2289 lines
64 KiB
Plaintext
2289 lines
64 KiB
Plaintext
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Episode: 84
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Title: HPR0084: Phone interview with Kajarii: Linux for the blind user
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Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0084/hpr0084.mp3
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Transcribed: 2025-10-07 11:20:32
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---
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Ho, Ho, Ho.
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And now please read this down below.
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Thanks door on.
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Comments of appreciation for the use of the
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opportunities from the
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Hello, can I speak to David?
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David's right here.
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This is David, I'm speaking to him.
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Yeah, you got that right.
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Okay, David, I'm recording you, is that okay?
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That's great.
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You can do that.
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That's perfect.
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Okay, I have already introduced you as David Churchill.
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Yeah, you can.
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You actually press for the last name, right?
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I've got four key.
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Okay.
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And you are a Linux user from Canada, right?
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Is it British Columbia?
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Yeah, British Columbia.
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Okay.
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And I had been trying to get in touch with you for some time now.
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Yeah.
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We keep screwing up the sick phones and things and blah.
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Anyway.
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I'm here now.
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I am finally glad to have you on the show.
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And how long have you been using Linux, David?
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Oh, best.
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I've been using some values.
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Eight years ago.
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Eight or nine years ago.
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Because I started when I was after I graduated from high school.
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So here.
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Okay.
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And before that, did you, were you a Windows user?
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I was a boss hack pretty much.
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Okay.
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Now, what I'm curious about, you go ahead.
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Next mode is cool.
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Okay.
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What I'm curious about is really what brought you to Linux?
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Or what got you to use Linux the first time?
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Well, okay.
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It goes back there.
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So I was sort of sitting and I was shaking a bunch of computer programming classes.
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And I needed to do a bunch of crap and windows.
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But I wasn't very good at it.
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So I ended up doing a bunch of stuff.
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I learned that I'm boss mode.
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And my teacher was like telling me that I was stupid to be even trying to use graphical mode.
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Because I don't think that way.
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You should try Linux.
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So what's that?
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So he told me what it was.
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I was going off and grabbed the CD.
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And at that time, where the TTY wasn't running against the Star or CDs.
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And speak up hadn't been got working yet.
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So I had to go off.
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Actually, I thought that she did.
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But we have German distribution.
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She's used to be quite popular.
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So I thought that thing.
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Because I have support.
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Okay.
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Actually, I know they call us by it.
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Anyway, so I did the support.
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And then I used that for a bit.
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And once I got bootstrapped, I figured out what I was doing.
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Because you have to understand that I had my prior Linux experience.
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Okay.
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So I did do install that stuck in a chat front.
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And I was like, where do you know?
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So I started reading the box to learn how to craft.
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And I got familiar with everything.
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And then I decided to get some facts from what I was doing.
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I would go try like software.
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So I decided to do that.
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Where do you start from?
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And I started switching to.
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Then something told me about the Linux from scratch projects.
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So I decided to do that.
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I just got to be able to learn about Linux.
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So I'm going to build myself that.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So.
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And I'm not, I'm not mentioned it.
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And I'm sure it's obvious that anybody that's hearing this now,
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and you mentioned Braille support and some of the things you did,
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that you're a blind Linux user.
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But yeah, I don't see the same thing.
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Okay.
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Is that way since birth?
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Is that right?
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Yep.
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Yep.
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Okay.
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So.
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But you've been programming since high school.
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Is that right?
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Hmm.
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A little bit before that actually.
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Because my mom had a lab for 86.
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So.
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Okay.
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You know, you screw down with all the basic craft.
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Which I don't remember any of.
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Yeah.
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Because.
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Well.
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I've been doing so much other languages.
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But that's completely gone after it.
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Yeah.
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You know.
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Okay.
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In addition to Linux from scratch, you use Gen2, right?
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I was talking just yesterday.
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I think that.
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I think that.
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I think that.
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I think that.
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I think that Gen2 has three of everything worked out.
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I might.
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I might put that on my power PC box test.
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But.
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I thought it was really important.
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Okay.
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Do you.
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Do you use Slackware anymore?
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You mentioned Slackware.
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Yeah, I do.
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I have it on my.
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Well.
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But.
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I have.
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That.
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That was.
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I.
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I actually.
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I think that.
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I don't know.
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I.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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I.
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connect while you were still in.
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Yeah, I'm sorry.
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The unstable bedding.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Okay.
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There were some stuff when I did an update.
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Okay.
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So I have to...
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I don't know.
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I probably was...
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I'll probably...
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What I probably do is either...
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put 60 plus the bedding away.
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I don't know.
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I generally like to not have too much animals in there.
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So I generally...
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I generally...
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better with things.
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It doesn't matter what distribution is.
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It really is because by the time I get done with it,
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it doesn't look like anyone's distribution to start with.
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Okay.
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I was going to ask you about that as a...
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Did you have a preference?
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Is there one distribution that is...
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I usually go for...
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I usually go for runs, but I use you to hack.
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Okay.
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Use you to hang out because...
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I like things a certain way.
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I'm very picky if somebody wants to tell me that...
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something works better with the point.
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Right.
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For instance, are you going to experience something
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or if you close the lid on your laptop,
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that assumes that you want to wipe that again again?
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And since I usually work with my laptop,
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the lid closed, and when it was copied out,
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but when I'm doing stuff,
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because I have no need to look through the display.
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Yeah.
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So if I'm just listening to something,
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and just flip the lid down,
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so I don't have to display sucking power.
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Yeah.
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That's probably just one example of...
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the ways that accessibility is...
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maybe an afterthought?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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All the time.
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People always skimp on accessibility.
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I mean...
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The way that it usually gets implemented is that...
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Well, known for instance,
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doesn't even start accessibility until you wire in.
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Yeah.
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Unless you're on salaris,
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because someone doesn't bother to test.
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Basically, somewhere around the worker's stuff,
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and they don't bother to test anything,
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except for wire.
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These days.
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So it basically is a big mess.
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For people that are trying to use mix colors,
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like myself,
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but it's better than any other colors from where I can tell.
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What is Orca?
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Because I mean...
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That may mean...
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That's the screen reader that comes with the name desktop.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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It's the...
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Suppose we were going to make it work with other true kids,
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but it's basically a big mess.
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So I don't know how far we'll get with that.
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Is...
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Is Genome that...
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Or that Orca...
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Is it so tied in the Genome that you use?
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Genome is the desktop or...
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You pretty much have to.
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Unfortunately,
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because it depends on some deprecated Genome stuff
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that is no longer...
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being used by these dumb needed minutes.
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And with the problem,
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there's not so much that Orca requires the Genome stuff,
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it's just that there's something called at-speed,
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which is...
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It's about AT-SPI.
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It's this excessive battery,
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technology, service,
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provider, infrastructure,
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everything is what it stands for.
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Is this part of Genome, too?
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Yes, that's real problem,
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because it is...
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is parking in Genome.
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Orca only depends on...
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Orca only depends on that,
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and some other stuff that the problem is that...
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is so stuck on Genome,
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that there's no battery,
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that it will move,
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that you know,
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and dependencies,
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so you ran up and started the full desktop.
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You know, I would be perfectly happy
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if I just had a terminal
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and that could actually keep one or two due applications.
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Yeah.
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Actually, like, one due application,
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because they don't talk like...
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The only thing I really care about
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is, like,
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I'm kind of forgetting that websites,
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that absolutely require
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some weird scripting thingy.
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Okay.
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This Orca,
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the screen reader functionality,
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is it full functional?
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I mean...
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Yeah, you can use it for pretty much everything.
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It's slow as hell, though,
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because...
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Well,
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because right now,
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they're in the process
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of making it use D-Bus to talk to everything.
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And so, D-Bus has already overloaded
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because everything on the system,
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including how,
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you know,
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the KDE apps,
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and whatever they have,
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that you may have,
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is all using D-Bus, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And then everyone knows.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And then what Orca will use D-Bus,
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and...
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Just to figure it out,
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we can...
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a re-event that happens on a screen
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gets sent to Orca.
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So, if you flip to another window,
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there's a focus change event
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that gets sent,
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there's, you know,
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an event saying
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another window got popped up.
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There's about,
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like,
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and then that's how
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there are plenty of events
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|||
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that happen just
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|||
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because you went to another window.
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|||
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Wow.
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|||
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And then if you press the key,
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|||
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there's a bunch of keyboard events
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|||
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that you press,
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|||
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that the key got pressed down,
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and then the key got released,
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and then that fires off
|
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|
some processing
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|||
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via USB to see whether
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|||
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that was an Orca key,
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and if it was,
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then it does stuff.
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|||
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So basically,
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|||
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what we're doing
|
|||
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|
is they're handling D-Bus
|
|||
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with thousands more events
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|||
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|
than they would have
|
|||
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if there weren't using D-Bus.
|
|||
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|
And it basically means that
|
|||
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|
if you ever get a D-Bus crash,
|
|||
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|
you'll take out
|
|||
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|
the whole best stop
|
|||
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|
and the screen reader
|
|||
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|
and have absolutely no idea
|
|||
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|
what's going on in your machine,
|
|||
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|
unless you had some sort of
|
|||
|
|
console access.
|
|||
|
|
Wow.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah,
|
|||
|
|
it does sound like
|
|||
|
|
it was a...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, well,
|
|||
|
|
it's an access fit.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, the problem is,
|
|||
|
|
you can eventually
|
|||
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|
cite the people
|
|||
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|
designed the access software.
|
|||
|
|
They don't depend on
|
|||
|
|
so it ends up happening
|
|||
|
|
as they don't need
|
|||
|
|
to use it,
|
|||
|
|
but it breaks,
|
|||
|
|
it's not a big deal.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, and I have
|
|||
|
|
a whole lot of your people,
|
|||
|
|
they take the attitude
|
|||
|
|
that if your sound server dies,
|
|||
|
|
it's not critical.
|
|||
|
|
Well,
|
|||
|
|
if I'm sitting there
|
|||
|
|
with a laptop,
|
|||
|
|
and my sound server dies,
|
|||
|
|
and I have no serial clue
|
|||
|
|
on my laptop,
|
|||
|
|
and no USB brothers play,
|
|||
|
|
turn it up to the laptop,
|
|||
|
|
then I have no idea
|
|||
|
|
of what just happened.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Because you just killed
|
|||
|
|
my sound server.
|
|||
|
|
So,
|
|||
|
|
I mean,
|
|||
|
|
people think about the stuff
|
|||
|
|
that
|
|||
|
|
I would say to be a coach
|
|||
|
|
that no program
|
|||
|
|
should ever crash
|
|||
|
|
under any circumstances,
|
|||
|
|
and if it does,
|
|||
|
|
it's a bug somewhere.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Unfortunately,
|
|||
|
|
we have some people who
|
|||
|
|
they go,
|
|||
|
|
oh, every crash is random,
|
|||
|
|
and we're not going to
|
|||
|
|
choose,
|
|||
|
|
and we don't work to fix the bug.
