hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr1291.txt

Episode: 1291
Title: HPR1291: Parsing an ISO8601 formatted duration field with Perl
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1291/hpr1291.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-17 23:06:52

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Hi everybody, my name is Ken Thalam and I'm joined by Dave Morris and we're going to
do a joint episode tonight. How are you Dave? I can, I'm good, thank you. It's traditional
that we do some playful banter, so let's do playful banter. Okay, enough of that. That
was it. It's just hot and I have all the windows open so if you're here. Yeah, yes, pretty warm
here. Even for Edinburgh, it's, it's pretty amazing. Okay, we want to tackle the most boring
of topics. Well, to be honest, we're in the middle of the winter drought or the summer
drought or winter drought here in Australia. Here in HPR, there are no shells and I want
to ask Dave a load of questions about a pearl script that he has written for me and
Dave, you've been so kind as to a writer script and be come on to talk to me about it. Okay,
so parse 8601. First of all, let's find out what 8601 is. It's an ISO 8601 and it is
a date format and if you go to xkcd forward slash 1179 link in the show notes, you will
find a humorous cartoon depicting that all dates should be 8601. And basically what
it is is year-two-digit month, four-digit year-two-digit month-two-digit day-of-month
day-matter-t hour-two-digit-hour colon, two-digit-minus colon, two-digit-second. More or less,
there are summer abbreviations that you can do and there will also be a link in the show
notes to a two-day specification for that and also for the Wikipedia page on that. So that's
the first thing. Any comments on that, Dave? No, no, no, the only comment I had was I've already
started on some show notes, so the definition of the two definitions of the spec we're
talking about tonight are in that. That's cool. Boss, that is the date format which everybody
should be using and ironically enough, as I look in your paroscrypt, Dave, more, pointing
at you, you are not using ISO 8601. I know, I wish to submit a patch. I'm actually, okay,
I'll give you my excuses now. The way that I write post scripts, I use a Vim plug-in, which is
whose name I've forgotten just for a moment, it's called some pull thingy. And it has the capability
of pointing at the field and going click or talking in a bunch of funny characters and it will
then update the date. So I keep the created date and the revision date updated by that means,
and it does a more human legible but less standard format in there. So maybe I should nag the
the creator of this thing, say, how about we have a different date form? Actually, I'm
to think of it, there may well be a way of fiddling that under the configuration file. So,
not look to that yet. Yes, the point I can ask, and this highlights exactly the issue that I have
with any other date format, other than 8601, is that we have 0407 2013 is when I was created on.
And it's somebody from the states looking at that, we'll go, okay, that's the 7th of March,
March, no April. No, April, yes. Yeah. So if you put the field away round for a start,
everybody knows all this is a four-digit year, therefore it's ISO, it's 601.
Oh, I do understand the, whenever you're doing anything machine readable, then definitely 8601
is the way to go. Also, maybe a little bit of debate when it comes to human readable.
No, no, if human readable, I dismiss that argument. If people start using that format,
it's completely within a week or two, you're completely converted.
It's, and the right sense, it's the year, month, day. Okay, as I read it, I have the days on the
bottom right hand corner of my PC, and that's the form up there. It gets very, very easy to read.
Plus, it also means if you're saving files or something, you can sort them by days without having
that. Oh, absolutely, yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Yes, I have certainly done this for many years.
Yes. Okay, but that is besides the point. There is a, the such a thing, that is the format for the
days, but there's such a thing as a duration, and that is also covered by the same specification,
and that duration follows slightly different standard. It kind of works in the same way,
but it is missing. It starts, first of all, with the letter P, and I believe it originally
started meaning period, but now it's just a start identifier. Followed by zero or more years,
zero or more months, zero or more weeks, zero or more days, followed by the T for time designator
if it's there, followed by zero more hours, zero more minutes, zero more seconds. Anything you want
to say about that? The week's thing I'm not sure about, where did you get that from? That's
the IS from the Wikipedia page. Yeah, yeah. I saw it in the Wikipedia reference, but not in what I
took to be the original specification of the thing. So whether the original has been embellished a bit
to include weeks, I don't know. Do you know anything more about it? I think what has happened
here is that the ISL standard organization, being an international standard body charge
hardcore money for their specs. So therefore, these specs in order to use them, you need to
purchase them. And they're very, very, very expensive. And what they do, smart as they are, is they,
if you buy one, then they will reference four others in this. And then the one that you actually
looking for might be four deep down. And we're not talking cheap to you know, there are six or
700 euros for a, for one of these specs. And what you were looking at was the W3C consortium
version, which is publicly available. And I think for all intents and purposes, that's
closest thing we need to base it on because I think they also cover the XML specification as well.
