hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr2732.txt

Episode: 2732
Title: HPR2732: Storytelling formula compliance
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr2732/hpr2732.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-19 15:54:02

---

This is HBR episode 2007-132 entitled, Storytelling Formula Compliance, and in part of the series,
Information Underground, it is hosted by Klaatu and in about 28 minutes long, and Karim
and exquisite flag.
The summary is, telling a story, one to reaction, use the formula.
This episode of HBR is brought to you by archive.org.
Arch-Universal Access to All Knowledge by heading over to archive.org forward-slash-donate.
Hi everyone, this is Klaatu, you're listening to Hacker Public Radio.
Lost in Bronx is doing a series right now on storytelling and writing and that sort
of thing.
And it's a great series, I've really been enjoying it, and it kind of made me think of
some things about storytelling that I used to talk about a lot back in my old, old job,
where I was at least part of the time teaching people how to make films, that was part of
my, that was, I was a film instructor, really.
And so one of the topics that we had to cover, or that I chose to cover, was what makes
a good story, and generally speaking, in a really small amount of time.
And that's a really tough thing to sort of get to the bottom of, because obviously everyone
has their own interpretation of what a good story is, and everyone has their own interpretation
of what a short film versus a, you know, a normal length film is, a 90 minute film that
you would go see at a theater.
Because film students often have to make these two minute, three minute, five minute films.
And even if you, even if you accept that, okay, this is just a little snippet of a movie,
you want it to be a movie in itself.
You want it to be a self-contained story, kind of like a good joke, right?
I mean, there are long jokes, there are very short jokes, but they all have a very definite
opening, and what we call a punchline, a part where people sit up and notice that the
thing has ended.
That's really important, I think, for, if what you want to get from a story that you're
telling is an impact, or a reaction, if you want people to have, to have enjoyed something
and to know that they have enjoyed it, then you kind of need to signal people, where
we're kind of dumb sometimes, the audiences.
And we need really clear and loud signals that, hey, the story has started, hey, there's
a conflict now, okay, the story's over now, everything's wrapped up, you just got to
tell people that.
So there are, there's certainly a school of storytelling out there that does not involve
any of that.
And that is perfectly happy to meander through a story and then to kind of trail off until
everyone leaves, and that's the end.
And then maybe if you're a fan of that sort of thing, then maybe you, you ponder that
for days and days on end.
Frankly, personally, I'm a fan of that, that's kind of my thing, I'm much more interested
in stories that are less bombastic in their structure.
That said, structure is comforting, people really, really like structure, especially when
they don't know what they're getting into otherwise.
For instance, if you establish something early, for instance, the Marvel universe, right?
Everyone pretty much knows when they're going to a Marvel movie that they're going to
see some Marvel superheroes doing super fantastic things.
And so if one of the movies is about the whole world about to end and the heroes have to
fight the big bad guy, then everyone's okay with that.
Because you've built up this reputation and this universe that people are perfectly
happy to just kind of hang out in, that has afforded the Marvel universe to play around
a little bit more with structure.
And some of the movies are a little looser.
Some of them are a little bit funnier than others and so on.
So if your goal is to write a story and for people to notice that you have just told
them a story and for people to care about the story that you have told them, there is
this trick that people use in Hollywood and on the New York bestseller book list or
whatever.
And that is this thing that people generally just sort of call the formula.
And not a whole lot of people know what the formula is.
And other people do know what the formula is, but they have a different formula than someone
else.
So very generically the formula is the idea that a character begins going one direction
and ends the movie 180 degrees in a different direction.
That's the formula.
What does that look like realistically?
Well it means that you need to have a character who starts out definitively being one certain
way.
And then you need to have a movie through which this character journeys and has some experiences
happen to them such that by the end of that journey they are no longer that way.
And in fact for best possible impact you want to have them be the polar opposite of the
way they were at the beginning.
Here's a super easy example that pretty much everyone can identify with if you've seen
some of the really I guess classic films.
I'm not a fan of this film.
I don't know why I'm using it as an example except that I know a lot of people really really
do like it.
And it is in fact one of those movies that gets kind of hammered into you in film school.
So I know it fairly well.
It's called The Godfather.
It's by Francis Lucas Spielberg.
And in the movie there is a character and I don't actually know which character it is
because I don't remember.
But he's played by Al Pacino.
And he is the second in or he's the heir apparent to being the next Godfather should the
first one die off.
Now the problem is that this character hates the family business, the mafia.
He doesn't want to be any he doesn't want to have any part in it.
He can't stand it and drink it and at the beginning of the movie that's his position.
He does not want to be in line for power.
He doesn't want to become a Godfather.
He doesn't want to have anything to do with the family business.
It's just not what he is.
He does not have any interest in it.
He wants to get away from it in fact.