|
|||
|
|
And so,
|
|||
|
|
this is the other reason
|
|||
|
|
why I use it like this,
|
|||
|
|
because the colors
|
|||
|
|
really stay down,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
stuff doesn't crash.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
That.
|
|||
|
|
Are you doing that?
|
|||
|
|
It is there.
|
|||
|
|
And do you use Linux,
|
|||
|
|
because it is best suits
|
|||
|
|
your needs?
|
|||
|
|
Yes.
|
|||
|
|
Yes.
|
|||
|
|
Because you can't.
|
|||
|
|
You can't customize
|
|||
|
|
every instrument
|
|||
|
|
for a proprietary operating system.
|
|||
|
|
It's not possible.
|
|||
|
|
You can't decide that,
|
|||
|
|
oh, I don't want the
|
|||
|
|
configuration files
|
|||
|
|
to move metaphor
|
|||
|
|
in other ways.
|
|||
|
|
Or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
I would imagine that
|
|||
|
|
there's a large amount
|
|||
|
|
of customization
|
|||
|
|
that you have to do
|
|||
|
|
when you install a distribution.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, yeah,
|
|||
|
|
there's stacks.
|
|||
|
|
Like, because most of
|
|||
|
|
the installers don't
|
|||
|
|
come with a screen reader
|
|||
|
|
for one thing.
|
|||
|
|
So, the first thing
|
|||
|
|
you end up doing is
|
|||
|
|
either installing
|
|||
|
|
ground TVI,
|
|||
|
|
or my ground was
|
|||
|
|
better just
|
|||
|
|
cracked out, so
|
|||
|
|
I don't have that
|
|||
|
|
installed right now.
|
|||
|
|
But, you know,
|
|||
|
|
ground was better.
|
|||
|
|
That'll be the first thing
|
|||
|
|
you install.
|
|||
|
|
And you have to make sure
|
|||
|
|
that you have screen access.
|
|||
|
|
It's getting a little
|
|||
|
|
easier if you decide to use
|
|||
|
|
the ground,
|
|||
|
|
because the screen would
|
|||
|
|
have come with the ground,
|
|||
|
|
so distributions usually
|
|||
|
|
should be.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So, you that usually
|
|||
|
|
gets installed.
|
|||
|
|
But then, you know,
|
|||
|
|
if you want
|
|||
|
|
console access,
|
|||
|
|
you have to run,
|
|||
|
|
speak out for ground TVI
|
|||
|
|
or something similar.
|
|||
|
|
Or, well, speak out
|
|||
|
|
to respond,
|
|||
|
|
but it's a kernel patch,
|
|||
|
|
so you have to patch
|
|||
|
|
a kernel and kernel
|
|||
|
|
where there's some
|
|||
|
|
bugs and speak out
|
|||
|
|
that kind of
|
|||
|
|
don't really want
|
|||
|
|
to put it in your kernel
|
|||
|
|
if you could have
|
|||
|
|
read it.
|
|||
|
|
Wow.
|
|||
|
|
So, I think,
|
|||
|
|
if there's been
|
|||
|
|
effects, so,
|
|||
|
|
you know, it's not
|
|||
|
|
too bad.
|
|||
|
|
I can see that,
|
|||
|
|
obviously a
|
|||
|
|
very talented
|
|||
|
|
computer user.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, you're a programmer,
|
|||
|
|
I mean, I,
|
|||
|
|
I.
|
|||
|
|
I can't
|
|||
|
|
check all by that
|
|||
|
|
by saying that
|
|||
|
|
I haven't actually
|
|||
|
|
lived in the
|
|||
|
|
large projects because
|
|||
|
|
it will make
|
|||
|
|
anything.
|
|||
|
|
Thehuhel I was going to
|
|||
|
|
wait.
|
|||
|
|
I've been
|
|||
|
|
it.
|
|||
|
|
So there isn't much
|
|||
|
|
point.
|
|||
|
|
It's not to say that I
|
|||
|
|
have an 하지만
|
|||
|
|
I typically would build stuff and see that if it's an application that I use often, like
|
|||
|
|
M-failure, for instance, or work out or whatever, if it's something that I use regularly,
|
|||
|
|
I just build it from the development tree because I don't care if it breaks because I
|
|||
|
|
like that to fix it.
|
|||
|
|
And then I can report a bug or whatever, but.
|
|||
|
|
This won't be the first stupid question I'm going to ask if it's not the second already.
|
|||
|
|
I'm not really worried about it because I have a long history of this anyway, but.
|
|||
|
|
You can always talk to a question and I will see you.
|
|||
|
|
I think one of my questions is, I mean, you're obviously an experienced Linux user, experienced
|
|||
|
|
computer user, and you know, you weigh around.
|
|||
|
|
In their distribution, Linux from scratch, in your distribution, think of that you as
|
|||
|
|
a cyclist computer user can install without any hand holding for like a better term.
|
|||
|
|
Pretty much, most of them you can, as long as you can get a distribution really like art
|
|||
|
|
for instance.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I needed to draw something on my laptop real quick because a good friend of mine decided
|
|||
|
|
to break my package database on my laptop when I was testing Gen 2.
|
|||
|
|
So I didn't have time to compile that against that.
|
|||
|
|
So someone suggested that I try works Linux.
|
|||
|
|
Well, it turns out that there ain't no media.
|
|||
|
|
Doesn't have a screen reader on it.
|
|||
|
|
So what I had to do was I grabbed a GRMI RICD, which is a.
|
|||
|
|
GRMI is a Linux distribution for weak specically.
|
|||
|
|
It's a devian, it's a devian RICD that has.
|
|||
|
|
Development tools, rescue tools, basically anything that you would need at the concert.
|
|||
|
|
That's some like basic random managers and crap.
|
|||
|
|
But it's a like grab or something?
|
|||
|
|
The GRMI?
|
|||
|
|
No, it's a German word.
|
|||
|
|
Okay, because I've never even heard of that.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I know you wouldn't, but if you go to GRMI, I don't know if it gets there.
|
|||
|
|
I only heard about it because someone on this.
|
|||
|
|
Someone on this pickup list said they were using it.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
What the heck?
|
|||
|
|
I've never heard of that distribution.
|
|||
|
|
So I wouldn't look at it.
|
|||
|
|
But yeah, it's a rescue city.
|
|||
|
|
And it fits on a USB stick.
|
|||
|
|
But you need a, you need, I think, a two gig USB stick for the full version.
|
|||
|
|
But they actually have three versions.
|
|||
|
|
Well, they're actually a four version.
|
|||
|
|
You can count the 64-bit ones.
|
|||
|
|
They've got X86 and X86 64 versions.
|
|||
|
|
And they've got like a small and a medium and a large version.
|
|||
|
|
The small one is like 50 megabytes and doesn't include that much.
|
|||
|
|
And then the medium ones and the bigger ones and the large ones.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I usually get, which has all the development tools and everything.
|
|||
|
|
So basically, if my laptop is completely high-risk, I'm not completely high-risk,
|
|||
|
|
because I can pop this thing.
|
|||
|
|
And then you get that.
|
|||
|
|
All these commas will speak up from the LTPR among other things.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Because it's for 50 megabytes.
|
|||
|
|
So if you're not familiar with the command line, you probably don't want to bother.
|
|||
|
|
Because you've been got the medical officer.
|
|||
|
|
So if you're wondering if people that has to have X working immediately,
|
|||
|
|
it might not be as familiar as that, but it's not everything you're ever going to need.
|
|||
|
|
Like you can, I use them when I get a blank hard disk.
|
|||
|
|
I put it in and do a little system furniture.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So would you consider essential?
|
|||
|
|
I mean, yeah, you've got to have a rescue CD around, especially if you're,
|
|||
|
|
especially if you're, you've got a rescue CD because it's something happened with your mind box.
|
|||
|
|
Like if your sound server crashed.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And you have no idea about that.
|
|||
|
|
And you've got to be.
|
|||
|
|
You can at least do it with the rescue CD.
|
|||
|
|
And then to figure out where you're at, we'll look at the logs and go, oh,
|
|||
|
|
and server crashed.
|
|||
|
|
All right.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
You've just, you've ended up repeating, but at least you've got yourself to a usable state.
|
|||
|
|
And you can, you know, file a bugger.
|
|||
|
|
You can do something because you do what is going on.
|
|||
|
|
And it's not like, you know, the other thing you can do is you can,
|
|||
|
|
the other thing it has, which I haven't seen a lot of YCDs have,
|
|||
|
|
the reason I was able to put art on the laptop that has no serial work, for instance,
|
|||
|
|
is because it has software speech, but the other thing it's got is that you can SSH
|
|||
|
|
into a live CD by just typing.
|
|||
|
|
There's a couple of things you can type up a boot prompt.
|
|||
|
|
One of them is you can tell it to start SSH doing for the password in.
|
|||
|
|
So that means that the CD is the thing that's finished building,
|
|||
|
|
you can SSH through that machine.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Which is extremely useful because then if you don't,
|
|||
|
|
then if you need to put some of the bugs from somewhere, you know,
|
|||
|
|
you have an SSH thing.
|
|||
|
|
So it's cool.
|
|||
|
|
And then you can set the work on your big box or whatever,
|
|||
|
|
and not have like the other software speech or the laptop or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
If you're at some point again.
|
|||
|
|
Now, if you should do that,
|
|||
|
|
but you should have like a little SSH thing.
|
|||
|
|
So if you can't actually start the installer with a screen reader,
|
|||
|
|
then you don't really care because I've got firm machine stuff.
|
|||
|
|
You know, if it had a SSH server,
|
|||
|
|
I could start it through time, then that would help.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
And it's not something that's difficult to do in your use update.
|
|||
|
|
Because even my router wants to have open web reality and the router stuff.
|
|||
|
|
I think we've mentioned this before.
|
|||
|
|
You and I, we've talked previously.
|
|||
|
|
Is that a...
|
|||
|
|
Is that a link system or a Buffalo?
|
|||
|
|
No, it's a link system.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
It's a WRT54G.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
That's...