So everything goes back to that and then they go back to the ISO. It's excellent. But that
particular one didn't seem to include a weak spec that I could see anyway. Personally,
I don't like the idea of weeks anyway because it's real. I don't like the idea of months either
to be brutally honest with you. Well, a week is a more clear definition than a month.
It would be yes. A week would be more clear as well. There's a lot of wobbliness in this,
this whole business of date specs. I mean, duration specs because you know, this is a month long,
but which month? Yeah, exactly. To the year long, but which year? No, it's a leap year or not.
And it's all rather messy. So what I've seen myself in an application for this, which has been,
in my experience, people tend to use just multiples of days. So if they want to say a year,
they'll say 365 days. So many hours, so many minutes, so many seconds to avoid that
disambiguity, is that a word? Ambiguity, I would imagine. Yes. Yes. Yes. Turn that upside down.
And you avoid the ambiguity of that. They explicitly do it. However, if you're writing
specifications yourself at home and want to make sure that people are using this format,
duration format, you should also highlight in your documentation that you are forbidding the use
of month and possibly years over, possibly weeks as well. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Days, I think
I've put some comments in the script that I've written to that general effect already. So
just for the future readers to ponder. Yes. If anybody's interested enough to read it. Good.
Anyway, so you have a plural script. Tell us about plural, what it is. Well, Paul's a wonderful
language, which the origin of which I can't really remember. I'm afraid, but it goes back quite a
long way. And it is a language which was brought together from the ideas that already existed in
the Unix operating system. So the author looked at things like grab and awk and said and thought,
oh, it would be nice if you have the language that incorporated them all. And he created
Paul. And there it was. So it's a strange, a very warm yes indeed. It was a linguist, which is
an interesting position to start from. It has its, guess you call them strong advantages.
And others would call them idiosyncrasies, which have come about as a consequence of
the origins from a linguist. But it does explain a lot actually. And it kind of helps you
to remember it as you're learning. If you know that to start off, if you don't, it's
you'll be getting ahead against the law. Well, it's, yes. Anyway, that's that's Perlina in a very
small nutshell, which is actually a book. Why? That's probably Randall. Randall sure. This is
got his finger in there somewhere, I'm not sure. But yes. So it's the fact that I would like to
think that the fact that the the O'Reilly books use animal symbols on the front, animal logos
on the front. And the pearl one tends to be a camel. And a camel is traditionally an animal
that was created by committee. It gives you some indication of what you're in for when it comes
to Perl. However, Perl is a wonderful language and it's very, very powerful. Many people say,
oh, I hate Perl because every Perl script I ever look at is a mess and I can't make
head or toe of it. And but the same thing could apply to any language. I've seen
the many. Okay, any not, not any, but many. I've seen some pretty dire C programs and some appalling
Pascal programs and et cetera, et cetera. Python, perhaps, there's, they're more
trained. They're required. Yeah, yeah. But you know, it's my point really is that it's the writer
who you have to complain to rather than the language. Yes. And this is actually why we're having
this discussion. But before you go, before we go further, I actually want to recommend a,
if you're lobbed with some Perl scripts or have to do some Perl work yourself and want to get
off the ground pretty quick, I found Sam's teacher self Perl in 24 hours while third edition by
Clinton Pierce to be quite a very easy read just covers the basics and goes, doesn't go too deep
or try to be too smarmy and smart as certain books do. It's very down-to-earth and
nice examples, but that's a by-the-by. Good, good. But another hint perhaps is if you are
able to and you're allowed to, feeding the script through the Perl tidy utility is a damn good
thing to do because it takes it and formats it in a standardized style and makes it look a lot
prettier and more readable. I always do with mine. Okay, I fear greatly what would happen
what was that? We have somebody, somebody just joined the channel.
