Episode: 3019
Title: HPR3019: Linux Inlaws S01E02 FOSDEM shenanigans
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3019/hpr3019.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-24 15:18:21

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3,019 for Thursday 27 February 2020.
Today's show is entitled Linux in Law Season 1, Episode 2, FOSD EM Shnanagans.
It is hosted by Monarch Romek and is about 65 minutes long
and carries an explicit flag. The summer is.
Linux in Laws, a podcast about on topics around free and open source software.
This episode of HBR is brought to you by AnanasThost.com.
Get 15% discount on all shared hosting with the offer code HBR15, that's HBR15.
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This is Linux in Laws, a podcast on topics around free and open source software.
Any associated contraband, communism, the revolution in general and whatever else fans is critical.
Please note that this and other episodes may contain strong language or fans of humor
and other certainly not politically correct language you have been warned.
Our parents insist on this disclaimer.
Happy Mom, thus the content is not suitable for consumption in the workplace,
especially when played back on a speaker in an open plan office or similar environments.
Any minors under the age of 35 or any pets, including fluffy little kilobannies,
you trust the guide dog unless on speed and cute T-rexes or other associated dinosaurs.
Season 1, Episode 2, FOSD EM Shnanagans.
Martin, how are things?
Hello Chris, how are you?
Not too bad.
It's not too bad, thank you.
Not a windy Sunday afternoon.
Yeah, I probably have to kind of pause for some strange odd reason that was there,
but it was only an hour so that's okay.
It's padding at the recording.
Yeah, we do.
Like I did it our last time, the police right in front of my house,
and drug enforcement agents busting through the door and all the rest of it wasn't pleasant,
but I'm sure that none of the audience is recording from the prison right now.
No, no.
Good.
Excellent.
So Martin, what's been happening since we last spoke about a fortnight ago?
Well, we obviously have a virgin episode out live in T minus...
Four days.
Yes.
So we have had some great feedback from a small select group of people.
Indeed.
But it has been positive.
Very good.
What about yourself Chris?
I can't complain.
I want to force them.
Force them.
What's his task?
For the few members of our select audience that didn't listen to the audience,
that haven't listened to the last episode.
Force them is a small congregation of open source enthusiasts,
about slightly more than 10,000 congregate in Brussels,
or in the suburb south of Brussels over the weekend,
celebrating beer, communism, open source, very important,
and other interesting concepts.
And before you ask Martin,
and force them...
Do you know what's the first instance for?
I've been to once, actually, a few years ago,
but free open source developer,
and some more bits.
You see, this is...
Yeah, this...
Okay, marketing has done a proper job here,
because the original meaning was,
fuck up city software done by evil monopolies.
Yes, this is the original meaning of force them.
Unfortunately, the PC police shot...
Was the audience correct?
Yes, exactly.
And they changed this to us, as a matter of fact,
which of course, then stand...
Stand up, stand up, stand up.
Bit stand for, exactly.
Open source developers,
you're in European meeting.
And then our beloved Richard and Stormen said,
sorry, we can't have this.
It has to be free and open source.
The developer's European meeting.
Hence, the acronym force them was born.
What's the free bit point in?
The free bit.
Yeah, as a free...
No, the beer isn't...
No, the beer isn't free.
As a matter of fact, it's quite expensive,
because you're talking Belgium here.
Yes.
But as we all know,
Richard and Stormen, among other people,
is of the really cherished opinion
that software is similar, pretty much similar to ideas,
has to be free.
Hence, this free bit.
Isn't this synonymous with open source software?
I'm missing something here.
Well, you ask some spot spots like the OSI and other...
Well, spot spots, let's put it this way,
and then they have a different opinion.
For Richard and Stormen, other people,
open source isn't necessarily free.
And I get his point to some extent.
Because...
You can...
Your source is open, therefore freely available.
Okay, I'm not free.
Now, what's going to...
What's going to follow now is about a two-hour excursion
into the fun aspects of open source licensing.
Not...
That will be reserved for future episodes.
Okay, Martin, what do you know about the so-called GPL,
the GNU Publicly License?
Ah, it's one of the ones out there.
There are many different ones.
Name me.
Name me few.
Ah, that's a good question.
What's the other famous one?
M-I-T, B-S-D.
B-S-D, yes.
Apache.
That's another thing?
Yes, no, maybe?
Yes.
Okay, and what makes the GPL different?
From the other ones I just mentioned.
Any clues?
It's got different letters.
Yes.
Indeed.
That's public?
Yes, indeed.
Very, very, very good.
No, as a matter of fact...
It's got something to do with the Wilbur Beast as well.
Sorry, no.
No, you see the idea behind this was that...
And this is where the free bit comes in.
I think I alluded to that on the previous episode already.
Essentially, you're standing on the shoulder of giants with open source.
Essentially, you can reuse software components
that other people have done already.
This is the whole idea behind it.
So the GPL specifically says about other things
that you are supposed to in certain variations of the GPL
and actually require to publish any changes.
In contrast to other open source licenses, like Apache and BSD,
where you don't have to do this necessarily.
You can do this, you can up to do this,
but only the GPL and friends require you to publish the changes.
This is the important difference
because Apache and MIT and other permissive licenses
only say, yes, source code, do whatever you want with it.
This is only relevant for commercial companies, surely.
And no, your friendly hacker doesn't really care about any of these licenses.
Well, you see, it's essentially about chairing right.
