hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr3288.txt

Episode: 3288
Title: HPR3288: Linux Inlaws S01E25: The Grumpy Old Coders
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3288/hpr3288.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-24 20:18:26

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This is Haka Public Radio Episode 3288 for when they were 10th on March 2021.
Today's show is entitled, Linux In-Loness Nero 1.25.
The drum build code and in part of the series, Linux In-Lon, it is hosted by Monochrome,
and in about 60 minutes long, and carry the next visit flag.
The summary is, our heroes host an episode with an eclectic duo, not Waldoff or Tatler.
This episode of HPR is brought to you by Ananasthost.com.
Get 15% discount on all shared hosting with the offer code HPR15.
That's HPR15.
Better web hosting that's honest and fair at Ananasthost.com.
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This is Linux In-Los.
A podcast on topics around free and open-source software, any associated contraband,
communism, the revolution in general, and whatever else, fans is critical.
Please note that this and other episodes may contain strong language, offensive humor,
and other certainly not politically correct language.
You have been warned.
Our parents insisted on this disclaimer.
Happy Mom?
That's the content is not suitable for consumption in the workplace, especially when played back
on the speaker in an open-plan office or similar environments.
Any miners under the age of 35 or any pets, including fluffy little killer bunnies,
your trusted guide dog, unless on speed, and Q2T Rexys or other associated dinosaurs.
Dear listeners, good evening.
Wherever you're listening to, from whatever, doesn't matter.
Tonight is a very special episode because we have Martin guests on the show, right?
Martin, would you do the honor?
Yes, I'd love it.
Yes, and introduce the GAMPRI old quarters.
For those few listeners who do not know who they are.
Yes.
Before the interviews themselves.
Well, why don't we get them to introduce ourselves?
They can say much better than we can.
Excellent.
Let's do this.
Let's do this.
David.
You told me I don't need to prepare anything.
This is sort of preparation.
Yeah, indeed, indeed.
Yeah, my name is David, and I'm together with Thomas.
Right, Thomas will introduce himself in a second, but we are the crumpy old quarters.
So, our meaning, we have a podcast with this name.
If you don't know it yet, maybe listen to it.
Maybe we'll be showing it.
No, no, no, no.
Stop this podcast now.
Yeah, I'll do it.
You are from the party.
We got it, we got it.
We got to cut this out.
Just regard your history.
Anyway, right?
So, you have maybe a bit about me, right?
So I would call myself a database expert.
Work for a bunch of open source companies in the past.
And yeah, I'm doing no SQL consulting CD if you want to, right?
And I'm working quite a lot with a company called RedisNaps,
the same company.
Christoph is working with full disclosure.
Yes, I'm working for RedisNaps.
Okay, Thomas.
Isn't used to, by the way.
Yes.
So, Thomas, over to you.
Okay, should I go then?
Absolutely.
Well, I'm a, I'm a tech guy.
I suppose I've been writing software for since 2004,
which is, I don't know, 57 years now.
And I've worked for several companies, including small companies,
big companies,
work for semantic,
but also for sort of five people consulting businesses.
And since, well, since about a half year, I'm a cloud guy now.
So I work for Amazon Web Services in their public sector service thing,
service arm,
so professional services slash solution architecture,
slash proof of concept writing, that sort of thing.
Yeah, that's me.
So you cover the public sector working for public cloud provider.
Okay.
Yes, so the way it works.
Yeah, it is a public cloud provider.
Yes, of course, it's the public cloud.
Well, Amazon also has private clouds.
So that is the US government cloud.
The China cloud, I think I don't remember if there's a Germany cloud for Amazon.
I think there is, but I'm not sure I should actually notice, but I don't.
And what we do is we write proof of concept software for the public sector,
public sector, obviously, meaning governments health.
So one of our customers, the NHS, things like that.
We write proof of concepts on what they can do with the cloud.
We do this for free.
And we hand that software over to them.
And then it's up to them if they want to use it.
So it is, it is showing the power of the cloud.
Basically, the business model is, of course, then that they use the software.
And, you know, we get paid via consumption.
Computers launch consumption.
That's the idea.
So yeah, that's me.
If the NHS has finally run into an internet brick wall due to some software thing,
it's just still the NHS for it because you just wrote the thing,
but have it over to the NHS.
I suppose so.
I mean, yeah, we do say it's proof of concept code.
So we do say, okay, very important.
Yes.
Yeah, it's very important.
If you want to productionize this, then, you know, you need to go to some,
whatever's needed to productionize it, you know, there might be
ISO certifications of the processes, you know, there might be additional hardening steps
like improving the test coverage and all that sort of thing.
We just say it's a proof of concept to show you what's possible.
That's sort of all stands.
Yeah, for disclosure, of course, the NHS will never run into a brick wall because
it's governed back.
Yes, we all know.
Right.
So no fear.
We put no fear.
I suppose so.
I didn't realize you had an NHS in Germany as well.
Yeah, that is surprising.
I'm firm.
I'm referring to the UK entity as a matter of fact.
I didn't realize Thomas works in the UK as well.
There's lots of things.
I live in the UK.
Yeah, I should have said that in the introduction, shouldn't I?
So I am German, as you can clearly hear by my daughter, Jackson,
and I live in the UK since 2009.
Wow.
Okay.
So what's it?
What's that now?
12 years.
Yeah.
And I'm struggling with my German is declining.
I remember when you left Germany, actually, right?
Interesting.
Yeah.
It was quite a new chapter, wasn't it?
Yeah.