I'm just going to mute them if that's okay, sorry plumber user, but you're making
recording a show at the moment. So yes, but it's yeah, go on. You're going to deny my
recommendation of using the entirety, perhaps? No, no, not at all. I just very worried about what
would happen if I ran through some of my scripts. You see, I labored under the illusion that my
my Perl food was improving, but then I asked Dave here for a problem with some regular
expressions to do this ISO 8601 duration thing and then I realized how far from that goal I have
drifted. So I want to walk through your script and don't worry, I know everybody, this is relatively
short scripts, it won't be that painful. And hey, if it is that painful, the reason you're listening
to this show is because you didn't sit down on the mic and record the show and send it in. Yeah,
so don't complain to us. Thank you very much. Anyway, Dave, your script starts with hash
exclamation mark slash user bin Perl. I think we get that, bash scripts, the first line defines
the bash script. Now, then what you have is 28 lines of comments, which are bullet. The file,
what is called the usage, what is called the description options, some notes about just
author and copyright and stuff. So tell me, do you start off with that first or do you,
where does that come? Is that the last thing you do or the first thing you do?
Firstly, first thing, because I use this Perl plugin, which is completely forgotten
number three. Oh, Perl support, it's called. I did talk about my episode about the in plug-ins.
It's a simple matter to simply open up, open a window and say,
bung the standard template in there and for a program. And you get a script template like this,
comment template like this, I mean, and another thing is if you wish, because you can modify
the template to your own desires. Yeah, okay, yeah, perfect. And you, yeah, but you start off
them before how knowing what you're going to code and not just sit down and try and hack something
like I do. Well, okay, the real answer is at the point, point before I actually sit down with
an editor, I would probably try writing some stuff on the command line, because Perl can be
involved from the command line. If you type at the command line, Perl's based minus E and then
open quote, single quote, preferably, the stuff you type between the single quotes is a little
Perl script. So if you're playing around with experimenting with the regular expressions, which
are the nastiest things to prepare, it's often a brilliant thing to do just to try out your ideas
through that. That means, you know, with me, I get you. So, for example, I did, when I was
designing the regular expression here, I did that using the Perl minus E function and then simply
put an example of a duration time spec into a variable and through it at the regular expression
to see what happened. So it was a fair bit of 10, 15 minutes of playing around like that before,
before I actually resorted to editing something. Okay, so then everything else is just a wrapper
around the regular expression that you've written. Effectively, yes, yes. I just heed the regular
expression into the file and then start structuring some Perl around it and played with it from there.
Now, we're as far as line, oops, line 30, which is use 50101. Does that mean you must use that
version of Perl 5010? That means that one will, that one will be greater. Okay. Yeah, that one will
be higher. So then the use strict and use warnings, I think those are related to stopping you
do shortcuts. Yes, you have to declare variables, strict means declare or variables before you use them.
Perl is very, very easy going about these things. I hate that personally, I much sooner declare
everything, be rigorous about it. And the warnings just, just enables the warning level.
Yeah, sorry. That's part of the standard template that I just used to create, create
Perl scripts. That's what it is. I suspected that as obviously it's a pure and wordable location.
I'm surprised you don't use dumper as all are, is your Perl food way beyond the user?
Well, I wouldn't, I don't want to load modules into a script that I'm not going to use.
If I was going to use it, yes, but I mean, I could add it as part of the template and comment it out,
but I don't really want the script to be loading stuff that it doesn't need.
If a plan, if a plan to use it for debugging, then yes, but not otherwise.
Now, we need to explain to people here, there's a whole goal of additional modules that you can
load into Perl to basically do everything you want. And there's a site out there called CPAN,
which contains all these modules. So rather than reinventing the wheel, I think the general
rule of thumb is you should, you should not reinvent the wheel. You should go to CPAN and get
your stuff, bring it in and reuse that. Did I get that operator?
You did indeed, yes, it's one of the great strengths of Perl. There is a huge archive of
libraries modules that you can include in a script. And I would be extremely surprised if you
couldn't find anything that you need already done out there. Yes, that's where you declare them
at the beginning of your script. So we're at line 34, so you're going to say my dollar duration,
and the dollar duration, the dollar stands for scalar. Scalar variable, yes, is like a,
and he, Larry Wall picked the dollar because it looked like an S, so you would know it was a
scalar. Did you know that? Yes, and he picked an S for an array because it has, it looks like an
S, an A sign for array, and he picked a percent for a hash because it looks a bit like a H.
I didn't know all of those. No, no, no. And that's usually as far as I get into Perl books,
because there's also another excellent cartoon, you know, like that I've seen for webcomics,
where it goes. Here are two ducks. Add one duck is three ducks. And then using the same logic,
logarithmic for n over x, y, z, you know, really complicated algorithm. The note underneath is,
this is, this is how most computer books are written. The, you're really simple first two paragraphs,
and then the dumps dies really deeply in, which is why you sound as teachers at Perl,
it's actually quite good. But only I digress. It's not part of, but I'm not called it.