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
And it sits there and reads my traffic.
|
|||
|
|
All right.
|
|||
|
|
Now, I was going to ask you a question that...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You've mentioned deb in.
|
|||
|
|
You've mentioned Slackware.
|
|||
|
|
I'm writing some scratch.
|
|||
|
|
GRML.
|
|||
|
|
You've mentioned Arch.
|
|||
|
|
Are there any distributions that are just...
|
|||
|
|
Bizmo failures when it comes to...
|
|||
|
|
Any distribution that doesn't have some text mode where I'm installing it is the failure.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Because...
|
|||
|
|
That way...
|
|||
|
|
Well, even Shabura, for instance, they don't have SSH access,
|
|||
|
|
but they have a tone mode in style that you can do.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, you can still get the text mode in style if you want to.
|
|||
|
|
I don't...
|
|||
|
|
I haven't actually...
|
|||
|
|
Little with Shabura.
|
|||
|
|
I'm like though...
|
|||
|
|
I haven't...
|
|||
|
|
Because...
|
|||
|
|
I've seen that there are rather works distribution for what I need.
|
|||
|
|
So...
|
|||
|
|
That's good.
|
|||
|
|
That's almost...
|
|||
|
|
Wow, that they don't have SSH built-in at the boot prompt.
|
|||
|
|
Because I know even DAMM small remix has that, I think.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, right.
|
|||
|
|
Most of them have...
|
|||
|
|
But what happens is most of the distributions,
|
|||
|
|
there's no way to get SSH access.
|
|||
|
|
That's like to punch in something on the boot loader,
|
|||
|
|
the command line, and get SSH access.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
It's cutting edges.
|
|||
|
|
You can't tell when the machine's booted, right?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You know, unless it either plays the sound when it's booted or something,
|
|||
|
|
you don't know.
|
|||
|
|
So, you just sit there and...
|
|||
|
|
And ping the box and wait until it's up and whatever,
|
|||
|
|
you know, punch in the SSH,
|
|||
|
|
until it comes up.
|
|||
|
|
That, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So...
|
|||
|
|
But in the most distributions,
|
|||
|
|
if they could make themselves a lot more accessible,
|
|||
|
|
you just either turn with the screen reader by default, somehow.
|
|||
|
|
Like, it means you does this,
|
|||
|
|
but they do it in a weird way.
|
|||
|
|
And you know, if the punch in about five or six things are...
|
|||
|
|
Like, they can have those graphical boot menu,
|
|||
|
|
and you have to punch in a bunch of sequences of keystrokes,
|
|||
|
|
and it's kind of awkward.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You can make work, but it's...
|
|||
|
|
They should...
|
|||
|
|
They should just make it so that you can type something
|
|||
|
|
at the boot prompt and how to do what you need.
|
|||
|
|
Well, are things getting better with Linux and...
|
|||
|
|
In your major?
|
|||
|
|
I don't even know where.
|
|||
|
|
They're better than they were.
|
|||
|
|
But the problem is that we have now is that...
|
|||
|
|
Well, the speakers start to be in shift.
|
|||
|
|
They know where the problems are with that,
|
|||
|
|
and they're fixing them.
|
|||
|
|
The problem is it's got some issues now that have to deal with...
|
|||
|
|
It could or not have them.
|
|||
|
|
It's a thread for speakers.
|
|||
|
|
And so, speak up is sucking the CPU for...
|
|||
|
|
Like, several milliseconds at a time,
|
|||
|
|
and not letting processes have it.
|
|||
|
|
But that is working on and going to be fixed.
|
|||
|
|
So, that's better than it was.
|
|||
|
|
Because, well, if there was a time for a while,
|
|||
|
|
where you'd run, you'd crowd the lowest kernel,
|
|||
|
|
and then you'd patch, speak up, and it wouldn't work.
|
|||
|
|
Because the kernel people have changed stuff all the time.
|
|||
|
|
Like, every letter a week.
|
|||
|
|
They've changed some kernel in their face.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So, what they're working on now is trying to let speak up into my run.
|
|||
|
|
And if they do that, then it'll be easier to get people to have to.
|
|||
|
|
To get people to have textbook access.
|
|||
|
|
As far as they can understand,
|
|||
|
|
it was a time when it looked really promising
|
|||
|
|
that they're running into the same kernel.
|
|||
|
|
You know, people we can't seem to get the people we care
|
|||
|
|
and not for bad performance and stability to make it work.
|
|||
|
|
Now, I was going to ask you about that.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, the community, the accessibility need community.
|
|||
|
|
Is it large enough to bring the attention that this needed?
|
|||
|
|
I mean, how does, well, I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
It's a lot of the speak up users.
|
|||
|
|
Well, first of all, the problem with any Google oriented system
|
|||
|
|
is you attract people coming from Windows.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And Windows users have any developmentation.
|
|||
|
|
Don't know anything about bug reports.
|
|||
|
|
They don't know anything about meaningful feedback.
|
|||
|
|
So, the problem is that, you know, we have a large,
|
|||
|
|
and the other thing that you run into is
|
|||
|
|
there's a significant group of blind people that have.
|
|||
|
|
They've gone blind later in life.
|
|||
|
|
In fact, most blind people have been born with some side
|
|||
|
|
or whatever, and then they went blind later in their life.
|
|||
|
|
And so, a lot of times you're having older people.
|
|||
|
|
Some of them have multiple disabilities.
|
|||
|
|
And so, you have a bunch of users who expect things to just work
|
|||
|
|
and don't give people feedback when it doesn't work.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And then you have a bunch of sighted people programming
|
|||
|
|
like ORCA, which they need to be there because obviously
|
|||
|
|
we can't read the screen if the screen is busted.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So, you need to have people working on those,
|
|||
|
|
but they fall into the trap as well.
|
|||
|
|
It works well enough.
|
|||
|
|
But they don't actually need to use it regularly.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So, you know, the extra platform, they don't understand
|
|||
|
|
that you want to have speech or ball feedback as quickly
|
|||
|
|
as you can get it.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You post-tomach fades or just like everybody else is.
|
|||
|
|
Just like everyone else.
|
|||
|
|
You wouldn't like it if when you pressed a key,
|
|||
|
|
you had to wait 10 seconds before the impact of your key press
|
|||
|
|
showed up on the monitor.
|
|||
|
|
Yep.
|
|||
|
|
Exactly.
|
|||
|
|
And that's what I'm getting, sometimes when I use ORCA,
|
|||
|
|
like ALX.
|
|||
|
|
You get the way the screen readers work is you press keys
|
|||
|
|
to review certain parts of the screen.
|
|||
|
|
So, somebody will say something on IRC
|
|||
|
|
and they'll be off in some other console here that they said.
|
|||
|
|
But it's been about five messages came in and some,
|
|||
|
|
you know, reviewing all these messages that came in on IRC.
|
|||
|
|
And so, if I want a certain one up, I'll hit one of the reviews here.
|
|||
|
|
Then it might take, you know, five or ten seconds.
|
|||
|
|
Wow.
|
|||
|
|
Before I actually hear whatever it was that I wanted to hear.
|
|||
|
|
And then if a bunch of events came in between the time
|
|||
|
|
that that key press got spoken, then they all get queued up
|
|||
|
|
and I get handled with about, you know,
|
|||
|
|
a bunch of speech that I didn't necessarily want or it was.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
It's, you know, and if it would just be responsive in the first place,
|
|||
|
|
it would be hard.
|
|||
|
|
Hardware can fix them.
|
|||
|
|
Can you help me?
|
|||
|
|
I know.
|
|||
|
|
It's not hard.
|
|||
|
|
It's not that hard, the thing because the box that I'm seeing
|
|||
|
|
that issue on is that it's some, you know,
|
|||
|
|
one of those dual core things.
|
|||
|
|
It's got, it's an SMP box, and it's got, you know,
|
|||
|
|
a couple of gigs of well.
|
|||
|
|
So I say, you know, it's not hard to push it to you.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, unless you want to say that you need a hard core
|
|||
|
|
of well-excessibility.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, the thing is not slow.
|
|||
|
|
I usually want to believe that when I don't do that,
|
|||
|
|
it's like a fast box.
|
|||
|
|
I built it so I could have a fast box to build by all the fast crap.
|
|||
|
|
You know, I don't want it to take 30 minutes to build GCC.
|
|||
|
|
So it takes about 10, you know.
|
|||
|
|
So it's not that the box is slow.
|
|||
|
|
It's just that the way that the atmosphere and the condom stuff
|
|||
|
|
is implemented.
|
|||
|
|
Wow.
|
|||
|
|
I've even heard you talk about that in general
|
|||
|
|
about the condom stuff being slow before.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So that's, I think what we're seeing is that
|
|||
|
|
accessibility is exacerbating a problem with hardware
|
|||
|
|
because what happens is any time you have accessibility,
|
|||
|
|
you put a load on the system because you're sending info
|
|||
|
|
over time somewhere else.
|
|||
|
|
And there's no way to disconnect the video cards
|
|||
|
|
and now instead of just sending one settle info to you now,
|
|||
|
|
sending two sets of information.
|
|||
|
|
So I think that's part of it,
|
|||
|
|
that it could be actually a little better.
|
|||
|
|
If they reduce the world time program and they're something
|
|||
|
|
they probably could get it down,
|
|||
|
|
but the problem is that...
|
|||
|
|
So installing a real time kernel doesn't help the situation
|
|||
|
|
or what...
|
|||
|
|
You know, because if you can say real time kernels,
|
|||
|
|
then once somebody knows how to make the scheduler work.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
You know, you have to actually,
|
|||
|
|
like Paul Faudier, for instance,
|
|||
|
|
knows about real time stuff.
|
|||
|
|
So it's very responsive,
|
|||
|
|
but the problem isn't in the sense
|
|||
|
|
of where the problem is in accessibility infrastructure.
|
|||
|
|
You know, it should be the other real time thread.
|
|||
|
|
It should...
|
|||
|
|
What you could do that with the stock kernel
|
|||
|
|
and you actually don't need any special real time threads
|
|||
|
|
because the real time stuff is already
|
|||
|
|
in the latest kernels I believe.
|
|||
|
|
Now, you've mentioned GNOME repeatedly,
|
|||
|
|
or GNOME, ever how it wants users to say...
|
|||
|
|
I mean, really, sure.
|
|||
|
|
I think it's GNOME.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Is that kind of hard for you to say?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, it is.
|
|||
|
|
But you've not mentioned KDE.
|
|||
|
|
Because they have no accessibility to speak of that on their network.
|
|||
|
|
That's...
|
|||
|
|
I won't use the word that's the process, man.
|
|||
|
|
I guess it does.
|
|||
|
|
I mean...
|
|||
|
|
I just wonder how...
|
|||
|
|
I mean, they've been around longer than GNOME.
|
|||
|
|
I mean...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, you would think that they would,
|
|||
|
|
but as far as I know,
|
|||
|
|
there's no way to read a QC application with a screen reader.
|
|||
|
|
That's why.
|
|||
|
|
I know they have...
|
|||
|
|
You know...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I think...
|
|||
|
|
It goes up to me.
|
|||
|
|
I would be happy with something like...
|
|||
|
|
I was reading a window mail.
|
|||
|
|
Here's a Linux.com email.
|
|||
|
|
You were there.
|
|||
|
|
And they had an article and something called ION,
|
|||
|
|
which is basically...
|
|||
|
|
from what the article said,
|
|||
|
|
it was basically a really minimalist window manager
|
|||
|
|
that had like almost no buttons,
|
|||
|
|
but you just did everything with the keyboard.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, of course.