So I reckon I'm the only one living in Germany because David lives in Bavaria,
which is, of course, not part of Germany.
But when he's not living, if I've been away so long, depends who's asked.
Right.
I would say it's one of Germany, but maybe, let me know.
I would say it's part of Germany, but yeah, they are from the variants if they are.
If you ask them, they are saying it's a part of Germany.
There's so many, but then just Germany.
Yeah.
For the closure.
Bavaria relates to Germany, like Texas, to be to the rest of the Federation.
Let's put it this way.
Martin, where do you are living in the UK?
Is well, right?
I am.
You are indeed, although you're not from there.
It depends how long far back you get.
About the usual 60 years, as in your age, Martin.
Exactly.
But then I'm not back from German origin, like the rest of it.
You see some people would dispute that, actually.
It depends.
For this time, Martin is Dutch for origin.
Right, which is not Germany last time I looked.
Yes, but you see that depends on the historical context about context about what?
A couple of thousand years ago, it was all one tribe, right?
Yeah, well, if you approach it from that way, there are no English people either.
Correct.
French people or Anglo-Saxon people or Viking people, you know.
Indeed.
Yes, very much so.
Yeah.
Welcome to the history, history of podcasts.
Okay.
Nick on Netflix the other day.
Great film.
If you're under that sort of thing.
What was the film?
The dig.
It's about the sudden food treasure in the garden where they found some amazing artifacts from the Anglo-Saxon period and the whole story.
Yeah, it's really good.
I would recommend it.
Yes.
The dig on Netflix.
Okay.
Okay, guys.
But I think enough about history.
The reason why we have to monitor Netflix advertisement.
Thank you very much.
I was streaming services all available.
Doesn't Amazon run their own thing or something?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And the reason why we brought the grumpy old quarters over is, of course, their podcasts.
And so the idea is to because we didn't prepare script as we as we normally don't to actually shut some light on how.
The grumpy old quarters rush and podcasting and to some extent also how we arrived at podcasting.
Of course, ever listeners of the loose in loss.
Probably know some details about this because there are a few episodes where we dropped hints.
But David Thomas, why don't you kind of give us a head start.
How the grumpy old quarter started and what finally basically convinced you to do your own thing in terms of a podcast.
Should I start Thomas?
Yeah.
Actually, I am doing a more, yeah, I started to do a podcast internally for Redis Labs, right?
So for the technical field at Redis Labs, as you know, Christophe, right?
Redis stars.
Yes.
I'm recommend it.
Redis stars is the.
Sorry.
You can be in turn one.
Okay.
Sorry.
Yes.
So the internal one basically for consulting solutions architects and whoever wants to listen to it.
Right.
And so yeah, I had to buy this equipment anyway.
This is one of the proper reasons for joining Redis Labs.
Redis Labs is hiring and being at Redis Labs, you get to listen to this podcast, but enough plugs now.
Yeah, exactly.
Actually, Redis Labs is in hiring technical enable the architect.
So if it is heading that department, I might.
So anyway, so are.
Yeah.
So we had to do this for educational reasons or for Redis Labs in order to promote and are kind of.
Yeah.
Underline the educational programs, which we have in addition, like trainings and so on, right?
So I thought it was a good idea to kind of provide people that are often traveling right on the road.
That kind of additional format where they can listen to knowledge and have a kind of alternative format.
Yeah.
And yeah, Thomas and me, we had for a while, the idea to do something together.
And when we met, I'm not sure how often we meet actually, Tom, right?
How often we met maybe once a quarter or something like this, right?
Yeah.
Just just for beer or something like that, right?
And yeah, we had ideas to do something together.
And then the idea was raised.
Hey, why not doing a podcast, right?
Because nowadays everyone has a podcast.
We do yes.
So yeah, the idea was born.
And then we kind of fought about how we name it.
And so like this.
Okay.
So how did you arrive at the name?
That was a trial.
I believe David's idea.
Yeah.
Actually, David.
Actually, if you know the Muppet Show, right?
It's the Muppet Show.
I believe there are those two crumpy old guys, right?
One of them.
Yeah, exactly.
And people sometimes compare Thomas and myself with those two crumpy guys.
Full disclosure.
David and Thomas borrowed the idea from somebody called,
because we had the podcast first.
And if you take a close look at the image on our landing page,
these are just hats put on part of an starter.
Ah, okay.
Actually, we're not aware of the rules.
That's okay.
Yeah.
You're not pulling anybody there.
Any anyway, right?
So basically based on the idea we had.
We had the idea of a podcast in 2015.
I see.
We just left it.
We were all too busy, right?
And then it's true.
I think last year, I think we finally started.
But we had the idea years and years ago.
Yeah, we know each other for more than 20 years.
Wow.
And yeah, as you said,
a couple indeed.
Yeah, and in a way.
And we don't see much of each other.
Because he's in the States or he is.
I don't know South Africa.
Israel lately, you know, wherever he is.
And I'm in the UK.
And yeah, that's just, you know,
just not much opportunity.
And yeah, this is, it's really enjoyable, actually.
Yeah.
Sometimes when I'm in the UK, right?
I mean, now due to Corona, we can't travel anymore.
Yeah.
It was more, I would travel with more in the past.
Right.
This was kind of fixed because I have small kids now.
But yeah, in the past, I was quite a lot traveling.
And didn't have always the opportunity to go to London, right?
Sometimes it is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it gives us to be honest, the motivation is more or less.
What happens to me to just have fun together, right?
To spend time together.
And nothing more than that.
Right.
So you just do our thing and whoever wants to listen in and find
it useful or can do this, right?
