hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr4565.txt

Episode: 4565
Title: HPR Beer Garden 9 - Barley Wine
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr4565/hpr4565.mp3
Transcribed: 2026-07-31 16:14:02 (official HPR transcript)

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 4565, for 2026-01-30
Today's show is entitled, "HPR Beer Garden 9 - Barley Wine"
The host is Kevie and the duration is 00:27:21
The flag is Clean, and the license is CC-BY-SA
The summary is "Dave and Kevie talk about Barley Wines."
Hello and welcome to another exciting episode of Hacker Public Radio, and this is the HPR
Beer Garden episode 9, my name is David, I'm joined by Kevin, Kevin, how are you?
I am very well and I am also excited because I am got a very special Beer tonight, this
is a one-off, I will not be getting this again, I don't, so I'm very excited, I've
been saving it for this episode.
I'm keen to understand why, but I'm sure you will tell us, well why it's so exciting
and why you'd never have it again, but I'm sure you'll tell us later on, I'll be revealed.
On this episode of The Beer Garden, we are going to be exploring Bali Wine, which is
a style of beer that I was only recently introduced to.
But before we go and crack open these, well this one I've never had before, not what I've
never seen before, probably going to that, I'll just give you a little, little potted history
of Bali Wine from my not unreasonable amount of research, thank you Wikipedia.
So Bali Wine dates back to the mid-19th century when Bass or Bass Rat Cliff and Gretton, as
they were called at the time, based in Burton on Trent, here in the UK, they began
a production of a single brew Bali Wine that they simply called number one, that was
the name of it, Bass number one.
And the label was adorned with a single red diamond, and this single red diamond was actually
Britain's second registered trademark ever, which I didn't know and I find that quite interesting.
The first one was Bass's red triangle that you can still see on Bass beers even today.
Number one, as it is still known, was brewed almost continuously from 1854 through to 1995
when it was discontinued.
There was a 10 year break between 1944 and 1954, but even though it is no longer being
made, it still is the gold standard of Bali wines, which other Bali wines are measured
against, which is really intriguing because up until the time I started to put this together,
they've even heard of Bass number one.
But Bass number one was not distinctive only for the method of production, but also because
it was so pale.
The reason it was so pale is because of the maltz that it was using.
Prior to this, Bali wines had mainly been like a dark amber to dark browning colour,
which were made with much cheaper and darker maltz.
But this pale Bali wine was quite novel at its time, but then after Bass started producing
their pale Bali wine, there were some other brewers that followed suit as well with pale
versions full of gold and pride, and also tenants gold label.
By the way, that's not tenants of Glasgow, that's tenants of Sheffield, so it's completely
different brewery, just seems to have the same name.
And as it happens, Kevin had mentioned gold label to me before, and I did manage to
bag an amazing deal on Amazon for 95, I think it was for four cans, but they arrived
tomorrow, which is really sad because I could have reviewed them tonight, had they arrived
sooner.
So, little bit disappointed, but I'm sure I'll enjoy them when they arrive.
But believe it or not, it wasn't until 1976 that the style was introduced to the United States,
with the anchor brewing company producing its old foc horn, Bali wine, or it says
it, Bali wine, style, ale.
Old foc horn was styled as Bali wine with what Bali wine one word rather than two, out
of fear that the mention of the word wine on a label would annoy the regulators, because
wines and beers obviously treat it separately.
Then in 1983, was that 70 years later, the Sierra Nevada brewery released a big foot
to Bali wine, becoming only the second Bali wine label in the United States.
With in Britain, it goes back to the 19th century, but in the US, well, it's less than
50 years old, it's really interesting.
Bali wine typically has an ABV of between six to 12%.
The use of the word wine is actually due to its strength, a good proportion of Bali wines
actually have a similar ABV to that of wine, but because it's made from grain rather than
from fruit, it is characterized as a beer.
This distinction blew me away.
My first encounter with the Bali wine was actually only three years ago at a beer festival
in Sheffield, and I had its life gym marked to from the Little Earth project.
And this one was 15.2% ABV, and it was divine, it was so, so nice.
