hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr1309.txt

Episode: 1309
Title: HPR1309: Assisted Human Reproduction
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1309/hpr1309.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-17 23:24:14

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Hi everybody, my name is Ken Fallon and you're listening to Hacker Public Radio.
Today's episode is going to be dealing with topics of a fairly adult nature, so if you've
got miners that you don't want to listen to that sort of stuff you might want to give
this listen to see if it's appropriate or not.
Hi everybody, my name is Ken Fallon and I'd just like to reiterate the warning from
the beginning of the episode that today we will be dealing with topics of a fairly adult
nature, not to say we're going to be using the effort, although usually in my podcast
it comes out, so be prepared for that as well.
Today I'm going to be interviewing somebody who you know who's actually been on more shows
than anybody else because she's largely the outro voice of HPR and it is my wife how
you do.
I'm fine, thank you.
So what was us, we've been planning this episode for about two years, so the reason we're
doing it now, particularly because it's very, very hot, is because we're low on shows.
So if you've got shows in the queue, just put something together very quick, we need shows,
we need shows more importantly than we need masterpieces, so send in your show and you
can always improve in your next show.
So today we're going to be talking about surrogacy.
Can you just tell the listeners what surrogacy is before we start?
Surrogacy is where generally a couple need somebody to carry their child for them, they basically
need a woman with a womb where the baby can live for nine months.
Okay, and your part in this was somebody looking for it or somebody being?
I offered to be a surrogate for a friend of ours.
And you did this because you wanted to make loads and loads of money, no doubt?
No, that's illegal in Europe.
You're not allowed to have any financial, exactly.
Yeah, not all.
So it's actually, it's kind of odd because you have, in the Netherlands, you can rent out,
a lady can rent out her private parts on a short-term basis and that is perfectly legal.
Whereas renting out your womb for nine months is not, and in the States, it's perfectly legal
to rent out your womb and they also have, you can put in more embryos and up to however
you want, so different rules in different places.
So we're going to do, so back to the original question, what was your motivation for doing
this in the first place?
Well, that goes back to our own situation.
Basically, we wanted our children and...
But you didn't always want to have children apparently?
I didn't know, no, no.
I wasn't going to get married and I wasn't going to have any children, no, until I met
you.
Did he?
Did he?
And that.
Yeah, exactly.
You silly woman.
Yeah, I don't know what came over me, but anyway, it's don't know, you know, we're married
and everything.
So...
But anyway, it turned out.
Yeah, that we had trouble conceiving.
And this didn't actually come as a surprise to me because there's a history of infertility
in our family, so as it turns out, I have a very little sperm count.
And even some of my brothers have also had trouble and they went down the adoption route,
whereas we went down the...
Well, they went down the IVF route as well, and we went down the IVF route as well.
So let's talk about that.
First of all, it was a trial period for about, was it two years when we were trying every
method under the sun.
Yes.
So, tell us what we tried.
Well, I don't know, do you think the temperature stuff that will slowly get your cycle
right?
Yeah, exactly.
I tease all the vitamins C to try and get my thingy up.
Yeah, exactly.
Sperm count-up of vitamin C apparently, after six months, it starts happening in effect
with your sperm count.
Yeah, but it turned out it didn't.
And also doing the temperature thing to see when your eggs are ready, basically.
And while it might seem like a good comedic thing to do, and it's been done in a few
movies, you know, come home now, you need to come home now.
It's more like you've got two days in which to have sexual intercourse.
And it is just that, it is sexual intercourse.
It's not shagging, it's not making you love.
It's come home, put your pillow underneath your ties, then you have to keep your pelvis
up after all.
It's very scientific.
Yes, it's like you scientifically remove all the romance from it and it becomes a bit
of a chore.
Well, we got through that.
We did, thankfully.
Yes, not fun memories though of the nookie at that particular point in time, I must say.
There you go.
That is it.
But during that period of time, we did notice lots of stuff, lots of people pregnant and
it became a joke, not a funny joke, but the desire to have children and how.
Yes, it was very difficult.
It became very difficult because you start noticing, basically, everything, everywhere,
like ads, all the ads, had somebody who was pregnant or it was about children or babies.
And then you turn on something like Arnold Schwarzenegger and you got kindergarten cup.
You turn the channel and it's like some other action movie and the guy pushes a baby
out, you know, a prom, I was just the way at the car and then you start getting a little
bit paranoid.
Yes, and everywhere in the street or colleagues or when they're joking about, oh, you
know, it's, it was so quick and easy or whatever and you just feel really wrong.
And there's lots of stuff that people say and I know the mean well as well, but it doesn't
help.
Yeah, just when you take a baby, for example, you know, like they say that here in the Netherlands
anyway, that, oh, you get married and then you get to baby or you take a baby, like,
you know, it's so it's something that you have sex and choose to be pregnant by what
it is.
Yeah, people just don't think.
But also there's the, you know, you say, oh, we're trying to have a baby and then they
go, oh, don't worry about it.
I have had a friend and they were trying for ages.
Then they had four kids, yeah, well, thanks.
That was their situation.
It wasn't, it wasn't really a, you know, it doesn't work like that always.
So.
But and then we have the whole concept of our friend Hope, who continues to raise her
ugly head.
Yeah.
I don't.
Yeah.
Hope is very difficult because you don't want to hope every month, but you do.
Yeah.
And you only notice that you really had high hopes for this month when you get your
period and think, oh, this hasn't worked out and you really feel.
Yeah.
And also, you're saying that, but I also had that feeling like, yeah, I wouldn't say
anything to you and you wouldn't say anything and we kind of smile over breakfast and,
you know, it's been one day over and then it's two days over and you kind of gone.
And then the next thing you're reaching for bar chocolate and, yeah.
And then your hopes are dashed again for another month or so.
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, but part of the standard IVF treatment process, anyway, is that you
have to go through those two years of trying to get through.
Generally, yes.
Yeah.
Well, two years, I don't know the exact amount, but you have to have done, there are certain
steps that you have to have done, like the temperature, you know, taking the temperature
and all that and the certain things that you do.
And once that hasn't worked for a period of time, you move to the next thing.
Period of time.
Yeah.
So, I don't know.
And automatically show you that at the, at the deep end, you usually do the turkey
bastard thing.
Where?
Yeah.
They basically, they always start with when you go to the IVF clinic, they, well, it depends
on your situation, of course.
But if there's no particular reason why you couldn't conceive naturally, they just do
the artificial insemination first, which is.
Or six, six times.
Yeah.
Which is to take the male sperm out and then physically place it in, in the correct position
within the womb.
Yeah.
Targeted straight in on the floppy tube, that is ripe.
Yeah.
So, there's no way any eggs come and down could miss this wall of, that's the idea.
Yeah, that's basically the plan.
And then right at the end of that spectrum, you have IVF where they take the eggs out of
the womb and put them into a petri dish along with the sperm, and then at the very end.
And just hope that they'll turn into embryos.
Yeah.
You know, and then.
And that's quite a lot.
Yeah.
And then at the end, you wanted to say the ICSI.
Yeah.
And that's the typical one when people see IVF on, you know, the, the clips and the movies,
you see the egg and the, the injection, you know, the needle going in.
That's the actual procedure where you intravenous, the ICSI, I don't know, I actually don't know.
Yeah.
Exactly.
A link to the Sherlock's, folks.
Anyway, yes, they, they take one sperm cell, the, the very best sperm cell they can find,
the liveliest one, or they do, and they inject it into the...
Pick me!
Pick me!
Yeah.
So, it's intra-cyto-plasmic sperm injection, curfewing, so, in the wiki video.
So anyway, our situation was that...
