Episode: 1852
Title: HPR1852: Operation Wallacea
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1852/hpr1852.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-18 10:10:36

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This is HPR Episode 1852 entitled Operation 1Azier, it is hosted by Dave Morris and is about 29 minutes long.
The summary is, I talk to my daughter about a recent trip to Indonesia.
This episode of HPR is brought to you by an Honesthost.com.
Get 15% discount on all shared hosting with the offer code HPR15, that's HPR15.
Better web hosting that's Honest and Fair at An Honesthost.com.
Hello everybody, this is Dave Morris. Today I'm sitting at the kitchen table talking to my daughter Clara.
It's currently the end of August and the summer vacation is moving towards its close in the UK.
Soon Clara will be heading back to university for her second year.
This vacation has been quite an interesting and busy one for Clara.
I'd like just to talk about what she's been doing because I think it might be her interest.
So Clara, you were out of the country for several weeks from June this year.
Where were you and what were you doing?
Well, I was away for four weeks. I was in an island called Hoga, which is in Indonesia.
It's part of the Wakitoba natural reserve in Indonesia.
It's a very hard place to spot if you look for it on a map.
Yeah, it's really remote.
Yeah, incredibly and very, very tiny and it's near to the island of Sulawesi.
Near the Walla Sea Align.
And Walla Sea is a name given to that region, isn't it?
Yeah, it was named the Walla Sea Align because it marks a split in biodiversity through Indonesia.
And it's named after the scientist Alfordresser Walls.
Right, it was a contemporary of Darwin and a collaborator with Darwin at various points, wasn't it?
Okay, I find that really quite exciting that that's to exist.
The company I was working with as well was named Walla Sea.
It's called Operation Walla Sea because Walla Sea is where Indonesia is where it first started operating.
It's a company that is a nonprofit organization that works with conservation
and sort of monitoring biodiversity in very remote areas.
Right, okay.
And they have those sort of base of operations out there, don't they?
Yeah, well they have different projects in lots of different countries.
Yes, but they have one there in particular.
Yeah, that's where they started.
So how did you happen to get involved with this thing then?
How do you invite it?
Well, it was a, we had a meeting at the university.
I think it was a group leader leader sort of event where basically that's someone
who has previously worked with Operation Walla Sea who wants to go out and do another project with them.
Right.
And they basically get all the sort of information and resources from Operation Walla Sea
then go to university and advertise it.
And depending on how many people they get to sign up, they get a discount on the next expedition.
So as they say they get 10 people sign up, that's basically all the expedition paid for.
Right, right.
So as I understand it, this Operation Walla Sea is largely funded through having students come out
and volunteers and everything.
The students paying to be there is really what's funding their projects.
I'll be putting a link to their website in the notes for this show.
So if anybody is interested in going to look for the details there.
But it required you to get some funding to do this, didn't it?
Yeah, yeah. They recommend you go out and do fundraising, which didn't exactly work out.
I didn't have a bit of money but not as much as I hoped to because we had a few people
and say Andrews who were interested in fundraising but they just didn't,
like they didn't seem very organised and we didn't really organise any big group events.
Right, right.
And there's not a lot of fundraising opportunities and perhaps in a small time like some Andrews.
It's very difficult and I mean like the only things we were thinking of,
a few options like selling stuff, like food outside of the library.
But then there's so much competition from societies from the university to do that sort of thing.
Right, but you applied for a grant, didn't you?
Yeah, yeah, that was another thing they recommended you doing.
So Operation Walla Sea themselves had a grant called the Alpha Russell Walla grant
inspired by Alpha Russell Walla because he was the person who discovered and named the Walla Sea Align.
And you had to write about yourself and also write about Alpha Russell Walla and...
Right, you had to do an essay type of thing.
Yeah, yeah.
And then based on that, you either didn't get a grant.
Yeah.
And you did.
I did get a grant.
Yeah, that was very cool.
I think probably a bit of politics involved in that because I think they sort of like to pick,
based on what I've seen for previous years, they like to pick one person each from each university.
So I think, especially because St Andrews as well as quite a sort of prestigious Scottish university,
they were like, right, we're going to have one person from St Andrews.
So I think I like, I didn't really have much competition because there weren't many people from St Andrews who were going.
Yeah, yeah.
It was like maybe one or two people other than me.