And who know who's not interested?
Who is not interested?
Right.
Yeah, that's right.
We basically do it for us.
And if people are listening, that's a bonus.
David, sorry, Martin, that rings a bell, right?
Yeah, that's what I was just going to ask.
How many beers did this decision take on your account?
That's a good question.
Well, this is Martin and I myself stopped counting after 10.
And no, we actually need any beer from that.
It's going to be one beer, right?
Maybe one or two.
Maybe one or two.
This is the official version, right?
I'm a lightweight.
10 beers would absolutely destroy me.
I couldn't tell you.
I think the maximum I could take so far was 12.
12.
Jesus.
Do you mean six liters or six liters?
I usually tap out after the fourth.
So that's sort of my level.
But this was an October fest.
This was an October fest, by the way.
David, you mentioned the barrier, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not originally originally the variant.
I was not with beer when I was young.
The party that chose to then, okay?
October fest.
Shall I turn my October fest story?
Please.
I'm not moving on.
Right.
So I was a part of a startup back in the day, which, of course,
failed, which is why, you know, I'm in employment again now.
And a part of my, some of my co-founders sort of.
They organized this meetup, right?
So let's meet these important people.
Go to the October fest.
Have some fun, right?
So one of those people that we met was the, I forgot his name.
The, the CEO of the good fellows, the coffee chain in Germany.
Right?
A cost of you, you know, good, good fellows.
Is it good fellows?
Some like that.
Coffee, coffee fellows.
Coffee fellows.
Coffee fellows.
Coffee fellows.
So people like that and was like, you know, just go there.
I have a little chat.
And I thought, okay, you know, let's stay sober.
Right.
Let's have one or two beers.
And that's it.
So I had, I hadn't eaten much in the day.
You can probably tell about the stories going, right?
So I hadn't eaten much and I thought, yeah, one, one beer, two beers.
And I was basically dead.
Right?
The guy had to almost carry me home.
And yeah, so that's my, that's my memory of, of the October fest.
So that's boring.
It's totally boring.
That is me.
To be fair.
Beer is a lethal, right?
At the October fest.
Yeah.
It's a mass.
It's a mass here.
Yeah.
So there you go.
Yeah.
By the way, not unusual, right?
So it's not too unusual to meet at October fest for business reasons and just make the customers
or prospects or partners, right?
I had this a few times already in the past.
And I never got the concept.
I have to admit, right?
Because it's very noisy.
It's hard to talk to each other.
It's indeed this kind of experience together.
And maybe this helps you to, to do better business later.
Right?
Because you have to do that.
Oh, it's obvious.
That's my leverage.
Mainly.
That's right.
But that's right.
But actually for, for, for, for meaningful conversations, it's, it's useless, right?
Because it's really noisy and whatever.
Yeah.
And then comes the part where you stand on the benches and you dance on the benches and
it all gets very bizarre.
Yeah.
An exception for me is actually the, the, the, um, the haps fest or in, in the wording.
So we're just like, uh, the listeners outside of Germany, maybe don't know, right?
But October fest, uh, even if the, if it's the biggest of its kind, right?
It's not the best one, right?
They're around the same time.
There are a lot of little events that are kind of similar in basically every single town in the
barrier, right?
And, um, and the smaller ones are actually better, right?
The October fest is more for, for tourists.
Uh, do they have, do they have a home that are a brass band that plays highway to hell?
Only if they have that, I'm coming.
Maybe.
And they also have, uh, tens and bands, the smaller ones, right?
And be your, uh, the cheaper than the, uh, the bigger, the bigger October fest.
And especially important, they are not that crowded, right?
Which means, um, it's, uh, it's a, it's a bit of a better experience.
I actually like the smaller ones, right?
I'm not a, not such an October fest guy, but the smaller ones like the, the adding a haps fest
is actually, this is quite nice, right?
If I would leave a very, um, tomorrow, I would miss this.
Let's get right.
Yeah.
I hear you.
Anyway, yeah, welcome to the podcast on German.
German country.
Yeah.
Wasn't this why you invited us, right?
Just for now.
The music.
Anyway, German.
Okay.
Come on.
Go ahead.
On a more serious note in the, um, in the whole podcasting scenario, what kind of technology
do you guys use?
Oh, um, so I, I'm, I'm, I have to admit, I'm using not open source software for this.
I'm using logic pro X by Apple, right?
For recording my stuff and also using this for the post production.
Okay.
We do different, differently than you guys.
So we basically have a kind of meeting, discord meeting and the same time we record via
another microphone, a better microphone.
Uh, yeah, um, via kind of audio recorder, which is a my case logic pro X, right?
Which is a digital audio workstation and I think Thomas is using audacity, which is open source.
Okay.
I actually had lately some issues on MAC, um, which is the reason why I change it, but uh, the main
reason why I'm using logic pro X is, uh, because it's having a lot of bid in functionality,
which helps you with the post processing.
Right.
Nice reduction noise rendering.
Uh, compression has some presets.
So especially if you don't know to well what you are doing during the post production steps,
and you're not 100% expert as I am not one right,
then the Azure Pro X is actually really helpful
by helping you to get a good result out of your audio tracks.
And besides of that, we are recording via microphone,
so condense on microphones.
I'm using an audio technical microphone for recording.
I think Thomas uses something else.
I have a, yeah, I didn't want to spend too long on the pounds.
So I have a sort of semi entry level microphone,
I think it's called Q9 or something,
and I paid 50 pounds for it.
And as David said, yeah, we record locally.