Some stuff happens and then by the end of the movie what do you know there he is standing
in the doorway looking pensive and as if though he has come to peace with the fact that
he is now the Godfather.
So that's a super simple and obvious example that lots of people have seen.
There are lots of other examples like I say there are also degrees of how much these
characters turn.
You don't necessarily have to have them turn 180 degrees.
You can usually fudge it with like 120 maybe 100 90 doesn't usually work.
It needs to be a little bit more drastic than that.
But if you do 180 people really really love it.
You can also think of a dozen examples if you just if you name any romantic comedy generally
speaking the the formula in as applied to a romantic comedy is that you've got a woman
and she is very much in love with the wrong man.
Everyone knows it's the wrong man except this woman.
She'll go through most of the film believing insisting in fact to herself in spite of
all evidence to the contrary that she is in love with the wrong man even though Mr.
Wright comes along about a quarter of the way into the movie and she she can't stand
him.
She rejects him.
He's not good enough for her or whatever.
He's crude.
He's crass.
He's foppish.
Whatever it might be.
And then of course by the end of the movie she's turned around 180 degrees and realized that
the wrong man is indeed the wrong man and that the right man is about to write off into
the sunset without her unless she catches up with him in time.
I don't really know how many more examples I could possibly do there they're all over
the place.
Think about return to the Jedi Darth Vader has spent two movies being really really bad
and despicable but by the end of the third movie he has turned 180 degrees and kills the
emperor in order to save his son and now he's a good guy.
For possibly a more elegant version of some of these examples you may want to go watch
the Ridley Scott movie The Dualists.
It's an early late maybe seventies movie about some some some dual fighters in in France
in the Napoleonic France and it is just a fascinating movie and and it's got a really
beautiful example of how this 180 degree effect can really really hit home.
But enough of the examples how do you how do you leverage this formula for yourself?
Well first of all like I say you don't necessarily have to a lot of times part of knowing the
rules or part of knowing the formula is you know it so now you don't have to follow
it you can break it but I'm just telling you nine times out of ten if if it is something
that you're seeking if you're going to people and you want them to react to a story
that you have told them if you use this formula you will be satisfied if you do not then
you will have to find satisfaction in some in some other aspect of that experience.
You may have to pat yourself on the back for being really really weird and an edgy storyteller
who doesn't conform to conventions or whatever whatever it is out of the that you want to
find pleasure in is up to you but don't expect people to give it back to you unless you
use the formula because that's what people are expecting for better or for worse and
that's a different conversation but I'm just saying generally speaking that's what people
are expecting so let's let's do some practice work here.
So let's invent a formulaic story together and now if we were going to program this if
we were going to script it out you know in code the general pattern that we would have
to leverage is a a z a some stuff so be be be through y essentially and then z again
so that's a a z a be through y and then z what that means is that your character needs
to start out one way in condition a right you need to emphasize you need to demonstrate
that the character is in condition a it's not enough to just tell the audience that that
person's a mean person that's not enough you have to demonstrate it right so that's
a a then you have to dip into that a little bit maybe someone comes into their life unexpected
ly and turns their routine upside down so now they're in state z whether they like it or not
they've gotten there or maybe the character has sat down and thought about their life reassessed
things and said you know what I shouldn't be in state a anymore I should be in state z well that's
fine but we can't let the character spin the rest of the movie in state z that's where they want
to end up so we need to get them back to state a and then have the movie happen have the bulk of
the movie happen and then finally in the end they they make that last minute turnaround back to
z and the audience leaves the theater feeling very sure that the character has changed the the error
of their ways so here's an example let's say that we've got let's do the romantic comedy type
example because that's kind of that's low hanging fruit so if there's a a person there's there's a
guy right and he's single and he's fancy free and he's he's super happy being single and he's
fancy free and he loves them and leaves them and we can show that we'll we'll show him being careless
and free and all the wonderful things he does as a single guy we get to follow along for the first
couple of minutes of the movie which believe me is longer than you think and or we're shorter than
you think it'll feel longer than it actually is it'll be like only five maybe 10 minutes and then
at some point he's going to realize that maybe this isn't as much fun as he thought he he thought
it would be he's decided he needs to find someone else right so he's he's flirting as it were
with state zed he wants to become a married man not a single man he's a single man now and then
momentarily for whatever reason maybe he meets a really cool girl maybe and and for for a moment
he he's seeing the girl for who she is rather than just as someone to to kind of play around with
for an evening and then forget about so he meets a girl and he starts thinking yeah I could do this
I could become a serious I could become I could enter into a relationship but then he something
in him rejects this idea it could be anything it could be maybe he sabotages the relationship
somehow by by making a big deal over something really small that normally wouldn't bug him or maybe
he has a reunion with an old friend from school who who sits down and and is bemused by how this
this once wild and crazy guy has been domesticated so something in him tells him you've got a you
got to stop this you have to be single you have to stay single for life so he he rejects he rejects
state zed the the married committed man and become single again and so now he now stuff happens