So I didn't really have that much competition.
So it worked out quite well.
You headed off in June and you were aware that there were going to be a bunch of other people flying out there.
As well, weren't you?
Yeah, yeah.
So how long did it take you to get there?
You probably can't remember in detail, but just tell us about what sort of trip it was.
It was a very long journey.
Very much.
As well over 30 hours in total as I recall.
Yeah.
So there was like about three or four planes I had to take.
So there was one, I took one trip from Edinburgh to Qatar.
And then from Qatar to Jakarta and Indonesia.
And then another plane from Jakarta to Makasa, which is another island in Indonesia.
And as we went all the planes were getting smaller and smaller.
That was also in Sulawesi, I think.
Yeah, each one was about seven hours and second was nine.
And then the third, I think, was about four hours.
I can't remember.
And then we took a plane from Makasa out to Waikatoobi.
Waikatoobi is the name of an island chain out there.
It's named after the initial letters of the islands I just got in.
Yeah, yeah.
And that was a really small plane.
Like about a hundred people fit in.
Yeah, it was quite...
That journey on that plane took about two hours.
Right, right.
That was a little turbo plane.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And then once you've got to the islands, what happened then?
We sort of landed in land.
So we got put in cars and taken out to the coast where they had a dock.
And we went on a boat, a really rickety sort of boat.
They had like...
The windows were just sort of open rectangles in the boat.
And they had to sort of pull up this wooden bit so that the water didn't splash in.
And they were like, don't sit on the floors because the water will flood in and you'll get wet.
So sit on top of this like...
They had a sort of under boat thing to put on luggage in.
And it had like a top to it.
So we all had to sort of sit on that.
All right.
Keep out of the water that was coming into the boat.
Yeah, yeah.
So here above the water level.
But it made...
I mean, there's lots and lots of transport around between those islands.
So whoever was running this obviously did this every day.
Not every day, every week because that's when we would get new people in.
But possibly doing it for other people as well, shipping people around between the islands.
I think that big boat...
That big boat was specifically for up walls.
Oh right, okay.
I think the locals...
Because it's a very fishing heavy community.
Especially it's very close to an island called Senpel.
Some of you might recognize it because it's famous for being this village out in the ocean.
It's been built out in the ocean.
And the residents of it used to be nomadic fishermen.
And they used to live their whole lives out in the ocean in little boats.
And they were pressured by the Indonesian government to settle.
So yeah, it's a very...
The community around the area is very sort of centered around fishing.
So a lot of people, all the locals, sort of own the own boat.
So that's how...
Usually that's how they travel out.
Okay, okay.
That was a...
That was a car with boat Jenny.
And we got there.
And nobody was seeing Sik and hope.
No, no one threw up.
No, okay.
So then you were finally on Hogar Island.
Yeah.
And so what was that like once you got there?
What was your impression of it?
It's a really lovely place.
It's very...
You could imagine it being pictures of it being advertised in like a brochure as like a sort of exotic paradise.
Yes, yes, it's a paradise island.
It was kind of...
It was also kind of doing it at the same time.
It was like...
It's exciting but dangerous.
Like we got there and we got a big presentation on everything that could kill us.
That's nice.
From both animals and the train.
Yeah.
Because there were paths had been constructed throughout the island and we were told we can't go past certain points
because partly because it was owned by the locals and also because like they didn't have proper paths built there.
And like we had to...
Because there were no lights when we went out to our hearts at night.
We had to carry tortures and we had to stick to the path because if we went off the path you could fall into a coral hole.
And that...
These big, big, JD Rocky holes.
And they were like, yeah, you probably won't find you in there.
Or at least you'll get really badly stripped out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So...
You'll be there all night positive.
Really somebody finds you or something.
And there's lots of...
Whoa!
There's commode dragons in there.
Really?
I don't...
I don't know.
I don't know about commode dragons.
Okay.
I mean it is...
There's the area for them but...
Yeah.
Hopefully there's not too many of them stalking around.
Wow.
I want to watch those guys.
And then there were snakes as well.
Yeah.
There were a few people who actually saw like...
Bigs of hooded cobras.
All right.
Wow.
And...
Well, that was just on land and the ocean.
There was tons of stuff that coagulated like stonefish.
Oh yes.
And...
What do we call the conefish?
Cone shells?