If you just gobble up source code and do whatever you want with it,
who's going to benefit from the changes you make to that source code?
You yourself?
And that's about it, exactly.
That's exactly it.
However, you can always obviously publish changes or suggest.
Yes, but this is actually all disposal.
Only with the GPL, especially with the Afari GPL,
which is a type of GPL you are required to publish the changes.
This is the big difference.
It's like reading a book, thinking about the contents,
coming up with new ideas, and then keeping these ideas to yourself.
What is the benefit for the community, in that case?
Well, it's, yeah, I think, I guess not not not not not the best analogy there.
Thank you.
Sorry.
You need to work on your analogies.
For the audience, Card Martin has yet to be confused to find the aspects of communism,
but that's okay.
Yeah.
Now, sharing ideas on software is obviously beneficial.
The more people talk about different ideas and all benefits,
the progress, right?
That's fair enough.
Which, you know, books are generally not based on, well,
anything relevant or...
Most of the money, you're right.
Yes.
Therefore, that's not quite the same, but yeah.
How do we get to...
The way I'm sorry, go ahead.
It's pretty much...
The licensing for open sources is only relevant for the...
You know, the commercial companies out there, right?
Who take a piece of open source software and use it for their own benefit.
I mean, the AWS Conundrum.
For example.
Well, you have a point there, yes.
That's correct.
So, yeah, if you're friendly hacker, yes.
If he takes a piece of software, no matter which license it is,
he builds an application for himself to...
Mine's a Bitcoin or whatever he wants to do, right?
It's all good.
It doesn't matter which license it is under.
Well, you see, it's a fundamental notion in terms of...
Should ideas be free?
With the GPS, there certainly are.
With MIT and other permissive licenses,
especially the 3-gloss BSD and so forth,
they don't have to be, because you can lock them in.
You can lock them into your code base.
You can lock them into your implementation.
They won't see the light of day.
It's simpler than that.
Hence the difference between kind of the level of permissiveness
and the overall attitude towards open source licensing.
I can see both sides working for an open-core company.
That's not a big deal.
The money has to come from somewhere,
but I totally get the idea of ideas and software
and these general concepts being free.
And allow it to be free,
because essentially that's what the GPS stands for.
But then I'm a communist at heart and a strong believer too
when it comes down to that sort of thing.
So that's okay.
Now everybody is, I'm at it.
There's a small amount of the population is communist needs.
No, I wouldn't say that.
That's an open-core company.
We're quite an interesting point, right?
If you're looking at the use of open source software in organizations,
they do generally not contribute back a great deal.
They will just implement the Postgres,
they'll implement the Redis,
they'll still run Linux, right?
And they'll do so quite happily
and charge their customers' money for the service they provide.
So how does this reconcile with your communism software ideas?
Just to tell you, do you know a company called Zalando?
Your wife probably buys from them,
or maybe you do too,
but you wear the stuff only on the weekends when nobody's watching.
Anyway, sorry,
for the people who do not know who Zalando is,
it's one of the prime online retailers in Europe.
The funny thing is they use a lot of open source
and now it is the interesting bit.
They do have community managers who appear on open source podcast
to talk about their pull requests
that they contribute back to the community
on places such as GitHub.
But they're minority, right?
There's a landlost of the world.
Well, good question.
IBM has contributed a lot, so as Microsoft,
you may argue that this was only for the benefit of Azure,
but about seven or eight years ago,
they were the top kernel contributor for Linux
as in kernel contributions
in order to better the power virtualization layer
and probably make it compatible to something with Azure.
But, and this is the important bit.
Linux in I think 94 or 95 maybe a year later
made one important change.
Any guesses to the kernel code base?
24 or 95.
Maybe later.
I can't believe the exact year.
But, he put it under GP.
What was then GP version two?
Meaning that every bit of kernel code,
you touch, you have to publish the changes.
Very important.
There are quite a few court cases pending.
There's a guy in Hamburg.
I can't remember the name,
but you're from the search engine of trust.
I'm sure we'll be able to help you there.
Who filed a court case against a company called VMware.
Which has subsequently acquired a company called Pivotal
and some of you may know.
Not sure what happened to the court case.
I think it was thrown out.
But, again, some judges are reckoned don't get it.
Okay.
Well, the law doesn't generally work under don't get it.
It's generally the case.
Unfortunately, no.
It doesn't.
Yet to be changed.
It still hasn't changed, right?
We walk around this.
This is a task for...
On quick, big books of law written down laws.
Perhaps they don't cover things like ideas and freedom of those.
Well, rather than restrictive, right?
I mean, just take a look at the whole copyright thing.
Which, again, leads up to open-source licenses.
Okay.
We digress.
Enough random things.
How do we get...
How do we get there?
First term of course.
First term.
First term.
You've never been to first term.
I've been to first term once.
When was that?
That was five years ago.
Six years ago, something like that.
So, we missed each other among these then, eight thousand people.
Well, unless you were working for Hortonworks at the time,
and the copyright was written.
No.
What did you get Hortonworks?
No, no.
I was educating Hortonworks on how they should be.
At first, they're implementing Hadoop better here.
Side note markets are smart one of us.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
Okay.
So, how many times have you been to first term?
This is my eighth year in a row.
Okay.
Almost half.
Very good.
It is in a row, I see.
Yeah.
Sorry, yes.
This was my eighth year now.
I've been making a point of going to first term.
I'm missing it for the last eight years.
Okay.