It's true. What you said is true, though. Okay, so you just have some other stuff. My sign,
which is a plus or minus, or which, yeah, I guess you're going to do that. Now, I want to go
onto your clearing an array here of labels. Yep. And you use in this QW thing, which I have not used
ever before, believe it or not, seen it used. So years, months, days, hours, minutes, seconds,
and correct me from wrong. What the QW does is puts quotes, comma, quotes, comma, quotes, comma,
quotes, comma, comma. Why have I not used that before? Am I completely thick?
It's a, it's a wonderful shortcut. It's definitely something to be, to be used. I'd recommend
you do so. And, but you see, I think what happens with me is I start off coding without any,
just rambling, you know, pick a piece of code here or hack it there, or I need another variable.
I'll put it up, quotes, comma, quotes now. And then I need another one. I'll pick it up and just
put it up. You know, it starts off as being one. And then it expands. Yeah, I know. What you see
with my coding is I'm incredibly finicky and the control freak when it comes to this sort of stuff.
So I have to keep going over it and tidy it up and make it prettier. So you've seen the result
of much purification here. Oh, so it's worth it though, because when you come back and look at it
later on, it's clearer and cleaner. And then you can probably hack lumps out of it and stick it
in another script easily. And there you are. You've got the result of your previous tidying already
appear to it. Yeah. And then actually this is, this is specifically really why I wanted to do
this show. It's not about necessarily about pearl. It's about making pearl, you know, essentially this
is a, a beautiful script. I spend quite a lot of the last few weeks looking at not beautiful
scripts because I've written myself. And then Dave sent this thing over to me and I nearly was
I was I was very impressed and very happy to get it because I've answered my question when I was
actually nearly crying. We got the how little time I took you to write it and how pretty and
useful it was at the end. Yeah, yeah, well, there you go. Let's see. We'll move on. So what
what you're doing is you're defining the labels and you're defining the fields which is going to
be interesting in a minute. And something new I see in this version is you're defining a hash
of ISO duration. It's it's not for any great nothing very important. It's merely me messing around
and showing how it might be nice to stick all this into a hash with labels on it. And if you look
a bit later on there's an example of how it's how it's done. So I was there they're just I was
going to write some notes around this and say here's how you do this if you ever need to do it.
I prefer using hashes over over I will we'll come to we'll come to this. I just need to remember
to to talk about this. Okay, so then we go down line 30 skipping over the commons which are
really useful. We've got 35 and 36 now you're going to do two regular expressions here. And we're
specifically even though the reason for this script is that I was having trouble with this. Well
I consider a fairly complex regular expression. I don't know if you degree or not. It's moderately so
taken while he's down. Well you know you're if you if you delve into regular expression you'll find
some some that will just completely blow your head off. Yes you will. So this is this once you get
to it. It's actually not that hard to do. Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong the first one you're
checking for an integer which is slash d plus. So that is I need to just with zero or more one or
more. There has to be one or more one of that slash d means digit and the plus that follows it
means one or more. Okay hold on to that talk now because later on I need to check for a digit
with the years in front of it. Okay, so and you're looking for a fraction which you define as
any square bracket zero dash nine so square bracket which means any number zero to nine. Why not
use the slash d then there? No particular reason actually. No particular reason why not. I'm not I
think that I know what it was. I was actually that was that was me just being being a bit silly
there because I was actually going to include the decimal point within the within square brackets.
So not hyphen nine will stop would mean it's quite happy to accept the digits not to nine in
that full stop. And then I thought oh no actually that's not very good because we need there to be
only one decimal point where that would have allowed any number of them. So so I changed it but
I didn't yeah that that should be tidy. That's Mr. a tidying pass. One is only human of course.
Okay so you guys what we have now in mind because I've cracked us from people with
men's profile is slash D plus so meaning one or more digits. And then we have parentheses open
parentheses question mark colon or escape. So like backslash period or full stop backslash D plus
close parentheses question mark. Okay so digits plus and then in the in between the two brackets
is take that store that as a variable later yes. In between the parentheses use that as a variable.
No no no. Here's the issue here when you put parentheses around an regular expression or a part
of a regular expression what that means is you want to capture the stuff that matches that bit
of the regular expression. Yes. So something something when the expression is fired up we'll grab
piece of the text that's fed to it. But there are times when you want to enclose things and then
apply some function to them and you don't want your brackets to be capturing so they're called.
