
like, you're gonna be able to charge him with treason. That's good. Just, just diet treason.
There's a, like, yeah, right. Treason light. Treason light. Uh, yeah, and that's why I said,
there's like, the huge, just like, computer crime is such a, like, uh, it's two words that can
mean anything, like, really? Like, so there's a whole spectrum, you know, just like, there's,
with murder, you have manslaughter, you have vehicular manslaughter, you have degrees of murder,
premeditated, not premeditated crime of passion. Like those same types of, I guess, that spectrum
needs to be, uh, you know, a lot of what the corporate guys, you know, do like on this huge scale,
or they're building people out of money in these Ponzi schemes and, and, and the, the Wall Street
culture, like, there has to be like this intent-based dissemination of, of what it, if it's a kid having
fun, you know, even if he is like hacking, you know, government agencies or whatever, if it's not
for the purposes of, you know, complete and utter destruction of the infrastructure of the United
States, then you need to treat it that way. You can't treat it the same as if somebody, you know,
did something, you know, ridiculous. So there's a, I, I hope that every, you know, again, there's
so much in the powers of the courts that like, it can be a judge's interpretation. And then,
you know, when you leave it to a 12 people to decide in a jury or whatever, there's so many things
they can go wrong in a sense where, these things need to line up properly. Uh, then you can have a good
judge, you know, that gives you, you know, no time at all and understands the case, or there's some
that are just very old-fashioned, and they, you know, they know what it's like to have a computer,
but other than that, they don't, they can't, they can't rule on a case like, like this properly.
Yeah, definitely. So what do you think we need to do about it? I mean, it's not like,
it's not like our legislators understand any of this and, and can write better laws. I mean,
they're the people they're in the pockets of, you know, they're the ones that wrote, you know,
it's Sopa and Pippa and Acta and all this, you know, these other laws that are overreaching and,
and repressive and, you know, anti-freedom as well. I mean, what, what, what's the next step then?
Well, I'll be enough, like, not to put you on the spot.
Oh, like, but like to tie this back, like into the, like my music, like, there's a lot of
nerd core that exists that's kind of this secret handshake that's like a four nerds,
binders type of, type of music. And, and what, one of the goals that I've always had in my
music is to, like, I, I wrap in a way that's palatable to like your average hip hop listener,
or whatever. Like, it's a lot of people that give me great feedback. Like, that's your flow
sounds amazing, your beats sound amazing. So, and it's the same way that I was, you know, taken in by
this gangster rap culture and I listened to it and I just detected the rawness and, and I had
the picture of the streets in my head, that same type of, I would love for that same type of thing to
happen, you know, across, like, it reciprocated back, like, where, you know, I have kids from the
street that are listening to the types of things that I'm saying, and they're learning like the
lingo of the computers rather than, you know, the lingo of drugs, like, they're learning about,
you know, the types of things that I'm saying. And so, by extension, like awareness, like,
the computer is not a device to be feared. It's a device that we embrace. It's a device that
every one of us uses. Like, it's not just nerds on computers anymore. Now, everybody's got Facebook.
Everybody has a smartphone. Everybody has these, these technological devices. And so, the more that,
I think, people are educated, you know, even from elementary school, like, if you taught people,
like, good password best practices for passwords and, and, you know, protection of online identity.
Like, if those types of educational initiatives were in place, then I think the, the country would
have the same way we were enamored with reality TV and politics and, and, you know, American
idol and stuff. If we could instill that same type of simplistic wonder in what a computer is,
then I think a lot more people would understand the concepts that, like, you know, the, the,
these kids, you know, if you can kind of draw these parallels and say, well, you know, this is
the same as a kid throwing a rock through window. And this is the same as a guy, you know,
robbing a bank at gunpoint type of thing. Like, that just by kind of turning the public on
of those types of things, I think is the best way to increase the consciousness and, therefore,
the visibility of, you know, what everything really means. Rather than this scary machine and
everyone's out to get you type of, you know, picture painted by the media currently.
So we need, like, a reality show for nerd core and, and nerds and computer geeks and, and,
and we need to popularize that a little bit. Yes. Keeping up with the K-rad.
Nice. So, all right. So when you talk about, you know, how the kids on the street and whatever
are, or, or other people you talk to, listen to the same stuff, what's, um, if anybody hears this
interview and goes and checks you out, and, and they like what you're doing, who are some other
nerd core artists that you would, or even, even regular hip hop artists, maybe that people don't
know about, but, you know, on, on the sort of the up and comers or, or on the underground scene,
who are some people, some artists that you would direct people towards? I always leave people out
when that's good. Like, yeah, I, I won't ask for a complete list. You, you can never do that.