Oh yeah, they are called cone shells.
Yeah, cone shells.
Because they're venomous shellfish on there.
One of the most venomous creatures.
I think it's the most venomous sea creature.
Like they were saying that if you get jowed by them
and you had to be careful because the...
Like stinger is like...
It can extend to twice their body length.
But yeah, if you get stung by that, you're dead within half an hour.
So you get stung by that.
You're doomed.
Yeah.
You're finished.
Stonefish was a bit safer because...
I mean you die within five hours but...
That might just be enough time to take you to like a hospital.
Which was two hours away by boat.
More than that.
More than that.
Just have to get a boat out and then a plane.
Because the closest hospital was like on Bali.
We were really...
That's a long way.
So there was like no...
There was a sort of basic clinic for first aid
and they had a doctor that...
You could go to as you were on while anything.
But yeah, they couldn't really do much for you.
You've got sick.
Wow.
It's a good thing you made it back.
Yeah.
Well, we were talking about this.
Once everyone was very sort of paranoid.
They were like, oh my god, there's so many things in motion that can kill you.
And we were told that no one had actually died out and it didn't do you yet.
I don't think anyone...
They were also warning us about decompression sickness because we were scuba diving.
And they said that no one had had to be like transported away because of decompression sickness.
Right, right.
So no big emergencies.
It's a getting a problem because there's no decompression.
But yeah, it was quite concerning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Especially because you saw quite a lot of these creatures.
Yes.
And specifically, I did some...
I'll talk about more detail.
But one of the things I did was reef survey techniques.
And so they were getting STID invertebrates.
And they were wanting us to find...
They weren't STID specific type of like shell invertebrate.
And they were saying how it looked kind of like a cone shell.
And sometimes mistaken as cone shell.
And they said, you know, if you're turning it over to make sure it's alive
because you have to make sure it's alive to tell you it.
It can't be.
Yeah.
Do it with your board or your pencil, like not with your finger.
And I was just like, no, I'm not going to touch it.
Not counting them.
No.
So who else was there with you then?
This is quite a busy place, I take it.
Yeah, well we had...
There were lots of different people, different age groups.
But you had the staff.
The sort of main staff were like scientists, actual scientists or teachers.
And that sort of thing.
And then you had like the diving masters who varied an age a lot.
One of the women specifically who taught me diving was just like a year to older than me.
Yeah.
And then we had the dissertation students who were...
They must have been like fourth year university students who had gone out to do their dissertation in Indonesia.
And they were out for about six weeks.
And then you had the research assistants, which was what I was.
Who are the people who went out to assist the dissertation students.
Very good.
There's also quite a number of people on Hover Island that live there permanently.
Well yeah, we had other than sort of the people in charge or sort of staff.
Like the people who were cooking for us.
The people who owned our huts as well because we had landlords.
So everyone had a different style of hut.
And some people had better landlords and others.
There were some that baked people cakes and donuts.
And the others like, I never saw my landlord at all.
I don't think...
I think the first time I saw him in the last time I saw him was when he took us to our hut.
And then that was it.
Right.
Whereas other people were like, it would come in and be like, oh, I do want some cake.
My landlord made us cake.
And everyone was like, damn you.
I was going to ask you what you were doing there.
You covered quite a lot of that really.
But you weren't able...
I did a different thing every week.
Yeah.
Because what did you start off with?
Because you have to get skills first before you can actually do so.
I was a research assistant.
I was only a research assistant technically for one week.
So basically everyone who hadn't done...
You know, I didn't have a party certification.
And Paddy's the organization that you train with.
And you get a certification with to scuba dive.
Right.
I think there are different organizations you can do it with.
But Paddy's one of the sort of universally accepted ones.
So you can pretty much go anywhere in the globe and say, oh, we've got a party certification.
They go, all right, you can scuba dive.
Yeah.
So we spent the first week doing that.
It was surprising how short that time was.
It wasn't even a full week.
It was about five days.
I think I got my...
Yeah, I got my party certification within those five days.
It was like we started on...
I think it was like we started on Wednesday.
And then I finished by Saturday morning.
I was the last dive we did and it was like you're done.
But there was pretty intensive stuff, wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
It was diving all day, pretty much.
Yeah, we were getting up at like five in the morning before the sun had even risen.
And getting ready and going out to do theory stuff.