We went in for a consultation and then...
We went into the GP, we told him what we had already done.
And he said, well, just go to the IVF clinic because you've done everything that you
possibly could.
So we went to the IVF clinic and we done the artificial insemination.
I think the, the, the medicine artificial insemination, but they, I really got the feeling
they didn't have any fate and that that was good.
Well, after three goals instead of six, that's when they, they stopped it.
They said, look, guys, this is not going to work for you.
Not going to work.
We're going to skip IVF and immediately go to ICSI, which wasn't a very pleasant bit of
information for us because after ICSI, you get, in the Netherlands, you get three goals
through your basic health insurance and everybody has health insurance, it's a part
of the law that you have to have.
So the way it works is you, I think all the hospitals are private, but everybody has health
insurance.
So you're, you're required by law to have basic health insurance and you can have more
than that if you wish, you know, if you want to get a helicopter back, if you break your
leg and the ski slope, that sort of stuff.
And the number of glasses that you can get and whatever, so there's different packages.
If you can't afford it or you're unemployed or whatever, then the state will pay it for
you.
And also, anybody up to the age of 18, if you go straight into work or 23 or 24, if
you're going to university, gets a bit for free by the government.
So, but as part of that, you are allowed three chances at fertility treatments.
So, yeah, three successful ones.
Successful ones.
So if you have a baby on the turd go, then you get three chances and then if you get
a baby on the turd, and you get another three chances on, I don't know about that, but
yeah, they, yeah, basically it works like that.
So a bit of a shock, I must say, from myself, I was in a business, because, and the reason
for that is, if the cycle, the procedure for doing an ICSI is about three months.
So, let's say four, three fours is 12.
So you do it three times a year.
So that meant that as soon as we heard that news, and we were, it meant that we could
be childless.
But we knew that we could have the, the news that it didn't work out and that was it.
By the end of within 12 months, I mean, you could, we could have saved up and we could
have continued to do the ICSI, but we always said, well, we try that three times and, you
know, if three times seems like a reasonable number, some people, some people continue on
on.
Yes, to do and on and on.
Yes.
And sometimes it works and then sometimes it doesn't, but, you know, you just, you know,
what do you say to those people, you know, give up hope and, you know, get a dog as the
advice was given to us.
Yeah.
And some people do.
Yeah.
But, or, but basically after that, you can still adopt, if, if, you know, if that's what
you want, not everybody wants that, but also there's an age limit, it's an age limit
with IVF and there's an age limit with adoption.
And you can do both at the same time.
And you can't do both at the same time.
So you really, we felt we had to make a plan.
Yeah.
And that really moved everything up because we thought, okay, well, we'll have six goals
at one thing and we'll have three goals at the regular IVF and then three goals at the
ICSI.
If that happens, that puts us three or four years down the line and then we stop that
and then we do the adoption thing.
But then all of a sudden, boom, we know this, this day next year, we may not, we may
have to realize that we never have a child and then do we look for a sperm donor and try
and have a child, you know, that, with another biological father, which I was given
a serious consideration to and then do we, you know, it's just a bit of a bit of a shock.
I felt, yeah, we had to adjust to that bit of news.
So anyway, what happened?
What happened was that, well, we, of course, started the procedure at ICSI and...
The IVF clinic itself, it's, what, sorry, for interrupting with the way they do it in
the Netherlands is they, oh, the IVF clinic is in the local hospital, which wasn't that
far away and it's kind of a part from the rest of the other hospital as well.
I always felt it's like, shame, shame, these are the shameful people down here.
But maybe, maybe it wasn't.
I always had the feeling that it was more private, that it, that not everybody had to see your
troubles.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Well, weird.
Yeah.
Well, the IVF team is, okay, there is brilliant.
Great.
Yeah.
Anyway, yes, the local IVF team, they work closely together with the IVF team, they
work closely together with the IVF hospital, that is far away.
There's a few of them in the Netherlands.
So for the Amsterdam region, all the, all the local hospitals around Amsterdam, send
their patients to, to the, the, the, the, the, the, you, the folks, university, no?
Uh, no, the, Google, oh, yeah, anyway, um, what were we trying to say?
Fry university.
Yeah.
In the Netherlands.
No, you need to, no, that's not, that's not it.
Anyway, coming back to, uh, exactly, yes, what were we talking about?
The local IVF.
The local IVF.
The local IVF.
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The local IVF
You also need to inject yourself in the tummy with that pen thing.
You need to really like blood a lot.
Well, blood is OK.
Yeah, putting your legs in the stirrups every time.
Yes, yes.
I don't know how many people look at your private parts.
I remember we...
You just have to switch.
Yeah, to just basically let it happen.
And just don't think anything of it.
And it's kind of funny because we'll get to the UK.
In the UK, there was...
They put a gown over your legs and then she...
The doctor more or less go into a little tunnel underneath where like...
There's the light at the end of the tunnel type thing.
Whereas in the Netherlands it's like feet and stirrups,
the room is a little bit dark and we'll pull the curtain over on the first visit.
But by the time you've done all the visits it's like...
Do you want to come in?
Yeah, no, fine.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so it's...
But you get over that.
For that procedure, I remember I was counting that 23 different people had...
Had senior privates during the course of the first procedure.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, we went through all that and...
You needed to get your cycle in order.
Yeah.
You need to...
First day...
Yeah, your cycle needs to be in order.
Then they have to...
You get drugs so that you...
You will grow more follicles, more eggs than normal and basically they have to be...
Excited and matured?
Yeah, maximum potential basically.
And then everything has to be stopped because they have to...
They have to wait for the moment until they can be harvested and all that kind of thing.
So it's a very long...
Drawing out procedure.
And then you need to...
Normally, you don't release one at a particular time and then they release...
Give you drugs to release all of them at the...
Or to make them ready to come out.
Yeah, to make them ready to come out but they...
They mustn't come out.
Yeah, because otherwise...
Stop them coming out.
Yeah, exactly.
So anyway, yeah, that all happened and...
We got harvest of...
Which the harvest itself is not very pleasant.
You had a volume.
I thought it was in the room.
Half a volume and it was...
Enough to make you feel one keep.
It was not enough to dull and entertain you.
Yeah, exactly.
I felt everything but it meant me to feel really nauseous.
So anyway, it doesn't matter.
But they go with the needle through your...
What is it?
To get your...
To get your...
Your follicles to get your eggs from one side and then they...
Go through the...
You extract again with the needle to get them from the other side.
Yes, and as they're doing that, they're rummaging around.
Yeah, they're rummaging around because they have to locate...
Because they do it with an echo.
And then what do you call it a scan?
Ultrasound.
Ultrasound and...
So they have to rummage around a bit to find it and...
They know from the scans how many it is going to be and then they're doing it and then things move around.
And they have to find them and...
And then there's like leading all sorts of stuff going on inside because of that.
Anyway, how many was there on the end?
24.
That's a very large amount.
Yeah.
That's not very...
Not usually.
Well, we were very happy about that.
We were very happy about that.
It kind of proves you were in perfect working order and...
But...
Which in itself, actually, I know that...
I personally felt guilty about that.
But it would probably be worse and we know a lot of couples as well that just didn't have kids.
And they checked everybody out.
His sperm is fine.
Her philopian tubes are fine.
Everything's fine.
And yet...
Nothing happens and they've tried everything.
And still nothing happens.
And they're at the end of the road and nothing happens.
So, you know, in that case, you don't...
What?
You just don't know.
No, what the reason was.
But tell us about the room.
Oh, yes.
Before we go there.
In the Netherlands, this tradition, that when babies are born, you send a birth card around.
Yeah.