So nice, in fact, I did actually give it a 5.0 on untapped, and I also managed to persuade
a friend of mine to buy me a bottle of it when they made an order with a retailer that
actually sold it.
So, yes, I did enjoy that.
From a brewing perspective, Bali wine is actually quite a difficult beer to produce, and
also very expensive, great amounts of materials, vigilance, and time, their time is said
to be the fifth vital element of Bali wine, malt, hops, water, yeast, and time.
But like it's early cousins of old and strong ails, Bali wine is intended to be stored
with the development of its flavours, sometimes requiring a year or so to mellow.
The alcoholic strength of a Bali wine also prescribes its sale in small glasses, and also
small, it's just how it's just a six ounce bottles, and I presume that's going to be six
US ounces, so that's probably going to be around 200 mil, I would say, but it could be called
a nip bottles.
And nip is a shot, isn't it?
Is that nice?
Yes, nip is called under certain me, I had a drum, you know, we, yeah, 30, 35, 25 if you're
old, right, the old school pubs were forced to actually change them under recent laws,
clubs can still sell quarter-gills, or 35, that's right, but not the bargees.
The sixth, the sixth, the sixth, yeah, yeah, noise, so there are, according to my research,
two primary styles of Bali wine, there's the American style, which tends to be hopier
and therefore a lot more bitter, but the colours tend to range from amber to lighter brown,
and then there's the English style, which tends to be a lot less bitter, and therefore
a lot less hopier, but with a lot more variety in colour, ranging from a ready goldie colour
through to black, it's not just between the British and American styles, but also if you look
at the North American continent, there's quite a wide variety of variations of style from
one side of the continent to the other.
So for example, the barley wines of the west coast of the US are substantially hopier than
the ones you find on the east coast, where British examples of barley wine are noted for
alcoholic and sherry and fortified wine style flavours, a pure bread north westeastern version
is very hoppy, very bitter, and full of aroma. The north-eastern Americans, which it suggests
has a stronger size to the UK brewing traditions and tastes of barley wine, generally produces
a barley wine in a kind of mid-Atlantic style, tending to be more sweet and strong, but with the
additional flavours that you would only get by storing and laying down a bottle for a long period
of time. Now I've got here a couple of quotes from her who I believe are established
beer commentators, as one called Michael Jackson, I don't think it's the singer. He referred to a
barley wine produced by smithics, which was actually brewed in Ireland until 2001 when Guinness,
who owned smithics at the time, decides to kill off that particular brew. He said, it's very distinctive
with an earthy hoppiness, a whiningness, lots of fruit and toffee flavours. I mean, I want some of
that, but I can't, I'm now 25 years too late. But then Martin Cornell, who again, I probably should
find out who he was, is then quoted as saying, there is no historically meaningful difference existing
between barley wines and old ales. He then later clarified, I don't believe there is actually
any such meaningful style as barley wine. I mean, that's rude. Yeah, Martin Cornell was a very
much a purist. Well, I'll maybe give a wee bit more background there. Sorry, I hope I'm not stepping
it over here. But no, no, no, there is reason, the actual original reason you said about old
old and strong ales. The original reason apparently according to Roger Prott's and Martin
Cornell, they both said that barley wine was just purely an invention, a name invention of bass
for the strong old ales. And it was done purely because people were starting to get interested
in French wines. And this was a way to keep them on the beer of Britten, rather than
sampling stuff from across the channel. So it was all they did was the aged the old wine, old
beers, even older. So Martin was very much a, it's not a style, it's a name that bass gave it.
But right, that's apparently the first time although bass had been producing number one since the
1850s, bass didn't actually call it barley wine until 1872. Right, that's the first ever time
is recorded as using the term barley wine. That's interesting. Okay. I'm not so much of a beer
reader at the moment. That will change. I'm sure, particularly as we said, we're going to do
some book reviews as part of this as well. For me, the whole concept of barley wine, you could
probably say that it's just a standard beer that happens to have a higher EBV. I would imagine
I will get a smack around the head for saying stupid things like that, so I'm not going to.
But I'll be honest, having had at least one barley wine consciously, the time will wear of.