So, let's see some attraction to this.
Not related to the Belgian beers, perhaps.
I just like standing in the rail.
Talking in the morning arguing with.
Open Sousa.
I think it's Richard Brown.
And he's one of the chief architect of open Sousa.
About the final points of licensing.
This is what I'm really game about.
And I don't mind catching cold afterwards.
Richard, if you're listening,
I'll just forgive him.
Mr. Francis.
The local pub was closed at the time.
Is it so?
No.
Okay.
Did you go to Delirium on a Friday night?
Delirium.
Yes.
Interesting beer.
No, it's also a pub in the center of Brussels.
I'm assuming what I say of the associated beer.
Absolutely.
It has been not yet.
Yes.
Good for health, to be honest with that.
You see, it's like any proper medication.
It depends on the dose, right?
Parallels is spottedly observed at about 600 or 70 years ago.
And he has a point.
I had a point anyway.
Okay.
The Friday night is important wise,
that important because everybody gathers there.
Hence the restriction.
They do ask questions at the door.
If you cannot answer them,
because the place is reserved for fostering attendees,
you won't get in.
Okay.
Do you have anything to do with license?
No, it doesn't.
No, I mean, the only show of my way in order to get in
is actually wearing a fostering t-shirt.
Because that proves that you have been there before.
Oh, I'm still in it from a friendly tramp.
Therefore be illegal, so we don't do this.
It's very important.
Okay.
This is a novel idea.
Yeah, the few times that I haven't worn fostering t-shirt,
I normally hassle them with license questions
or collect questions about risk or code base.
Is that normally those to trick too?
Or CB for short.
Indeed.
Yes.
Yes.
Very important.
Not familiar with this.
Okay.
So those of you who haven't been to fostering you must go.
This is somewhat counterproductive me saying this,
when I first went to fostering, there were about 6,000 people.
The attendance has doubled in science ever since.
The official line is still 8,000,
but that's mostly for insurance reasons.
No, seriously.
Because it's taking place at something of the ULB,
the University League of Brussels,
which is in Excel, which is a small suburb of Southern Brussels.
If the university would find out how many people
were really attending,
I reckon they would kick out that format in terms of the event
because for security insurance reasons,
not more than around 8,000 people can participate.
Let's hope nobody from the Bells University
is going to listen to our podcast here.
As a look of it, they never do know what that's called.
Okay.
We'll be listeners.
This is purely an assumption.
Of course, I may be wrong.
Do not ask the organizers.
It's just the gate of this thing, right?
They will tell you the truth,
which is 8,000 people will stop.
No, the thing goes all more.
Right.
Anyway, reasons to go to foster them.
Delirium.
Okay.
Catching code afterwards when talking to open-source architects.
And of course, sharing, learning and meeting people.
What do you know what a hallway track is?
It's a track in a hole.
Indeed.
It's not in a city with miniature railways.
No, it doesn't.
Thank God it doesn't.
No, no.
No.
The hallway track is something not in the schedule.
Not in the agenda or not in the program.
As a unique place in the hole.
That's exactly it.
First of all, when I first heard I didn't like the term,
but the longer I'm kind of engaging with the community,
the more it grows on me.
Because essentially, yes, the important, the talks are important.
No doubt about that.
The sessions are just amazing.
You get to meet everybody under the sun,
who is anything important or not.
Contribute you to open-source.
Then a pet or petering gave a talk on the home director issue.
About a week ago.
Who else was there?
The top project gave an update on the top project funny enough.
And so forth.
The current, and I talked about HTTP 3.
It's that sort of, I wouldn't say gently,
but projects that you're going to meet there.
About a couple of years ago,
Cody gave an update on the on our beloved home theater code base.
You always have the people with the VLT hats.
Attending for them.
And needless to say, you have about two levels of booths,
where some of the projects have their representation.
So, yes, it's about attending talks,
and attending sessions,
but also very much about meeting people,
making new friends,
and exchanging ideas and knowledge.
Hence, this notion of the fringe events around for them.
For example, for the last about five years,
the centralized project,
as in the breeding ground,
I'm almost tempted to say,
for Reddit.
No, it's actually sorry,
if you're listening,
it's the other way around.
Fedora comes first,
and then Reddit turns the commercial
and center as claims back again.
That's where it works right.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
The center as people have a dojo on the Friday,
just before the Saturday.
And I normally attend this,
and this is valuable as such,
because you have current maintainers there.
You have other people there.
You have Fedora people there.
Needless to say,
the center as people are there too.
And it's just a fun day of a packed agenda,
and I really like it.
Okay.
Good stuff.
What's your key takeaway from last year's for STEM?
Hmm.
Don't go there on an empty stomach.
Okay.
Good advice.
Good advice.
Okay.
Sorry.
Yes.
If you want to bring your own packed lunch,
because the queues are just amazing.
Yeah.
Food trucks,
at the very back of one of the of the of the of the of the
of the halls.
But especially if you're going lunchtime,
expect queues to be really long.
There was this guy called,
what's wrong?
Enter Conway, right?
That was the guy.
Yes.
Sorry.
Andrew, if you're listening,
great job.
I really like you seeing it be happy at the heck at the
heck are public where you stand and nice introduction
into into into for them.
Full disclaimer,
just the episode,
I think before or after our virgin episode is actually a
sorry after I think after after our virgin episode,
is Andrew Conway talking about the first about this
first experience of his first for STEM experience of his
first time.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
If you have a chance,
listen to it.