And of course, people who do IVF naturally send a birth card.
You always send it to your midwife and your local doctor.
But you...
They also send it to the IVF clinic.
And it was really nice when we were waiting there to browse through those things.
But then again...
The booklets, the...
Yeah, you put them into an A4...
Binder.
Leaver Archfolder.
And you can browse through them and you kind of go, maybe we will have these.
And if we have them, we'll have that design and that sort of stuff.
But, otherwise, the place is completely sterile of, you know, any smiling...
Yeah.
...kids rather than anything.
But then the room where...
To do the harvesting.
Well, did they do the harvesting there?
No, I had to rest afterwards.
And I went to that room and that room is full with photos.
Photos of babies born through the IVF clinic there.
Yes.
It is just the best room in the world, really.
Yeah.
Because...
Like everyone is going, yeah, well done.
You know, we can't help you.
Yeah.
Keep your whole up.
There you go again.
Hope you get the room.
Yeah, yeah.
Just thicken fingers into everything.
So, meanwhile, oh yeah, we've got my...
What, meanwhile, you were injecting yourself with...
With all the drugs.
All the drugs.
...had a whole cupboard full of stuff to take and continue to take afterwards.
I had the extraction process, which happened in Amsterdam.
And as we were filling out this forum, this guy comes in and nods at you one.
She gives him a cup.
He goes down.
Like, you must be there literally five seconds.
Comes back out, puts down the cup with the barcode thing on it.
And then leaves.
How did he possibly do that?
Was he primed in the car or whatever?
And then, I realized why...
Was they remember the porn that was on?
You know, you think in the Netherlands, like with a thriving sex industry.
Big tourist attraction that they could come up with better porn than there was, like...
It was a scene from the camp camp.
It was literally the camp camp.
Ladies all completely dressed with the flurry...
With the flower things on the head.
I had battle.
I don't wish.
You know, those legs.
Thankfully, you were on the hand of the end of the house.
Anyways, got over that.
And then, you had your extraction.
They put the eggs into a lunchbox tank,
which had a freezer on it, like a fridge compartment.
And I had to plug it in and then drive the whole way up to Amsterdam.
And, you know, then you drive into the IVF clinic,
which, of course, is away from the main hospital.
And you're allowed to park, like anywhere, there's a special place.
And you're allowed to block people in and all the rest of it.
And just hand in the stuff.
I run in, hand it in, and they go, okay, thanks.
Okay, bye.
How'd you go?
And then what happens?
Weight.
Yes.
Right.
Well, a couple of days, because they need to inject all the eggs.
They first have to see how the eggs are doing.
We got the news that from the 24 eggs,
18 were big enough, well enough to be injected.
And then they go inject the sperm cell,
you know, a sperm cell into the egg cell for all 18.
And from the 18, there were six embryos.
Wow, pretty impressive.
So, we put all six back, no doubt.
That's not loud.
At the time you were allowed to put back two at the moment.
Now, since last year, you're allowed to put back one at a time.
So, we had two put back, and we thought,
okay, the other four will be frozen balls.
We got the news that, because they, the way to see how they develop.
To last a stage.
Yeah.
And only two were good enough to be frozen,
because it's, they have to be really strong, so to say,
because once they're frozen and you defrost them again,
they deteriorate, regardless.
They do.
So, a lot of them don't make it.
But we skipped over the translate back thing.
Oh, yes, yes.
So, like when we went into the, into the waiting room for a start,
there was this, there was our, well,
she was an IVF person, but she was the doctor that we had,
had dealings with.
And she said, is it okay if this intern comes with us?
And like, I could best describe her as a little butterfly on.
Oh, you're well excited.
Oh, this is brilliant.
She's like bouncing off the walls.
This is her first time here, and it was like,
yeah, there was, you didn't have to deal with death and pain.
Like, this was something nice, you know,
there's something coming into the world.
And on the screen, and pity I never got a picture of it,
was like a picture of this clump, two clumps of cells,
you know, right after the BBC documentary.
So, then they go, okay, we're going to start now.
I'm going to do the transfer.
And this thing zooms out, and these cells are sitting in like,
what's like a massive big shovel.
And then they zoom out more, and you see that,
oh, it's a tin needle thing.
And they zoom out more.
And that tin needle thing is actually a tube inside the actual needle,
which is about the size of a boss.
And they zoom out more and more and more and more and more.
And eventually, you see this tiny little needle that they come out,
which they put into another needle holder,
because it's just the whole thing is so tiny.
Yeah.
And then, yeah.
And then they come out, and he was like very, very,
very on the ball, you know,
tons like a soldier coming out holding this very serious,
hands it over to the doctor, gets her to sign the thing,
takes it back, transfers, turnaround,
so that he wouldn't look at your privates.
I didn't care at that stage, I mean.
Yeah, exactly.
One more or less, who cares?
Then the transplant is done.
And then what do we have to do?
Go home and wait.
And?
Wait and wait and wait, and hope and hope and hope.
Yeah.
Of course.
And what happened?
And what happened?
Well, my husband has a gift.
Yes.
It's my superpower.
Yes.
Absolutely.
I can tell when women are pregnant freely early on.
Of course, that's kind of non-marketable really,
but there you are.
But anyway, I knew you were pregnant,
and then you also fell pregnant.
Yes.
But it's very early to say, you know.
I didn't dare home for anything.
But I had noticed your gift before.
Yes.
I've been right before.
Yeah, you were very right before.
Where I said, well, no, you can't see anything yet.
Yeah.
So anyway, we hoped, and luckily, we were pregnant.
Yes.
And we didn't know at the stage whether it was one or two,
because it would have been two or two.
No, no.
Exactly.
So, of course, just because your Mr. Period wasn't enough,
and then we had the blue test thing, you know,
the Pidelon test things, which we kept.
Yeah.
Which was kind of nice.
And kind of weird for you.
This is my first time.
Okay, yeah.
It's got a smiley face.
The ones now don't.
They're like a digital readout, and it disappears.
Yeah.
What kind of stuff?
Exactly.
But then again, probably people don't keep things
at the Pidelon test.
Yeah, probably.
But it's a nice smiley face.
Anyway, it's a smiley face.
That's the point.
But that's not enough.
You need still need to go down and get the blood test done.
Yes.
Exactly.
To make sure.
Yeah.
And then, of course, you're like a happy little bunny,
and then all your...
All the relations know that you've had this procedure,
because...
Yeah.
So everybody knows.
And you're not going to say it.
Very early age.
Early stage.
Yeah.
And some of them go and tell other people.
Without...
But anyway.
Anyway.
Anyway.
Everybody's very happy.
Everybody's very excited about it.
That's good.
Yeah.
And then it's...
What the weird thing is, then it becomes...
You tell the IVF clinic and they go,
Oh, thanks very much.
And that's...
Yeah.
No, not really.
Because they have a scan.
Yeah, they do.
The very first scan after...
It's an eight-week scan, which is not very...
Common.
Common.
It's not usually done.
But they just check with eight weeks,
because the first 12 weeks are still very precarious.
So they basically tell you then,
whether it's one or two or...
Yeah.
Whether everything looks okay or not.
And then they basically say, yeah, everything looks fine.
Okay.
So you can go to the regular midwife and...
That's funny.
You went to the midwife and she goes,
How long are you pregnant?
You know, so you could do the calculation.
I'm pregnant like eight weeks, four hours, 22 days.
Yeah.
Really, exactly, obviously.
But then it becomes just a regular pregnancy after all that.
Yeah.
And you still have...
Yeah, but you also still have the...
All the risks that you have with a regular pregnancy.
Yeah.
That you, you know, are promising to...