So each record, each one of us records its own track locally
and then we synchronize it with some synchronizing noises
that we do, yeah, I've recorded audacity
and then just send the MP3 to David and he does his magic.
Okay.
This is how we did it initially,
but then we discovered big brew button and now jibbery.
The juror is still out on this one,
but this is how we started, right Martin?
Definitely, so far so good, right Martin?
Apart from the setting up part,
but that's not going to happen.
Yeah, full disclosure, audio and linus can be a bitch.
And this is not something new.
Anyway, Leonard, if you're listening, get in touch, please.
Isn't there a managed shitty source on AWS?
I have to Google that now.
I do not know.
Well, I mean, if I listen to the grumpy old coldness,
which I do on a regular basis for disclosure,
you would take everything, right?
From Microsoft Technologies, right up to programming languages,
you had this massive two, three, four hour long
20 or 20 seconds.
Well, it's like seven.
Yeah, seven hour long, 20, 20 review, I don't know.
So you clearly don't have open source of the focus.
And of course, that's that's fully understood,
appreciate whatever.
Where do you see, I mean, first of all,
how did you come up with the subject area
and where do you see the grumpy old coldness going forward?
Wow, very good question.
And how do you pick your new topics?
There will just do a brainstorming,
so it comes with me.
And sometimes we have guests that are influencing it.
So let's say maybe a friend of ours has a topic
he wants to talk about, right?
And then if he's coming to us, we say,
okay, fine, bringing a topic, you're the expert.
We are the moderators and then we do minimal research
before we have the conversation with him
and kind of have a nice little conversation for an hour.
This is one format, so basically some expert guest speakers.
We did this with Michael, right?
And there's a new episode to come.
Actually, it should have already been released,
but I'm too late because I'm too busy.
But anyway, and besides of that, Thomas and me,
we are just sitting together and we think about some topics
we find interesting, right?
And whatever we find interesting,
we then talk about it during the podcast.
So there's no specific scheme.
There is just a list of topics we have
and there's list is from time to time extended, right?
Yeah, the good thing about our professionals
that we are constantly learning, right?
We're constantly doing new things.
So one of the things we said in a previous episode
is I think that we want to get more acquainted
with the whole concept of machine learning.
As both of us had this at university
back in the 90s and early 2000s,
but the computing power just wasn't there yet.
And now that we have the cloud
and we have a much better tool chain,
the whole thing becomes interesting again.
As you can see, and I mean, if you have a smart speaker
or a term, if you have an Alexa or whatever,
what the good thing is, you know, they've pissed me.
I think GPUs are more important.
But GPUs can be used for machine learning.
Which was your point.
Yeah, sorry, yeah.
But you can have GPUs in the cloud.
Yes, you can.
There you go, checkmate or anyway.
Yeah, so this is the thing where we're probably going
to do an episode.
I see us doing an episode this year,
the algorithms and the tools and TensorFlow and what
have you deep learning out all that stuff.
How the algorithms develop over time.
Yeah, so it's a constantly learning,
this profession and this is what makes it interesting.
Yeah, another topic on our list
is I believe Kotlin, right?
So I would like to talk a bit about Kotlin
because I like the program language.
And yeah, maybe one idea would be
to have a kind of walkthrough, right?
Just verbally through some of the concepts
and just discuss them from the point of view
and based on experience of, for instance, Thomas, right?
Yeah, with other languages like.net and so on.
So something like this.
And what surprised me during the first few episodes
that this was kind of really, yeah, Microsoft heavy.
You both seem to come at least Thomas seems to come
from Microsoft development background.
Yes, so I have done.
Yes, yes, sorry.
No, no, it's true, it's true.
So Microsoft has sort of paid my wages in a way for many years.
I've done C Sharp for 12 years.
And then I sort of moved into web development,
which was web forms if anyone knows who that is.
If you don't know what that is, you're good, you're lucky, right?
Because it's a language.
And then, yeah, I moved to Angular,
which is obviously not a Microsoft technology.
And that's where kind of my exodus began, right?
Once you are in the whole Angular universe,
you get to know TypeScript and now TypeScript is my favorite language.
So I want to use TypeScript on the back end.
So that's why I learned Node.
And right, and now I'm sort of full stack
on the whole JavaScript chisel.
And I'm not sort of connected to Microsoft anymore,
but I've still done 12 years of C Sharp.
So that's sort of where that is all coming from.
Obviously, as a C Sharp guy, Azure is the cloud you use, right?
But, you know, now I work for Amazon.
And I like Linux.
I have Linux.
I'm running Linux right now for many years.
So, yeah.
Where Microsoft is not the entire angel of open source anymore.
I mean, Gido joined Microsoft officially.
So that's a done deal.
And I mean, I heard of, I mean,
Microsoft came up with something called F Sharp,
if not completely mistaken.
Yes.
Of course, that's another functional rip-off,
like Rust is, I might add.
So it would be interesting.
I mean, there wasn't an interesting new mark
in this whole 2020 review episode regarding Rust
and given the fact that especially in Microsoft,
Rust has taken a significant upturn.
And the latest is actually that,
I don't know if you heard this.
There is a person dependence in a package called Caprography
that is replacing C with Rust.
Need to say that costs a little bit of a stir
in the community because now you have to,
in addition to a C compiler,
you have to have something called a Rust compiler
running on your platform.
If you want to compile what is known as a wheel in Python,
it's a special in packaging format.
The thing is that PyPy, which is the official package archive
for Python, does support binary wheels,
but not for all triplets,
as in for all architectures and all operating systems.