|
|||
|
|
And the only thing that starts up is like a little terminal.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
But that would be a perfect window,
|
|||
|
|
because most of what I do is from a terminal anyway,
|
|||
|
|
except when I need to look at weird script-y bit websites,
|
|||
|
|
or, you know, if somebody came out with...
|
|||
|
|
No, I used a few times.
|
|||
|
|
It would be just because I was lazy
|
|||
|
|
and I wanted to see if it worked.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
But, and there's...
|
|||
|
|
You know, there's...
|
|||
|
|
But outside of that,
|
|||
|
|
you know, there's not really anything...
|
|||
|
|
But I really...
|
|||
|
|
You know, to everything,
|
|||
|
|
you should put in a shelf.
|
|||
|
|
You know what you're doing,
|
|||
|
|
but there's not really much point in using
|
|||
|
|
anything else, really.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Unless you have to, for some reason.
|
|||
|
|
But, like...
|
|||
|
|
Like a headphone,
|
|||
|
|
you said you've used it from a GUI.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And there's a console mode,
|
|||
|
|
but I just wanted to see if the GUI
|
|||
|
|
won't work with orchestra.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, I mean...
|
|||
|
|
I guess what I don't understand is how orchestra works.
|
|||
|
|
If...
|
|||
|
|
I mean, do you use a mouse with a GUI?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You use a keyboard,
|
|||
|
|
and there's a cursor,
|
|||
|
|
and it...
|
|||
|
|
If you...
|
|||
|
|
Go ahead.
|
|||
|
|
So, what you do is,
|
|||
|
|
on the...
|
|||
|
|
Like your screen,
|
|||
|
|
you're going to review cursor, right?
|
|||
|
|
Which is a cursor that is sort of only...
|
|||
|
|
It doesn't actually do anything
|
|||
|
|
to the pointer on the screen.
|
|||
|
|
It...
|
|||
|
|
It's just...
|
|||
|
|
The screen you do keeps track
|
|||
|
|
of where it thinks
|
|||
|
|
that you are on the screen.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
But it has nothing to do with...
|
|||
|
|
The way that works
|
|||
|
|
it implements it for instance,
|
|||
|
|
everything on the screen
|
|||
|
|
is an object.
|
|||
|
|
So, you're basically going through
|
|||
|
|
this object,
|
|||
|
|
the tree.
|
|||
|
|
Right.
|
|||
|
|
So,
|
|||
|
|
and then,
|
|||
|
|
when you want to become something,
|
|||
|
|
then there's a...
|
|||
|
|
There's a key on the keypad
|
|||
|
|
that you press that
|
|||
|
|
simulates the fact that you click
|
|||
|
|
your mouse there.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
It sends...
|
|||
|
|
It basically sends the click event
|
|||
|
|
to whatever program
|
|||
|
|
it was you're using.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, because I can't physically use a mouse
|
|||
|
|
for obvious words.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Because you have no idea
|
|||
|
|
where exactly the pointer is.
|
|||
|
|
Exactly.
|
|||
|
|
So, that's how they implement it.
|
|||
|
|
And, of course,
|
|||
|
|
in text cards,
|
|||
|
|
as you don't need a mouse.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Because everything is just,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
so you just review the screen.
|
|||
|
|
And, you know,
|
|||
|
|
you can...
|
|||
|
|
That's basically where you need
|
|||
|
|
those just commands.
|
|||
|
|
And then, usually,
|
|||
|
|
move them to, like,
|
|||
|
|
the keypad
|
|||
|
|
because nothing else is using that.
|
|||
|
|
So.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
What applications?
|
|||
|
|
I mean,
|
|||
|
|
you've mentioned Firefox.
|
|||
|
|
You've mentioned Orca,
|
|||
|
|
which I don't really
|
|||
|
|
because of application or...
|
|||
|
|
No, it's a screen.
|
|||
|
|
It's a screen.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, whatever applications,
|
|||
|
|
I'm not necessarily talking about
|
|||
|
|
just for, you know,
|
|||
|
|
for you to do your
|
|||
|
|
day-to-day computing.
|
|||
|
|
But, once you can't
|
|||
|
|
live without, for whatever reason.
|
|||
|
|
So, you can't live without
|
|||
|
|
M-Player,
|
|||
|
|
because it plays everything.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You don't like DLC?
|
|||
|
|
Well, I guess...
|
|||
|
|
You don't see how it's a command line,
|
|||
|
|
do you?
|
|||
|
|
I don't know anything about it.
|
|||
|
|
I haven't read it.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
And, I've got an M-Player
|
|||
|
|
to play pretty well everything.
|
|||
|
|
So, that's just all I've used.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
It has a very rich command line
|
|||
|
|
of the in-player dough.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, it's about DLC myself.
|
|||
|
|
You can basically make it
|
|||
|
|
do everything for the command line,
|
|||
|
|
including stuff like
|
|||
|
|
this video's
|
|||
|
|
and everything else.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I like this app,
|
|||
|
|
but it lets you set the video
|
|||
|
|
I've put to know.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, you're not wasting
|
|||
|
|
your CPU sending video
|
|||
|
|
to the video card,
|
|||
|
|
but it's not really
|
|||
|
|
being used for you.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I mean,
|
|||
|
|
this is the one,
|
|||
|
|
you know, it's something
|
|||
|
|
I would never think of,
|
|||
|
|
because it's not part of me.
|
|||
|
|
No, you would never use that.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
But, you know,
|
|||
|
|
I would use that
|
|||
|
|
because someone would send me
|
|||
|
|
like a, you know,
|
|||
|
|
a send video,
|
|||
|
|
or rather,
|
|||
|
|
that I want the audio
|
|||
|
|
from, but the picture
|
|||
|
|
is not how it takes me.
|
|||
|
|
So, I just turn it off.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So, I use that.
|
|||
|
|
I use some,
|
|||
|
|
of course,
|
|||
|
|
you have to have a text,
|
|||
|
|
no red,
|
|||
|
|
but as you're aware,
|
|||
|
|
so I usually use e-link
|
|||
|
|
for that.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
And then I've got,
|
|||
|
|
I use
|
|||
|
|
NMH for getting my mail,
|
|||
|
|
which is,
|
|||
|
|
the oldest mail system
|
|||
|
|
on the planet, I swear.
|
|||
|
|
What, where is it again?
|
|||
|
|
NMH.
|
|||
|
|
NMH.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, we've been
|
|||
|
|
message and door.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. So, I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
I've heard of that one.
|
|||
|
|
Well, Davin used to install one
|
|||
|
|
that was, uh,
|
|||
|
|
began with an e,
|
|||
|
|
I'm showing my,
|
|||
|
|
like, supreme ignorance,
|
|||
|
|
right now.
|
|||
|
|
No, what now?
|
|||
|
|
What was, uh,
|
|||
|
|
NMH?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Uh, e-mail per rub.
|
|||
|
|
Uh,
|
|||
|
|
the NMH.
|
|||
|
|
It was email handler.
|
|||
|
|
I'm his e-mailH.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, it could be,
|
|||
|
|
I'm not sure.
|
|||
|
|
It could be e-mail.
|
|||
|
|
That's an e-max.
|
|||
|
|
That's an e-max.
|
|||
|
|
I'm done for the NMH.
|
|||
|
|
I believe.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
But I'm, I usually use the e-mail,
|
|||
|
|
so.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
It is, it's via what you,
|
|||
|
|
what you grew up on,
|
|||
|
|
what you learned,
|
|||
|
|
or what?
|
|||
|
|
Well, actually,
|
|||
|
|
I wasn't really sure.
|
|||
|
|
I was like,
|
|||
|
|
well, I started using
|
|||
|
|
what it actually had like,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
nano and keep going
|
|||
|
|
those type of things.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And because I'm trying to
|
|||
|
|
write code,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
let it, let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
and,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
let it,
|
|||
|
|
and,
|
|||
|
|
and...
|
|||
|
|
Let me see.
|
|||
|
|
So network
|
|||
|
|
level and
|
|||
|
|
again,
|
|||
|
|
and what each two
|
|||
|
|
I found some software that I didn't, I worked pretty well, but I decided that I didn't quite like it.
|
|||
|
|
I was going to mix it, but I didn't, but I was going to mix it because I didn't speak English and post-pulsar or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
So I basically went to my friend and I said, can I get a feedback?
|
|||
|
|
And he said, yeah, you can get a feedback, didn't he?
|
|||
|
|
He looked me up with a text copy as well.
|
|||
|
|
That's the K and all of the work.
|
|||
|
|
You know, the big, the original.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I'm going to assume you already know how to program.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Could we, if you can, if you can, not us it?
|
|||
|
|
Well, if you have a quickly show, you better be there in attention.
|
|||
|
|
But is that, and then he also found a book of thinking and see post-pulsar, which is available on them?
|
|||
|
|
So I grabbed those and I started hacking and stuff, and then I asked them, well, what am I going to get a decent editor?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, surely there's got to be stacks of text editors for a remix, right?
|
|||
|
|
And so then I got into the whole BI and E-max rule.
|
|||
|
|
You know, pick one and see what we like.
|
|||
|
|
And actually, I tried both of them for that.
|
|||
|
|
But I decided that I liked the idea because you don't have to know less to customize your editor.
|
|||
|
|
It takes less time to experience, I mean.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You like that.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, there's control, X and all X and all the combinations just about throughout.
|
|||
|
|
Especially if you type DuVork.
|
|||
|
|
It's about DuVork, my hands, clearly.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And I've never messed with a DuVork keyboard.
|
|||
|
|
No, I did only because I have to type lots because I don't, you know, wear everything.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So I have to type lots.
|
|||
|
|
And I don't have to type with that type as well.
|
|||
|
|
So I really don't want to work my fingers.
|
|||
|
|
Okay, look at that.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I don't want to get a question about the backpack.
|
|||
|
|
No, I think I learned on E-max because I think at the time when I started using this
|
|||
|
|
is Red Hat 39 or around there.
|
|||
|
|
I wonder if that was the default editor with E-max.
|
|||
|
|
No, that usually.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, that's the one I ended up using now.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know why.
|
|||
|
|
But it may just be.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So what happened to me was that my friend, my friend is one of these people.
|
|||
|
|
That was right.
|
|||
|
|
He is from the VI side of the editor framework.
|
|||
|
|
So the guy that gave me the C-book or everything, he was like, well, you should learn VI.
|
|||
|
|
And I'll explain it here.
|
|||
|
|
And so he might have just taught me how to use this thing.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And if you have somebody to explain it to, it's perfectly logical.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I think what people get.
|
|||
|
|
I think what people get on from what bothers people is that nobody explains how it works
|
|||
|
|
to them.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Like, people need to understand what it means to be in command loads and what it means to
|
|||
|
|
be an insured load.
|
|||
|
|
But what I like about it is that VI or some clone of it is available everywhere.
|
|||
|
|
That's right.
|
|||
|
|
I usually use them.