they break up he loses the girl the girl goes away he's he tells himself he's happy but
ultimately we we can tell and and eventually he will also tell that he's not really happy
without being committed to this one girl who who meant so much to him and so that's the B
through Y right that's the the second act of the movie probably or at least the bulk of the
second act of where where we know what the man is supposed to become but we but he's rejecting it
he's not that thing and then at the very end of the movie of course something happens he realizes
that that he was right after all he doesn't want to be single anymore that's not providing him
happiness and so he chases after his true love who was just about to get married to the wrong man
in a chapel and so on and so on so there you go that's the formula applied to the romantic comedy
formula and it's funny that I say I'm going to make that up on the spot because I mean if you
really listen to it it's it's exactly every romantic comedy you've ever seen okay let's do
one a little bit different let's do do one about wizards so maybe there is an apprentice the
wizards apprentice and he is a well he's a good he's a good apprentice he's the best actually
he's always being told at how great he is how how obedient and and studious he is he's he's
going to go far as long as he just continues to be patient and and as long as he works hard and
just stays stays a good little apprentice and we see that we demand we we see some scenes where
he demonstrates and it is it is clear at how good of an apprentice he is and maybe there's a
counterpoint of how much fun other people are who who maybe aren't as a studious they they do
other things they they break the rules they they dip into some blood magic or or they they cast
spells that their mentors have told them what they weren't ready for whatever that whatever it might
be so the our good little apprentice starts to wonder what it might like to be what what it might
be like to be a great wizard instead of just an apprentice and so he attempts to perform some
big spell and unfortunately fails miserably so now he's flirting with state z right now right he's
he's going out of his out of his circle out of the the place where he belongs and he is he's trying
something that is forbidden because he wants to become a big wizard so he tries something from
from the opposite end of the spectrum and he fails miserably now the be through why the second act
of the movie will have to be him trying to repair the damage from what he has done maybe he
casts a spell and accidentally summoned a demon and the demon doesn't really uh isn't terribly
obedient and so starts wreaking havoc upon across the land or maybe he sent an important artifact
off to an alternate plane on accident and and now he he's tasked because he did it he's tasked to
to go to go find it again to go recover that thing so be through why stuff happens he he has to
go through some hardships and in order to succeed at those hardships he must remain the dutiful
student he must be patient and he must be he must be exacting and obedient to his his masters
and then at the very end of course when everything is looking at its most bleak he realizes that
along that way as he was being obedient he has he's learned so much that he's arrived at zed he
has arrived at the point of being a great and powerful wizard by by having the experience of
recovering from his mistake and now he's a great and powerful wizard so he succeeds and the
audience leaves with the knowledge that he has has overcome uh subservience and and is is the
new master now but he did it he got it honestly is the important thing there so that's a little
bit of a variation as you can tell that's a that's a slightly slightly slightly different because the
motivations were different and and the progress of the the progression from a to zed is a little
bit more natural in that second act but the the end result is again the same we we started with him
pointed in the direction of hey i'm a noob and we ended up with him pointed in the direction of
i'm the master so you should try this at home if you have any interest in storytelling whether it's
to write a book or whether it is to create a fun story for your role playing group you should
try this you should sit down with the literal formula which is again a a z a b through y and then
z a a she's remember a a reinforced z a reaction and then b through y all the stuff and then zed
again that's that's all it takes and and it will work so if i if let's do another really simple
example where we're without the embellishment we will simply say okay there is a person they're
living in an oppressive empire and they are quite happy living in the oppressive empire because
to them order is comfort so that's a that's our setup now we're going to reinforce that we can
reinforce that with a quick scene wherein this person witnesses some kind of transgression or
i mean if you please it could be a a major atrocity but i i would probably go less is more here
that they see something they witness something that you and i would stand up and say well that's not
right but they don't do that maybe we get a glimpse for a moment that they feel like that's not
right but instead of standing up for what's right they allow it to happen but it does make an
impression on them now we have to introduce them to the the other state of being the other side to
to state z we can do that in a scene that maybe maybe they meet somebody from the rebellion
and not only do they do they turn a blind eye but after a while they actually help with the person
they aid and abet a rebel in doing rebel activity well that was nice for a couple of scenes but then
we need to go get back to a right we need to get back to our comfort zone we need to reject what
we've just done so who knows maybe they report the person maybe they try to confess to the crime
themselves but no one believes them because they're such an upstanding citizen but now they're
they're redoubled in their in their desire to to walk the straight and narrow path and be obedient
to the to the evil empire and so be through why the the big middle part of the movie or the big
middle part of the story they're doing a bunch of stuff they do stuff that because of their
association with the rebel in their moment of weakness they're getting they're getting contacted
by other rebels and have to deny their affiliation but of course in the end they realize that
walking the straight and narrow path blindly following a selfish self-serving and oppressive
