hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr1041.txt

Episode: 1041
Title: HPR1041: Home from H.O.P.E.
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1041/hpr1041.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-17 17:51:26

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Well, this is NY Bill, and we thought we'd just talk a bit about the Hope Conference
or our thoughts about it, and maybe some of you don't know about the Hope Conference
and can get to the next one.
So we should say what the Hope Conference is, it's hackers on planet Earth, and it's put
on by the guys that do 2600, and they do it every two years at the hotel pen in New York
City, and we three met each other there, so if only we could have spent more time.
Yeah, that is tough, there's talk after talk after talk, so yeah, we didn't have much
time to chat.
And for that matter, there are four tracks of talks, and there's almost always two interesting
things going on at the same time, so not only is there no downtime to do other stuff,
but you're missing something no matter what you do anyway.
Yeah, and of course, there's the vendor area and the little projects that had hackerspace.
Yeah, lock pick village, that's always interesting.
They had a complete solder set up so you could sit and build projects.
So were you guys there all three days?
I was.
I was there as well.
Okay, I only made a Saturday this time, so I did miss a lot of talks.
Well, they do put all of the talks up eventually online, I know all of the past talks they've
been putting up, so I would expect these will end up there sooner than later anyway.
The radio statler stuff is already going up, so I know none of you probably got a chance
to keep up with any of that, but it's up now.
Any talk stick out to you guys?
Oh man, so many of them.
The one about how hackerspaces are too much male white clubs and need to be attracting
more people, get more blood in there, that one was really good.
It was entertaining and informative and I got a big kick out of it.
I know I saw it, I even mogulans talk on smartphones and how we have these computers
honest at all times and that they should be obeying the first law of robotics, Isaac
Asimov's idea of that, because these are computers that are there ostensibly to do our
bidding and the first law of robotics is that they should do no harm to the user and
the current phones that we are carrying around, don't do that.
He's basically saying that these are robots, we are their hands and feet, we carry them
around, but they don't necessarily do our bidding or even not work to, they might even
work against our interests or try to harm us, so it was a very compelling talk and actually
I bought the DVD from that, so if it doesn't go up soon maybe I'll put that up some
more.
Yeah, it seems like half of our phones function is sending everything back to the
motorship to be sold to advertisers, so yes.
I got lucky in my brother-in-law, Lidsair and Manhattan, and I was directly across the
street from the Google building.
I got, came home, which one, the one on Tannin Chelsea there?
Chelsea, yes.
I got home Thursday from walking around your city all day and plugged in the phone and
it said, hey, you've got an update, and so I got jelly bean right then and there that
evening and I attributed it to right across the street from the mothership.
That's right, speaking of the city, I should mention that if anybody is thinking of attending
hope the next time they do it and you can take a train and the hotel is directly across
the street from Penn station, so you just walk out of the train, up two flights as there
is across the street and you're at the convention, that is handy.
The whole city is handy.
I rode the subway once and I was in a taxi once.
I took the bus from the Jersey airport, but besides that I was on foot the whole time
I was there and had no problem getting around besides the taxi's trying to run me over.
I almost got hit by a handsome cab once, which is those horse-drawn carriages.
Wow, nice.
Everybody kind of times the lights and the walk and do not walk and you can just run across
the street whenever you want and somehow my brain was not paying attention to standing
right there was a horse, so I just start walking, there's no cars coming, so I start walking
out of the street and the guy must hit the horse with the lashes or something and the
thing, we need like right in my face and lesson learned.
Yeah, you always be careful crossing the streets in New York, always look both ways, even
on one way streets.
Yeah, never know.
No, I also took the train in and from the Jersey and yes it is an easy experience you
go into Penn station, you know, up a flight of stairs and right across the street is the
hotel, it's really couldn't be easier.
Unless you walk up Penn station and go out the back side like I did, I had to walk around
three sides.
Yeah, well, there is that I suppose.
You know, we really ought to encourage people, I know some of us tend to be kind of live
under a rock, either at work or your keyboard.
This was such a great experience.
I came out from Idaho on the way in, had two hour layover in San Fran and a gentleman
asked to join me at my table while it was having lunch, turned out he was a high pressure
physicist, so he spent the whole two hours talking about his field, was having breakfast
out in front of Times Square and saw her all the walk past me.