And then we'd go out and do diving.
And we had like, it was something like you had to do for confined dives,
which were usually you do in a pool, but because we didn't have pools.
And we had the ocean instead.
You got into the ocean.
And it would be like I think you had to be within five meters of the surface.
And like the first one we did, we were just sort of kneeling down the water.
So it sort of gets used to our regulators and that sort of thing.
And then we sort of steadily got deeper and deeper down.
And it was really interesting because you sort of at the beginning of sort of like,
oh god, how am I going to do this?
This is really like you think about being underwater like ten meters down.
We're just a regulator for your air.
And if something goes wrong, you're like,
this is really concerning.
I don't know if I can deal with this, but then by the end of it, you're just sort of like,
yeah, this is fine.
I can deal with this.
It's good.
Yeah, yeah.
Getting over that instinctive fear of putting your head under the water and not wanting to
breathe because you breathe water in and stuff is quite a difficult thing to master.
I mean, I was not by no means an expert because the following week I found like my buoyancy
was all over the place.
It took everyone was like, it was quite, it was a bit more stressful because we were doing
what's called resurvey techniques.
And that was basically them training us to be able to ID species, very species on the reef
and go out and do this sort of practical survey techniques.
Yeah.
So things like robustity, which is measuring like how smooth the bed surfaces.
Right.
So things like we were using quadrats and trans X, yeah, trans X ones and measuring like
a number of species within an area and that sort of thing.
It was everything from coral, like softened hard coral to invertebrates to fish and all
of that sort of stuff.
And we did seaweed and sea grasses as well.
Yeah, that was quite, it was a bit stressful because they were like, right, you need to go
down and do this stuff and you need to maintain your buoyancy because if you don't maintain
your buoyancy, you're going to knock into stuff.
And we were all like, just sort of flailing and I'm going, yeah, it took me until like half
the week to like have my weights right.
Because it was like, I think, because your weights are a weird thing and your buoyancy is dependent
on how you breathe as well.
So I think I was overweighted at the beginning because I was like in the first week we were
trying to sit on these like bamboo mats to do various exercises, like taking off our
masks and that sort of thing and I could not stay down.
I think it was because I was nervous and so I, because I was nervous, like they nervous
I wasn't completely relaxed.
I hadn't breathed out all the oxygen in my body.
So it's like in a swimming pool, like when you breathe out entirely then you can sink
but when you breathe in you float up.
And it was like, because of that I was overweighted and so I started the first week and I was
like sinking and I kept hand to constantly put in my IBCD and then I was like, oh I'm
too overweighted and so I took weights away and then I was too underweighted.
We had one while we were out to Sampel which luckily wasn't a really biodiverse area
because otherwise I would have like, I would have just destroyed a whole bed of coral
because I literally just fell to the bottom of the ground and I was like, I can't, I
was like the flowing up or I was sinking.
It was awful.
And the dad messed him up who was with us.
He was like, at the end I basically had to just sort of pull you along like a balloon
because I just kept looking up.
Oh dear, that's, yes, it's a tire string to you and then it's like, yeah, tickle, tickle
off everyone to sort of get used to the pointy.
Yes, yes of course, but that's what you, that's what you're there for, isn't it, to learn
this thing.
I mean, luckily I was able to do some snorkeling as well which is really fun.
You do, you do sort of, you do that on the reef flat and you sort of duck down and you
tuck like the transact under staff and then that was fun, that was really fun.
Sounds fantastic.
I'm sure a lot of people would be very jealous to hear about your experience, but we also
had a test at the end of that week.
People were quite frustrated by that.
Yes, yes, you said you had an exam.
Yeah, because we had to identify all the names of all the different species.
There was like about a hundred species or something and we had to, they, they would have
sky, the exam was basically, they showed like 40 slides or something and you had to, it
would say family or genus or something like that and you had to write down that name.
So it was so much memorization.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you were covering something new like every single day, so it was really quite stressful,
but I passed, I passed first time, so it worked out.
So it was, it was not a sort of relaxing holiday.
No, no, it was not relaxed.
It's still very rewarding.
Yeah, I had the third week I did reef monitoring, yeah, I did reef monitoring, which is something
they do in operation, but they basically monitor the diversity of different various species
in the reef and they use that to determine how healthy the reef is and whether or not it's
been damaged over, you know, various years, yeah, and they sort of give it into the
government.