I don't mean to do that. Sorry. Okay. Uh, spiritually, um, there's this group dual core, and that's,
uh, this guy in 80 in the studio 6664, um, and they perform at DefCon, uh, and so they're actually
fairly well known in, in the computer security circle. And, uh, we're, we're actually about two
degrees separated from them here at Hacker Public Radio, because one of our contributors, uh,
is a guy by the name of Dave Yates, who's a fantastic guy, and he did a podcast, um, the lot of Linux
links, Linux user podcast. It was a long game. Sorry. And, and dual core to the intro music for him,
and it was, it was badass. It was great. So we're, we're like two degrees separated from them.
So, so everybody knows about them. So not to cut you off, but yeah, we're there. Yeah. And then,
again, those are probably like the closest, like, because then, like MC Lars, who's a frequent
collaborator in mind, he's like a lit hop guy, uh, because he's, he's got a degree in 19th century
literature from Stanford, and, and then, you know, front a lot, uh, all the name, like mega ran,
he, this guy random, he's actually touring very successfully, uh, and he does a lot of the chiptune
stuff, the eight-bit type of music, and, and, uh, among others, but he's, he, him, there used to be
this time, or as it's like kind of this really small echelon of a group of us that could tour and,
and be successful at it. And, and now that's kind of grown. There's like, I'd say the bigger guys are,
like, Adam Warwick, um, Dr. Awkward is, is touring with random right now. Oh, man, Dr. Awkward
is there's something about a good Awkward song that within three or four beats, you switch off
the rest of the world, and your headphones becomes all of it.
Dick, uh, I've had the pleasure kicking him with that guy many times, uh, we, we go in, um,
he, there's a, there's, there's this, there used to be this huge, like, set skill break, like,
all type stuff, but now, I mean, everybody that I, you know, generationally, like, like Benjamin
Bayer, I just did some stuff with him, and, and he's got some really witty stuff, uh, DJ Snyder,
uh, Slash Swagberg, Slash, is a really prolific, oh, that's who is, is Snyder, he's Swagberg,
he's Goldman Stacks, is the MC horse, MC horse, he might, he's got a song like pony,
pony, pony Swaggers, and uh, maybe he is MC horse, and he's got, like, a case is, is cool
key, so he's hard to keep up with, but yeah, again, like, exhaustively, beefy is, uh,
sign an NSR, he's kind of doing his own, he's been doing his own thing for a while now,
I haven't really helped him, I'm, I'm a terrible man. Can you say it last one again, you cut out,
you'd said beefy, who, by the way, is nerdcore hip hop, and who, who, did you say after beefy?
beefy, he, he, he was, I signed him the NSR, uh, nerdy south records, uh, but he's been doing
everything by himself lately, so I said, I've been a terrible label mate, I'm not, our label
head or whatever, I'm not, uh, I haven't really been developing his, his career, uh, as, as
much as I should, I barely developed my own, uh, for Christchurch, so I don't know, but, uh, there's
this, again, like, the, the, the cool thing about this, the scene is it's consistently, you know,
kind of evolving and growing and stuff, and, and I'm, generally, there's a lot of stuff I'm
sure I'm missing out on, like the next big thing, uh, you know, in it, um, part of it is because I've
always been kind of in a, in a weird spot, uh, with my own music, but, um, yeah, there's just so much,
like, crazy, I don't know, it's just, and, but, again, dual core is my most, like, my closest relative,
I would say, as far as, uh, you know, the music stuff goes in, and part of the thing that I always
liked about the type of music I was doing is in hip hop, there's another huge thing that's,
it's called biting, you know, and you never want to bite another guy's lyrics, uh, because that's,
it's like, it's like stealing jokes as a comedian or whatever, and one thing I was always confident in,
is if I was wrapping about computers and hacking and the way that I do, there was nobody else
that had said the things that I had said, or made the rhymes or the connections that I had made, and so,
by extension, you know, wraps acts like dual core, and I, like, we are forging this entire, like,
palette and body of work that, if five years from now, another hacker came on the scene and tried
to wrap about a fucking blue box, like, I've said everything there is a say about that, so, uh, you know,
I can, I can sue them for everything that they're worth, and they're, they're, I'll throw lawsuits at you,
but, uh, it's just, um, funny, right on, right on, and okay, so you mentioned how people
love your flow and your beats, um, I'm trying to end this, but there's, there's so much I want to ask,
you said you, uh, you played guitar, you, you played guitar in your own music, too?