And then on the way back, I had a very nice young woman, she was a TV host in India on
the flight back to, let's see, I had to land in Phoenix.
So you know, right there, I got to meet all kinds of cool people, I got to meet you guys,
everybody out there, I feel like I had a whole years' worth of experiences in just those
three days, four days in New York, you know.
Yeah, it doesn't hurt that the conference is in the city because it is fun.
Yeah, right in the middle of the town, it couldn't be a better location.
You just walk, well you can walk across the street and get food or you can just go in any
direction and you can find great restaurants and you can fill your time there.
You could make hope into a week vacation and that's what we did when I went two years
ago.
Oh, speaking of meeting us, I had to do a little stalker stuff before I met you.
I didn't know what you looked like and I went on HPR and then I saw a link to Flickr
and I looked through your Flickr page and I go, all right, I think I know what this guy
looks like because we were going to try, we said before we were going to try and meet up
and I didn't have time to tell you this but at 9 a.m., I was down near the hacker space
and I go up to this guy and I tap on his shoulder, I go, are you an HPR guy and he goes,
huh?
There is somebody there that has the same like a soul patch, like the GoT thing there.
So whoever that was was very confused as to even what HPR was or what this guy was asking
who he was.
So my description in that first email was that helpful at all?
No, actually, I think during the Yes Men talk, Murf, you got a chair and then I stayed
by this column and Kubemo, you must have been standing by the curtains where they shut
those windows.
And some seat opened and all of a sudden you walked right in front of me and I go, oh,
yeah, that's the guy.
So before we met, I spotted you out and then after the talk, that's when I sat down
behind you.
Yeah, it would have been great if we'd had more time where we could have gone meal and
done some talking.
Yeah, if I had stayed over, maybe we could have, I was just there for what, eight or nine
hours.
Yeah.
Well, it was good that you took the opportunity to come down nonetheless though.
So even just spending, you know, the middle part of the day there, I'm sure you still got
plenty out of it.
Yeah, it is fun.
Actually, before my train, I had about 40 minutes.
So I went across the street to this bar and I actually met one of the staff there, the
hope staff.
And we got talk and we talked for 20 minutes.
And he had never heard of, he had never heard of HPR and I explained it all to him and
like the community and basically the 2600 people are the same community.
So he says he's going to check out HPR and then I mentioned to him that sometimes HPR people
are at conferences and we have like the tablecloth and the signage and the swag and the stickers
and stuff and possibly at the next hope if we got some people together, could we have
a table and he said, yeah, you can arrange it through email or if you, you know, if you
get there, just come and do your one of the tables because they're back by the hacker
space.
Right.
Yeah, I was thinking about that during the conferences.
We should try to do that next time.
Yeah, if we can get a few HPR people there and we'll run a table.
Yeah, that's definitely feasible.
I could definitely help with that because this one's close enough that I can devote more
time to it.
Did you guys make it over to the talk where the gal was, was enhancing her, she had a,
she had a, some damage to one of her ears, she had surgery on it and the outer part of
her ear, the cochlear and all is still good, but the, the, the outer part was removed.
So she was trying to figure out a way to get sound back into her head.
So she created a helmet that pipes vibration into her skull and allows her to hear again.
I was wondering if, if you said in on that one, it was a real short talk, but it was
pretty neat.
No, it sounds interesting, but I didn't see it.
Yeah.
That sounds like exactly the type of cool hacker stuff you hear about it, hope.
Exactly.
Well, she had one of the lightning talks or a scheduled speaker.
No, she had a, she had a scheduled spot in nut and it, it wasn't very long, but she
would, she showed some slides.
She's got a blog called Wired where she, she covers it, but it was, it was pretty neat.
I, send her some stuff, I, I've seen some, they call it bone induction speakers.
I was thinking that maybe she could simplify her designs so she didn't have to walk around
with a construction helmet on her head, but it was really neat, got me, got me excited,
I'm going to play with some more audio stuff now because of that.
Cool.
Interesting.
Something that I liked was the, there was a history of portable computers.
Actually Murph, when you said, was I here and do you want to go get lunch?