The trouble now, of course, is I run, for example,
at home, an Rmv5 TE with little Indian,
which is officially not supported by Rust's.
That would be a problem, indeed.
So what I'm looking at,
either I basically hack slash submitter PR
for the installation script,
or I simply forget about Caprography,
which is a major dependency in quite a few packages in Python.
Yeah, and how many?
I mean, is it really having that my impact?
I guess historically seen the stuff
which is C compiled as much bigger, right?
Apparently there are a few Docker images
for modules and radis that have this dependency
because they run on L-Pine,
and L-Pine has that as a base package included.
So the modules are not based on Rust, right?
Sorry, no, no.
The Docker images use L-Pine Linux as these ones.
And this L-Pine Linux has Caprography apparently
as a dependency for whenever reason, I don't know.
So I already see the first images,
as I see the first few pull requests coming in
to do something about this.
But the thing is that now you have an additional dependency
in your open source world,
which is not supported by every architecture.
Yeah, not sure if this happened already
a few times in the past, I guess not right.
So that something like this needed to be addressed
over time, let's say, right?
No, it's just interesting because this is,
this is something I would call evolution
because the better or the more improved version
of a software basically survives or makes the next step.
Now, I mean, if I understand this correctly
and this full disclosure, this happened about two days ago.
So it's brand new.
We're recording this on the mark.
What is it?
To a tenth of tenth of February.
So we're looking at the eighth or something.
But given the fact that Rust is becoming
a more important language over and over,
Microsoft has taken big investments on this.
It's making big investments on this.
There's also a Linux kernel create for Rust,
allowing primarily device drivers to be implemented in Rust.
Where the slaps for this closure has invested
at least in one module being re-implemented in Rust,
namely to raise JSON.
Where do the grumpy or cordless series going
in the light of functional alternatives
like F-sharp and so forth?
I'm not sure if I was strong-opinion about this
to be very honest, right?
The thing is, I mean, let's say Rust
is very popular among other languages
that are quite popular like Go-Lang and so on, right?
And some languages are there to survive, some die,
and it's just a trend, let's say, right?
And if you compare how many,
so meaning from my point of view,
the language made it at the end, right?
If it arrived in enterprises, you know, in a sense,
but so maybe just Java?
This is, yeah, Java made it in a sense.
I mean, maybe Java is now...
Yeah, I would not joke too much about it, because at the end...
I'm not joking, I'm sure.
Because at the end, if you look at the statistics
and there are different surveys, right?
And I would say Java is one of the more successful languages.
Indeed, there are stuff which is kind of
blocking it a bit from being more successful,
and maybe it's a bit dusted nowadays, right?
And that's it, there are other languages or attempts
to have new languages on the Java version machine, right?
Like, for instance, Kotlin, which is like a more modern version
of Java, let's say, right?
By stealing a lot of concepts from different languages.
Okay.
Or boring, boring is maybe a better term in this context.
And as you said, evolution, right?
And evolution also means that it kind of gets inspired
by other stuff and picks it up if it is,
or are seen as being successful, right?
By adopting in this sense, because the winner is the one
who is able to adapt, let's say, right?
And there is a lot of stuff happening, right?
Thomas mentioned JavaScript, for instance,
on this oversight, on the client side,
and obviously JavaScript was to be more on the client side.
Yeah, on the client side, but node, for instance,
being very, very popular, right?
I didn't, me personally, but this doesn't mean anything.
But I guess these statistics are kind of aligned
with this observation.
I didn't see, I didn't see node being used a lot
in, in, in really, real enterprise, great software, right?
So I mean, I mean, it's trendy, fine, right?
So it had people that are coming from the JavaScript
client side, or to basically become quickly full stack
developers, and they got a lot of traction and popularity.
And there is a good community, and it's in, I believe,
or, let's say, JavaScript, TypeScript,
or nice, TypeScript, especially in nice languages,
and so on, right?
But if this is going to survive,
it will also depend on how, how practically
it can be used over the time.
And I guess Rust has better chances there,
but if it really is a rife, I don't know,
or it's hard to say at the moment, I would say.
Yeah, technological Darwinism,
I would, with the thing about Microsoft switching things out,
I think the main switch that has happened from Microsoft
is solved the old way of looking at it.
We want to sell licenses, you know,
we want to sell software.
And I feel that they are completely going away from this,
or they have completely gone away from this a few years ago,
when the new CEO took over,
that they follow sort of a similar business model
like Amazon Web Services does,
where, in a way, all they care about
is selling cloud compute and selling cloud storage, right?
Because that scales, and also the profit margins,
or something like 25 percent, right?
So they make way more money, I can imagine,
with the Azure cloud, then they do with selling licenses,
or maybe if they aren't now, they will be.
So I'm amazed that they haven't open sourced Windows yet,
I can imagine the only reason why they haven't done it yet
is because there are some sort of thought party license
that they can disclose some stuff like that, right?
So this is why, so they don't care anymore
about this look in, this technology look in, right?
And if changing out Compilers for the compiler,
that they see the open source compiler,
where they see the future, then they just do it, you know,
if it helps them sell more compute and more storage,
then that's what they do.
Interesting perspective, yes.
But then apparently Microsoft, in contrast to what was 15, 20 years ago,
is giving a lot of things back, because the number of contributions,
for example, to the Linux kernel, in 2013, 2012 maybe,
has risen significantly, because, of course,
NACS may say that this was all to prepare Azure
for running Linux workloads, but at the end of the day,
just the fact alone that they're hired,
actually somebody called Gidu from Rasm,
who is the inventor of Python, by the way.