Oh yes. This this expression open parentheses question mark colon followed by stuff and the
close parentheses means I want you to bracket these so that they're a unit but not use the capturing
process. Yeah. And the reason for that is because in this particular expression we want to say
we're looking for a digit one or more digits followed by a full stop followed by one or more
digits or just a straight digit. I mean the decimal here could either be something with a decimal
point and some following digits or not. So we want to put a put the the non capturing parentheses
around the dot other digits and the question mark after it means that it's option. So it applies
to that whole bracketed expression. So so the reason you put it in brackets in the first place
right assuming that is removing this capturing thing which was what I was referring to put
them into a variable. So it says then the whole thing is slash D plus so I mean one digit plus
so that'd be the before the fraction part. And then they then it just says these three characters
open brackets question mark colon is just to say this is evaluate this is one unit.
Yes exactly. And then this escape dot means don't use the dot as a this or more characters
which is it as a regular dot followed by a slash D which is digits where there has to be one.
Close the bracket. Close the question. Close the brackets meaning that evaluation. So what you're
saying in there is a dot with one or more digits would be required if I didn't have the final
question mark at the end. Yes. Yes. Okay. It allows that to be optional. Now people driving along
on the law more perhaps brain has just blown up because because of this we strongly advise that
you follow along with this in fact we should put this in the as the title of the show.
Well see now what I've done in the show notes that I've started drafting right yeah but
well two things two things to say here. Number one is the script itself is available for
for download it will it's up on Gatorius and the URL of it is in the in the show notes right so
you can grab your own copy of it when you sit and gaze at it while you're listening to the show
if you want to follow this through. The other thing I've done is in the show notes I've actually
started on a little tutorial about how to how to knit a regular expression or what I do to knit
a regular expression anyway. So I'm trying to sort of explain step by step how I arrived at the
expression that's going to follow. How did I do it? Well a simple way to approach this sort of
stuff I always find is don't get too bogged down in the detail right we've got a thing here where
you've got to have a P starting expression then it's followed by one or more digits and a Y
but maybe not you don't have to put that in if all you want to do is express the thing in days
then you can put P number D and that will express the number of days you can emit that bit entirely
and just put the T portion and then number of hours or minutes or second so all of these things
are optional and as you start to think of all the possible ways of expressing that your brain
explodes so yes the way I did it was simply to write a simple regular expression that says
taking the an example of one of these duration things with all of the fields filled in how do you
write an expression to match it so my expression just went P some numbers Y P some number
followed by some numbers M etc yeah it's hard to express in words it's why I've tried to write
some notes about it and then I went over that okay well from there I need to capture bits of it
because as it was it wasn't being captured so put some brackets around the bits that want captured
and then some of these bits are optional so put some of these special non-capturing brackets
around that lot and put a question mark on the end to make them optional and and so on and so
forth so gradually it was built up layer by layer you with me I am completely with you so say we
were to do this with something simpler like an email address and you would first of all start with
writing jewel as example.com try and capture that and then you might approach that say it's a
string of letters followed by an ad followed by a string of letters but hang on no it's more than
letters so stick some numbers in there as well in the in the in the brackets that you're using to
match it say and then you say oh no hang on you can also have hyphens in there so bang them in as
well oh you can also have dots in there put them in can you have a plus is that valid you're not
yes it is valid but by some people's definitions of mail addresses and so on put what was that
if you can't use that a lot yes yes it's valid it's valid but a lot of miles servers don't
don't accept it it used to be a standard I used to use it a lot because it's a great way of
putting variance on your address it so if you sign up to a mailing list you put plus
something rather on the end of your your normal address and then you know it's come from the
mailing list and you can filter it easily on the basis of that but some mail service Microsoft
particularly mail mail just exchange does not like it I think you have to do stuff to switch it on
okay that's a buy the buy on you yeah what you're seeing is we take the complicated thing we break
it down start with something and then work up build your way up let well let me express it a
different way when I was when I was learning to to to write programs and I was actually teaching
I was running an evening class at an education evening class many years ago in Pascal and there
was a book that had come out at that time written by a couple of guys at Glasgow University
Computers Science Department and they were using the technique or stepwise refinement so you start
with your specification possibly on a bit of paper in a simple possible form you know program read
some data do some stuff with it writes write and answer that's your program then you look at each
piece of it and you say well what does that actually mean and you then expand it into maybe now you
can actually start writing some statements in your in your language and and then you take each each
non expanded piece of that and and refine that so you're going through it step by step refining