|
|||
|
|
But if I go to my work, I don't have the same editor, even though it's running busy box.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know if you go on the work, but a bunch of me commands.
|
|||
|
|
That's why I learned.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
It's been a long time.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
But it also teaches you things like everything, everything, everything.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Because they all use the same commands.
|
|||
|
|
So you're having to learn, like, a stack of other things.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And you don't.
|
|||
|
|
And it does everything you need.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, it's pretty well every editing feature that you maximize and probably some of it.
|
|||
|
|
You might have to write separate applications for it.
|
|||
|
|
Because I just use that because that works for me.
|
|||
|
|
And it's, you know, I think easy to hack.
|
|||
|
|
Configuration files.
|
|||
|
|
I think easy to read.
|
|||
|
|
So I don't have to learn less.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Now, you mentioned Orca being a screen reader.
|
|||
|
|
But what is the spates synthesis system you use?
|
|||
|
|
Well, we're going to try and have a better talk at a TV, which is a hardware synthesizer that plugs into a serial port.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
And I like that because it speaks really quick.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Now, is that, is that run Linux?
|
|||
|
|
Is that something that's like an echo?
|
|||
|
|
No, it's just a box that I don't even think it really has an operating system.
|
|||
|
|
Basically, you send text out the serial port and it speaks it.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
And it's got like some ROM that controls pronunciation and other things.
|
|||
|
|
But it's just a little box that you try to use at a serial port.
|
|||
|
|
It's got a speaker and a volume control.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
And it had for a jack and you just flip the volume control on them.
|
|||
|
|
How do you use any of the software solutions that come with Linux?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I usually use e-speak for a software synth because it's a much responsive of the software synth.
|
|||
|
|
It doesn't speak fast enough, but it's still.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
It sounds about to be used a little bit, not as quick as I would like.
|
|||
|
|
What about that one?
|
|||
|
|
What are some of the others?
|
|||
|
|
One of the things like there's like fast development, flight and...
|
|||
|
|
Oh.
|
|||
|
|
I think there used to be unblown places as well.
|
|||
|
|
I'm not sure if those were kicking around still.
|
|||
|
|
But fast development is just too slow and too big, it could be useful.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
But you need that.
|
|||
|
|
It works great for what you do because you're not actually using it for a screen reader.
|
|||
|
|
Exactly.
|
|||
|
|
It's a novelty for me.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Well, it's cool because it's a human sounding voice.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And that's...
|
|||
|
|
I've wanted to say it was an embelle voice, but it's not.
|
|||
|
|
I think it's one of the Arctic voices.
|
|||
|
|
I think it's one of the voices.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Something like that.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
But what I noticed is that when you get human sounding voices, they start more computer memory
|
|||
|
|
and they don't respond this quick.
|
|||
|
|
So...
|
|||
|
|
I mean, when you're talking about...
|
|||
|
|
When you're talking about daily use, flight generally tend to go for speed before or after pronunciation
|
|||
|
|
or other things.
|
|||
|
|
Because a lot of the pronunciations consistent, you don't really care.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And double pod gets it right most of the time and you speak gets it right most of the time.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I would imagine it is a lot like...
|
|||
|
|
For sighted people, it's been shown that they can...
|
|||
|
|
And they'll be the same with Braille too.
|
|||
|
|
I have no idea about that.
|
|||
|
|
But I'm sure your fingers recognize letters.
|
|||
|
|
A lot like maybe something...
|
|||
|
|
This is complete ignorance on my part.
|
|||
|
|
Some people's eyes recognize words.
|
|||
|
|
But it's been shown you can leave a certain amount of letters out of a word.
|
|||
|
|
And the human eye can still...
|
|||
|
|
Or the brain can still recognize what the word is.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And...
|
|||
|
|
That actually the little...
|
|||
|
|
The little Braille reading works is...
|
|||
|
|
You actually end up reading every word twice because you're...
|
|||
|
|
You're moving your hands across the one.
|
|||
|
|
Like you...
|
|||
|
|
You put both of your hands on...
|
|||
|
|
Like if you had a Braille book or a Braille display that was big enough...
|
|||
|
|
Usually this isn't so sure of a Braille display because you only have one line of Braille here.
|
|||
|
|
You're moving...
|
|||
|
|
You can choose on the Braille display to move the Braille line up and down the screen or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
But if you read in the book...
|
|||
|
|
What you do is you put both of your hands...
|
|||
|
|
You don't actually read with your thumb or your little finger because they're...
|
|||
|
|
They're shorter and little out of the way.
|
|||
|
|
They're not really little lines with other fingers.
|
|||
|
|
So you just use the other three fingers on your...
|
|||
|
|
On your both your hands and...
|
|||
|
|
What you didn't happen...
|
|||
|
|
So if you start out reading with your right hand...
|
|||
|
|
And then your left hand sort of follows behind it to keep track of what...
|
|||
|
|
Why you happen to be on.
|
|||
|
|
Then when you get to the end of the line...
|
|||
|
|
You just move your...
|
|||
|
|
Your hands down and continue.
|
|||
|
|
So the side effect of that is that you end up reading every one twice.
|
|||
|
|
But over time you learn to ignore the output.
|
|||
|
|
The second bunch of output.
|
|||
|
|
Unless you read it.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So if you read over a word and you didn't get it...
|
|||
|
|
The first time you'll get it.
|
|||
|
|
The second time.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Which means that it's extremely refreshing.
|
|||
|
|
And you can read very quickly.
|
|||
|
|
And, you know, like you say, if you read out a couple of letters...
|
|||
|
|
Well, you can take it up.
|
|||
|
|
You can take it up.
|
|||
|
|
Fine.
|
|||
|
|
I was going to ask you something.
|
|||
|
|
This is an extremely interesting conversation for me.
|
|||
|
|
And I'm listening and forgetting what I was going to ask you next.
|
|||
|
|
Take notes.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Hard to do while I'm operating the steering wheel here.
|
|||
|
|
Well, you could take notes before you found it.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I did.
|
|||
|
|
Actually, I've got my index card in my hand.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, okay.
|
|||
|
|
Screen reader.
|
|||
|
|
That's what I was going to ask you about.
|
|||
|
|
You said a Braille reader reads text one line at a time.
|
|||
|
|
Is that what you say?
|
|||
|
|
The Braille display.
|
|||
|
|
The Braille display.
|
|||
|
|
Which is basically what it is.
|
|||
|
|
It's a line of...
|
|||
|
|
It's supposed to sit on your keyboard.
|
|||
|
|
Like, usually I have a line of a bunch of Braille cells.
|
|||
|
|
And then above that, there would be like a flat surface that you can put your keyboard on.
|
|||
|
|
And so, when you slide your hands off the keyboard,
|
|||
|
|
because the one disadvantage of Braille over speech access is that you have to take your hands off the keyboard to read it.
|
|||
|
|
And that's what that review key is for?
|
|||
|
|
So, that's why there's buttons on the Braille display.
|
|||
|
|
So, you can move the display around the screen without taking your hands off the display.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, like you're using Braille, you don't have to reach up and hit the number of pad keys on the keyboard to review stuff,
|
|||
|
|
because those usually control speech access.
|
|||
|
|
And then you control the Braille from the Braille display.
|
|||
|
|
Because you're just going to move the Braille display around you.
|
|||
|
|
You want to move your hands as close to you as possible.
|
|||
|
|
So, it's quicker.
|
|||
|
|
That's why IRC doesn't work so well if you're going to get a Braille display.
|
|||
|
|
But you can do it because Braille PTI is nice.
|
|||
|
|
It has a free speech that will make the Braille display keep the same screen image that it had to not bother to make Braille PTI
|
|||
|
|
why not update what would be on the screen.
|
|||
|
|
So, you have that time to go back and figure out what was there.
|
|||
|
|
And then you can unfreeze it when you output.
|
|||
|
|
Which means that you can.
|
|||
|
|
Because there was a time where I didn't actually have a hardware synthesizer which I used,
|
|||
|
|
or exclusively for about a year and a half.
|
|||
|
|
But I actually quite good at it.
|
|||
|
|
But I'm still good at it.
|
|||
|
|
But the system of the Braille display is good.
|
|||
|
|
Because I like having a display for programming.
|
|||
|
|
It's much better.
|
|||
|
|
Because I don't have to listen to stuff like.
|
|||
|
|
You mean less credit, right?
|
|||
|
|
Right.
|
|||
|
|
Less credit.
|
|||
|
|
I send you.
|
|||
|
|
When you say you have a display and you talk about freezing.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That doesn't update.
|
|||
|
|
That's an essence of page.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
It's basically whatever a screen follows.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So you can go back and review.
|
|||
|
|
I think that's what I was trying to grasp is a Braille reader or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You have a Braille display.
|
|||
|
|
You can.
|
|||
|
|
But why do you have a Braille P2Y with the only screen reader that I've seen that actually free.
|
|||
|
|
Well, that's you free as well.
|
|||
|
|
But most of the other ones don't want you to do that.
|
|||
|
|
But I was wondering, other than a debugger, you know, how you would go back and review code
|
|||
|
|
that you had written.
|
|||
|
|
But I think I understand now.
|
|||
|
|
You have review keys for speech and Braille that you can do that.
|
|||
|
|
And the review keys work all the time.
|
|||
|
|
So even if you weren't freezing the screen, you could still review stuff.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
It's just that the reason the free is the Braille was Braille is so that you don't have a bunch of,
|
|||
|
|
because the way that the vegetable Braille works is your line of Braille is being refreshed
|
|||
|
|
in real time, just like your display is, except that it's Braille.
|
|||
|
|
Just like speech would be constantly reading the new stuff that can.
|
|||
|
|
And the Braille display would be getting updated constantly.
|
|||
|
|
So what I would mean is that as you were reading, if you're reading IRC,
|
|||
|
|
the new stuff comes in, it refreshes right underneath your fingers the new stuff.
|
|||
|
|
Which, if you know, which happens, of course.
|
|||
|
|
What you've seen in the score on IRC, right, it happens so quickly that you have to wait
|
|||
|
|
until it finishes it before you can properly read with scoring by.
|
|||
|
|
So that, with the same effect, of course, happens when you have to wait until it's finished.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
If any.
|
|||
|
|
Otherwise, it just sort of flips from under your fingers.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Are there any, I'm going to have a hard time forming this question.
|
|||
|
|
I think there are any limitations.
|
|||
|
|
The stuff you do every day, things that just don't work the way that you want them to.
|
|||
|
|
I'm not, I'm not, I guess I'm, well, I'm thinking of it as something specific,
|
|||
|
|
like, I don't know that.
|
|||
|
|
I guess because I can't think of something that is, I should just let you tell me.
|
|||
|
|
But, uh, no, what, like specific stuff?
|
|||
|
|
I was thinking, you know, it is, and it's probably the stuff you have to get used to,
|
|||
|
|
but as screen readers and stuff like, if you're programming,
|
|||
|
|
and you've got syntax highlighting errors,
|
|||
|
|
I think it's like a syntax highlighting this completely useless.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You pretty much have to read, you pretty much have to read, uh,
|
|||
|
|
pretty much have to read it yourself.