I am really, really interested to know what this one that I've got in front of me is going to taste
because the ABV on this one is about half of the one that I mentioned earlier on.
But it's not all about the strength in the alcohol. It's more about how it's made and the
compounds that make it up. What I'll do is I'll end with something else that my research gave me,
which is there is an alternative to barley wine called wheat wine. So it's still made in the same way,
but then a large amount of wheat is added to the mash, creating what is referred to as wheat wine.
And that style actually originated in the United States in the 1980s. So by the same token of the
definition that I gave you a few moments ago that I'm now dissociating myself with, it's basically
it's a strong vise beer. I was going to say that wheat wine is actually German in its origins,
but it was made in the US. There's also a rye wine which I've never been able to get a hold on.
I know what exists, but I have that mess and never, ever been able to get a hold on.
Right. All right. So what did you tell us about your beer then, Kevin?
Oh, well, those of you have listened to this for a while now, we'll know that I am a beer reader.
Unlike my good friend, he had who, but we'll convert him yet. One of the guys who I really
respect as an author is Roger Protz. And I do like the children brewery.
Okay. Yeah. Some familiar with them. They do bodges barley wine. That is a standard barley wine
I've had it before. I like it. But in honor of Roger Protz, they have produced a limited run
of Roger Bodges barley wine. And that's him on the front. Excellent. So this is why I probably will
not be getting this again, because this is probably going to be very limited. I would to be honest,
I was delighted to actually get a bottle of it. So after I drink this, I am not throwing his bottle
away. It's going up there and try to place on the shelf. So this is a Roger Bodges barley wine.
So I'm really looking forward to this. So again, learn my lesson. I'm taking a step back.
Yes. We bit of spray there, but it wasn't it didn't fool me up, thankfully. Right. Oh, okay.
That's good. Oh, no. Quite a light barley wine this one. This must be a totally different
race because that other one is dark. So this must be purely a race before him. So this is that actually
looks a bit darker on the screen there, but it's more an amber light amber. That's a nice colour.
So that is quite a lively head. So I've stopped pouring. It's 8.4% actually not an awful lot of
scent coming from the glass. There is a mild barley note. There's a faint sweetness of kind of
toffee and then there's a grape scent. It's not citrus, but it's like a kind of green grapes.
I can do scent. Hmm. So just noticing, actually, I didn't notice that the first pour, it's not clear.
It does have quite a hazelnut. Cheers. Cheers. Hmm. That's nice. That's far too refreshing. That's
far too drinkable. That's got quite a hobby front end. Hopy front end. Develops into
toffee, not burnt toffee. It's not like a scorch shell. It's like a sweetness of toffee and then
there's something lingering. There's a fruit in it and I'm not quite deciphering what it is.
I'll maybe need to come back to this in a second. After you've probably said it,
I'll probably write, shout it around and fruit. But something better, but it's not citrusy
bitter. Maybe something like passion fruit. It's a passion fruit you know it on the end of that.
It's not a sweet fruit. Hmm. It's not citrus. I think, yeah, so I'm going to put down. So
it's good. Like I said, it's an initial hobbyness. If you were to actually take on the first sip,
you would probably think, you've got an old-fashioned IPA there. Not a session one, not a kind of
I think, but like a dad. Click a whole pool kind of IPA. That can away. Yep. Then it goes to that kind of
kind of toffeeish, sweet toffiness. And then it goes right back to that kind of passion fruit in
it. Oh yeah, that's something that I'm glad it's winter. Because I think if somebody handed me
a bottle of art, without looking at the label in the summer, I could quite easily chuck that down.
Because it's very, very refreshing. That's not a good thing. Well, it is, but it isn't.
Yeah, exactly. Not an 8.4. You don't want it to. You don't want it to be just refreshing as
a lag or something. No, no, probably not. No. So there you go. So I'll sound nicer. It is.
And I'll come back to the score at the end. No matter, I shall let you get to Euro snow.
How could you docus? So I teased this with Kevin before we started recording and he's probably
not got a clue what it is I've got here. I bought this from Biz of Europe before we started
doing the Christmas ails one. So it was probably either very late November or very early December.