And you're more aware of it.
Yeah.
Well, a lot of people aren't very aware of it,
because...
You can get three months without noticing you.
Yeah, exactly.
So...
Well, in case it's nine, but only...
Yeah.
In the extreme, I guess.
Yes.
So anyway, we got a fantastic, wonderful baby girl.
Yep.
And when she was nine months old,
we contacted the IVF clinic.
Yeah.
Because we thought, right, we want more children.
But we don't know whether the frozen embryos
are going to...
Or...
Well, basically, or whether nothing, you know,
they're not defrosting very well at all.
And whether we had to do the whole procedure.
And so we thought...
Did you take any additional drugs for that, though?
Did you?
For the...
When they thought about...
No.
You just get the timing right and then pop them back up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, little bit of drugs, I think, but not that much.
I can't actually remember.
No.
Okay.
Anyway, so I rang the IVF clinic,
and told them that's what we want to do.
And they said, fair enough.
Just give us a ring when your next period is...
when you have your next period.
And that next period never came.
And my superpowers kicked in,
and I said, do you know you were pregnant?
And I said no.
I couldn't believe it.
And I couldn't believe it either,
because we had sex twice,
basically, in that nine months.
And...
Wow.
Well, definitely that month was because...
You don't...
Anyway.
The first born having a new baby in the house
is the best.
And we were rebuilding at the same time.
Yeah.
And by any way...
We were a standard or father or no.
It is the best...
a contraceptive having a new baby in the house.
Any time I would touch you at all,
the baby would start crying.
But...
But I think of those two times.
It was the one where I was out
in my summer trousers,
cycling from work,
so it's a 15-minute cycle.
In the freezing cold snow came in.
Hey, babe.
Let's do this thing.
Walka, walka, walka.
And then...
You were pregnant.
And...
And why do you think that...
Oh, because if you keep your...
You know, there's this thing
that you keep your scrotum cold
that it stimulates the sperm to come out.
Activates the sperm.
Yes.
So...
Well...
Yes, that theory is proven.
Well, there you go.
So we rang the IVF clinic.
And they said...
Fantastic.
Congratulations.
And...
And...
And...
Yeah, when...
It happens more often than once you've had a child...
Through IVF or whatever.
There's more chance of having a...
Natural...
Birth.
But the reverse is absolutely true.
Because we know of lots of people who've had no problem
having the first child.
Yeah.
We've had loads of issues having the second child.
So you see, like, having a...
A...
A...
Six-year-old...
And then having a 12-year-old...
Having to wait six years or something in between.
So, anyway, that went normal.
Yeah, the...
The IVF clinic was really nice.
They said, oh, come in for the eight-week scan.
Just, we want to see.
You know, it's fantastic.
So that was really nice.
Yeah, everything went according to...
Schedule, and we had a fantastic, wonderful baby boy.
Yes.
And...
But we still had the frozen embryos.
Yes.
And we...
From now on, I'm using protection because...
Yeah, we said to each other, well...
How many children do we want?
Or, you know, we...
If we had a...
If you had, you know...
Basically, we decided that...
Well, we definitely want to give the frozen embryos...
I got...
... a chance of life.
And...
I really felt that...
From the moral stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
Just...
I felt the same way.
Yeah.
So, again, when he was nine months, we...
Called him up.
We called the IVF clinic up.
And I restrained myself.
And...
Basically, we had...
Well, we were waiting for...
To hear.
You...
Basically make an appointment with the IVF clinic.
They check everything out.
They make sure you're okay.
And it has to be within your cycle.
So, you...
Yeah, you do have a little bit of drugs to control your cycle, basically.
But not that much.
And...
Then you go down to the IVF hospital.
Yeah.
And on that day, when you're in the waiting room,
that's when you hear whether or not the embryos have defrosted or right.
Yeah.
Because they take them out at the very last moment, of course.
They can't keep them...
And I didn't actually get to go in there because I was standing outside in the hall.
With two children.
With two children.
And everybody, you know, the other people across were looking...
You know, there was a few couple of the round.
And, you know, they're kind of looking and wanting to ask.
And I go, yeah, she is, he isn't.
Oh, right.
Exactly.
But I saw I had to go in myself.
And we heard that the two embryos defrosted.
Awesome.
Oh, okay.
So, that was fantastic news.
Two embryos were put back.
And then the waiting started again.
Again, and the hoping.
And the hoping.
Yeah.
And...
And your gift-kitting?
Again.
It did.
It's a miracle.
Yes.
Yeah.
So you were pregnant.
And we didn't know.
We strongly had the feeling that because they were so strong and survived the defrosting
that perhaps they were twins.
And we were all, you know, rise.
They're probably going to be twins.
And, you know, that's fine and fantastic.
And then we had the eight-week scan.
And it turned out to be one.
And I really felt, like, say, are you sure?
Okay.
Can you not just...
Isn't it behind the other one?
No.
But now it turned out to be one.
We really were convinced it was going to be twins.
Anyway.
So...
So you switched back to...
Okay.
It's super...
One child, you know, that's super.
And then a week later something happened where we had the chance to adopt a child.
The mother was pregnant with the child, you know, just nearly at the same stage as myself.
Yes.
Through an accident.
Yeah.
It wasn't...
It wasn't planned.
So basically, we said, well, you know, we will adopt the child.
We had already reckoned with twins.
So it doesn't...
You know, if you flick, basically, you flick back and forth and...
I must have...
I was happy to find four big numbers.
Four big numbers, yes.
But then I was thinking, you know, I went to bed freaked out.
Four, four, what I was going to do before.
And then you were thinking, you know, you could not go all down there, make that room a little bit bigger.
And, you know, shall we move up to the attic?
And, you know, all of a sudden, you...
As my mother has said, many occasions, you know, there's always room for one more.
And I remember as a child, you know, being her child, thinking, what is she on about, you know?
And then, yes, now I do realize...
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that didn't turn out...
No, it didn't come to be.
No, so basically, that is our story.
We have three fantastic children, the third one.
Not all the time.
The third one is a wonderful baby girl.
And they're now a bit bigger, they all go to school.
So anyway, what does this have to do with the surgery?
It's the reason why we wanted to do it.
Exactly.
And I remember, when I...
The evening I heard about the ICSI, I said to you, if there's ever anything that we can do,
tell people in the situation I want to do it.
Yeah. And we already kind of did a little bit because...
That was very little about us here.
Because in the Netherlands, when you are between week five and eleven of your pregnancy,
you... they ask pregnant women to pee in a jar.
And yeah, it's not her.
Oh, it's like a jury can.
It's actually a jury can.
Yeah, you collect all your...
All your urine?
All your urine.
You collect it.
And what do they do with it?
They take the hormones out of the urine
and turn it into drugs for women who want to do...
Who need to do IVF?
Yeah.
So basically, the stuff I've been injecting myself with was urine from other women.
No, well...
Well, it was a hormone that was in Europe.
And it works out.
It has a better success rate than the synthetic drugs that are used in other countries.
Yeah.
So that was kind of nice.
Boss, that's just in the Netherlands that they do this.
So if there is anyone in the Netherlands, but the thing is, it's very early in the pregnancy.
So by the time you hear about somebody...
Yeah, exactly.
When somebody is three months pregnant, they usually tell other people
but by then it's too late to do this.
So you usually have things that you forget.
You don't know about it in the first one.
And then you find out about it later.
Yeah.
So yeah, that was that.
So anyway, we did do that.
And we...
But it...
Yeah.
And one day I got a phone call from you.
Yes.
Well, basically...
We went to baby swimming with the children.
As you do.
As you do.
Yes.
Being that it's underwater.