|
|||
|
|
What is cooler that is that, um, both work,
|
|||
|
|
and speak up for the read indentation which does help.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
But, yeah, synthetic highlighting is kind of useless really.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I guess what it should do if it finds errors,
|
|||
|
|
is it, you know, maybe it could beat percent.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I'm not a programmer.
|
|||
|
|
You know, seeing as, to me, syntax highlighting is, is, I guess,
|
|||
|
|
a reminder for societies or visual reminder.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You know, you know, you didn't need a brace here.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You didn't put a brace there.
|
|||
|
|
You don't have to have the parentheses on this land.
|
|||
|
|
Or you can put a seven colon or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
And it usually hides the part that's the problem.
|
|||
|
|
You know, you should be here, you know,
|
|||
|
|
if it's going to be as excited and some useful way.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You know, I don't know whether it should,
|
|||
|
|
well, I can put a percent on your status,
|
|||
|
|
like on the bottom line of the screen way,
|
|||
|
|
you'd be displaced.
|
|||
|
|
And I must say it was good for that one because the screen really went read that,
|
|||
|
|
because that part was shown, so it could say,
|
|||
|
|
oh, you screwed up here.
|
|||
|
|
Let me have a look at that.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
There's some sort of message that says there's an error.
|
|||
|
|
Python kind of does that accept that.
|
|||
|
|
Where it shows you where in the line there's an error.
|
|||
|
|
It doesn't actually.
|
|||
|
|
It doesn't show it in some sort of visual way,
|
|||
|
|
and I haven't been able to figure that out.
|
|||
|
|
But, um, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
They should definitely improve that, so I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, sure.
|
|||
|
|
Because I've never actually seen syntax highlighting something
|
|||
|
|
to be less than what it's supposed to do.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And I sort of am, too, because I'm not a programmer.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, I know what it is, and I've seen it.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You haven't needed to use it.
|
|||
|
|
I haven't seen it that much.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Is it?
|
|||
|
|
This is a lesson I like for JavaScript, though.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I think so.
|
|||
|
|
You like JavaScript, though?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, but I usually do.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I don't, I think it's something you have to actually cut.
|
|||
|
|
It physically turn on in a configuration file,
|
|||
|
|
which I've never bothered to do, so.
|
|||
|
|
It makes you really better to do, because you think it's useful.
|
|||
|
|
It's not really good.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I'm just not advanced enough to actually need it,
|
|||
|
|
because I don't write the super wrong ones or something.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, I-
|
|||
|
|
I scratch an issue.
|
|||
|
|
I don't want to get to it.
|
|||
|
|
Self-crypt is just so many, you know, command-blind.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, I don't really find syntax highlighting that useful anyway,
|
|||
|
|
because what I've found out is that if it doesn't compile,
|
|||
|
|
you know, you've got issues.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
If it doesn't run, you know, you've got problems,
|
|||
|
|
and then you've got a problem.
|
|||
|
|
But sometimes it would be helpful if you had it on desk,
|
|||
|
|
because then you're not doing like I am looking around
|
|||
|
|
to run the ones that are three lines up from the one that-
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That actually has caused me ever.
|
|||
|
|
Not the comparison.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That's one thing that's completely useless.
|
|||
|
|
The other thing is that I find annoyingness when people,
|
|||
|
|
for whatever reason, decide they need a graphical food runner.
|
|||
|
|
I hate that, because you're booting a lot of CD.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I tend to get this, but I want to be in touch with a new lot of CD
|
|||
|
|
that they just came out with.
|
|||
|
|
I know whoever I pictured out, we filed a bug,
|
|||
|
|
but we're using the Grub Bootloader.
|
|||
|
|
I remember when they first went to that.
|
|||
|
|
It struck me hard.
|
|||
|
|
It's not obvious how it is that you're supposed to get Grub to let you
|
|||
|
|
better than command-blind.
|
|||
|
|
If you use a Rallow, which I use, they have Rallow System Speed 2.
|
|||
|
|
Well, you know, system Linux or Rallow,
|
|||
|
|
it comes up and you get a thing that says Boot Clone,
|
|||
|
|
which I know a lot, because I've got the Double Talk to Speak.
|
|||
|
|
The boot must have come up with serial report.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
But, so you get attached to command-blind,
|
|||
|
|
and you just type in your command-blind in a lot,
|
|||
|
|
but turn off it goes.
|
|||
|
|
But Grub doesn't let you do that,
|
|||
|
|
because it comes up with a boot menu,
|
|||
|
|
and you've got to select what you want,
|
|||
|
|
and then figure out what entry you're going to edit.
|
|||
|
|
Of course, you don't have a screen with your own operating system
|
|||
|
|
ready with this point.
|
|||
|
|
So you have no feedback at all.
|
|||
|
|
So yeah, that's kind of annoying to you.
|
|||
|
|
But you should just make it.
|
|||
|
|
And really, that shows that all the letters
|
|||
|
|
should have text command-blind,
|
|||
|
|
but you can just, when they come up,
|
|||
|
|
and they should have this beep too.
|
|||
|
|
So people should put, like, I'm going to beep
|
|||
|
|
and those letters in configuration.
|
|||
|
|
Or you're having to ping a box to tell when it's come up.
|
|||
|
|
You know, if you want to...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, because you don't know.
|
|||
|
|
If it beeps at you, when the boot letter comes up,
|
|||
|
|
and you know, okay, it's ready for you to type an input,
|
|||
|
|
because you obviously can't read the boot code,
|
|||
|
|
and it shows up on the screen unless you have a...
|
|||
|
|
Unless you have a synthesizer plugin,
|
|||
|
|
then the boot letter needs to be told
|
|||
|
|
to send its messages out to serial report,
|
|||
|
|
which is going to be useful for most people,
|
|||
|
|
and I've synthesized your structural reports.
|
|||
|
|
As a Linux user,
|
|||
|
|
as far as the number of applications
|
|||
|
|
or the size of the repos,
|
|||
|
|
or just a lot of programs that are available to you.
|
|||
|
|
It's great, because as long as it works,
|
|||
|
|
it will command what you can use it.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Which is cool, because that's the problem
|
|||
|
|
with different tool kits,
|
|||
|
|
is that different tool kits,
|
|||
|
|
do some of these different ones,
|
|||
|
|
and you have to...
|
|||
|
|
You even have to have a screen reader for each tool kit,
|
|||
|
|
or you have to have a...
|
|||
|
|
You have to have a different way of getting the information
|
|||
|
|
from all the different new tool kits,
|
|||
|
|
but there's only one way of getting info for a text console.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
There's a text console,
|
|||
|
|
there's a text console,
|
|||
|
|
there's a text console,
|
|||
|
|
and you can't really...
|
|||
|
|
I mean, it's a text.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So it's easy, but once you have a screen reader
|
|||
|
|
that can process text consoles,
|
|||
|
|
they are pretty much requisite.
|
|||
|
|
I know, you know.
|
|||
|
|
All right, let's do this.
|
|||
|
|
That's my mind, that TDE,
|
|||
|
|
that there's no...
|
|||
|
|
You should get on with that.
|
|||
|
|
You should tell her,
|
|||
|
|
why don't you keep on with the screen reader?
|
|||
|
|
Because what's your health of ideal?
|
|||
|
|
I would like to see the better one.
|
|||
|
|
You could just pick a window manager
|
|||
|
|
and one of the applications,
|
|||
|
|
and not have to care.
|
|||
|
|
Well, you could sit down in front of a computer.
|
|||
|
|
I mean...
|
|||
|
|
See how he else is, you know.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, exactly.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, there.
|
|||
|
|
What I do right now is
|
|||
|
|
I just hold my laptop everywhere,
|
|||
|
|
because, you know,
|
|||
|
|
I don't need to worry about using
|
|||
|
|
somewhere else as machine.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I might take you on their network care,
|
|||
|
|
but, you know,
|
|||
|
|
I might be a little bit out of health care,
|
|||
|
|
because most people don't want to screen your other machine.
|
|||
|
|
Ideally, it should be, like,
|
|||
|
|
something similar to the way that Apple does it,
|
|||
|
|
where, you know,
|
|||
|
|
they do a lot of things badly,
|
|||
|
|
but one thing that they get wide is that
|
|||
|
|
they include a screen review
|
|||
|
|
that works with free while everything
|
|||
|
|
in the operating system.
|
|||
|
|
And you just...
|
|||
|
|
You go up to the machine
|
|||
|
|
and you hit a keystroke
|
|||
|
|
and you get a screen review.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So, you know...
|
|||
|
|
Did Apple do it better than Windows?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So...
|
|||
|
|
I mean,
|
|||
|
|
you can just start
|
|||
|
|
with a screen review,
|
|||
|
|
or if that needed,
|
|||
|
|
when you started to help at all,
|
|||
|
|
if you have to.
|
|||
|
|
Wow.
|
|||
|
|
You can't even...
|
|||
|
|
You can't even do that at all,
|
|||
|
|
with Windows,
|
|||
|
|
once you get somebody to make you,
|
|||
|
|
like, an other candidate,
|
|||
|
|
installed this,
|
|||
|
|
can play where it goes,
|
|||
|
|
right here.
|
|||
|
|
And if you think too,
|
|||
|
|
with Windows,
|
|||
|
|
you can come with your operating system,
|
|||
|
|
so you have to pay a little extra,
|
|||
|
|
like, $1,000 to get a screen review program.
|
|||
|
|
But...
|
|||
|
|
Oh, it's just...
|
|||
|
|
And then you have to pay,
|
|||
|
|
like, maintenance fees to upgrade this.
|
|||
|
|
It's just a big mess.
|
|||
|
|
Wow.
|
|||
|
|
So...
|
|||
|
|
Are there...
|
|||
|
|
And there's no way
|
|||
|
|
that you can't hack this off-load a bit,
|
|||
|
|
so...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Are there any...
|
|||
|
|
Specialized Linux distributions,
|
|||
|
|
made specifically for...
|
|||
|
|
Sightless...
|
|||
|
|
Thank you.
|
|||
|
|
We're at one time.
|
|||
|
|
I'm not sure if they're...
|
|||
|
|
if they're discontinued.
|
|||
|
|
If they're low,
|
|||
|
|
I wouldn't use them either,
|
|||
|
|
because I think they should just
|
|||
|
|
include everybody.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Like, they shouldn't need to be
|
|||
|
|
specialized distributions.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Because it's...
|
|||
|
|
It's not discrimination term.
|
|||
|
|
I mean,
|
|||
|
|
we're not any different than you,
|
|||
|
|
anyone else.
|
|||
|
|
I just...
|
|||
|
|
I was...
|
|||
|
|
They don't work.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
So by far,
|
|||
|
|
I didn't ask to be born that way.