I think tells a lot, because that means,
and I think at least two core contributors
to something called Z-Python, which is a standard Python interpreter
on GitHub, by the way, are coming from Microsoft,
so Microsoft is running a significant chunk
of Python development.
I mean, the company has clearly changed since Borma left.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, the things like the Windows subsystem for Linux
that would have been unimaginable under Borma.
Yes.
Right, so you may not be familiar with this,
but it's sort of a built-in Linux in Windows
that you can fall back on to do whatever you need to do.
Your development, it's very good for developing node.
That's how I would have used it in the past, you know.
That's all the communication words, gang.
I mean, yeah, it used to be just a Ubuntu,
but now you can choose and pick a user land of choice,
running WSL.
Yeah, any distribution that's compatible.
So that's a very interesting thought,
because essentially you can use Windows.
All right, it's not particularly practical to be doing that.
You may as well just run a Linux machine instead.
Yes, but you can still use Windows as a glorified bootloader.
I mean, for some, you know, in some companies,
I've worked for McLaren, right?
And you get a corporate laptop, which has Windows on.
And that's the end of the story.
And for that, I was very happy to use the Windows
subsystem for Linux, because of the tight integration
to the IDEs I had running.
Of course, I could have run a virtual machine on it, you know,
but Windows subsystem for Linux, actually, at all.
There's a good argument against virtual machines
for some use cases, right?
So what I did, for instance, I used it a few times
on other machines I had to maintain within my family,
because that's a majority of the non-giggy persons out there
are using Windows, right?
And I'm actually not a PowerShell guy
if it comes to doing something like finding files
or writing a script, which serves a specific problem for them, right?
So what I did then is I just used the Linux subsystem
to do this or in the past circuit, right?
So basically the first thing I did
is I showed Ciguin in order to be able to use batch scripts.
So there it is, our good reason to use the subsystem,
I would say, scripting stuff in a more kind of unified way, right?
And speaking of family, what I found is a lot of them don't care.
So I told my wife, is it okay if I put Linux
on the living room laptop, right?
For instance, she said, as long as I can log in
and start the browser, I don't care.
You know, and I'm finding the same editing with my older son
because he lives in Google Docs and Google Meets
and all that stuff.
So he says, as long as I have Chrome, I'm good.
But that's the reason for the Chromebook numbers, right?
I mean, absolutely.
It's one of the popular, it's one of the most popular
laptops being sold, laptop families rather, sorry.
Because you just switched it on
and the rest happens in the cloud.
The only thing for the family that's holding back is gaming, right?
So gaming and Linux in the last years has come on
in leaps and bounds.
Steam.
Steam, yeah, so just the other day,
I tried to solve Steam and Linux stuff
and it walks amazingly well.
Yeah, I mean, not every game, which is a little bit too bad.
That's a lot of games are working quite well,
especially the ones that are based on OpenGL, right?
So if it comes to DirectX or there's,
there are possibilities, right?
Like, how is it called, right?
Is it proton, something like that?
I think it was named and where you can rename basic or,
I'm not sure anymore how it is called,
but where you can basically translate
or direct X calls into OpenGL call.
I think it's called Vulcan.
Let me Google that.
But I have one point about, let's say,
our just exchanging the desktop or with the Linux desktop
works fine for my wife as well, right?
Everyone who is maybe around our age and younger
is getting quickly used to it, right?
But my experience is, it doesn't work with older persons, right?
So older persons like our parents.
So because they kind of, they are,
they are using the computer a little bit strange,
but they are using it by doing simple pattern matching.
They are not actually doing what they are doing.
Let's say.
I'm almost tempted to say, I'm an older person.
I've been using little from last 30 plus years.
Yeah, fine.
New tech guy.
True, yes, I think, okay.
If I give for my mother-in-law is a tea,
also one of my mothers-in-law is a teacher, right?
And she's really, she really get out of school,
let's say, right, to get pensioned.
But she uses windows at work
and she uses windows at home.
And if the button is just, let's say,
it bit a little bit different,
or there is a slightly different dialog, right?
Then she's calling me in the sasghi,
what is this, right?
Is this dangerous or whatever, right?
And I have the same situation with my other mother-in-law,
with the patchworkie, right?
But anyway, and she's doing exactly the same.
So meaning it seems that the older, older persons
that are not having any tech background.
So, let's say, maybe 60 plus, right?
They sometimes struggle to exactly understand
what they are doing with the computer.
They just have specific tasks
and they know how to do it.
And they follow exactly the same procedure.
And if you would give them another UI,
this would completely freak them out, right?
Let's say, yeah, that's the thing.
But that's solvable, you know,
if you give them a Linux and then sit down for two hours
and say, you know, click on this for email.
Click on that for the internet.
Yeah, sure.
You can invest them at this return.
Yeah, that's what I did for my neighbor,
who used Windows, I don't know, Windows XP.
And he wanted a new laptop.
And of course, Windows XP, nope.
So I had to train him on Windows 8, you know.
So that was fun.
You know, what's all this rectangular stuff, yeah.
But yeah, he got it in the end.
If you sit down for the hour and train him,
then you're good.
Hopefully, or he just doesn't tell you, right?
But it could be, it could be, it's all right.
And just wraps it up again.
Does it into the share of what you've been talking about for a second?
Most PCs are still sold with Linux these days,
unless it's obviously MAC,
but still the most popular shift operating system, I'm sure.
So it will be a while before that changes.
Yeah.