government or another word for that is government is not what they really went out of life and so
they at the last minute meet the rebels at the rendezvous point in order to bring down the upper
and ruling class so really that's it that that is the formula you have it now if you are trying
to write a story and you just can't figure out how to get it to that a turn it to be that kind of
story that people have an immediate and pronounced reaction to then follow this formula and and
believe it or not if you if you spend the money and I don't advise doing this but if you spend
the money on on actual on on actual formalized classes in this kind of stuff they will tell you
and and I'm not saying they're wrong I'm just telling you that they will tell you that every chapter
of your book needs to have this structure in a miniaturized way the state of things within a
chapter need to go from from A to Z really just in a really really shrunk down version of all of
this and whether or not anyone achieves a hundred percent formula compliance is is another story
and and there are lots of variations here there's lots of wiggle room and different ways to express it
it doesn't always have to be so obvious that it is a formula right and I think a lot of times when
we see a movie or when we read a book that we just feel it had all the elements it had all the
right elements what why was it so why didn't it just not feel right a lot of times it's because
yes they have the elements and those elements are so obvious to everyone that even if you're not
looking for them you you get you get that they're there and you know that you're being fed a
formula and so it just doesn't taste quite as good now in point of order here the if you're if
you're doing this if you're making a a story for something you have to also consider your
delivery medium obviously movies and books and comics and things like that they're all audio
plays whatever these are fairly passive media so you can tell your your your story to the audience
as is in a very planned out kind of way if you are trying to apply this for instance to a role
playing game then more often the concentration if you're doing like this big long campaign that
you want people to feel really great about I think the more often the state of change is going to
be within the environment and characters should feel like they're having a role in that state of
change like they came into this demon ravaged land but by the end of several months of playing
through the the book or the the story the land has changed back to its natural beauty and everything
is at peace that's something that you as the GM can control because that there's a story there you
you can make you can force the the setting to turn 180 degrees and you can make it seem like your
characters were responsible for it turning 180 degrees it's a little bit more difficult to
make your characters change 180 degrees if you can swing it that's great and I think that in modern
RPG that is a little bit of an expectation where the players come to the GM with this character
with a backstory and maybe certain goals that they have and the GM attempts to incorporate those
things into this into the game over the course of many many months or many many gaming sessions
and that always feels very good but it's not the formula because generally speaking there are
exceptions but generally speaking you bring a character to the GM who is a very very low level
wizard and at the end of the story they have progressively leveled up until they are now a more
powerful wizard and that's it I mean that's that's the drama so that's not that there's no 180 degree
rotation there that is a that is staying the course and becoming the thing that you wanted to
become there's nothing wrong with that I'm just saying that in terms of applying formula to RPG
a lot of times it's harder to do that with on to the characters that you don't control
than it then it is on the setting that you do control or or maybe a very important NPC like the
local the local queen changes her heart or her style of governance because of this loan or this
rag tag party of adventurers and all of the daring deeds that they have done for her that sort of
thing but other than that the formula the idea of the formula is pretty solid it it runs through
stories from long long ago up right up until you know the most recent blockbuster because that's
what we as humans react to it makes us feel really really happy when someone overcomes problems
and then becomes a better person because of those problems I don't know why it just that
happens to make most people feel pretty good about it and even I as someone who says oh I don't
really like the formula that much I mean I still I I get happy at certain movies you know certain
movies make me feel like oh that is good that that has shown a clear progression of this character
and they really changed it through the story and that's great and and by the same token I sometimes
really hate movies that fail to do that that that just take a character who never changes and who
never does anything throughout the movie and they're just they kind of end up in the same place where
they were that doesn't affect me sometimes other times I really really like stories that that forgo
the plot and forgo the traditional constructs of of what a story is but that doesn't mean that when
I see something that does follow the formula and does follow it well that I'm not affected because I
am it works there are lots and lots of movies that are very formulaic that I truly truly
respect and truly truly enjoy so once again just so you remember a a reinforced z a
everything else and then z go try it out whether or not you want to write stories or not go try it
out and submit your little outline in the comments of this episode thanks for listening talk to you later
you've been listening to hecka public radio at hecka public radio dot org we are a community podcast
network that releases shows every weekday Monday through Friday today's show like all our shows
was contributed by an hbr listener like yourself if you ever thought of recording a podcast then
click on our contributing to find out how easy it really is hecka public radio was found
by the digital dog pound and the infonominant computer club and it's part of the binary revolution
at bnw.com if you have comments on today's show please email the host directly leave a comment on
the website or record a follow up episode yourself unless otherwise status today's show is released
creative comments attribution share a light 3.0 license