That's you on those? Yeah, I've done guitar on my own side. A lot of my beats, I produce a lot of
my own beats, too, uh, but some, some of the guitars are not my, a lot of I played guitar on some
of my stuff. I've been playing guitar for 15 years. I was in a punk band, uh, called Formula
4 and 9 in high school, uh, but yeah, I'm, like, classic rock through and through, like,
Led Zeppelin, Eric Clapton, um, stepping wolf, three dog night, like,
off, uh, clean and clear water revival, like, the type of stuff that I play guitar. I,
in a lot of 90s, I mean, I guess part of the time period I was in, I mean, I learned all in
Irvana and plugged. I think that was like the first thing I taught myself was that whole album and,
but yeah, guitar is always been, I love the guitar and the piano because they're, like,
two instruments that you could take to a party and become the most important person in the room.
You can't take a trumpet and be like, yeah, everybody check this out.
And then immediately everybody's singing along. So, uh, yeah, I've always had a love for
the guitar. Did you play guitar on, uh, on this far from the spam tech album? Was that you?
That was, uh, what the hell was that guy's name? Johnny Sumpton. Uh, that was another producer.
Um, I mean, I could play the riff, uh, if I had a guitar, but that wasn't, that wasn't,
that wasn't me. No, uh, go. All right. Sorry about that.
Maybe, maybe there's less of that than I think there is. I remember I did like these covers of
song, like on YouTube, you can see, uh, I used to just get, um, intoxicated and, and make, uh,
YouTube covers of songs and stuff like that. So you could find whity cracker cover songs.
All day on, on YouTube. Right on. So, um, yeah, I, I don't want to take anywhere your time.
I, as, as, as awesome and as fun as this is. Um, so I'll let you, I'll ask you a question.
Let you think about it while I finish it up. Um, but we're, uh, we're a creative commons podcast.
So, uh, you know, we released basically creative commons, uh, by attribution, uh, share like.
And, uh, I'm wondering if you, if there's any of your music that's released under that, uh, license,
uh, can, can we close it out with a song? Um, but then I'll just say, you know, if, uh, is there a
place that people can follow you so we know when you're on tour and, uh, how can we get to a show?
And, uh, you know, if you're ever up in the, the Northeast of the country, if you're doing Boston
or, or any enclosed to that, definitely hit me up so we can hang out or, or, or, you know, maybe I can
show you around a little bit or, or, you know, at least go to your show and buy a t-shirt or something.
I, uh, I don't have the real, I mean, it's, uh, oddly enough, it's, I, I'm very familiar with
creative commons and everything. I, my, some of my music, like, I don't need, because that's
sampled or whatever, like, I don't even own the rights to, you know, push whatever I say. Uh, but,
like, let this be a verbal agreement that any type of music of mine that you want to use, uh,
any song that speaks to you, you have my permission, uh, wholeheartedly to use, modify,
the whole mind, um, but, uh, the, yeah, the tour thing, I, I mean, my Twitter is real Whidecracker,
uh, because I don't have Whidecracker. And, uh, then, um, my, uh, Facebook's Whidecracker,
um, Whidecracker.com is my website, but, uh, I'd, and I kicked this around a lot. My, again,
my daughter is the most important human being on the planet to me. So, uh, I tried to avoid
being away for extended periods of time. Usually when I do, did, do tours, like, it was,
you know, while she was still in school and, and her mother had, had her, but, you know,
during the summer, which is like, heavy festival, like, when I could be doing warped and everything,
I, I usually am just kind of, I may do one or two one offs in there, but most of the time,
I spend with my daughter. So until she's, you know, the age where she's coming with me and
back of dancing or singing on, on my stuff, so that's pretty much how it is.
Yeah, I totally get that. My, my kids, uh, I get very limited, limited time with them as well.
It's, uh, yeah, I try to spend as much time as possible with her, because, um, I think it's important
to be a father and, and, I mean, even though things kind of happen out of order, you know, in,
in my life, like, I, I think that I said, I'd rather have those, like, not have that regret,
like, where I just totally screwed up my kids' life because I was too busy chasing, um,
uh, some stupid music dream than otherwise.