That's the talk I was in.
That was like before clamshell laptops or the laptops that we know of all the interesting
computers that came out before that.
Anything that would compute and head batteries in it.
There was also, I don't know if you guys saw the marching exhibit down in the, you know,
down on the second floor where they have a lot of vintage computer stuff.
They're a local group to me and they're, they always have a lot of interesting stuff out
there as well.
That's some of the single board computers, some of the stuff, the pre, pre PC stuff.
I saw like a plexiglass see through Apple one or Apple two.
It was really interesting.
He was explaining to somebody that it was not any, an original Apple one, but was original.
So, there, there was nothing on that board that, that wasn't exactly like they originally
had laid it out and was trying to, to make the point to the guy that, that know it, you
know, it wasn't original one, but it was as original as you could possibly get.
Nice pieces of equipment.
Oh, I just, I just remembered something funny.
I went downstairs to buy postcards because we have like a little group of people we send
postcards to and while I'm in there, I'm paying for them and the lady reads the badge, which
is an interesting badge.
The badge to get in this time was a passport, it actually looks like a real passport.
Yeah.
She goes, she reads the badge, she goes hackers on planet earth, she goes, you're, you're
one of them and she, and she goes, when I saw you people were showing up, I called my husband
and said, the bad people are upstairs.
I tried to explain hackers and hackers to her and, you know, most of us are good guys.
I mean, sure, there's a few black hats up there, but I mean, the hacker is a good term.
I don't think I met one bad person my whole trip.
I sat next to somebody trying to crack Wi-Fi, pull a sniff and packets and he was, he
was up to a little bit, but, you know, I'm sure it was fun.
Honestly, at a hacker conference, that's fair game as far as I'm concerned.
I brought a machine that I was perfectly willing to have compromised horribly and it didn't
happen, at least not that I know of, but it was a tablet that I brought, wiped clean before
I walked in the door, expecting that people were going to be fooling around with stuff.
And when I found out, apparently I was for a time on a spoofed version of the conference
Wi-Fi and not the actual Wi-Fi, shrugged my shoulders and went, okay, because I wasn't
doing anything exceptionally important.
I didn't see your picture up on any wall of shame, so you were right.
Yeah, they don't do a wall of shame like Def Condo's, although that would be fun.
It would probably be redundant there because I'm sure people were also hitting all sorts
of stuff in the area.
So there'd be lots of people up there that would never see their own names because they
weren't actually in the conference.
Yeah, I make sure before I go to hope just, before I leave the house, make sure my server's
running so I can SSH tunnel to it and pipe everything through safely.
And either you make it to the Byzantine Linux talk?
No.
It was a pre-configured distro for loading into a machine and setting up an instant mission
network.
And they actually handed out 500 disks down in the hacker space.
Wow, I know, I missed that.
But I saw this morning that on Boyn Boyn, Cory had said that they had released the ISO.
So there's a link on Boyn Boyn today on WordGrad that ISO.
But it's pretty cool.
I've often thought that it'd be nice to have a, I guess, a darknet or a non-affiliated
internet that we were talking offline there that the problem is that we need more people
who are willing to set one up because everybody's so far apart.
Yeah, like I belong to Albany 2600, a local group and we often talk about machine networking
but we live too far apart.
However, I might grab this ISO now and just bring it to one of the meetings and we can
fool around with it while we're at the meeting.
You did it.
Yeah, you can fool around with it there.
Yeah, the problem when you have something, like I was talking about before we started,
I had no LPC and the machine networking that was really interesting unless you're the
only one that has one.
Then you're like the guy that bought one walkie-talkie and say, hey, I don't have anybody to talk to
on this thing.
The static is my friends.
Exactly.
So we were talking about talks.
I don't know.
Did either of you sit in on Stephen Rambams' privacy post-mortem?
That's right when I was heading back for the trains, I know I missed that one.
Right.
Yeah, that's always interesting.
He does something similar each year but shows you just how much information you give
up and how easily that's collected together and given to advertisers or other people that
ask for it.
Yeah, he is a private investigator so he mentions a lot how I saw his talk two years ago at
the last hope.
Yeah, he mentions just give him your name in five minutes.
He's got everything.