|
|||
|
|
So I don't want anyone thinking they need it.
|
|||
|
|
You know,
|
|||
|
|
some different device.
|
|||
|
|
What...
|
|||
|
|
I mean, all they should do
|
|||
|
|
is make some device accessible.
|
|||
|
|
But...
|
|||
|
|
Like, for instance,
|
|||
|
|
the single thing that they could do...
|
|||
|
|
is if you buy an MP3 better,
|
|||
|
|
it could have...
|
|||
|
|
It's already got a function,
|
|||
|
|
so it could beep when your battery is getting lower or something.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Instead of just flashing the light,
|
|||
|
|
it could beep when you flick it on or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
You know?
|
|||
|
|
And that's not even a major accessibility feature.
|
|||
|
|
All it would have to do is like,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
many items are usually not accurate.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Which is something that Rockbox gets right.
|
|||
|
|
They have pocket menus.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, they...
|
|||
|
|
I've tried those out.
|
|||
|
|
Which actually is kind of cooler
|
|||
|
|
because that way you can make files
|
|||
|
|
that will speak to your music files.
|
|||
|
|
I couldn't play.
|
|||
|
|
It doesn't support it, though.
|
|||
|
|
But...
|
|||
|
|
What is your current player?
|
|||
|
|
Is that a curiosity?
|
|||
|
|
Oh, I see.
|
|||
|
|
It's one of those.
|
|||
|
|
It's a creative thing.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
It was the best sounding one I could find.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
I was trying to find one of the audio you've heard once,
|
|||
|
|
but I couldn't find one.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I don't know it.
|
|||
|
|
I think they still make them in cellum,
|
|||
|
|
and I think there's a beep feature,
|
|||
|
|
but I can't make it do anything.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, I...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I've had a little fail.
|
|||
|
|
Because...
|
|||
|
|
I don't know whether I've heard you or not,
|
|||
|
|
but I'm probably...
|
|||
|
|
You may have guessed this already,
|
|||
|
|
but I'm somewhat of an audio file, so...
|
|||
|
|
Now, when you said you picked one that sounded the best, yeah?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I kind of...
|
|||
|
|
All of my music puts on my computer is in Q6 log,
|
|||
|
|
because I don't have enough disk space for flags,
|
|||
|
|
so I put it in Q6 log with this...
|
|||
|
|
from my CDs.
|
|||
|
|
I've recently bought my own version of my podcast at the Q5,
|
|||
|
|
but I don't think it helps out.
|
|||
|
|
I don't think it helps out.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I could find it easy to...
|
|||
|
|
For the way it's not critical or important.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
For music Q5 is decent,
|
|||
|
|
but Q6 is better exterior separation, basically.
|
|||
|
|
So, if you're concerned about that,
|
|||
|
|
I am, because I have an M-Audio
|
|||
|
|
that I could call it in my big box at home,
|
|||
|
|
so...
|
|||
|
|
And I got beef fed,
|
|||
|
|
but it keeps the speakers that sound pretty good.
|
|||
|
|
They're not as...
|
|||
|
|
I don't believe in buying others around,
|
|||
|
|
because I just listen to music,
|
|||
|
|
so it's having a surround sound for music,
|
|||
|
|
because there's only two channels anyway.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I'll probably exact opposite.
|
|||
|
|
I'm like an excessive personality person in some ways,
|
|||
|
|
when I was in college,
|
|||
|
|
my voice was like, I had 27 speakers.
|
|||
|
|
I think I've got...
|
|||
|
|
I think I've got...
|
|||
|
|
It's really nice to hear that sound cooler,
|
|||
|
|
because you can't hear anything except music.
|
|||
|
|
Whenever you go to those music,
|
|||
|
|
it's very loud and it's very cool.
|
|||
|
|
But there's no exterior separation.
|
|||
|
|
It doesn't help with audio quality.
|
|||
|
|
No, it not a bit.
|
|||
|
|
So, I would rather...
|
|||
|
|
You have to have a supplement,
|
|||
|
|
because the speakers are so small
|
|||
|
|
that they don't produce bass very well.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Speaking of music,
|
|||
|
|
I could talk to you for another hour,
|
|||
|
|
but then...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, you could.
|
|||
|
|
They care would kick my kids out,
|
|||
|
|
and I would get in trouble.
|
|||
|
|
But the backpacks,
|
|||
|
|
how long have you been playing those?
|
|||
|
|
Why did you start playing them?
|
|||
|
|
Because it was a difficult instrument to try,
|
|||
|
|
and I like a change.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, I thought...
|
|||
|
|
I played piano for a bit,
|
|||
|
|
and I discovered that classical...
|
|||
|
|
classical piano music sometimes,
|
|||
|
|
so for some reason,
|
|||
|
|
it has this hypnotic effect on me,
|
|||
|
|
so I just decided that,
|
|||
|
|
and I want to go to sleep.
|
|||
|
|
I don't want to actually play the music, sir.
|
|||
|
|
And, of course,
|
|||
|
|
trouble with piano and other things is that
|
|||
|
|
you get these people
|
|||
|
|
conservatively people that are...
|
|||
|
|
who would like to be obsessed,
|
|||
|
|
so I also...
|
|||
|
|
these people are obsessed with music theory,
|
|||
|
|
and they're not so interested
|
|||
|
|
in whether it sounds good,
|
|||
|
|
they're interested in whether it's
|
|||
|
|
explained exactly
|
|||
|
|
what's on the page.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And if you know anything about music,
|
|||
|
|
you don't always play exactly
|
|||
|
|
what's written,
|
|||
|
|
because you're interested
|
|||
|
|
in playing about, you know,
|
|||
|
|
whatever kind of music you're dealing with,
|
|||
|
|
which means that you might have to add some expression,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
whatever,
|
|||
|
|
or the note,
|
|||
|
|
a little longer than it was written,
|
|||
|
|
so...
|
|||
|
|
So,
|
|||
|
|
everybody gets to tell you how to play the music.
|
|||
|
|
Everybody memorizes the music,
|
|||
|
|
so, because you can't
|
|||
|
|
work a music stand to a bagpipe.
|
|||
|
|
Everybody here memorize the music,
|
|||
|
|
whatever instrument they're playing,
|
|||
|
|
but with the bagpipe,
|
|||
|
|
which required.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Because, so...
|
|||
|
|
And if it's just a new musical,
|
|||
|
|
it's insanely difficult to play,
|
|||
|
|
or I like that.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Because,
|
|||
|
|
just when you think you've got it right now,
|
|||
|
|
it's like,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
it's like,
|
|||
|
|
you know,
|
|||
|
|
because,
|
|||
|
|
just when you think you've got it right,
|
|||
|
|
you haven't.
|
|||
|
|
You need to go like,
|
|||
|
|
try it again.
|
|||
|
|
Which means,
|
|||
|
|
there's only something you
|
|||
|
|
should experiment with,
|
|||
|
|
play with, or whatever.
|
|||
|
|
But that said,
|
|||
|
|
I mean,
|
|||
|
|
if it makes some sort of sound
|
|||
|
|
that could possibly be turned into music,
|
|||
|
|
I would be interested in playing it.
|
|||
|
|
Now,
|
|||
|
|
what kind of music do you enjoy listening to?
|
|||
|
|
I mean, I would guess a large variety,
|
|||
|
|
but...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, pretty much everything.
|
|||
|
|
Except that I don't consider...
|
|||
|
|
I think that,
|
|||
|
|
that rap should just have a
|
|||
|
|
see-up at the beginning,
|
|||
|
|
and...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, you know.
|
|||
|
|
Because I don't actually...
|
|||
|
|
I mean,
|
|||
|
|
my way of saying that
|
|||
|
|
is an art form
|
|||
|
|
that it's definitely not music.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And I don't like
|
|||
|
|
your pop-type stuff
|
|||
|
|
for the same reason,
|
|||
|
|
because basically,
|
|||
|
|
rap pet things
|
|||
|
|
with a different drum machine,
|
|||
|
|
and some extra synthesizers
|
|||
|
|
that are wasting
|
|||
|
|
computer memory drastically.
|
|||
|
|
I mean,
|
|||
|
|
if I would do something
|
|||
|
|
creative with the synthesizers,
|
|||
|
|
but every time you hear them,
|
|||
|
|
it's always
|
|||
|
|
this continuous music group.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That's the best piece
|
|||
|
|
of rap music I've ever heard
|
|||
|
|
in my entire life.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know if you'd call it
|
|||
|
|
rap or not,
|
|||
|
|
but I think it was...
|
|||
|
|
whatever name he was
|
|||
|
|
choosing to use at the time,
|
|||
|
|
Sean Puff,
|
|||
|
|
Eddie Combs.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I saw it on Saturday Night Live,
|
|||
|
|
and it was a Jimmy Page
|
|||
|
|
and a orchestra
|
|||
|
|
doing cashmere
|
|||
|
|
with...
|
|||
|
|
Oh, really?
|
|||
|
|
...with Sean Puff,
|
|||
|
|
Eddie Combs,
|
|||
|
|
with alternate lyrics
|
|||
|
|
that he was...
|
|||
|
|
Are you three?
|
|||
|
|
Yes, I am.
|
|||
|
|
I'm trying to...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That would have been rude.
|
|||
|
|
I was great.
|
|||
|
|
It was this really aggressive
|
|||
|
|
anger.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I think that song
|
|||
|
|
has got a bunch of cool
|
|||
|
|
guitar stuff.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Let me page this.
|
|||
|
|
You could listen to it.
|
|||
|
|
I actually had somebody...
|
|||
|
|
What the heck was it?
|
|||
|
|
They got it.
|
|||
|
|
They got it all.
|
|||
|
|
It was just a bunch of
|
|||
|
|
guitar stuff that my friend had.
|
|||
|
|
And it was like...
|
|||
|
|
Jimmy Page
|
|||
|
|
and Jeff Beck
|
|||
|
|
and Eric Clapton
|
|||
|
|
doing guitar stuff.
|
|||
|
|
How many?
|
|||
|
|
And it was all like...
|
|||
|
|
On the same album.
|
|||
|
|
And then it was...
|
|||
|
|
It was just a bunch of guitar
|
|||
|
|
instrumental stuff.
|
|||
|
|
It was...
|
|||
|
|
It was crazy, man.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I think the best part of that song,
|
|||
|
|
the Jimmy Page
|
|||
|
|
Sean Puff,
|
|||
|
|
Eddie Combsong, was the drums.
|
|||
|
|
I...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, you...
|
|||
|
|
Who is who is drummer?
|
|||
|
|
Who is the drummer?
|
|||
|
|
Sean Ballon,
|
|||
|
|
and...
|
|||
|
|
I don't think it's...
|
|||
|
|
He may have been.
|
|||
|
|
I'm not sure.
|
|||
|
|
But...
|
|||
|
|
I find that a...
|
|||
|
|
A link or a record...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
First of all,
|
|||
|
|
I'd like to read that.
|
|||
|
|
I've got it.
|
|||
|
|
You're like...