Yeah, if you want to buy a laptop with Linux on it,
your options are very limited.
I think Dell does it.
And then some other obscure vendors that you haven't heard of.
And that's quite a few boutique shops that sell.
Yeah, I know.
And I didn't slap tops like the system 76.
Yeah, that's awesome.
There's even a drum.
Tixedo, yes, Tixedo, of course, in Germany.
So yes, you can, you can get them.
And of course, Dell does too.
But you wonder how good all day is the support on it.
So, you know, there is that.
True, as long as you're not trying to use the audio,
you'll be fine.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's not a big deal, but we're really,
well, I say that maybe, the grumpy awkwardness going.
Apart from giving us back the borrowed items, that is, of course,
I mean, what do you mean by that?
I mean, it's not the case that we have a, do you guys have a big
question for you?
Yes we do.
It's actually another on our website.
We call it World Domination.
Congratulations.
Yeah.
Good luck with that.
We'll celebrate it's another sponsor.
You will come at odds at some point.
We have come at odds at some point.
Yeah, I've come at odds at some point.
We have come at odds at some point.
Our goal is to avoid living in laws, but we don't know.
Right, that was my last corporation then.
Right, that was my last corporation then.
It's like we have the opposition.
It's like we have the opposition.
And which is a contradiction, of course, in terms
because both Thomas, as when his David,
come from the, what is known as the GDR?
It was always known as that.
Sorry.
And for younger listeners, that would be the eastern part
of Germany, which became part of the western part
at something called the reunification
about what, 30 years ago or something.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And why the goal, that's it, right?
Or a goal, yes.
That's the old part of Grumpy Old Corridor.
Yes, and of course, one final question,
actually, why is Adam Saxolian or of the question?
As a dialect.
I mean, you know why you don't, you don't, well, no, why?
I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
For disclosures, they come from the East
but they apparently try to avoid it.
These Grumpy Old Corridors.
They are let's say this way, right?
I mean, I'm from Therinjia and I'm more from,
let's say, south or the southern area of Therinjia
and the southern area of Therinjia is more,
regarding the dialect, a little bit more frankonian, right?
Instead of Saxonian.
And Thomas, I believe you're more coming from the,
from something close to Saxonia, right?
You're from Northern Saxonia, right?
So if I'm completely mistaken, you're talking to me or today?
Yes, no, I'm talking to you, Thomas.
All right, no, I come from Therinjia,
the very east part of it, where it's sort of
almost a Saxonian border, but not quite.
So I'm technically Therinjian, although if I really put my heart
to it, I can have an appalling accent.
So there is that.
But me, for instance, it's hard for me to talk about.
So this is the Saxonian accent that you mentioned.
I have been accused of being Saxonian
for a good part of my life.
And to be honest, to be honest with you, Christophe,
I find it hard for a few disclosure people.
A quarter of myself is actually
from a little village near Bitterfeld,
which is Northern Saxonia.
So I stand by my origin, some people don't,
as we just heard.
That's okay.
Oh, God, I realize I've just been racist to you.
I apologize.
I didn't want to imply that being Saxonian is a bad thing.
No, if that is coming from Christophe, it's not.
It's clear it's not.
Because it's not.
No, it's not.
No, my maternal grandfather is actually
from a place called Delic.
Yeah, they make, what do they make in Delic?
Crackles, right?
Biscuits.
There's something about Delic.
Yeah, Delic is actually the birthplace
of something called the Riveisen movement
as in corporate banking.
Interesting.
No, that.
There you go.
I'm proud to be caught from Saxonian.
Yes, we should.
Yeah, that's fine.
But you know, at the end, right, you can have,
you can have ashoes in the very end.
So soon, as we have really discussed in the show,
that's all fine, right?
We are all German to some extent,
or not, anyway, showing us.
Thanks for it doesn't matter too much, right?
I mean, as you might know, Christophe,
at least I have the feeling, right?
Talking about it, I have the feeling
that it's actually for me as a German heart
to have a German identity, or maybe this isn't just me
and given the fact that we see some race of right,
being people in Germany as well,
politically seen, doesn't seem to be the case for everyone,
right?
But let's say it's a bit, I am not sure, right?
And I was so myself as, yeah, you are this German person,
or whatever, indeed, there is some cultural context,
but I'm feeling the same time quite at home
when I'm sitting in London and a pub, right?
I don't have the feeling that there is a kind of cultural
break for me, right?
Yeah, we are basically not even part of Europe anymore.
Yeah, but anyway, for me, or even in the US, right,
or then it's not totally different, let's say, indeed,
there is stuff which is totally different,
but it's not the case that I'm always thinking about myself
as being totally German and having a specific,
they use totally associated with it,
but it's maybe just me, right?
No, it's not just you, I feel the same,
and I think it is because the state that we grew up
and doesn't exist anymore.
So in many ways, we are no meds of history,
we don't really have a state that we deeply belong to,
if you know what I mean.
Yeah, in your Russian for both of you.
I had, you must have learned it at school, right?
Oh, good, yeah.
So I started Russian at year five,
and I had to end it at year 12, so seven years of Russian.
Seven years of Russian.
Really?
I never learned Russian, I had Latin,
I had English, Latin and fringes.
I didn't notice what options.
Actually, no, the problem is I was too young, right?
I'm younger than you Thomas,
and for me, basically, I never got into this Russian language
stuff at school, because I'm younger, right?
That's the question.
Yeah, the generation before you was mandatory, you know?
Yeah, yeah, sure.
It was mandatory for me.
Oh, yeah, big time.
I thought David was over in 40.