But yeah, you'll find me, you'll find where you'll find me. I mean, I announced stuff on there.
Awesome. Awesome. So, um, yeah, so then now, what, is there, do you have a song, a favorite song of
yours or a song that you, you would like us to close out with or that you'd like us to play here at
the end? I don't have, uh, I don't have it. I was just even saying this. I don't, I don't play
my own stuff enough, uh, to know sometimes, like, after I'm done writing a song, I don't even,
I record it and then I don't even listen to it again for a month and then, uh, until I need to
perform it live and then I need to, like, learn my own, my own songs. All right, I'll, I'll pick one
and, and paste it in there then. I'll pick one of my favorites because there's, there's a bunch of,
I was, I was hoping you'd help me narrow them down as all. All right, but yeah, if you pack
us privilege, it's your, your choice. Awesome. So, uh, thanks so much to Whitey Cracker, the,
the digital gangster, the DG, uh, Mighty Whitey for coming on hacker public radio and helping us out
here. Uh, it's, it's been a fantastic interview and, and a lot of fun to record. I'm hoping it's a
lot of fun to listen to and, uh, I mean, you're the man, dude, you're, you're just baller for coming
on here and, and spending the time. Thanks a lot. It wasn't a complete waste of time.
One noise to my time. I had a blast. So, thank you so much. And, uh, thanks to everybody for listening.
Check out Whitey Cracker. Check out his new album at whiteycracker.bandcamp.com. You can look at
the show notes on hacker public radio.org, uh, to, to get links to everything that Whitey's mentioned
here. And, uh, please leave a comment here or leave a comment on, uh, on his webpage, his blog
whiteycracker.com. I'm sure he'll probably write a little, a little blog post about this
when the episode airs. And, uh, and thanks for listening. Whitey, thanks for being my guest. And, uh,
I hope you guys, everybody have a great day. Thank you.
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey
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hey hey hey hey
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hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey oh hey yeah hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey no hey you know
what I do yet a faking real madman, you good and smarter a bad who knows?
He was a podcaster. I guess he guessed it on one of the radio-freak America shows, which
I mean, this is before RSS even, when RFA was out. And then he did, fuck, what was it?
Oh shit. Ben rev, binary revolution. He was the host of binary revolution. And then
Ben rev, red, toot radio, which is today with a techie. That's where Stankdog came
for you. He did, he did binary revolution radio. Yep. He did Ben rev, and then he did
toot radio. And then he did HPR when he got done with that. So HPR came from him and
droops. A guy named droops and droops did the coding behind the site. And Stankdog set
up the, the financials behind the server. And then they didn't walk away. I mean, they're
still there, but they don't participate anymore. They just kind of, they're there, you
know, and everybody else comes in and does it. And we've, like I said, we're, we're probably,
I'm sure we're over what 11, we've got to be over 1100 shows by now. Yeah, 1169 was
today's show. So, I mean, that's, that's a lot of shows. No, definitely, that's insanity.
Yep. And then we did last year and this year, we did New Year's Eve shows. So last year
was a 12 hour show. We decided we do 12 hours to give anybody from anywhere, plenty of
time to call in and be a part of it. We wanted it to be a round table where everybody was
welcome. And that was such a success that we went 24 hours this year. And it still wasn't
long enough. Crazy. That's awesome, though. Like, it could be people from all around the
world. I'm sure too. It's like, oh, yeah. You have like a 24 hours of science going
on. Yeah, absolutely. And we get into everything science, politics, food, computers. We're,
we're a real like heavily Linux oriented community, I would say. And unintentionally,
that's just, that's the kind of people that have, you know, grouped around it. That's
so crazy. Like, that's awesome, though. I've done quite a few like podcasts and stuff.
I used to be like, I used to have a shout-cast radio station. It was like fairly popular.