Okay.
And that, you got some, there was some fairly fancy equipment involved in that one, what's
that?
Yeah, there was a, they used this, like, stereoscopic camera, which was basically like
two cameras on the end of like this big stick that people, like one person would swim
around down and transact with it and it would monitor the fish and then they put into
a program where you, which you could use to measure the fish, it was very finicky, but
yeah, we spent, we would wake up really early and go out in two consecutive dives, which
was really tiring.
It's very exhausting.
You had to go on a dive at seven and then come back, get all your gear off and then you'd
have about half an hour to rest and then you have to set all your gear back up and then
go out again, capturing this stuff and then after that you'd have a bit of a break for
lunch and maybe enough time to go and have like a Mandy, which is what, how we bathed,
which was basically a bucket of water, like we see, and then we had like a sort of smaller
pale that you sort of picked up with the water over you, so we had no running water.
So that was, I mean, we had a, no, no, we didn't have any running water.
I mean, yeah, no, no, I don't know what I'm thinking, no, no, no, no, no, I don't think
we had running water anyway, because I was just thinking of, do we have taps and no,
we didn't, we had a bucket that you just poured water onto your hands.
A well somewhere, maybe, isn't it?
Well, they brought in on the ship.
All right, all right.
Because there is no freshwater on the island itself, because, no, just rent, but it's
yeah, yeah, and it's on some sort of coral, old coral base, isn't it?
It's, it's whatever you call that when an island forms over the top of the coral.
So after lunch, we'd go to the lab and we'd do, we'd sort of, they'd have filmed like
transit lines and we'd sort of stop the video every sort of half a meter and you'd write
down what was there, so like rock or sand or whatever species of coral or whatever was
there.
And all we'd do in this sort of fish videos, and that was for a week.
And then the last week, the last week I was a research assistant and it was quite, that
was quite a busy week as well.
I was in the water at least three times a day, because that was making two research assistants
at that point, because everyone else who had done like training with me had gone off
to do something called the culture course, which is why you went around the surrounding
islands and sort of got an idea of, you know, you sort of experience the culture and
that sort of things and they went to some pillar and met people there and what to see what
the lifestyle was like.
And that was an interesting, that was, it sounded really interesting and I think I would
have done it if I had more time, but being from like, with my mum being from Indonesia,
I've had a lot of experience with Indonesian culture, so there was a lot of stuff that people
were surprised by that I was like, oh yeah, that's Indonesia, like the whole, like the neglect
incidents of rubbish, like they just throw out, like there was one girl who was saying
he was really shocked because she'd found that her landlord just basically would grab
the rubbish and just throw it down a coral hole and she was like, this is, this is, how
can they do this?
This is, like they're ruining the island and they live on and I was like, yeah, that's
something Indonesia, because it's the sort of, they don't really know how to deal with
this stuff.
No, it's, it's, it's a gradual process to get people into, they've got this specific culture
and then all this new stuff to be introduced, they don't really know how to integrate
that properly.
No, no.
We'll deal with it.
Yeah, it's part of what, what operation, while the series is helping us, they try and
educate the population.
And also the Indonesian government's quite strong on this sort of becoming so, I wanted
to, to preserve these sort of places.
Yeah, I decided that because I went there to be a research assistant, I wanted to do
at least one week of research assistant work.
Yeah.
I mostly snorkeling because there weren't many people who were willing to snorkel, so
I was mostly snorkeling.
I was working with a girl who was sort of serving fish part of us tea in the seagrass,
which was really interesting.
I've never, I've not really been out there that much.
So it was really, it was really cool to sort of see sort of stuff in the seagrass and I
did various other things.
I would have, I think if I could go back, I would have stayed another two weeks at least
because it was really, it was really enjoyable and there was sort of stuff I could have
done.
You just schooled, you got your school level up and you could have to leave.
And I got my endurance up as well, like it was so, I think by the end of the third week,
I'd gone past the point where everything was exhausting and like I'd built my sort of
strength and endurance enough that everything was much more, it was more like rewarding.
You didn't come out feeling exhausted, you sort of felt that sort of physical exhaustion
that sort of makes you feel excited and you know, wanting to do more of it.
Yeah, yeah, the length of time was satisfied, I guess you'd say.