Nobody seems to talk about that.
All you Dutch people think...
That's normal.
Yeah, it's normal.
Don't talk about the dikes.
Don't talk about the fact we're like seven meters underwater.
Which isn't very far.
It was like just the deep end of the swimming pool.
But it's the deep end of the swimming pool.
It's the tougher house.
But anyway.
Yeah.
Well, everybody can swim nice.
But you do them for longer than...
Yeah, that's true.
That's why we send them to swimming.
Anyway, that's why everybody is swimming lessons.
But we went to baby swimming with the kids.
And they're...
Of course.
We were speaking people there.
They were English-speaking people there.
And...
You jazz.
And you have contact with them.
Whatever.
And you see them on the street every now and then.
So there...
One day I saw one of them...
One of these ladies...
In the supermarket.
And she has one daughter.
Who she was doing the baby swimming with.
And...
I asked her...
She had recently started working again.
And I asked her, how is it going?
And she was a bit like, well...
You know, it's a bit much for...
For the child that I'm away so much.
And we're trying to organize it.
It's not...
I'm not 100% happy with it.
And...
So I asked her, do you have to work?
What's...
What's the reason, you know...
I don't want to pry.
But why are you doing it?
Because she don't look very happy about it.
She whispered that they were saving up for...
To go to the US and get a surrogate.
Because she wasn't able to have any more children due to an incident.
That actually occurred in the same hospital that we were in.
Yeah.
And...
Basically, I immediately felt like right if there's...
You know, if I can do anything for you, I didn't say it at the time.
I did say, well, could you...
Do you have any information about it?
Because I don't know anything about surrogacy.
And...
So she immediately dropped over the leaflet that...
That day, that evening.
And I rang Ken to ask him.
Yes, and then...
Come home and...
I had to think about it and I was...
Pretty okay with it, to be honest.
Yeah.
Boss.
It was a bit...
It's a big thing.
But at the same time, we both felt...
Yeah, we definitely wanted to investigate it.
Yeah.
That's...
If we could do anything, then we wanted to basically look into it.
So, in the Netherlands, along with the fact that everybody is not allowed to...
Oh, well, okay.
We started investigating.
And as it happens, they had immediately after this incident had occurred,
they had...
Both of them been English.
They had gone to the UK to hospital in the UK.
Where they had been before.
Yes.
So they knew the people...
Yeah, well, they had lived over there, so...
Yeah.
So, they went home to Mama, basically, and had their eggs frozen.
They had embryos frozen embryos.
And he had his...
Yeah, frozen embryos.
And he had his sperm frozen.
Because in the UK, you're required to leave your sperm in for six months in quarantine,
whereas in the Netherlands, you can use fresh sperm.
I...
I never...
We never really found out the reason for that.
No.
So, if anybody knows, give us a shout.
And...
So...
So, how many eggs did they have there?
Fifteen embryos.
Fifteen embryos.
That's also quite a lot, yeah.
Yeah.
So, anyway, we...
We set them...
We're willing to...
To go ahead.
Yeah.
Provided, well, we don't know...
Basically, what's going to happen, so...
There might be a few stumbling blocks, but...
So, we had...
You did a lot of investigation, and it turns out that there was a lawyer.
Well, basically, we wanted to go to the IVF clinic.
There's only one clinic in the Netherlands, IVF clinic.
The one in Amsterdam that we had two.
Which happens to be the same one that we were going to, yeah.
Yeah.
And even the private clinics who did IVF outside of...
Yeah.
Were not licensed to do surgery.
No.
Only that one hospital.
Yeah.
So, we contacted them and explained the situation, but...
They said we're not going to help you.
And the reasons...
For not helping us were that one...
There were...
There were embryos, frozen embryos, so...
They have to be used up first before they would start a new procedure
and be...
Not everybody had the Dutch nationality.
So, we all had to be Dutch.
Everybody had to be Dutch.
But the main thing at that point for us was that we needed to do it in the UK.
Yeah.
So, there was...
No, that by not doing it in the Netherlands, it also meant...
Because if you do it through the IVF clinic, the one who is licensed for surrogacy,
they also have psychological help available.
They...
All the legal aspects are taken care of through them, insurances, etc.
They just tell you everything.
They have a pack.
And we were stranded.
We didn't have anything.
We couldn't do everything in the UK, because the pack that they have is for UK residents.
So, it didn't match up with us being in the Netherlands.
So, it was...
We had to...
So, we're not doing two procedures.
Two legal systems.
Yeah.
So...
It wasn't very straightforward.
No.
No.
So, we found out everything...
You mean you mostly?
All the information.
We...
So, as well as not being allowed to advertise in the...
Yeah, we've been really mentioning that.
It's not about...
You're not in the Netherlands, or in Europe, you're not allowed to have a commercial surrogacy.
And that includes...
That includes advertising.
That's advertising that you wish to...
That you're looking for a surrogate.
Yes.
And there's even questions on...
You know, whether...
Whether going to a forum, you know, an online bulletin board forum, and typing in,
I'm looking for a surrogate, is advertising.
Yeah.
And they're very, very stickly about that.
And we'll get into later on exactly what that means.
So, everybody in order to do the day, everybody needs to have Dutch nationality.
So...
You found a lawyer who turned out to be two dollars down from where they...
The biological parents were living, actually.
Yes.
And she was very good.
Yes. Very good.
She pointed us in the right directions.
She had...
An example of a contract.
Because you had to do the contract.
We had to do the contract again.
No, speak about the contract.
No, speak about the contract.
You need this contract.
Okay, under Dutch law, they introduced a law.
And it isn't common in a lot of EU countries.
Where they say that if a woman gives birth to a baby,
that baby, regardless of the DNA,
that baby belongs to that woman.
Yes.
And whoever that woman is partnered with at the time,
either legally married or in a living contract,
which is like a light form of marriage,
that a lot of people who are going out for a little while do.
It's...
Yeah, it's a Dutch thing as well.
That that person automatically becomes the parent.
So in this situation, if we were doing circusy,
you would be the legal mother.
And I would be the legal father.
Then we would have to immediately post only this child up for adoption,
saying we do not want to raise...
We do not want to raise this child.
We're still happy with keeping all our other children that we have.
By the way, please don't take them.
And that was freaking me out that that would happen.
So, and then the biological parents adopt the child, their own child.
Yes.
But it's not...
And the reason for that is...
That sounds pretty straightforward,
but there's all the rules...
Yeah, but I want to explain why that is.
The reason for that is for donor eggs and donor sperm,
when that became possible.
And that's the vast majority of people who are doing techniques.
You get a donor egg and it's put into your body,
then you're the mother of that child.
So, legally, they put it in for that place.
Unfortunately, from a circusy point of view,
you don't want that mechanism to kick in,
you want it to be the other way,
but you have this weird situation where biological parents need to adopt
their own child back from the circus.
Yeah.
But in addition to that,
there's the stands taken by the family.
Either they...
They want to go to the child welfare area,
the child welfare people.
That if they even smell the hint of commercialism,
and that means gifts of Christmas
are too much money,
more than subsistence or whatever,
they will refuse to deal with the case.
And what that means automatically is that the two parents,
the two surrogate parents who have given...
who have this child have now a child
that they're legally responsible for,
up until the age of 18 and 24 and beyond.
So, the lawyer told us all this stuff.
So, where are they going?
Yeah.
So, what do we need to do?
Well, there's this contract thing
where you state exactly how much money is going to change hands,
where the receipts are going to be,
and that if it happens...
And the money that you're talking about money,
for example,
I need to take out...
For drugs.
Yeah, for drugs.
I need to say, yeah, exactly.