After the talk, he was in that little area in between Dennis and not how to bunch of
people around him and was still going.
He was still preaching the message.
I'm convinced he could go for six, eight hours without even taking breath without taking
a break.
Very interesting guy though.
He should mention that these are room names, Dennis and not in Sassman.
These were where the different tracks are held.
Did they name them different every year?
Yes, they do.
This year it was named after Dennis Ritchie.
The open track was, oh, I forget his name, roughly something.
Sassman?
Well, yes.
Sassman was one of them and there's another one named after one of the early guys and
microcomputers.
I know he showed up on the March list his obituary, another person that passed, who was
very big in the early like the single board computer days, he was very big into that
stuff.
So.
Both since Dean?
Yes, that's it.
Yeah, I couldn't recall the name, but that was one of the names.
And the other two, Sassman and not, I wasn't familiar with either of those names.
Did either of you catch, I think his name is Bill Binney, either.
No, I got the right as he was finishing that up, so I only saw the tail end of it and
I didn't really get what the whole thing was about.
That's one of the ones I'll catch up on on video later.
I'm trying to think of the three letter organization he was with, the NSA.
I was just going to say, I believe that's the NSA.
And he started getting fed up with how much they're collecting on every day people walking
around on the street, and he was kind of a whistleblower for them.
Well, and how corrupt the whole thing is, and when you call them on it, they're like,
well, yeah, you know, it can't stare at the feet.
Yeah.
They've all pledged an oath to the Constitution, and it's whatever brings money into the
department to keep the department going.
Yeah, exactly.
I watched a video of him giving a talk, it wasn't hope, but it was from something else,
totally.
I kind of know, maybe I know what the talk would have been, but it must have been a day I
wasn't there.
It was amazing.
Nice.
Yeah, I caught the very tail end of it, so I didn't entirely get what was going on with
it, but I'm sure it was, you know, it sounded interesting from just the part I caught.
And they had maker bots there.
That was interesting to see too.
Did you guys see them on the mezzanine?
Oh, yes.
I'm so jealous.
Yeah.
And they seemed to be making bigger and bigger stuff with those.
Every time I see them, you know, the first few times I saw them, they were doing little,
you know, like game pieces, little, you know, little tuxes that were about an inch high.
Now they're making these rather large and elaborate structures that's getting, you know,
one looked, one was like a human skull about, you know, basically the size of a human skull.
It was a little more cartoonish, but yeah, they're making bigger stuff.
And then right across from that one, the maker bot was a, a gal that was selling a kit
for $650 that she had bought a replicator.
And it was just a pain in the butt to build and it required you, you getting a sourcing
your own parts.
And she said, you know, this, this could be a lot easier.
So after her and her family put this one together, they went ahead and sourced their own
parts and build a bunch of stuff and they've got a whole unit that they sell you for $650.
I didn't see any parts that they were making that, that I don't know if it was just what
they chose to make or it has less resolution as the maker bot, but none of the stuff on
her table really looked as nice as the stuff on the maker bot table, but it could have been
just what she was making.
Our 2600 group locally, we're trying to get a hack space going now, we're, we're visiting
places and I guess Elise will have to be signed and things like that, but that's one of the
projects that keeps getting kicked around, making, getting into maker bots or building our
own, etc.
Yeah, if I could get a hold of a laser cutter and a maker bot, I'd be happy is going to be nice.
I actually work for a company who makes fiber optics and I keep trying to find the reasons,
you know, I was like, well, you know, if we could, if we could mark that part with something
like say a laser scribe, we could track that a lot better after bringing that up every
so often.
This sounds like this is the, this is how we got our log in the office building, the
IT guy runs it and he went to his boss and said, hey, if we can have this log on the
weekend, we'll test all the network changes that I make before Monday.
So similar.
Anything you guys wanted to touch on?
Run through the, the talks here real quick.
I was looking, I know I enjoyed the meme factory guys, but I can't recall for the life of
me what the hell it was about.
Is this at the start of the Yes Men?
Yeah, no, no, it was before the Yes Men, yeah, kill the internet, get now I recall having
seen the title.
They put on a good presentation and a lot of, so I'd like to see their full presentation
because they normally have three screens going and the three of them talking.