The audio quality is okay for enough.
He did many things live.
That's great.
Apparently not an awful lot of editing going on,
but that's okay.
Um, but the account of foster is pretty accurate, I think.
Martin, you've been there too.
So, I mean, what do you make of the podcast?
Yeah, that's a great description.
Um, I guess, I guess it's really what you
summarized rightly.
If you are in the open source software,
if you want to find out the latest on the projects,
if you want to meet the people who maintain these
and progress them, then it's a good place to go.
Uh, and, yeah,
uh, that the beer is a nice,
nice story of any, uh,
building is famous for it's thousand different beers.
And, um, yeah.
Oh, yeah, a thousand.
I thought I was smarter than that.
It's a thousand that I've tried.
Anyway, I can't say.
You've tried a thousand beers.
Oh, it's a, yeah, probably.
This is, this is the thing to do.
If he, if you've built him for a number of months.
And I'll find all the different beers.
For the benefit of the listeners,
Martin is not to do from the UK.
Um, if Martin wants to disclose this origin,
that's okay,
but he is from a country not far away from Belgium.
So, yes, it shows the legacy shows,
but that's okay.
Correct.
And we keep the other vice of the week for later.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm coming back to force them.
Um, yeah, why should you go?
It's really about, as I said,
if you are even closely related to anything open source,
make it point you don't have to go there every year,
but just do it once.
And then decide if it's worth going back.
And then,
if it's worth going back,
if it's worth going back,
it will be packed.
There's no doubt about that.
Um,
Delirium isn't mandatory.
You don't have to go there and fry the night.
You can't do,
but expect to be,
expect the pastry really packed.
If you want to have a quiet moment,
as in about 10 seconds,
go there before APM.
Um,
what I normally do is,
normally,
I go to one of the French events.
Um,
I then make it quick.
Um,
depending on where they are,
and then make a quick stop at the accommodation,
drop the luggage,
and then head back into town.
But I'm normally,
if I'm not distracted by open-susurarchitects,
back before midnight.
Um,
the reason is that the first,
I think the first keynote session opens at around 9.30,
maybe 10 o'clock.
But.
You did your beauty sleep,
of course, yes, yes.
Oh, yes.
And we all do because we are.
Slightly older than spring checkers.
Okay.
Anyway, so,
so a very quick question.
Okay.
So say you are, uh,
heavily, uh,
into, uh,
say Postgres as an open source project.
What would the benefit be to go to a false dem?
If you are, you know,
very focused on a particular project, right?
First of all,
is one of these legacy SQL databases, right?
Thank you for getting.
Postgres.
Indeed.
Yes.
Postgres, indeed.
Yes.
Postgres.
Well, to be quick,
as old as my SQL,
or even though Maria is slightly younger,
but older, yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Um,
sorry for the cool kids.
It's one of the legacy things.
You will come across that in your repo.
Um,
if you're SQL oriented,
that's probably the database.
Check out.
If you're going to,
if you want to go for new databases,
powering new workloads,
probably not.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
But as I guess,
why do you want to go there?
Um,
yeah.
My question was really,
you know,
it's,
it's,
it's,
it's a general event, right?
There has many,
many different projects.
And it is bigger than your,
yes,
so if you're a Postgres contributor,
and you go to your Postgres,
one post, right?
If you are a,
um,
not quite as a register,
or a Linux contributor there,
then you go to your,
uh,
associated open,
Suzy,
uh, conference.
You can do that,
but on the other side,
um,
why do you want to confine yourself?
Uh,
I mean, you have,
okay,
for some,
you have general tracks,
um,
for example,
the top project gave a presentation.
On one of the main tracks,
also did the,
um,
did the,
did the,
did the HDP,
uh,
uh,
uh,
uh, three thing was also happening as one of the,
of the main sessions,
but then you,
but then you have the depth rooms.
So these depth rooms cover everything from radius,
uh,
maybe the fun software,
sorry,
a bit of a fun radio.
It's getting late.
So for the fun radio,
right up to programming languages,
like Rust,
GoLang,
Haskell,
Python,
you name it.
Then you have depth rooms on micro-curl architectures,
embedded systems,
IoT,
just take your pick.
First of all,
is probably the conference on the global scale that has the most
diversity,
when it comes down to topics and subjects.
Um,
I mean, for us,
if you want to,
if you want to go,
if you want to,
if you want to be at a conference that only discusses,
I always scheduling,
and slap allocation on a kernel level,
the plumber's conference,
um,
uh,
excursion or,
or,
or,
or interlude,
as far as I know,
the plumber's conference is by invitation only.
Uh,
so you just can't go there and show up.
So you have to be invited, I think.
But then I'm not a kernel contributor,
so I don't really know.
Anyway,
this is your hangout then,
or to,
or to,
or go to a devian,
what are they called,
devian architecture conferences or something like this?
So I mean,
if,
if, if you want to,
if you want to stick to your subject,
that's fine.
Just,
just attend that specialized conference.
OpenSusa runs conferences,
I think,
and on an annual basis.
So,
if you're an openSusa user,
just,
just,
or,
or,
that's a little bit cool?
Okay.
So you're,
you're,
you're,
you're,
so your point is,
is really, uh,
the, you can broaden your horizons and learn about that.
That's a,
that's a please cool products and languages, etetra,
especially if you want to,
if you want to spot you train,
rumor has it that
some years back,
something became arbuffyl idea of having container service,
already spun up
ready to take work loads,
and Georgens,
That was bred up at a first step.