But also,
insurances that I have to pay
and then they reimburse me that type of thing.
So, no money...
So, no money...
No money that's considered payment,
just your expenses.
Yes, and that...
Well, we were rigorous with that.
We didn't even...
In exchange, it gives us a Christmas.
We just had homemade cards and, you know,
the kids made cards and well,
she made beautiful works of art.
It's very creative.
Yeah, she's a great artist.
That's by the bike.
So, yeah, there were insurances.
And then there's weird things with our health insurance
because then it becomes a regular pregnancy for us.
And then it's IVF treatment for them.
Yeah, who's doing the IVF treatment?
Yeah.
Exactly.
You know, it's just...
It's...
A lot of coordination.
Plus, we have...
We have to deal with two different countries.
Conscious, yes.
So, thus, it's very tricky.
The procedures differ, the methods differ.
It's...
And, culturally, the medical system.
Yes, you have to.
Yeah, you have to travel as well.
So, you need to arrange flights.
Yeah.
And it's very vague.
You're dealing with the human body.
So, it's like whenever somebody's cycle starts,
then within three days,
you need to be somewhere else.
You need to be flights.
And you might be there for two days.
You might be there for four weeks.
Or, you know, two weeks.
So, you need an open-ended flights.
And then you need baby seizures for that period of time.
And you're, of course, working as well.
And they're working.
But, there's also the different ways
that the Netherlands health system works.
And the English...
English stash Irish health system works.
In the Netherlands, they're very fond of having a well-written procedure.
And telling you exactly what's going on.
I mean, even if you go into the dentist,
it's like, I'm going to open your mouth.
I'm going to put this in.
And I'm going to...
And they go, don't tell me about it.
I don't want it at all.
Thank you very much.
Whereas, in the UK, it's...
Stand back.
I know exactly what I'm doing.
You know, I'm putting it in for this procedure.
And I'll write this thing out.
And you'll follow it exactly.
And then that's exactly how it's going to work.
Yeah.
And you just bring us up every step.
You know, we'll...
We'll tell you the next step.
We'll tell you the next step.
And then when you're done with that,
you have to ring.
And we'll tell you the next step.
Whereas, in the Netherlands, you get a list.
This is what's going to happen.
At this point, this or this will happen.
And then...
Yeah.
At these four points, these...
So it's like a flow diagram of...
Yeah.
So, coach...
And then we had the practical things.
Like, you get a prescription in the UK for something
which isn't sold here.
And if it is sold here,
it's insoluble form or liquid form.
And then you get a prescription for five...
You know, two capsules of five milligrams.
Whereas here, this or one capsule of eight milligrams.
But the strength, the concentration was more.
And it was just...
Yeah.
It was a nightmare.
Yes.
And both, again, the IVF clinic was really nice.
Yes. And the IVF clinic in the UK was...
And exactly?
Yeah.
There was a niceness flowing everywhere.
Yeah.
Yeah, really.
Everybody did their utmost best to help us out.
But what I mean with why I mentioned the IVF clinic here
is because basically, they could have told us,
well, tough, you know, we're not dealing with you
because you're dealing with the UK.
But they didn't.
They said, well, you know, we'll try and assist you
for most of the steps.
Yeah.
And then...
It also meant you didn't need to take money flights.
You were able to do this gowns.
Exactly.
Because otherwise, you would have to go over...
Yeah.
Really.
And even that, like here, everything is digitized.
So they were able to send the scans over.
But then they couldn't do the scans.
So they had to find a machine.
They had to get the IT guys to dust off a machine
to print off the X-rays.
So that we could put them into a folder.
So we could bring them over to the guys.
That was just weird things that you think,
oh, my God, this should be sorted.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Anyway, so...
To make a long story even longer.
Well, it's everybody's fault.
If you got this far, I mean...
Yeah.
It's because you didn't send it in the show really.
So you can actually talk to us about it.
Anyway, yes.
Sorry to see.
You can turn it into a two-parter.
No.
There was loads of drugs they wanted to give.
Yes.
But I didn't want that.
Because I felt...
Well, all the drugs...
Basically, they had a frozen...
No, I don't react well to certain drugs.
And they had frozen embryos.
And the last time when we had the frozen embryos put back,
all I needed to do was take a tiny little bit of drugs
towards the end of my cycle, basically, just before the eggs popped.
In order to keep them there until the timing was right, et cetera.
So I basically didn't want to take that whole amount of drugs
for just that.
So we...
We asked what the chance is...
Yeah, the chance is...
What's the difference?
Percentage difference of better outcome if you take the drugs.
And it was like 2% of a difference.
Of a difference.
So we also...
Yeah.
We don't want to go down that route if we don't have to.
How many eggs did the tick out?
Half, seven or eight I can't remember because they had 15 embryos.
They took out...
Seven, I think.
Seven the first time, I think.
And they weren't the best of quality.
They picked out to the two that were best was...
The other ones didn't even make it.
No, they made it.
They all made it, but to a certain degree,
they had a lot of debris in it as they call it,
where, you know, when you inject...
Or, you know, in the petri dish, a lot of...
A lot of the cells were damaged due to the frozen...
Yeah.
At the cell skin was broken.
Yeah.
So they were also not repeating the cells were in replication.
Yeah, exactly.
So two were...
Because that's all they were allowed to put in either.
Yeah.
One was pretty good, basically.
And the other one was a little bit...
Digy.
Digy, boss.
They put two back and...
Then we had to wait again.
Again and hope.
Again and hope.
And again, your...
Magic.
Yes.
You were pregnant.
I was pregnant.
Yeah, for sure.
I knew it myself this time.
After three successful pregnancies.
I knew what it felt like.
And you...
Could see it as well.
Yeah.
And...
Then we wanted to know, like, what do you do?
I am the special gift that nobody believes and it's completely useless, I think.
So what...
What we want them to be involved.
So...
Yeah.
Should we tell them an arch?
Should we tell them an arch at this time?
So I...
I kindnessed the world.
Perhaps, you know, I really have the feeling that I'm pregnant.
Boss, I don't want to put your hopes up too much.
So, you know, we still have to wait and see.
Unfortunately, a few days later, we both noticed that it disappeared.
It disappeared in a couple of hours.
I felt it...
Go away, so to say.
It wasn't even any...
You know, it wasn't any discharge.
I wanted a better word.
But the thing is too small, but...
Yeah.
It was like just a veil.
You could see it disappear.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And I had to tell them, of course.
After getting their hopes up.
Yeah.
And we...
But they said...
No, we have to wait until I try the test.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, we were right.
So, that didn't work out very well.
Yeah.
We had another try with drugs this time.
They took out eight embryos.
They were not great quality either, Boss.
They put back two anyway.
Yeah, they...
And what happened to the remainder?
The remainder...
They weren't good enough to freeze again.
Okay.
So, they just didn't divide properly.
And...
Yeah, that was it.
So, that was it.
Their eggs were used up this time.
Their eggs were used up.
Unfortunately, that time...
Not at all.
Yeah.
Zero.
No.
Nothing.
No.
So...
And it was also that time was...
Yeah.
Things just didn't work out.
What's wrong with the whole...
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't know.
So, that was it, basically.
So, what to do?
He went over to the UK,
because we didn't know what to do,
but he went over to the UK anyway,
to freeze another batch of sperm
for the six months quarantine.
And we talked about it.
What are we going to do?
So, we're going to take a break for a while,
and...
Yeah.
Exactly.
But...
Does the clock stick in as well?
There are clocks ticking.
And...
We decided to go ahead
and basically sync up
both of our cycles
and try and guess...
We are...
Fresh embryos.
Yeah.