So it sounds like they put a lot of effort into presentation, so I'd like to sort of
see their full presentation.
I'm sure there are videos up, I'm going to go search it down.
Another talk I saw was all about encryption on the web and I think the guys project was
called CryptoCat, but wow, some of that went right over my head, acronyms I've never heard
of and encryption algorithms and I don't really encrypt things, but it was, it was definitely
good.
Yeah, there's always stuff you end up not understanding there, sometimes you get a little
acronym down, but interesting.
But you're also sitting there getting a talk from the guy that's running the project,
which is, I mean, if you've got a question after or if you're into it or you want to
help, be just, most of the people say, you know, I'll be over there in the hallway, come
on up and see me, you're very receptive.
Yeah, everybody was very approachable.
I spent a good 10 minutes talking with Gus at one point and I got pictures with Emanuel
and Bernie S.
And that guy with the boot on his head, that's your new avatar, and I think it's
very important.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Vroom and Supreme.
Yeah, it is like a, it's a whirlwind of activity, the whole three days.
They down near the hacker space, did you see, like the 20 or 30, like, cots?
So people just come and they just crash whenever and some people don't even get a hotel
room.
Oh, wow.
Yep.
Yep.
At the last hope, I woke up at 3 a.m. I just couldn't sleep and I went down to work
on that badge, slaughtering on the badge, and there was still 8 or 10 people there, and
the one kid had been there Friday, this was Saturday night, and he hadn't slept yet.
It's just like coffee, coffee, coffee.
Or is it Club Mate?
Yeah, I don't know if I'd, I don't know if I'd seriously go to sleep on one of those
cots because you might wake up and find, you know, no wallet, your phone's been rooted
by somebody else, and you know, who knows what could be happening.
People do it though, I walked past, I walked past about 4 p.m. and there were people crashed
on it.
Did you guys get a chance to ride a segway?
I did.
That was great.
Are you both there, huh?
Yeah, they're neat little devices.
Yeah, yeah.
I've seen them there for years, and usually when I go buy, there's a big line, but I happen
to go buy there, and there was only a couple of people there, so I got right on one.
They're neat little devices, they're easy to ride, and I like the way they have, you
know, they have a little course for you to go down, and at the end of one hallway, there's
an open window at the end of not open, but not covered up with anything, so there is
just glass.
So, basically, you're going down a hallway towards, you know, overlooking 7.0.
You start since sparks and smoke, and you're heading towards that window?
Yeah.
Yeah, but those are neat things.
I saw some people, you know, going really slow on them.
I found a very intuitive to ride, so, yeah, I got the tires squealing around a couple
of the corners.
That was kind of fun.
The first day, there was a point where there was nobody over there, so I went over and
hopped on one and went around the course and came back, and I tried to film myself for
the kids, and that didn't really work out very well, just, you see me grinning like an
idiot, and the tires, and then, so that the next day, I happen to be walking towards
escalator, and I know there was nobody standing over there again, so I asked the gout, she
let me just run it down the line and turn around, come back while she filmed with my phone,
so the kids could see me riding one, but it was a hoot.
I guess I didn't take a left there.
I saw people, like DJs, making music and stuff, right along the escalators, but I didn't
go over there.
Yeah, they had a synthesizer drum machine hooked up to a connect, so people were just waving
their hands in front of it, making music with it, but if you just walked past them,
yeah, if you just walked past them, they had the segues back there.
Yeah, I was going down the escalator and somebody was just waving their hands around,
only, so he was controlling the music.
Yes, exactly.
I always have the fear that I'm missing something, there's something I haven't seen.
I felt like that through the whole conference, did any of you make it to that sixth floor
and see what was going on there?
No.
No, that was new this year, and no, I never made it there, and that feeling you have
that you're missing something when you're in hope, that is almost certainly correct,
because there's always so much going on, you can't possibly see it all.
You just have to go and soak in what you can and enjoy it.
People start congregating around 8.39 o'clock, and then the talk started at 10 and they go
right to midnight.
Yeah, so try and catch your sleep and take a shower, that's what they keep telling everyone.