No, I'm exactly 40, let's see.
Ah, ah, I know we're getting to work.
This is the first day, congratulations.
No, maybe not, I mean, I'm older than 40,
but I'm basically 40 years older if you ask me,
I can't tell you which date is exactly right,
40 years at whatever amount of days, right?
I'm four less than 40 ones, less than that.
Yes, I'm six, 26, exactly.
Anyway, it's not yours.
Okay, you had Russian at school, right?
In the Netherlands.
No, we weren't part of the empire.
And then I know, I know, I know.
I know the empire.
That was the magnitude of course.
That wasn't mandatory.
You know, Martin apparently, I mean, Martin's Russian
is quite existent, I think.
Who is it?
Yes, come on Martin.
Come on.
Give it a go Martin.
Jesus, many, many years ago.
No, because we did, we did recently
actually in the episode, as you may or may not know,
on the, on the first year of the five year plan.
And of course, the little bit of fun was actually there.
We do the intro in Russian.
Oh, right.
I have to listen to that.
I do, yes.
I think I must have missed the motto now.
Okay.
Just a little one, yes.
Okay, time to wrap this up guys.
Question, question, why, right?
Well, Russian, Russian, Russian used to be known
for their five year plans.
Simple.
Okay.
Yeah, we had five year plans in these Germany as well.
If I remember, there you go.
Yeah.
Did you look all that way, right?
Did you look all that way, right?
Oh, well, well, they're always taking,
they're always taking time, right?
So let's see how it goes.
Yeah.
Guys, time to wrap this up.
Any, any passing, any, any final remarks
from the company, all quarters.
I mean, are we nearly done?
Norb is so, why am I not sure?
Is it just half an hour or?
No, no, basically, no, this, this will not be edited much.
So we're talking about almost an hour.
Yeah, as I said, we do know due to our episodes.
So we try to keep it through an hour.
Yeah, it's in an hour.
Time was actually flying.
Yes, it is.
So it's quite fun.
Yeah, same here.
So we're looking forward to the,
what's, what's, what's, what's, what's I'm looking for?
You should invite Patrata too,
to be looking forward to being over to your podcast.
Yeah, so.
But soon and then, as soon as I find time,
I will also publish it.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, those are from our, from our side.
I don't know right what to say um hope we liked uh listening to us for right I hope it was a bit
was a bit of fun I thank you very much for the invite or Martin and Kristoff or anytime
we liked it and uh yeah so are stick with the Linux and laws and maybe also explore the
truck you will be on the soundcloud and other fine proprietary platforms yeah exactly I mean
yeah if they mentioned this right we're not on this or heck our public radio
but uh yeah we are basically on the soundcloud and uh are Spotify and Apple podcasts
right Apple thing as well pick your party platform and chat so I'm glad that's all it maybe I
mean actually my sentence about this uh I'm not sure if you guys are are you only publishing it
while at this or heck our public radio are okay then in order to reach more people it's not the
better idea to to use more more platforms right and uh it's a Spotify and Apple they are giving
to you for free in a sense right because they they kind of want to enrich the amount of
podcasts they are they are offering uh which means the the only thing you need is an RSS feed
right and then they are able to pick it up and uh you can stream it from there right this
the reason why you why you will find us on google podcasts yes you see right that's exactly
because the RSS feed is reflecting the HPR stuff yes yeah um and you could
provide this RSS feed also to Spotify right for instance I have Spotify on my mobile phone and maybe
everyone has right and I don't know I don't know a single person who has uh is there
I use Applecast I think thank you very much
you know your list of statistics so well there's at least two confirm listings right sorry one and a
half because Martin doesn't listen to all the episodes I think so that's at least me
if not more I don't actually know the number of listings right I'm not sure maybe
it's not totally it's not thousands of listeners or whatever right but we we have a bunch of
plays that's not too bad I would say for what we are doing right um I'm I kind of find it okay
right it's less than a million less than a million and uh how much listeners are you having is
actually this hacker or poppy radio allowing you to track the number of listings we we got about
quadruple numbers but I don't think the stats are okay so I reckon it clocks in at a couple of
hundred listeners uh but I might be off yeah yeah maybe a bit more than we have I don't know right
I do think the last time when I check we had 200 listens okay okay so across all the so episodes
that's good to know that my bot actually works yeah very good
excellent with this the next time the next time if you ride a butt ride it could be
more aggressive let's say yeah we know quests are big except the David
okay guys it wasn't going to be over and with that um and remark we would like to thank you for
being here and looking forward to having you over at some stage back again this is the Linux
you come for the knowledge but stay for the madness thank you for listening this podcast
is licensed under the latest version of the creative comments license type attribution
share like credits for the intro music go to blue zero stirs for the song solid market
to twin flames for their piece called the flow used for the second intros and finally to
select your ground for the songs we just use by the dark side you find these and other
didd's license under cc achamando a website dedicated to liberate the music industry from
choking copyright legislation and other crap concepts
so
I clearly heard the echo now, anyway, doesn't matter, it's okay, we are wonderful recording
a song, but by the way, by the way, by the way, Java is just a language right, you can
actually compile Java to a native binary. Absolutely, David, absolutely. Okay, this is Lillars in
law, season one, episode 24, I think no, what is it? Depart doesn't matter, anyway, we're going to cut
this out anyway, and rolling. And maybe, and maybe the next time when you're wasting us, Martin is
able to talk or to do something. He's a little bit shy, but that's okay, I think there's a
little idea for podcasts. Yeah, maybe it's so much. Okay, cool.
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