It's called a whitey cracker shower of power. And I used to stuff. It's like back when there
was, there was a hacker TV called parse. This was like when streaming like real, real
media was like streaming. It's like that. There was, and it was so ambitious at the time
because this is like before broadband was super simple. It's like six kick streaming type
of stuff. And it was really like, it's insane because just kind of like how you had that
whole break and hip hop, like with the misogyny, like, and then you just decided to take a,
take a break. The same thing is kind of with this stuff is it's, it's amazing to me to
see like all these shows and, you know, the podcasting like that. It's like a phenomenon,
you know, where people would stick them on their iPods and they go for a run, you know
what I mean, and just like have something to listen to. Like, and that's such a, like,
it's a good old concept. Like it's something that I never did myself or I haven't even,
you know, considered doing anything. It's, it's, I mean, for a, for a certain segment
of, you know, the population of Earth, it's, it's the way to get media to people because
it's, it's once someone picks up podcasts and they become a podcast listener, they turn
their radio off forever and they never turn it back on. And I know a handful of guys
that have turned off their television as well and never turned it back on. Like, I, I, I
don't own a television. I haven't owned a television in like eight years. I know another
guy who's never owned one since he, you know, became an adult. And I know a couple of
the people who just don't have them anymore. And these are guys that, you know, well,
my television is my monitor, my computer. So yeah, you all that, that's true too. I got
a cop to that that I do, I do see, you know, more than I intend to see, you know, through
the monitor. But so I do have to cop to that. But yeah, I mean, it's just people don't
even listen to the radio anymore. And then when, when somebody turns on a podcast to
listen to it, they went and they got that intentionally. This, this is not a casual
listener. This is somebody who's involved in a thing. I mean, if they were just going
to be a casual listener, there's plenty of free audio books and, and, you know, to listen
to and put on in the background while you're working. But that's, you know, people seem
to listen to podcasts for a reason. And that's really, really cool to know that you've got
somebody's attention.
I feel that same way with music. Like, it's blows my mind because, you know, I started
doing it like in my basement for myself or whatever. And I'm like, you know, to know that
like, there's, you know, when I can go to like some odd town and there's a kid in the
front row who knows every line that every song I'm doing, like that is, it's such a
weird experience. I mean, it's just like how I can relate to this type of thing, like
where it's like, it's amazing to have people like seek your stuff out and then care about
it and want to, you know, listen to it and interact with it, you know, to even be a part.
But what's, what I was, the reason I'm asking though is like, if you guys just have these
like crazy hosts, like, because I have access to some odd, because I have this weird, weird
crossover in my life, like where I know a lot of like famous people like that are like
regular famous, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so like, but there are people like, like
friends is like in electronic music or something. And it would be, I think it'd be really cool
to do like a podcast, like an interview with, you know, some of them, you know, like what
I would host it or whatever. And then, um, fuck yeah, dude, please. I think it'd be kind
of funny to do something like that, just as a guest host, but, uh, and there's no restriction
on language by the way. You don't have to censor people at all. You can let them
curse up a storm or talk about whatever they're willing to talk about. I don't usually
talk that way because I like the idea of, you know, maybe listening to the show with
my kids or whatever or somebody, you know, listen with their kids. So I don't do that personally,
but there's plenty of people who do and we're not, you know, nobody poo poo's it, but do
it. Yeah. If you want to, if you want to host a show and record a podcast, hell, yeah,
we're all about that. Like I said, probably plan what it would be more of, but I, and I
wondered about that too, because I said shit and then you didn't correct me. And so then
I, I think I said shit twice or three times and I said, fuck one. So I didn't know if it's
one of those because I've been on, yes, some ones where it's like, you have to bleep you
on the thing. And I'm not, sometimes I have a really filthy mouth, but for the most part,
it's just like, I think that it's kind of like the garnish, you know, on a dinner plate,
like as long as you use profanity in a tasteful manner, it has eloquence about it, I guess.
Yeah, for sure. And it's contextual as well. I mean, you can't, you know, you don't talk
the same way with your, with your buds when you're out on a Friday night as you do when
you with your parents. I mean, as long as you can, you know, make that distinction for yourself,
then I don't know, there's nothing wrong with it. Oh, for sure. Oh, man, some of this has been
fast. And I'm going to have to paste some of this back into the, the part of the show after I
said we were done. This has really been cool, dude. Yeah, I like to say anything else you need
for me to give me a holler. I'm sorry, it took so long to get off the ground. I've been in,
I don't like sound. I don't know if you can hear it. I'm a little head congested, but hopefully
that clears up shortly. I heard it at first. I definitely heard it at first. You sounded like you
were clearing out throughout the, throughout the interview, but I'll do that. I know what you're
going through because I've had, I've been on antibiotics three times now. And this last one was
a double dose. And it still just hasn't fucking touched this shit like my nose is just on fire
constantly. Like me, I'm all about like building and conditioning my immune system. Yeah,
carrying me into old age because at this point, it's just so much like you get in these confined
spaces. And again, like I'm constantly hugging shaking hands, like doing something. So invariably,
I wind up getting, it never, it doesn't form me the way it used to. Like I used to get sick and I
couldn't even do anything. But now I just get, I mean, I'm sick and I wind, but I can move around
and do things. So it's good. Yeah, this year when I caught whatever the hell this thing has
had cold or flew whatever it is the first time I've ever gotten sick and been afraid of it.