it layer by layer it's it's it's not a it's not a well regarded methodology these days but I think
it should be personally because it's a method I use but yeah I end up a crap called and you end up
with beautiful calls I guess I'm missing a step somewhere along well maybe maybe I polish more I
don't know yeah that could be it all right um let's continue on with the so you've defined two
variables which are actually what they how to do a regular expression on the integer and on a
fraction one thing I should say hold on before you move on yep that these things are enclosed in
qr brackets qr means this is this another thing like qw but it means this is a regular expression
what it does is it causes the burl interpreter to compile the regular expression at that point in
time but you can then go and uh bandy this thing around and use it in other other contexts um we
could get into what's compiler what's a compiled regular expression and what's not but uh I'm not
even sure I could answer that very well uh moment but uh uh let's leave it as a marker that that's
that's quite a powerful feature of the poem and that's why I've used it there okay cool uh of course
that fact completely uh went over my head uh there you go there you go so now you have the
real regular expression where you're bringing in all of these together sub parts of regular
expressions um you're wrapping this in the qr which obviously is a compiled
again you might wonder why the hell did I put it there because the regular expression is to be
used in an if statement because we're gonna check things against you know does it match this
regular expression or not well the reason is because if you put it in the if expression it looks
absolutely nightmarish I think I really like to generate these things as a compiled
statements somewhere else where I can you know fiddle about with it and make it look pretty
and then can use it later on in the and possibly more than once um elsewhere in the in the script
yes it does actually look and actually that explains uh those explains one of the questions
because you have uh while we we'll get to it later on um how you're using it how you were able to
avoid using it um okay cool no that explains that okay now within this one you have open brackets
question mark x closed bracket what's that hello make expressions have the capability of
lots of extra gobbins which is which is um which is not available in many other regular
expression environments um uh which you can put within the expression so they're sort of
pragmas and uh an extensions and so forth um simpler regular expressions you can simply put
normally put slashes around your your regular expression um so slash some some expression slash
followed can be followed by modifier so the very there are a lot of modifiers one of them is i
which means all of that regular expression don't care about the case of anything you match in it
uh the one that i'm using here is x which means the regular expression can be formatted with spaces
in it comments in it laid out with new lines in it and look generally made to look prettier you
you can either stick that at the end after the close um curly bracket or you can stick it at the front
in this format using the the the fancier version i love this because this is this i think this
this regular expression would actually give somebody a heart attack if they if they looked at it is
now if it was all if it was all on one line yes it would give you it would definitely you would have
a hell of a job to work out where one sub expression began and and the next ended and so forth
so for those not following along reading the script there's 11 lines of this regular expression
which includes variables that we have already defined previously which we have discussed
before and each of those lines are kind of filled out in a nice column so tabed in you have
the regular expression tab the comment and exactly what each part of the regular expression
does so it's really really tidy really really easy to read and i wish more people would do this
so that's line 54 line 55 is uh sharrott's open brackets open square brackets plus minus
close square bracket question mark close bracket now let me assume a string begins with the
optional sign so the uh sharrott is a start of line correct yeah and i i think that's the correct
word for like the chinese has type symbol and then the square brackets are a plus and minus symbol
followed by a question mark and the question mark means it may be there are not one oh one oh zero
one or zero yeah okay proceeding expression yeah got you and you're enclosing that in a regular
bracket and nothing special about those those are capturing brackets those are capturing so that
means now the percent one it is percent one isn't it uh yes in these go this is captured and what's
it must be a magic variable because i'm not assigning a variable name to it
oh this pearl is very flexible this an aphorism that goes with with pearl is a t w a m i i can't
remember what it is there's more than one way to do it whatever the initial letters are of that
Tim Whitty or something people would pronounce it um there's there's always multiple ways of
achieving a thing in pearl um this this um this particular one is um well when you are when
you're capturing elements in a regular expression uh yes you're quite right they go somewhere um
they can go into what you could effectively call magical variables that are sort of behind the
scenes that you can you can access after you've applied the regular expression to to the string
that you're working with um but you can also make it return a a list um a list of of items which you
then assign to a list of variables or to an array um a bit later on the if this is what you're
going to do this is it uses the assign to to list type of uh and this is kind of what confused me
area on because i was using the percent one percent two percent three which isn't really handy if
you need to add in another line that you missed because then you need to change the numbers
yes yes yes you better not to do that if you can help it so assign directly to variable names