I would love to set down at the lock picker area and got some instruction and played
with some stuff, but every time I'd see an empty chair, I'd think, well, you got to
be down, you got to be up at a talk in a few minutes or I'm going to miss something
over here.
Yep.
Yeah, a lot of fun, a lot of interesting stuff.
I highly recommend it to everybody, and I've trouble talking people into it, although
I was surprised this year, I saw two people from my lug there, so I was kind of happy
that some of them showed up.
Yeah, good guys, I'm glad they showed up, but I'm surprised that not everybody from
my lug should show up there.
Some people we talk to that live in the city or in New York, they hadn't heard about it
or they had forgotten about it.
Right.
Yeah, which is kind of mind blowing of all the things, it's once every other year and
it's a great conference for anybody, anybody even vaguely interested in technology or activism
or civil rights, there's so much stuff going on there, and it's so interesting, just
someone off the street, it hardly seems like someone wouldn't be able to find something
interesting to look at.
Exactly.
I should mention too that 2600 has two podcasts, so if you're listening to them, believe
me, you'll know Hope is coming up, but they have off the hook and off the wall, so off
the hook is more like hackery stuff, and off the wall can be general topics, but you'll
hear about Hope through them, believe me.
Yeah, off the wall I have lack a little patience for, because I've sort of dubbed it Immanuel
Wines about everything, because that's a lot of time when it's on being, but yeah, anyway
there's a little travel on here.
I can't possibly have missed it.
Yeah, sometimes they're interesting, sometimes they drag on a bit, in my opinion.
Yeah, the ones where he's grabbing a lot of ambient sound from different places, I really
enjoy those.
Yeah, one that I liked, they were, I think they were in the Czech Republic or somewhere
over, but they walked out to like a ghost rail line that was no longer open, but we're
getting off topic.
It's certainly a great conference, and I wonder if they're ever going to put an upper
limit on attendance for that, because I know they hit somewhere in the neighborhood of
2000 this time, which is a pretty healthy number, and they opened up that sixth floor, I
think, as a response to that, because there were a lot more standing room only talks than
I recall in past year.
I actually thought to bring this up with you guys, and while you just did, but yeah, they
seemed to be out growing that venue a bit.
Well, I think it would be tough to outgrow the venue.
I think they're just going to take over more of the hotel as time goes by.
Stuff like, you know, there was a whole first floor there that seemed to be abandoned.
They've grown onto the sixth floor.
I'm sorry, I didn't get to the sixth floor to see what was going on there.
This is the first I'm hearing about it.
What was that?
Were there talks there?
There were barely workshops going on.
I know, like Stephen Rambam said, he was going down to the sixth floor, and they were
going to do an hour, and I can hardly see how he can restrain himself to just an hour,
of going through, do you want to, how do you investigate stuff, do you want to look at
my databases, which kind of blew my mind, and that type of thing, and I would presume
he was probably talking through the whole thing, because he has such a wealth of information
and perfectly willing to share it.
Yeah, I did hear about workshops, but I guess I didn't connect on that they were on
another floor.
Yeah, on the sixth floor, and I didn't make it down there at all.
I think that's where all the dancing and art stuff happened, and the, there was the
FCC, the hammery, registration testing going on down there as well.
Yeah, that's another thing I wanted to study up and take the test, but I didn't get
around to doing the actual studying into that.
I would have liked to have gotten my ham license.
So I guess what we're saying is, get to hope next time.
Yeah, you got two years to plan.
Yeah, plenty of time.
And if you let me know, you're coming, I will stalk you online and be able to pick you
out of the crowd.
So you guys, if you guys want to give some contact information.
If you want to talk to Koovmo, that's QVMOH at gmail.com.
Oh, I'm NY Bill at gunmonkeynet.net, or NY Bill on Identica.
I am Merf on Identica, M-U-R-P-H, and as far as email, you can get me at Merf at member.fsf.org.
Nice.
So I hope to catch you guys at some conferences in between with some of us to usually meet
up.
So, but otherwise, hope to see you in two years.
Sounds good.
Sounds good.
Hope to see you before then.
I will see you two and hopefully more HPR listeners at the next hope.
Nice.
Get the hope, people.
Thanks, guys.
Yeah, thank you Bill for sending this up.
Oh, no problem.
See ya.
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