And it was the only barley wine they had in stock. Now, bearing in mind for the time of year in which
I bought this, it will not come as too much of a surprise. This is actually a Christmas barley wine
from Richway Brewery in Oxfordshire. I think I know which one this is. You probably do.
I'm not want to to one up somebody. So I'm going to 0.1 up somebody instead. This is 8.5%
ABV. And it is called criminally bad elf. Noticing notes on the bottle at all. But actually,
it is incredibly clear that almost look at what you've been seeing through it. Almost like a
logger in terms of transparency. But let me pop the core on this and we'll see what we've got.
That's very sweet. I'll be very honest. I don't know what I'm smelling for.
But again, this is very, very sweet. There's actually a similarity here to some
loggers. And I don't mean that any disparaging whey either because there are some
loggers that as you smell a lot nice and they taste. I can't discern anything specific
from this at all. So I'm going to pour it and see if I get something else once it's poured into
the glass. And I'm getting the whole bottle as well. Oh, that is a beautiful color. It's almost
kind of an orangey pink. So again, we've both gone for a lighter and barley wines. I mean,
as you said, barley wines can be practically black like a stout or they can be really
kind of the light amber. No, I'm really not getting anything out of this. So what what would
the sweet but the sweet is becoming from the barley? See it depends. I mean, there'll be relatively
high sugars and as well. Doris, the stuff has become high sugard. Just to get the the alcohol
part. So that could be part of it. If British ones would rarely infuse them with fruit. It's
just more a fruity taste to get off it. You can actually something maybe we didn't mention. I've
noticed that if you go to like our Eastern Eastern Europe place, I think Estonia as a place where
I've had the most they tend to have barley wines that are quite fruity but the fruits added. It's
made from fruit. The fruit is added and you get like a plum barley wine or a peach barley wine.
It's a the polliala brewery there from Estonia and I'm sure I've also had one from
a round kind of Ukraine, Georgia that kind of way. I've had one from them and the person it was quite
strong fruity as well. But they were definitely darker barley wines. Right. Right. Okay.
Well, let's give this us wagons to see what we've got. That is incredibly bitter. Oh, what was
that? Oh, that's that's really odd. So it is very bitter. Possibly more bitter than I would like.
But weirdly, once the bitterness passes, it leaves behind quite a sweet post taste but all I've
got now that that's gone. It is just the the immense bitterness. Now I can't measure bit bitterness
to a scale that would fit anybody else because everybody's taste works differently. But I am
very much aware of actually got two more bottles of this to go through and I'm not too sure about it.
I'll be honest. Oh, well, I've got one in the cupboard which I haven't had yet and yet despite all
of that, I really do like this. Oh, that's good. There's not a lot going on in it. It doesn't seem
to have much character. Yes, yes, there is a sweetness but I can't articulate where that sweetness
comes from. There's a bitterness that seems like it's more than just the hops that's providing
it. So I don't know whether there's some other essence or or something that's making the bitterness
appear more harsh than it actually should be. But there is zero fruitiness in this at all. There's
no fruity flavours for a tea or fruitier roamers. It doesn't really smell anything much now. Oh,
that's a bit of a shame. Now one thing that's I've always found in Barney wines is
because it's a slow, long developing one. They're different in the stout and that you never get
anything like coffee or toastiness. You know, like I said, there was toffee in it but it wasn't
burnt toffee. It wasn't like a burnt toasted caramel. And that's one thing they will generally
despite their age, despite their strength. Be a bit more mellow compared to the likes of an imperial
state, you know, which is compatible, you know, in ABV. So you tend to find that a lot of them are quite
mellow. Going back to bass again, bass number one. Apparently the original one two three four five
it was purely based on number one was the strongest number five was the least strong. It wasn't
actually chronological order, but they released it. And there was one thing actually made to
say just to correct you slightly. It's not that I'm correcting you, you know. But there's a weak caveat.
Sure, weak caveat. We asked for a skier. They still producing it in 95 caveat. You can actually
still get it. If you go and do the bass brewery tour, they still have that as what you go
around. They are doing bass number one, barley wine. And you can get it on the tour. You can get
a pint of it. And that's the only place you can get it. They don't export it outside of the brewery.