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
I've been going to listen
|
|||
|
|
to pre-roll everything.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And I hear that.
|
|||
|
|
Weird.
|
|||
|
|
Because I usually just put
|
|||
|
|
everything on the land.
|
|||
|
|
Like...
|
|||
|
|
Yes.
|
|||
|
|
That's how I think.
|
|||
|
|
Here.
|
|||
|
|
Here's a bunch of music.
|
|||
|
|
It can be a shuffle.
|
|||
|
|
So basically,
|
|||
|
|
what you end up getting is...
|
|||
|
|
You get stuff like...
|
|||
|
|
You get to play some pink
|
|||
|
|
flake thing.
|
|||
|
|
You get to play some bagpipes.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Did you get to play some bagpipes?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Did you get to play some bagpipes?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Did you get to play some bagpipes?
|
|||
|
|
Did you get to play some bagpipes?
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
One music collection
|
|||
|
|
sort of all over the world.
|
|||
|
|
I like...
|
|||
|
|
They're like radio pair
|
|||
|
|
that is for that reason.
|
|||
|
|
Because they play
|
|||
|
|
a bit of everything.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
A bit of everything.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
They do.
|
|||
|
|
They're like they have
|
|||
|
|
version radio classic rock
|
|||
|
|
string,
|
|||
|
|
because it's all like
|
|||
|
|
Q5 rock streaming.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And I just want like stream
|
|||
|
|
ripper.
|
|||
|
|
I can fire up my
|
|||
|
|
radio pair that.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That's cool.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know.
|
|||
|
|
I've gotten all of it.
|
|||
|
|
So it's coming on.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yep.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That's it.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You don't want to be
|
|||
|
|
kind of learning.
|
|||
|
|
You want to be kind of
|
|||
|
|
doing a bit of stuff.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Or the other way around
|
|||
|
|
it sounds like call.
|
|||
|
|
I think that's it.
|
|||
|
|
Down.
|
|||
|
|
Good day.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
I thought you were talking
|
|||
|
|
to me for a second.
|
|||
|
|
No.
|
|||
|
|
I was telling you it's
|
|||
|
|
too.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
It's telling you it's
|
|||
|
|
too.
|
|||
|
|
It's telling me it's
|
|||
|
|
too.
|
|||
|
|
It's showing me it's
|
|||
|
|
just sitting on the floor.
|
|||
|
|
It's your down.
|
|||
|
|
Is he, and gotten used to it?
|
|||
|
|
No, he has.
|
|||
|
|
I don't defend you in recording it when I get back.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, go ahead. I need to go forward. I need to go forward.
|
|||
|
|
I need to go forward. I need to go forward. I need to go forward.
|
|||
|
|
You got any good recommendations?
|
|||
|
|
No, I don't have a, I don't have that USB one
|
|||
|
|
that I was talking to you on the, um,
|
|||
|
|
I mean, um, just a good,
|
|||
|
|
but I don't have a good speaker. I don't have a good speaker.
|
|||
|
|
A good cheap microphone. It's for vocal. I don't know about it.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, yeah. It's the Shore P38,
|
|||
|
|
or I probably get the number wrong.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. But I'm going to have,
|
|||
|
|
because when you don't speed,
|
|||
|
|
you're taking a speed one,
|
|||
|
|
there's good for like voice stuff.
|
|||
|
|
But anything over about five feet away,
|
|||
|
|
it starts to drop off,
|
|||
|
|
and call it pretty good.
|
|||
|
|
If you can send me something,
|
|||
|
|
you don't mind people here, and I'll put it at the end of this podcast.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, yeah, I'll do that. I can't do it next.
|
|||
|
|
I don't have that bagpipe here.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. That's fine. I mean, I,
|
|||
|
|
when I get back, I can send you a record.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. You said, man, I'll make it into this podcast.
|
|||
|
|
You may make it into the next segment.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. Broadcast, more play,
|
|||
|
|
more than that, if you want.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. So, David, I didn't record my practice anyways.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. So, I'm going to raise the call
|
|||
|
|
whether you suck it up.
|
|||
|
|
Listen to it again.
|
|||
|
|
Well, sometimes,
|
|||
|
|
with my case in podcast,
|
|||
|
|
it hasn't helped me any.
|
|||
|
|
No.
|
|||
|
|
But I'm going to have to go now,
|
|||
|
|
but I want to make a podcast.
|
|||
|
|
Yes, you should.
|
|||
|
|
I don't know what the podcast is about though.
|
|||
|
|
If you have to just say random,
|
|||
|
|
whatever your podcast.
|
|||
|
|
I would listen.
|
|||
|
|
I would listen to anything.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I wouldn't listen to just about anything, too.
|
|||
|
|
So, I wouldn't listen to anything.
|
|||
|
|
It was anything. I have to go now.
|
|||
|
|
But was there anything that I should have asked you that I didn't?
|
|||
|
|
I think you covered it pretty well.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
So, yeah, we'll have to see.
|
|||
|
|
Let's see what kind of comments you get.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah. I'm about to head you on again.
|
|||
|
|
I don't think I've said that to anybody yet.
|
|||
|
|
I think I could talk to you.
|
|||
|
|
Anytime. Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Anytime. That's perfectly acceptable.
|
|||
|
|
I could work at my,
|
|||
|
|
I could work at my issues though.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, the whole, the whole Canada.
|
|||
|
|
I think it means I see.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I think that the,
|
|||
|
|
I think that the talks you stuff.
|
|||
|
|
I mean, that's working eventually.
|
|||
|
|
Okay. That I couldn't talk to,
|
|||
|
|
that's your name,
|
|||
|
|
that's your name, that's your excursion.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
That's your excursion. I haven't played with that yet.
|
|||
|
|
So, I have to. Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And that's something I need to keep doing.
|
|||
|
|
So, with that,
|
|||
|
|
see what we can get to work.
|
|||
|
|
Shouldn't be too difficult,
|
|||
|
|
but we're going to see how far we get with that.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I should go right to ask you some microphone.
|
|||
|
|
I found some decent headphones.
|
|||
|
|
So, again, I'm going to find a decent microphone.
|
|||
|
|
I got me some,
|
|||
|
|
I can't say it.
|
|||
|
|
Sandhouser is the German.
|
|||
|
|
Cool. Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Those are good.
|
|||
|
|
And because you both are really uncomfortable,
|
|||
|
|
if you were them for long periods.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah. And I don't want them for more than an hour,
|
|||
|
|
but I'm going to come on the lawnmower,
|
|||
|
|
because they,
|
|||
|
|
well, you're right.
|
|||
|
|
They're uncomfortable,
|
|||
|
|
if you're not the one for a four-hour flight.
|
|||
|
|
You know, the,
|
|||
|
|
in flight editing,
|
|||
|
|
the system starts.
|
|||
|
|
Oh, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
You have to, you know.
|
|||
|
|
So, I got these,
|
|||
|
|
these headphones that are,
|
|||
|
|
they just kind of clip onto the back of your ear.
|
|||
|
|
Well, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
And they just sit on top of your ear,
|
|||
|
|
which is nice,
|
|||
|
|
because they don't squish your ear.
|
|||
|
|
I don't like that you're a couple.
|
|||
|
|
You don't squish your ear.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Because those aren't very fun.
|
|||
|
|
David, I'm sorry,
|
|||
|
|
but I'm going to have to go.
|
|||
|
|
I actually got a 10-year-old daughter
|
|||
|
|
outside the window of my car.
|
|||
|
|
All right.
|
|||
|
|
All right.
|
|||
|
|
All right.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Well, you can,
|
|||
|
|
you got a big slice of podcast
|
|||
|
|
recording,
|
|||
|
|
and if people want to listen to my crummy voice
|
|||
|
|
for another hour and a half,
|
|||
|
|
they can do that.
|
|||
|
|
That's fine.
|
|||
|
|
This, this was very interesting
|
|||
|
|
and fascinating,
|
|||
|
|
and I thank you for your time, David.
|
|||
|
|
No problem.
|
|||
|
|
Very true.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
We'll talk to you in the RFC.
|
|||
|
|
Okay, sure.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Please.
|
|||
|
|
You may as well tell people
|
|||
|
|
what my mixer,
|
|||
|
|
what I asked you is in case they
|
|||
|
|
run a murder of the actresses.
|
|||
|
|
Is it?
|
|||
|
|
Is it you?
|
|||
|
|
Do you pronounce it kajari?
|
|||
|
|
I have no idea.
|
|||
|
|
I go from the random name generation.
|
|||
|
|
A.A.J.A.R.R.I.
|
|||
|
|
All right.
|
|||
|
|
R-I-R-R-R-I.
|
|||
|
|
K.A.B.A.A.R.J.A.R.R.A.R.R.
|
|||
|
|
K-A-B-A-A-A-A-R-I-R.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Don't ask me how to pronounce it.
|
|||
|
|
I was tired of having people take my nickname on RSC, so I was just like, okay.
|
|||
|
|
You did keep down the land and you nick it, and we just go, we're just going to get
|
|||
|
|
a random name generator and change a couple of good letters and ask you to add it through.
|
|||
|
|
Okay.
|
|||
|
|
Well, I thought you'd ask it.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Make sure you're with me still work.
|
|||
|
|
I know it.
|
|||
|
|
I know it.
|
|||
|
|
I know it.
|
|||
|
|
I know it.
|
|||
|
|
I know it.
|
|||
|
|
Sorry.
|
|||
|
|
I didn't have to back you back.
|
|||
|
|
No problem.
|
|||
|
|
You're probably going to make me say that that would eventually bounce to you.
|
|||
|
|
This is maybe the first time you said it.
|
|||
|
|
I love to hear Canadians say that.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, because you can't do it.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah, I know I can't.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't do it.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't do it.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't do it.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't.
|
|||
|
|
No, you can't.
|
|||
|
|
I'm really pretty<74> as to you.
|
|||
|
|
No,겠 people, yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Those people survive their trial.
|
|||
|
|
Yes?
|
|||
|
|
Yes.
|
|||
|
|
I got you.
|
|||
|
|
You can get up here.
|
|||
|
|
Anyway.
|
|||
|
|
I'll catch you later.
|
|||
|
|
David, thanks a lot.
|
|||
|
|
Yeah.
|
|||
|
|
Thank you very much.
|
|||
|
|
Thanks a lot.
|
|||
|
|
Okay, I'll see you later.
|
|||
|
|
Like I said.
|
|||
|
|
Goodbye.
|
|||
|
|
See you there.
|
|||
|
|
Thanks for watching the Hack of learned Radio.
|
|||
|
|
HBO was sponsored by Battle Dotnet.
|
|||
|
|
So had on over to see AARO dot anything more on theplet Thanks for showing us.
|
|||
|
|
That's all it requires
|
|||
|
|
.
|