that you know are an array yes okay that that's that's by far the best way of doing it with
it not again all right so the next line is an easy one it's got the letter p now i don't know if
that p should be i've always seen there's another case p but i would need to read the spec to see
whether it would be yes i don't know i assumed all these letters were were uh
uppercase and if they're working do you would put it you would not put it in the bracket because you
don't want to capture it you just follow by follow up with a nigh um you can how would
it make sense instead of you can do that thing where you put brackets around it with a question mark
and an i uh i think not followed by anything i can't remember now what what follows what follows the
modifier yeah or you could just you could simply modify the whole string because you probably don't
care about if you don't care about the case of that you probably don't care about the case of
anything else but yeah you'd probably you'd probably ignore case in the whole string the whole
regular expression yeah true no okay cool cool but this is there's another example of meh let's
let me check the spec do it step by step by step as what you're saying yes yes okay yes and then we
go on to the next line which one two three four five five more five lines are very similar
so don't get worry pox the open parentheses colon sorry question mark colon what do we say that
was non capture was this is an enclosure but a non capturing non capturing enclosure non capturing
parentheses okay then we have which follows on two parentheses surrounding the int which was the
slash the plus from before which we compiled in regular expression yep yeah um so what do you say
in there and then followed by the letter y close parentheses close question mark so the non capturing
bit is the y and the capturing bit is the int for you yes yes and the exact same lines repeated
for month days hours and minutes and in there we have one thing you've missed though
you you assume that the closing the last question mark was some some are balancing the first one
well it isn't I'm afraid it's it's it's to make what optional it makes the whole of that that expression
from the first parenthesis to the last optional because your your um yes duration might
emit the year spec completely absolutely yes yes correct so the in order so a non capturing
uh parenthesis is just terminated with a regular presentices without anything yes yes perfect
it's it's now you're doing a phone uh funky one here for the time because you're encasing the
whole time thing in and non capturing parentheses as well yes with an optional with an optional
character mark because the whole yes the whole time the whole the whole time thing might not exist
and then if it if it does then there must be a t to start it absolutely yeah yeah okay I get that
and then the fraction is the fraction regular expressions just before the seconds and that is more
to do with the specification than all of this okay perfect now halfway through the scripts folks hope
we haven't put all those truck drivers to sleep wake up wake up okay now we're at line 70 if you're
following log did the did the the riveting news here on hpur and we're two minutes overdue for
the community news to start but asher will plow on ahead nobody's online okay then we have duration
equals shift right now and now she shift means something completely different huh I won't ask no one
asks anything from a peck on the cheek to a snog all right okay there you go there you go that's
the best definition I heard from a good friend of words so this is obviously taking it from
where now at the argument string yep where did the arguments we happen to find arguments because
this magically appear out of the door well when the script runs as with anything that you run from
the command line in the next unit system you can follow your your invocation with any number of
arguments which are parsed by the the shell and fed to the the script for the program or whatever it
is so this is the pulled mechanism for saying get me the first one of these things that they're
presented as an array to the to the script and this is where there's more than one thing to do it
because you've got that dollar arg a capital A or g yep which I have been using because I'm an idiot
apparently well it's it's a way to do it's another way to there's many ways of doing things in
in pearl this is this is the the simple but simple to look at complex to explain method of doing it
but yes it's shift when in this context the top level of the script shift means get the arguments
from the command line and pearl is very very much that that the context it's very much
dependent on the context yes because if we were doing a loop through a an array for instance the
shift then will refer to the array as opposed to arguments correct it can do yes and it can also
mean different things in a subroutine yes which is why I think I think it means an
equivalent of the arg dollar because then it was very clear to me yes well I wouldn't argue with
you because to me that's that's a sort of shorthand and it me it's very meaningful to me because
I've done this so many times but but when I was an early pearl programmer I was I wouldn't have done
that probably I just thought nah I'm going to be puzzled by what the hell that means when it comes
to rereading it well what will concern me more is that if I put it in the wrong place then I
suddenly I'm shifting arguments from the from the motor program as opposed to the loop that I'm
going through or or the loop I then pick up and put it into a subroutine because I want to make
it clear and then suddenly shift the context of shift changes well it's actually quite logical
shift at the top level means shift from the the argument array to the program shift in a subroutine
means shift from the argument array given to the subroutine shift with an argument itself
an array argument itself means shift off this array okay it's it's it's pretty logical yes yes
to me anyway okay folks just as a reminder here that you can send in your own
programs and talk about them for hours if you wish as well anyway you were going to say
oh I was really going to say that this wild loop is is there so that you can feed the script a whole