So current law goes, which is now a multi-billion-dollar
industry or something like this, alongside this whole hosting
shenanigans as a, what's it called, cloud, right?
Use other, use other, and people's computers.
Correct.
Because essentially that's where a cloud is, right?
So.
Yes, that's it, so I'm on the developer dreams for it.
I hear there were some talks in the rest room this year.
Indeed, yeah, there was a rest room and fun enough.
In contrast to my real kind of wild dreams, my proposal
was accepted.
So I did presentation on, and that was my first
present presentation.
If you choose to take a look at the video,
you'll see a certain level of nervousness.
And that's quite normal because I've delivered many, many,
many, many, many presentations at many different conference,
but that was my first time talking.
So, yes, check out the,
tough audience, tough audience.
Yeah, packed audience, I wouldn't say tough, but packed audience.
Interesting, interesting questions afterwards.
Sorry, yes.
If you missed out on the first episode,
I presented on the performance of the rust re-implementation
of something called Redis Jason, which is document oriented
to be on top of an in-memory database called Redis.
And Redis is, of course, under three-class BSD license,
all the rest of it.
You know it.
Check it out on GitHub.
Commercial break-end.
Jokes aside, there was an initial implementation done in C.
And I juxtaposed those to the re-implementation
as part of Redis Jason II in Rust.
And the performance benchmarks that I run using Yahoo Cloud
serving benchmark, YSCB,
are quite interesting because it turns out
that the performance penalty that you're paying
between a C-based implementation
and a rust-based implementation are quite minimal.
You're talking anything between two to five,
depending on the use case, maybe up to 7%.
But you get the benefits of a strongly typed language,
including a very sophisticated memory management
or the rest of it, free and gratis when using it.
So the main point, just boiling down to the Redis Jason II
code base was that the performance overhead
is not that significant when you're
talking about re-implementing a previously existing code
base in C again in Rust.
Also, something interesting.
I took the native Redis performance figures
and compared them to Redis Jason.
And that the overhead was quite significant when going
from typical strings are hashes to documents
as Redis Jason implements them.
For the ones who are interested in that sort of thing,
the slides and the presentation in terms of the session
recording is on for them, check it out.
I'm sure these links will also appear on our friendly Linux
Indos website.
Absolutely.
Funny that you mentioned that, yes, we do have a website.
It's called Linux Indos.eu.
It's a labor flow.
It's a work in progress, but it does exist.
And yes, we will make events to that website over time.
You will find further information.
And if we finally get around it, you will also find show notes.
In the meantime, these show notes also appear on something
called Hacker Public Radio, where we will continue
to publish the episodes more on this later.
Martin, say something.
That should actually be our Q, right?
Please.
Sorry.
Sorry.
What's the key?
What does he say something?
Yes.
Okay.
Do you check out the first episode?
Yes.
I'm trying to explain the open source, and then I'm lost for words.
And I say something along the lines.
Martin says something.
And they're literally starts.
So this has now been promoted to the official queue of something
called linux-in-loss.u.
Indeed.
Say something.
Excellent.
Okay.
So now on to the weekly news item ordered by weekly news items,
since we are publishing heavy tweaks.
Indeed.
Okay.
So Chris, what is your bi-weekly main news item?
Didn't we discuss that you would be coming up with this,
and I will just be taking questions on this?
Oh, that's fun.
That's right.
You're going to hang on a minute.
I'm bringing the news item.
You're taking questions on this?
Yes.
And what does it stand for?
What does it mean?
What are the implications?
Okay.
What the new item?
No, that was the section one, which was the first thing, right?
Okay.
Which we don't.
I'm confused.
You can use it.
I'm going to use it.
The section one was for them.
We don't for them, right?
Yes.
Yes.
Anything else you want to say on one for them?
I could say a million things.
Yes.
I'm sure.
I'm sure.
That's very important.
Okay.
Andrew spoke about this already.
If you're going to force them, make one thing sure.
Look into accommodation time.
Well, where?
Well, I have that.
Well out of time.
In advance.
In advance.
Thank you very much.
And because if you're looking into this just a week before,
the places will be booked solid.
I know I'm being the being the fantastic detail living obsessed German.
I normally look into the harbor half a year before for some actually takes place.
Also bear in mind, for them is not in Brussels.
It's south of Brussels.
So if you book something north of the city of the city center,
you can easily look at a commute of at least half an hour,
if not an hour, depending on traffic.
People do yourself a favor.
Don't take the car.
But Brussels has an excellent transport public transport system.
Small car that it stops at around one o'clock after that.
You're looking at caps or maybe night buses.
As I found out when the discussion with Richard finally stopped last year,
at around 2 30 pm, when I could walk home from Delirium right up to the place in Excel,
where I was staying, they took me about an hour and a half.
Or maybe just kind of slightly under under under under 80 minutes.
And blood Brussels the way down there is not kind of side worth seeing at that time of the day.
So yes, but I mean, if you I mean, and especially if you're kind of staying in Excel or at a back or Excel around there,
you can easily take a bus or kind of walk there.
But you only get these places if you book well in advance.
Great tip.
Also something important.
If you're arriving, if you're arriving anywhere from mainland Europe.
Excuse me.
Plane yes is an option, but the train service are just amazing.
Brussels has about two main three main stations.