I've never been scared of being sick before. And I was scared with this one because I was getting
like dizzy and like dizzy spells just out of the blue. And it wouldn't, it wouldn't look dizzy.
Like the room isn't spinning, but it still felt like it was. And that scared the hell out of me.
I went to the doctor. I was so afraid.
Exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I, me, I just like, honestly, if something as simple as
the flu takes me out, then, you know, I wasn't built for this world anyway. Like,
ring the bell, put me in the wood grain ring the bell. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so all right,
I'm going to, I'm going to run because it's been a while here. I need to grab some dinner and
another quick shot. But dude, yeah, if you want to do anything on Hacker Public Radio at all,
it's just hpr at hackerpublicradio.com is the email address and we'll get you any information
you need. And we're basically with, what they're doing now, they're trying to script it all.
So that somebody, all they have to do is just upload the show to the FTP and they're, they're working
on the website. They want to build just something. You just, you know, click browse the file and
find it. And then the, the server on the back end will add the intro and the outro music and
it'll paste your show notes in and everything at the right and adds all the ID3 tags and everything.
But it's, it's, it's coming along slowly, but what they're doing is good work on the back end.
But yeah, if you want to do any of that, you either just shoot me an email or email HPR at Hacker
Public Radio and we will, for sure, get you anything you need to, to complete a project like that.
And I will, I will suggest if you're going to do it with, you know, multiple people and you're
going to do it over the net like this, the new hotness is a program called mumble. And it's,
it beats the hell out of this Skype thing. I'll tell you that.
Um, like I said, I've done the ventrilo, like, like I have, because I mean, I obviously, I have a
lot of professional equipment like for recording and stuff like that. So I could do, I mean, there's,
there's a million ways that I can patch phones in or Skype's and like, I use like soundplower on
the Mac like to do like different audio configuration routings and I'm mixing boards or anything.
So I mean, if I wanted to get super technical, um, but yeah, I think mumble is like the,
it's like the spiritual successor to ventrilo and team speaking or like that.
Pre-shirts for games, isn't it? Like, yeah, originally it was designed for games, but it,
it works so well that like every podcast or is well, I don't know about the professional guys,
they, you know, the guys are getting paid to do this. But, you know, as far as, you know, volunteers
and, and, you know, amateurs, we're all just using mumble and, and all you do to set it up
is just ask everybody to use push-to-talk instead of the automatic vox type thing. And if everybody
just remembers to hit that button to laugh at your jokes, it sounds very, very natural and extraordinarily
clean. Even if you, even if you don't multitrack it and just do it a single track, it's, it sounds so clean.
That's it. I'll take knowledge. Yeah, it is, it is bad-ass. You just need, you just need a server
and it doesn't even need, it doesn't even take any bandwidth. It just, I mean, I can run a server
out of my house and have a completely clean conversation on mumble. It's, it's, it's awesome.
But, uh, yeah, technology's always been a wicked fun, a whole lot of fun. And yeah,
dude, if you're ever up in the Northeast, let me know and, uh, I'll definitely find time, at least
to go to a show. I can't wait to hear you music and, uh, I can't, I can't wait to start getting
some feedback on the, uh, the episode here. I think, I think, I, I, we don't get too, too much
feedback out in the open. People, we just, our system sadly isn't built for it, but you may
get an email or two. I wouldn't be surprised. Great, definitely. Because I know, I, I don't know
about you, but I would assume, I mean, for me, I do it for the feedback. That's it. Do it for,
like, because sometimes it's, it's crazy because like to, to sort of the questions that you're asking
and then, like, the way that, like, it's odd because I, it's kind of like therapy in a way,
in some senses, because when people ask you certain questions of the way they're there,
word it or something, then you, some clicks and you're just like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.