So, but the question was,
could we do it here in the Netherlands for a couple of years?
Yes.
That point we said...
Yeah, exactly.
He went over to the UK anyway...
No matter how many.
Exactly.
And...
But in the meantime, we said,
well...
Let's try and get it done here,
because there's a lot less stress involved.
Yeah.
For us, it's just,
you go down on the train.
Everybody knows the procedure,
you follow it,
and you go down...
It's a half-hour,
half-coffee,
do the thing, come back home,
as opposed to...
Traveling.
Getting the flights,
you go over,
you need to get the taxi,
you need to go there,
there's the waiter room,
you need a whole saga, you know?
Yeah.
And all the coordination of the drugs
and...
And the days off, you're working on the law.
And the days off, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So, that was...
Yeah, we really wanted to do it
in the UVF clinic
with the Surrogacy License here in the Netherlands.
Yeah.
We all wanted that.
So, they...
At this point,
our option was,
if we were to be within the law,
that...
Three of us,
because it wasn't enough that...
yourself,
and they...
I also needed to be the Dutch Nationality.
And the thing is,
you can do this Dutch National Exam,
but what it means is,
if you're married here to an EU citizen,
that person can...
that spouse,
namely me, can just stay here,
and become
Dutch after 15 years,
you automatically become Dutch.
You get a Dutch passport,
you don't have to give it in your own passport,
everything's hunky-dory.
However, if you do the citizenship exam,
you need to prove that you know the Dutch culture,
you need to know the Dutch language,
you need to do all this stuff,
and then you need to swap your passport.
You then become a Dutch citizen,
you have to give back your...
you can't have dual citizenship at that point.
But we all thought,
okay, we can do that,
so we investigate,
all three of us,
and I would need to do that as well,
we're willing to do that.
But the problem was,
that there's an age limit
on doing this procedure.
And by the time,
even if we fast-tracked that course,
we still wouldn't have all become citizens in time
before your biological clock stopped ticking basically.
Yeah, if we'd take about a year,
something to complete it,
and we didn't have the time.
No.
So then we asked them,
could they do something?
The IVF clinic.
Yeah, so we...
Well, we basically...
Put your case to the movie.
Yeah, she pleaded with one of the geneacologists
from the local IVF clinic,
and he was very taken with the case,
because the incident occurred in that hospital
with one of his colleagues,
and so they...
They got by in from the local hospital,
and they all went to the other hospital,
and they discussed it there as well.
Yeah, and everybody there,
or the workers there,
were saying, yeah,
we should really, you know,
we need to give them a chance,
et cetera, et cetera,
boss, the head of the department,
basically stopped it.
He said, no, if we're allowing these people,
then other people, other couples,
you know, it might become a tourist.
Destination.
And then it was at that point that I thought,
well, does this thing in the EU,
that, you know, if I go to...
If I come here, for instance,
in Netherlands,
and I'm unemployed, then I'm entitled
to the same unemployment benefits
that a Dutch citizen is,
or vice versa, a Dutch person
comes to Ireland,
they're entitled to the same benefits
that an Irish person has.
So I was thinking, well, under Dutch law,
maybe we're able to, you know,
force them to say, look,
you're discriminating against EU citizens
from another member state
by doing this thing.
So we contacted the lawyer,
and we got back a thingy
and she was doing the lawyer thing,
working the town.
So, do we?
Do we? Don't we?
In this case, in that case, in this case,
in that case.
And basically, in the end,
in the EU,
there's loopholes in the team where they say,
under moral and ethical grounds,
any particular country is culturally
allowed to withhold certain things
if it's part of their culture.
So basically, it's up to the hospital.
Yes.
It's up to the country to decide,
the country decided that it's up to the hospital
and the hospital decided,
no, they didn't want to open that kind of world.
Exactly. And we...
And as no other hospital was doing this in the Netherlands.
To Belgium, we had a look
to see whether Belgium would do it
was the same thing.
Yeah, it's not the same room.
They have the same room. Also in Germany.
Also in Germany. So basically...
The UK. And the UK...
The UK wasn't an issue because we had both worked in the UK for years.
Yeah, they were, of course,
from the UK originally.
And we had both worked in the UK.
So that wasn't an issue.
We skipped over the psychological things
to do when we were in the UK, actually.
Well, there wasn't that much.
They just...
We got asked
why we were doing it.
And they were wanted to know as well.
Was it for money? And then we told them the IVF story
and that we were trying to help both your friends.
Yeah. And they asked us individually
and as a couple
and with the four of us.
Yeah. So just to make sure
and to talk things through
and make sure that it was...
And if there was...
If there was a handicap...
Oh, yeah, for...
There was one of the things.
There was one of the big things.
If there was a handicap child,
then they wanted us to have an abortion
and then we have an abortion or not.
Yeah, exactly.
And also,
if a birth had turned out
that the child had a disability or whatever.
And the biological parents...
The biological parents could say,
right, we don't want that.
Then we would be stuck with a child.
Yeah.
And legally it's our...
Exactly.
And would be stuck that sounds a bit horrible.
I mean, your intention is to give the child away.
Yeah.
And in that case, we stumbled over that one actually quite a lot.
Because also we did that...
We had that legal thing.
So we had to put that into the contract as well.
And they were saying, well, if something...
If we discover this, we would like
you to terminate it.
And then if the child...
If you don't terminate it,
then morally,
I felt that we were to accept
and responsibility for this child from that point on.
And then, you know, that's...
Exactly.
So we had big discussions about that.
Very big discussions.
Not easy stuff.
You know, it's not very simple.
Anyway, so we went back to the UK.
Yeah.
And we started the whole procedure
for getting our cycles in sync.
And you had massive help from here.
Oh, the IVF clinic here.
Especially this time around.
They just pulled out all stops to help us out.
And we had a dedicated...
For the first two rounds, we had quite...
It was difficult to get hold of somebody in the UK.
But for this...
Last time we had somebody with an iPad
and she was checking other breakfast
and, you know, you'd send off
a question to the nurse.
And then within a half an hour,
she would have emailed back everybody.
We had an email list for the whole group
so that if it went wrong, everybody cut it.
Yeah, that was a big help.
Oh, really, yeah, it really, really helped that.
Yeah.
Yeah, in the meantime,
when we started the procedure,
it was about a four-month procedure.
He, the biological father,
got a job in another country.
Yeah, yeah.
So that added to,
oh, rice, you know,
what are we going to do?
And again, the legal procedure.
So they still adopt
when they're in another country, etc.
But she stayed behind.
So they maintain, you maintain
this residency here in the Netherlands?
Yeah, exactly, for a while.
But, yeah.
So, but their intention was, of course,
to follow him and to move away.
But we continued on with the procedure
and it was long and tedious
and an awful lot of drugs
and waiting for this stuff.
You didn't have to.
Did you need to inject yourself that time?
No, because there wasn't a particular,
I was supposed to inject myself,
but again, with the drugs,
there was a whole,
anyway, in the end, I had nasal spray
or something.
Oh, and sourced.
And she
had to, of course,
take a lot of drugs,
for each other.
And we had a lot of hospital visits.
But finally.
And you were also working,
yeah.
And she had given up her job.
Anyway, so,
we went over to the UK.
They had,
I can't remember exactly how many embryos
they had.
Because first, we went,
they had to go over, of course,
to have the eggs harvested,
then have the IVF procedure done,
then we had to wait to see
about the embryos.
And in the meantime, I had to take drugs to
basically have my
womb ready for
to receive the embryos.
And we weren't allowed
to have any sexual intercourse
because of the fear of, you know.
Well, I had to actually,
well, that wasn't a problem because I had
had to find out already you had a bisectomy.