And has regular services from Paris, from Frankfurt, from even from this I call it Britain, right?
Yes, you know, it's only the high speed train.
So you can go to Holland, France, UK, all in no time.
Indeed.
What else is there to say?
Yeah, bring warm clothes.
Very important because Brussels camp is a umbrella.
Yeah, don't forget that too.
I mean, we're talking about last last weekend of January or most of the times, first weekend of February.
Yes, and Brussels can be pretty cold.
Even if you're not standing in front of the Lyrium talking to open so the architects until one 30 or something.
Excellent.
That sounds like some great tips there for honestness.
Yes, I'm onto the news item.
Okay.
It's a bit of a while, but as you may or may not know, or may not know Martin.
I got rid of them storm and somewhat voluntarily gave up presidency of something called the Free Software Foundation.
Okay.
And his reasoning was he was he was given food for thought in order to do so.
Which is unfortunate.
Okay.
Or great.
Depending on the part of you.
No, what was the feed for thought, right?
The food for thought was he made.
Okay.
I'm just a loose follower of SFF issues.
So the following account may or may not be accurate integrated in in in some sort of level of detail.
Apparently, there was an MIT professor disclaimer as far as I know.
Richard is still a resident of sorts or has some sort of job at the MIT or had anyway.
And there was some some some professor that was Lucy feel it with a guy called Weinstein Weinstein, whatever.
Essentially, the guy behind the whole me too thing.
And who made a couple of appearances called recently.
And there was a comment being made by by Richard about something close to don't quote me on it to something close to us or resembling something remotely called a witch hunt.
I said I have to be PC here.
And that wasn't exactly the most favorite state with the most favorite statement with some people in the FSF.
And they're strongly suggested of stepping down.
Richard has managed to cling on to the new project for the time being.
But yes, it's.
And of course, the jury is still out of this, whether that was a good smart or ugly move on the side of the freezer for foundation.
What do you know about a guy called Richard and storm at Martin?
Oh, a far less than you do.
I'm sure.
An extreme talk, but do continue.
I think the memory he featured in one of our quiz nights recently.
Yes, he did indeed.
What did he feature in a quiz, Chris?
Okay, and Martin must have to do pop quiz a couple of months back.
And I came up with the with the with the loony questions and the loony answers.
And of course, Richard and stormman was was.
Part of his pop quiz.
And for for those of you who don't know the audience and Richard and stormman is behind something called the free for software foundation, which he found a thing 40 or 50 years back.
He was also instrumental in writing something called Emax.
Emax is that operating system disguised as an editor.
What else did he did invent? I think.
Yeah, he also came up with this idea of the new project.
Of course, being a recursive acronym for news, not Unix.
The idea was at the time and you're looking at 70, at the 70s, maybe early 80s, to create a free and open source alternatives to something called Unix.
Unix at the time was highly proprietary.
As a matter of fact, if you're interested in that sort of thing, there was a beautiful talk on the history of Unix.
At this year's first time, the streams out there just check it out.
Unix being proprietary.
It wasn't exactly down Mr. Mr. Stormman's alley.
So he came up with the idea of a doing a free and free and open source alternative to you to Unix.
And being making, of course, this was called available to the general public.
But you're talking about, as I said, 70, 80s, maybe early 90s.
So quite a few people sat down and wrote what is now used as the majority of the user land for at least from a command and perspective for operating systems like BSD.
The BSD, sorry, before I get misquoted, the BSD, something called Linux.
What else is there?
There's a sequence on a on a on a on a on a on a on a on a on a on a windows basis.
And some other politics compliant operating systems.
They all, if they're using any part of the new utilities or new tool chain like GCC, like the compiler, like the like the like the tools.
And like LS or are like the like the typical command and tools like sword arc and other things.
They go back to the new project or most of them do in that particular fashion.
So much of the code base of your ordinary user land would have been contributed by the by by new.
The only thing missing at the time was something called kernel.
There was an attempt from the project as in glue storm and front as in as in Richard storm and friends to to develop something called hurt HURD.
A guy called Mike Bushnell started this at the order of the project.
I think in the late 80s early 90s.
I met him in at a my conference in 93 and other currently.
At the time you couldn't even boot kernel.
I think it is my understanding that you can boot it now.
At least in a on a virtual machine, not a sure what extra hardware, but.
The thing is that given the time span that has passed.
The project has yet to deliver a function fully functional kernel.
Too much of I think Richard's demise, something else came up in 92.
A guy called Linus Torwald decided to take a look at menics.
Didn't exactly see what he liked when it came down to terminate emulation and wrote his own thing.
The rest is history.
Timing was instrumental.
Because Linux and friend Linus and friends wrote the kernel.
They had to rely on an already existing user land.
Which was provided by the new project.
Hence Richard's notion of no it's not Linux.
It's actually something called GNU Linux.
The kernel, yes, is important, but the rest is much more important.
The kernel is only small thing.
So it has to be GNU Linux, not just Linux.
Hence the controversy around this in recent years.
And that's a bit of history surrounding this.
It's a good history lesson there, I think he.
But this news of his departure is actually kind of old news.
I've been September last year.
Yeah, about a couple of months.
Okay, so it's behind with events only.
It's still it's too rewarding, but because it was a subject of discussion.
But I had quite a few people actually in Brussels.
Let's see.
I wouldn't say headlight news, but it's still around.
Okay, good stuff.
What else does Victor talk about?
What do you have a tech tip for?