Right. And I'm assuming here this is one they've made recently, not 25 plus years out. No, no,
this is one that they do brew it. Apparently they brew it. I can't confirm this. I've just read it.
But apparently they brew it in like the old fashioned style of brewing. So it's much
smaller. So that's the reason they only produce smaller amounts. So you're going around and you're
actually seeing the old fashioned brewing happening, brewing happening. And then at the end, you can
buy a pint of it if you want. But again, I'm just not not sure how to interpret this one. It's
not disgusting. But it's also not one that I would necessarily push people out of the way to get to
the front of the queue to buy it. Let me read you what it says on the front of the bottle.
Where it says 8.5% alcohol by volume it then says barley wine style L. Oh, okay. That was maybe
that's that meaning of the thing. Well, it's not a barley wine. It's a barley wine style. So I'll tell
you what that probably means is that it's not been aged. That's probably explains why you could
the bitterness or it's not been aged as long as a barley wine would be. All right. So
go back to your beer then. How would you score? Where would I put this? It's very good. I would
like the nose to be a bit more pronounced. The nose is very, very much kind of mooted. The flavors.
I mean, for me personally, I would like a barley wine a bit sweeter. But that does I'm not going
to knock that down. It's not that style of barley wine. As one thing you probably noticed when Dave
was talking about, but we didn't talk about the profile very much because barley wines don't
actually have an official profile. They just have to be aged for over a year. That's actually the
definition of the barley wine. So I'm going to score this and 8.5. 8.5 for the team. Okay.
I'm liking that. Like 8.5. That's good. So as far as minus concerned, I have a
quantity. I've learned over the years. I'm actually your partially to take the credit for this
penny. It's not just about whether you like the flavour a bit because there are some beers that
don't taste particularly nice. You still enjoy them. A lot of the the alcoholic drinks that I consume.
You couldn't say, oh, I like that. It tastes amazing because most whiskeys, you're like,
doesn't taste amazing. However, what I do enjoy is the experience and what it's telling me.
I have to rate this based on that because this doesn't taste very subtle. So I'm basing it on the
experience. So when you're rating something, if it makes you go, ooh, then that's above the average.
And I think for me, this has made me go, ooh, because I've stopped and I've thought and I've
considered what I'm actually getting from this beer. The fact that it's really bitter, I'm not
going to market down because that maybe what it was intended. It doesn't tell you, unfortunately,
it doesn't help. But I think that maybe what it was intended to be. So I'm going to start at 7
and a half, but I'm going to knock it down to 7 purely on the basis that it doesn't taste of much.
But the experience of it, the fact that it's bitter, the fact that it's made me react to the
bitterness. I'm taking that as a positive. Does that make sense? Yes, I think so. So I'm going to,
I'm going to say 7 out of 10 for this. Well, so there we have it then. That's our
barley wine or in my case, barley wine style. Star review. No, before we go, Ken actually said to
me on the last community news that he would like us to announce the next style that we're doing,
so that people who don't want to listen and actually enjoy it with us can. And I thought,
okay, I never actually thought of that, but that's probably not a bad show. That's a great idea.
Can you remember what it is? Yes, it is. The Scotchale or we have it depending on what you want to
call it. It's they're both interchangeable names. It's the same drink. So Scotchale or we have it.
Notice I said Scotch, not Scottish. Yes, it is Scottish, but specifically Scotchale and we
heavy mean the same thing. So yeah, so that's what we've been looking at in the next few weeks.
Thank you very much indeed for listening. If you've got any comments, please leave them on the page
on Hackerpubby Radio for this episode. And of course, please feel free to record your own review
of a beer style as part of the Hackerpubby Radio beer garden. This is not just us. It is a,
I don't project for anybody within the community to contribute to. Absolutely. And the other
thing that we haven't had now, we while as a recommendation. So we've got the next few shows set up,
but please do give us your recommendations for beer styles that you would like us to look at.
Indeed. So then, join us tomorrow for another exciting episode of Hackerpubby Radio.
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