But still,
which is kind of weird as well.
Because within the space of
three years, I was going from
being a client at the IVF clinic
to somebody in the
having a bisectomy.
And that was weird as well.
They didn't give you drugs.
And I was scrotum basically.
And there's like buzzing thing.
And from my right one, that was fine.
Just, when Snape and then
I was like, I wouldn't shut up talking.
Again, I am doing this.
I said, I don't want to know.
Okay, meaning, shut up.
I don't want to talk.
I was going, yeah, culturally in Ireland.
That's Catholic country.
How do they feel about this?
I have my mother for the cat.
You know, as far as having 19 babies
is a good thing.
But I knew that was weird.
Yes.
Yes, both.
Far better have a bisectomy.
I thought that you have continued to have the pill
and inject yourself with drugs for the rest of your life.
So, yeah.
I mean, while back.
Yes.
Back as the IVF clinic.
The IVF clinic.
Yes, they, it turned out they had, I think, about
five or six embryos this time.
They were looking very good.
There was one that was perfect.
And there was another one that was nearly perfect.
And so, they put those two back.
Yeah.
And the other ones, we had hoped, like, right,
if there's such good quality, they might be able to freeze some as well.
Yeah.
But, unfortunately, that didn't happen.
Yeah.
But, good enough to freeze.
So.
So, then the waiting.
Everything's writing a little last chance.
Yes.
Yeah.
And my superpower came into effect?
Yes.
To tell us that there was nothing.
There was nothing.
No, and I didn't feel anything either.
No.
All that, everything that we, all of us, had worked.
That is a year and a half, basically.
Oh.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, a year and a half.
Yeah.
So.
Nope.
You never...
That was...
That was that?
Yeah.
Really.
We did...
I didn't want to say, right, that's it, guys.
Well, we had said three times.
We all had agreed on three times.
And now he's moving away.
And, yeah, they're moving away and all that.
But I didn't want to be the one saying, right, stop.
Enough is enough.
I wanted them to think about it because I wanted...
If I would have said, right, enough is enough, then they could have said, right, you know,
if only we had a final time.
Yeah.
Because people do that and keep going.
Yeah, your head tells you that type of stuff.
I don't blame them.
No, absolutely.
So, I wanted them to think about it and make the decision.
Like, are we continuing or are we going to stop?
And they, in the end, there was a lot of thinking and it took them a while, of course.
Yeah.
And then they said, now we're going to stop.
We're going to move to that other country and...
Continue on, we're going to be thankful for the blessings that we have in our own child.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's that, really.
And it's...
Yeah, it's all very disappointing.
All around you.
All around.
And also just the feeling of letting them down.
Yeah.
I very much...
And also, there was nothing...
Nothing came out of it.
I mean, we do have the experience of it.
Yeah.
And it would have been nice.
And I mean, go ahead.
For that last go, I really thought everything was coming together.
I mean, we had a...
Yeah, exactly.
There was that artist who did...
She does belly painting.
Of pregnant women.
Of pregnant women.
So, she does...
On the belly, on the outside of the belly, she draws a picture of the baby inside.
For example.
Or something else, just big flower or whatever.
Yeah, something nice and...
Something nice.
And like we were talking about this.
Because we were saying we'd really like to do something nice for them.
And, you know, we were thinking of having a picture of...
If this works out, it would be really...
Yeah, of YouTube, belly to belly.
And then, but draw on her body.
The picture of the baby.
Yeah, and the artist became very enthusiastic.
Oh, really.
You know, we...
Yeah, we hit everything in place.
And it just didn't work out.
Six.
But that's life.
And that's the point.
Yeah.
I mean, we are so lucky, haven't we?
Yes.
We don't go.
You know, it's just poof.
Yeah.
And it works.
What one year you think, well, perhaps we're not going to have any children.
And then, three years later, you have three.
Or, yeah, looking at four, possibly, you know, whatever if we have twins at the time.
Yeah.
It's...
They're really...
What?
The thing about it is, people...
The reactions...
Let's talk about the reaction to people about this.
For a start, my mother could not get her head around.
What were we doing?
Why were we doing this?
No.
She never said anything, obviously.
My family didn't die, that they just didn't understand.
And a lot of people's reactions was, well, we're...
Sorry.
Well, they already have one child.
So...
Yeah.
Why did they want anymore?
And that's...
Aren't they happy with that?
Yeah, but if it's your choice, that's a different thing than when it's...
Your choice is it taken away through something that was out of your control.
Yeah.
You know, it's not...
Well, because I said to you...
You didn't want...
They didn't want that to happen.
They wanted more children, but it wasn't possible.
You know, that's a completely different...
I've said to people, like, but you have three kids.
And what if, you know, after the first time this happened and you never had those other children?
Oh, you know, well, you know, that would be it.
It just gives a dog.
Yeah, it's not...
No, it's not that simple, you know?
No, it's not.
No, it's not.
But anyway.
Unfortunately, we don't have a happy ending for this episode.
No, we don't.
But that's life.
Yes.
Pretty much.
It is.
And the only thing that they got out of it was that they were able to try out this path.
Yeah, exactly.
And they realized, because they're...
They're daughter, they didn't have any trouble conceiving.
They never realized...
How lucky they were already.
Yeah, how lucky they were.
And through doing this procedure, they realized how difficult it can be and that...
You know, even if they didn't...
Even if that incident hadn't occurred, that they may still only have had one child.
Yes, exactly.
You know, with the quality of the eggs and stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not to say that that was it.
I mean, we don't know what it...
You know, as the doctor says to us, you know, how do you know a good egg from a bad egg?
And they go, well, this is...
This looks healthier to us.
But we have no proof that when a baby comes out, it's not the bad egg that has turned into the baby
and the other one, you know, that hasn't.
They don't know.
They do simply just...
No.
Exactly.
But they had thoughts, you know, from the start,
okay, we'll go over to the eggs.
Because hurdle wasn't...
Yeah, finding a surrogate.
And then we just put some embryos in and voila, we'll have a baby after nine months
because they had never thought of...
The regular stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
Of the percentages and how lucky you actually are when you get pregnant.
Yeah.
Through natural ways or or not.
Which is why we have, you know...
Yeah, we...
Yes, it's very difficult to end this.
It is.
We kind of have to stop.
But this does affect 10% of the population.
So the chances are that you know couples who are going through this.
And the...
Spare them at all, basically.
Yes, and a lot of people find it difficult to talk about it.
And then when you do say something or mention something about it,
the story comes out.
And they're quite relieved to be able to talk about it.
And that's also something that the couple we're talking about are doing now.
They're talking about it.
Well, before they didn't.
So...
I don't know.
I still would have liked the...
Of course, that would have been the...
I would have liked that, but I would have also liked to change it so that other couples could have had, you know, other...
You mean the legal situation?
The legal situation?
I would have liked that to change.
But, you know, why can't it be done?
Why can't you go in front of a judge like you have to do anyway?
And just before the case can go, we're not...
We're not from the country, but we want to do this.
We want to put a case now before we do the procedure so that...
Give people a feckin chance, you know?
Right, folks.
Sorry for...
Sorry for making such a long show, but we had...
We've been promised them to do this for a while.
And it's one of these...
Is it of interest to hacker things?
And...
As we were going through this...
I met a few people on IRC and was just telling people about it.
And they said, yeah, they would like to hear an episode.
So here is the episode during the summer lull.
And...
If you have any questions, let us know.
Yeah, exactly. If you've gone through that sort of thing, just leave some comments.
And if you want to chat about it, yeah, drop us online.
Yeah.
All right.
Tune in tomorrow for another exciting episode of...
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