Like, I, and I, I love Howard Stern. Like, that, that guy, he's podcasting before podcasting
type of thing. Like, I love watching and listening to Howard Stern, like, the way that he interviews
people, because he says that since he has ADD, like, he can sense when the audience is boring
or getting bored. Like, so if he's having, if he has a line of questioning that he knows isn't,
like, panning out, then he switches the subject real quick. And like, when it's cool doing these
things, because then when you do interview and you're doing feedback and you're getting that constant,
like, call response type of thing, it makes you think in a certain way that maybe you didn't look
at a situation before or something. And, and oddly enough, you know, you get asked, like,
what is nerd core? You know, how did you get into a nerd core? Like, that kind of stuff happens,
you know, frequently or whatever. But like, in the computer security context, like, how,
what's the marriage of these things? Like, that's, you know, something that's, maybe I haven't
looked at so much, you know, because there's, there's, how many places you're going to do,
you're going to do a hacker public radio or DEF CON radio or bin rev or, you know, there's only,
like, a limited venues where they're going to say, like, well, how does, you know, phone freaking
fit in with your ethos or something? And so there's, like, a whole different crazy thing, I think,
every time I do an interview, depending on who it is or what it's for, like, you have, like,
it's an odd approach. And I've done, like, another, like, a hacker thing. I think that was, like,
last year, I think it was, but there's always interesting stuff that comes out of these things.
I find it fun. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I got to say that, you know, it's stirring,
having the ability to sense when, when the audience is getting bored isn't that hard, but knowing
the next question to go to when that happens or knowing, knowing how to move on is so tough to do.
I interviewed, uh, Stalman, Richard Stalman. And I had to, like, I didn't know, I was so
intimidated beforehand that I just went into our IRC channel and was asking, but what would you
ask Stalman if you had the chance to talk to him? And that's what I went to the interview with,
like, everybody else's questions, because I knew I couldn't handle it on my own.
What does new stand for? What do you, you know, can only imagine, like, the amount of,
again, the questions is like, that's why I always, again, interviewers that are good, like,
and this is, you know, I just, I always feel like I'm boring, because I feel like it's just, like,
stupid. And, you know, you feel like you're talking yourself, especially when you're on TV or,
you know, in, in a studio or something, it's one thing, because there's like a, you get like
that instant feedback of somebody's, like, face, or you can kind of detect their, like,
microreaction or whatever, but, you know, what it's, these types of things, these voice things
over the internet, it's just so difficult to be like, it's like, I'm just talking to my computer
monitor, like, I don't know if it's going on. Yeah, it definitely takes some getting used to,
and it's a little, it's a little more organic when, you know, like, for instance, with mumble,
where I can key up and just say, yeah, definitely, or chime in or something, just to let you know that
you're, it sounds a little pretentious to say to let you know when you're on the right track,
with the same thing. I can, the only way I can kind of phrase it right now, but with, with,
Skype here, every time I unmute my microphone, it, it kills you, and I can't even hear you,
and I know it's not going to be recorded, and I'm going to boost it up, and it's going to sound like
shit. And then when I unmute, it takes a second for you to come back, so I couldn't do that tonight.
Right. Okay. No, that's fine. I'm like, that, those are, that's why technology sucks sometimes.
It's, it's not, it doesn't, it doesn't work the way we want it to all the time, but I'm just,
just in a general sense, it's like, it's odd like, because there's people that tell me like,
oh, yeah, that's a good interview, or I interview sucked, or you're boring. It's just,
my, it, it trust me out every time, you're just like, I mean, because, and I said, when I grew up,
it's like the BBS scene, and everything, which is very like, it was a big local thing, but you
didn't have the internet. And now, you know, when some person in Sri Lanka, like, emails you,
and it's like, great job. You're like, how the fuck do you, you know, like, what, what, how is
this, this global shit is crazy insanity? How the hell does this work? Dude, totally, I mentioned on
one podcast that I pretty much haven't bought a computer, like ever, like since 2001, and I just
kind of recycle other people's used stuff and just put it back to you. And, and I mentioned that,
and a dude from the Netherlands sent me a motherboard with a processor and ram and a cool, or on it.
It was insane. Yeah. Random maximum technology. And T, he sent me a single serving of T,
also in the box with the computer. Sit while you installed your new motherboard.
I don't know how to brew tea. It didn't come in a bag. It's like, it's not in a, it's not in a tea bag.
I don't know if I can brew tea. It's still sitting on my counter. Oh, well, at least you can,
maybe, like, make a necklace out of it or something, wear around your neck, keep them.
Right. I get some glue and white paper and do macaroni art with it. What a jerk I'd be.