Or is that kind of summarized in your rust versus sea tip that you gave us earlier?
Tech tip.
I do.
What do you know about Git?
It's kind of handy for source code control.
Indeed.
And it's open source, which is always good.
Which license does it have Chris?
I do not know.
Okay, I don't know.
I would not like to.
We just use it.
That information to your listenership will be provided as part of the show notes are not depending.
My assumption is it's very permissive license like a patch.
I think it's a patchy if I'm completely mistaken, but I might be wrong.
Okay, as we found out while we're working on the website because we are both developing it.
There will be a sorry, yes, the first episode was called how this shit works.
When deliberating about the future shows.
And Martin agrees to some extent there will be a second part of this.
Detailing the technical things how we do things across something called the cat.
It's called the channel exactly separating mainland Europe from a splinter country called.
If not completely mistaken.
Yeah, but by the way, yeah, Martin, what do you want to do to detect it?
What do you what do you make of mex it?
Mex it.
Is this something to do with Angela Merkel?
Say again, is this something to do with Angela Merkel?
No, no, it doesn't actually.
There's something called around, I think the BK something called something around called a constitutional monarchy.
If I'm completely mistaken.
Yes, and one of the offsprings of the offsprings of the offsprings has decided to.
It was too much effort here.
Sorry, yeah, apparently it's so common or goes from a content perspective.
And the wrong Lassie was buried to use a Scottish technical turk.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Hence that Lassie decided to change things.
But Martin has of course been a president in these matters.
In the 1930s, similar molecule departed with an American woman.
Yes.
Martin may have a different inside perspective than me looking at this from the outside.
But I reckon that good or good or lazy isn't too happy about recent developments.
I mean, she was in the top spot, right?
I mean, she has a moron of a son.
Sorry, my personal opinion.
Sorry, a breakaway son who wasn't happy in the first marriage ditched the wife.
Then got married to some hack for one of the bad eggs.
And the offspring of course was still around.
Needless to say, when you divorce, if you divorce your wife at such a stage,
but when the kids are so small, it has a certain impact on the children.
Plus the fact that the recent developments in this country are not exactly American favourable for.
Any particular developments you're referring to here?
There was a thing called Brexit at the end of January.
If not a completely mistaken.
Correct.
That's only a few days ago.
Yep.
And I think let's put it this way.
Lassie wasn't exactly in favour of this happening.
There weren't many people in favour of it.
But somehow it still managed to happen.
Okay.
You see, this is the trouble with democracy, right?
If you invent democracy, people can vote.
Yes.
And people avoid voting at all costs.
Exactly.
So, I mean, yeah, I mean, you see, especially in olden times,
when the likes of Lassie still had their way and they say that wouldn't have happened
because Boris would have been a in the tower, be decapitated and seek water in no time.
There wouldn't have been a Brexit in the first place.
You see.
Correct.
But was this nonsense of democracy and never mind only a constitutional monarchy,
the rain for the people who are easily influenced by evil politicians was free.
So votes could be swung.
And this is what they made.
I mean, you know, happened to democracy in Germany there, right, Chris?
We do, but we do it in sensible way, I think.
By not having a geoproposal representation now.
We do.
Okay.
Does that work for you?
Most of the time it does.
Okay.
But then you look at a strange country anyway,
because I've driven its foot in much of the bill of Europe, right?
Or for Europe, whatever.
I mean, in terms of money.
Yes.
Alongside France and England, so it's very, it's very sad to see England go.
Never mind what head what NHS is losing out on or won't get back.
Interesting point.
But there we are.
It's Germany has taken over Europe once again.
Does it?
Does it?
Okay.
Well, I'm funding it all.
Well, ask the Greek.
I don't know.
But where were you?
Okay.
Mexico.
Mexico.
Yes.
Of course.
Did you know actually that the business plan had had what has one fatal mistake?
Business plan.
Sorry.
And Megan's and and and Harries.
Well, they won't get any cash anymore.
From the.
This is to this is to be debated.
No, they only trademark.
Because it's in pass.
And what's called.
Sussex royals or something in Great Britain.
Not behind.
Change of China is an American law.
Protected.
Whatever.
And so whenever you want to.
Whenever you want to sell a mark with their with their faces on it.
Sussex royals.
You can only claim money in the UK for doing so in terms of.
And you can only.
They can only make money.
That's all the thing.
In the UK.
Yeah.
In the UK.
And that's a major flaw in their business plan.
Well, who would want a mug with a mug zone anyway, right?
Give out what remain remaining 70% of the of something called the Commonwealth of Nations.
They want to mug with the.
The Megan's on it to.
Just take a look at Canada Australia and some other splinter countries.
They're big into into the monarchy of the rest of them.
Yeah.
This is only the people that actually turn up when they visit, right?
So they're waving some flags around.
That's just like a thousand people in general population.
Have you taken a look at at the sales figure since Diana died of.
Associated memorabilia.
No, I'm afraid not.
This is not really.
Check it out.
And they're not really.
Especially this.
That doesn't matter.
That doesn't matter.
Just take a look at the money that they were making.
They see.
And so.
Yeah.
So you're actually quite interested in the monarchy there.
Well, it's.
I mean.
I don't see it said about five thousand years ago.
You close the closer to the enemy you are.
The higher the chance of that you win the war, right?
It's not because you're missing such a fabulous institution.
I know.
I do not.
That's fair.
No.
How does it feel there for a moment?