Yeah, we had to decide on the length of time beforehand and it was sort of decided on
the basis of...
Well, originally I had planned six weeks, but like I had, because when I was sick during
the first semester of my first year, I'd missed an exam and it'd been deferred to August
and because it was one of my, it wasn't my biology, when it was my earth science subject
which I was less familiar with, I thought I needed extra time to study, I didn't want
it, and I wanted a bit of opportunity to have a bit of a break and then study, why
is if I did six weeks, I feel like I'd have to come back and just study for a way.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's shame, but there you go.
What can you do?
Yeah.
Let's just finish off by asking you a couple of questions.
What do you actually feel you gained from doing this?
Well, I think, well, I mean, it was just a wonderful experience because I got to meet
all of the interesting people, but I also got to see the reefs and the amount of, there
were some really beautiful areas out there that were just lovely and biodiverse and I've
never seen anything like that with my own eyes before and it was just a really wonderful
experience.
As a biologist, then that was, that was...
And of course, I like how to identify stuff as well, so I could go, oh, that's a, that's
a parrot patient, that's a butterfly patient, I don't know what that species is called.
And you've got to go and, do you tell me you went to Mangrove area?
Yeah, we did that at the end of the research assistant work, which was not the research assistant,
the reef survey techniques, because they wanted us to, I mean, that was the only time I
went there, but because we were researching the sea grasses at that point, that was a good
area to go out to and that was really interesting.
We were just snorkeling with no weights or anything like that, so you were just floating
on the surface because the bed of the Mangrove was like a few meters away, like two meters
away from you.
And you had all these upside-down jellyfish and stuff, it was really beautiful and amazing.
Man, I didn't know anything about that.
I mean, of course, I also like how to goo a dive, which I can, I can do...
Of course you do.
How much of the gear now as well, except for the BCD and the air tanks?
What's a BCD, by the way?
It's true.
I think it sounds like a buoyancy control device, it's basically this big sort of, it's kind
of like a jacket, but it's, it's the thing that inflates or deflates to a buoyancy.
Okay, all right.
So I don't know anything about that.
And then your regs are like your, your regularly, which is what you breathe through and also
you have your main reg and your secondary reg for emergencies or if your body is out of
oxygen.
And then you have like a, and then you have a bit that clips into your BCD, and that's
where you get the air form, and then you get like a, your SPG, which is a thing that tells
you how much air you've got, like, to know what depth you are at.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
I'll put that down.
Yeah, that was really good.
Like I want to do more diving.
Yeah.
I think if I ever go out to Indonesia again on holiday, I want to, I want to do a diving.
Do do some, do some proper diving there.
So yeah, well, that leads me to my last question, which is, would you do this again if you
got the chance?
Yeah, I think I would, problem right now is that I, like I probably want to go out and
do some proper research, assistant work, you know, a specific project, because that's
the sort of thing, companies, I don't know, companies and organizations expect you to have
when you're CVS are biologists.
Yes.
So I probably have to go out and do that, you know, so I don't want to spend, it was
quite an expensive trip and I don't want to have to spend that much money.
I think if I do do, like, something with operation, I'll see you again, I'll do the group lead
I think, because that was something we were offered to do, um, I'll, I'll do the lead
I deal and try and recruit people to go in expedition.
I don't know if I do an ocean one again, I might, but one of the ones that interested
me the most was the terrestrial one out in Africa, or you basically live out in the
savannah and Hudson stuff, not Hudson tents, and like you're literally on the savannah,
so they have like, there was line proof fences around the campsite, and you go out into
the savannah and they were saying how it's quite dangerous, it can be quite dangerous
work, because you can actually have like face-to-face encounters with wildlife, and you
get taught specific ways to avoid them, we'll have to deal with them and you have to,
you know, it's quite stringent, but it's very rewarding, and I'd like to, so I think
it's in, it's another extreme, you know, I've, I've sort of experienced the, the sort
of marine biology side, but I kind of want to experience that sort of very, you know,
Africa is a good place to experience, yeah, very cool, very cool, very cool, well I hope
that comes, uh, comes to be, we'll have to see, anyway, hopefully I'll, hopefully I'll
have time on some holiday or something, alright, let's, let's, let's call a halt at that
point, thanks very much Clara, and hope everybody enjoyed hearing about your experience, okay,
bye then.
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