Okay.
Disclaimer on half Irish almost anyway.
So.
Which half?
I'm really sorry.
That's not good.
That's not good.
Okay.
No.
Of course, my heart is out there with Lizzie and friends.
Not only from a large perspective, but anyway.
Okay.
Back to this exit.
Yes.
The thing is that.
This is not exactly come knowledge, but it's very handy.
Because what we what what I'm a self-reduing when you come down to Linus in those that you we are changing the websites.
You're changing the website rather.
I'm from both sides of the canal, meaning that on the server.
Actually, I'm a server because now it's running again with a delay about that.
Right.
Yes.
And there is a serverless instance of Git and being able to accept so called pushes not even not pull requests, but just pushes.
So might as well are contributing to that website through Git.
And as part of a push of content to that website.
Because Martin decided would be good to use markdown to construct the website.
We're using Pandock.
That's probably another tech tip for another episode.
Pandock essentially translates markdown to HTML.
Among other things, right.
And mark on things.
Exactly.
So what it does when you send a push to the server.
It does a full checkered of the website.
So any template changes, any CSS change, whatever are then life immediately after a push on the website.
Plus you invoke you invoke Pandock.
And this Pandock then takes any modified markdown and trans and translates it into HTML than it there.
Meaning that after each push, the website has been updated life.
And this is something in Git that's called a hook.
You find this in your directory called dot Git in the hook sub directory.
This is a first documented.
It's not something that is highly known very, very known off.
No, no, no, no, no.
No widely.
Let's put it this way.
But it's very handy.
It's a nice bit of automation because you can put any commands into this and into the hooks.
Because essentially these hooks are just shell scripts that you execute.
Or that gets executes upon certain actions like a commit, like a push and so forth document, check it out.
But it comes in really handy for that sort of scenario.
Excellent.
Yeah, no, it's working really well.
Great setup there.
Okay, given the fact that we're clocking in just about an hour.
Now time for the vices of the week.
Martin, what's your vice?
Last week was kind of busy.
So not really got around to any vices.
I'm afraid it's just been too hectic.
And something was the, no, no, just a few beers is probably the worst.
What, what beers are you referring to?
Doom bar, two detailer.
Two ten more.
Quality beers are just in, but just scrap ale.
Sorry, asking.
We have a diverse survey of taste records tonight.
Obviously mine being the more knowledgeable one here.
But you just like some gassy IPAs from...
We had microbreweries that are artificial and so on.
For those who enjoy a genuine beer taste.
Crapiae helps in other words.
Do it like that, Martin.
Please do.
You spent some time in Ireland, isn't your Chris?
So did you drink IPAs there?
No.
That was before the Crapia rave.
Yes, following the trends.
Yes, given the fact that I'm somewhat older follower version.
That's okay.
No, what was the last good day that you drank?
Apart from the ones that we drank in Prague.
It's been a while.
But they have been many since.
Why does that surprise me?
Okay.
Yes.
Okay.
My voice of the week, there are two voices actually.
It's something called Atlantic ale.
Doom bar stredernecker.
It's actually indeed a craft beer.
And there's something called fucking hell.
Have you heard about this, Martin?
It's a place in Germany, no?
Is that Austria or Germany?
Yes.
And something called hell is the local brew?
This is why the beer is cold.
Yes.
What came first?
The beer or the place name?
The place name.
Are you sure you didn't just invent a local village
to form marketing reasons there?
No, I'm quite positive.
Okay.
It doesn't sound very German somehow, this name.
Hell?
No, it sounds British.
And that's what I don't know.
That's what I don't know.
That's what you want to be actually.
No, in Germany, it would be fucking,
which is close to what's what I'm looking for.
I don't know.
Does it mean anything?
No.
Let's see.
In contrast to the English word.
No.
That refers to a certain sex activity, no?
Anyway, so long story short about what,
50, 20 years ago,
some chapters are brewery there.
And call it hell is the word for,
it's a German word for a sort of export as a light beer.
And it's called fucking hell.
So fucking hell people.
If you're listening to this,
we are looking for social sponsors.
Please do get in touch.
We have slots for you.
And we like your beer.
And we like your beer.
Of course we do.
Yeah.
We have to.
No, it's just not.
It's just a bad car.
Land the game.
It's also fucking hell.
Do get in touch.
I'm sure we can,
we can come to some sort of sponsorship arrangement.
Okay, these were my two vices,
anything else that we should,
yeah, of course,
next show of modern.
Do tell what's on next.
That will be the third episode.
Third episode.
Yes.
Yes.
Well, by then,
we hope we have had a
inundational feedback and requests for honestness.
If we don't,
we will continue broadcast.
We will, of course, continue.
Not an empty threat.
Yeah.
Indeed.
It's clever.
You have to work.
Yes.
Excellent.
So if,
if you like two old parts rambling on the politics,
strange technology things that you haven't even heard about,
all that might be your next job.
Do continue to listen.
We do appreciate feedback.
The website again is called linuxinloss.eu.
No dashes.
Just one dot between you and linux.
In laws.
And the email address is feedback at linux.eu.
As I said, the website is a work, is a labor of love.
And it's working progress.
But it will continue to thrive.
We will continue to broadcast this on Hacker Public Radio.
Can again pleasure meeting you at At Forstam.
Keep up the good work.
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Tough luck.
We will continue to use our own music.
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Like forward to the next one.
Indeed.
All the best and
stay tuned.
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