bunch of these expressions and parse them all rather than fire it up multiple times with one at
one at a time I did not know this that was why yes the would have been under this is actually a very
very clean and elegant way of getting parameters through I must say yes money pennies and how do you
yes the other thing is there's a along with it there's a file of example expressions so all you
need to do is to is to put a cat statement on the command line with with them as a command so that
that's the contents of that file are simply offered as a command line to the script when it runs
so it's pretty common bash convention yes and if you want more information on the cat command you
should go back to Dan wash goes minutes in the shell series here okay print duration nothing
special here they variable duration which will print whatever the first parameter in this case
goes we'll run on to it the first time then we skip over and then we get to the to the good
misimpedated if open brackets space open bracket dollar sign comma a percent feels close bracket equals
open brackets duration space equals tilde dollar or e for regular expression close bracket close brackets
open squiggly brackets I don't know what that is open squiggly bracket for the if statement yeah now
question number one here is the sign how do I know that they if the sign is is optional you said
so will it not then okay well I want to explain to people I want to ask you this is my assumption
of starting over on the right here you have duration equals tilde regular expression and the
equals tilde is the format saying this is a regular expression so all that junk
perform it on the variable duration which is the first argument because we just shifted it correct
enough that's right it's it's supplying the regular expression to the contents of duration
okay and those two prejudices following those explodes that out to being one one
wasn't the course one quote comma so we had a year one year one month one day T one hour one
minus one second it would be a quarter one comma one comma one comma one comma one and that
would pipe back into the other side of the equal sign correct or not yes yes it essentially correct
yeah it's that expression the regular expression application there is operating in what pearl calls
list context the fact in a bracket means I'm a list give me an answer back as a list so
come back as a list forget the commas because a list is a sort of entity of items in a in a row
if you like a stack or something would it be an array yes effective yes yes yes and the the
equals that precedes that so effectively you've got two list expressions you've got a bracket
thing with the regular expression stuff in it and you've got a bracketed thing before that with
variables in it so it says on the right hand side generate a list and on the left hand side
stuff the results of that list generation into these variables okay so the first item from the list
goes into sign anything left goes into at fields which is the array so you're the you're filling
a whole set of things together and why did I split them for people you and I know I just want
to make an explanation here for people who are following along I don't know why you get this far
if if you're not into programming don't know why you get this far if you are into programming but
let me hey it's our show we can do what we want more live on the edge a array would be a bit like a
chest of drawers I imagine so you know you put a value into one chest of drawers and then underneath
there's another one underneath there's another one underneath there's another just that's how I
liked to think of it now perfectly fine concept yes okay now stack of pigeonholes or how do you like
to stack a pigeon holes not really unless it's a two-dimensional array correct yes yeah picked up
something don't know what it was for the picked it up it's on the underside of my shoe okay now
have I found a bug in your program because you have on one hand you're going to do all this funky
stuff so you're going to get all these values multiple values and then you're going to put them
onto the other side and the first one you're going to assume a sign yeah and I just set it as I
set it out loud I just realized that even if these things are optional it still returns an empty
position it returns it returns beautiful they don't know value in Poe which is called undefined
so therefore this chest of drawers is already defined the size of it is already defined by
the regular expression because by the number of capturing elements correct in the regular
expression yes it almost sounds like I know what I'm doing and you know for a moment there I have
but the beauty of this is I recorded it and I can prove to myself later on I didn't understand
at the time all right so sign you just want to put in there into a separate one itself rather than
in in fields yes yes because because it's easier it is it's it's not a it's not a field of a date it's
a it's a separate entity yeah okay and now you're doing a really cool parallel thing which I must say
I did a little happy dance I knew about it but I did a happy dance when it finally hit home
and it is signed so the variable sign is equal to the plus character on less sign which is
which means if the sign isn't filled in or is empty or undefined then you make a plus
by default yep that's right it is beautiful so it defaults to plus yeah and this again just this
formatting of unless something do something or die unless blah is kind of the opposite of the if
it's another example of this plural do with many different ways and it's also it's also a linguist
view of the world I always think because you know in English you say if and you also say unless
so makes sense that the programming language would do that as well yeah but then I have the
I struggle them with my purl you know pick a pick a way of doing it and be consistent with
consistency of coding because sometimes I will do you know for the same loop I will do it with an if
statement and otherwise and sometimes I'll do it with an unless statement yeah what I'm
telling to do now myself is I use an unless if it's a very simple one-liner and I use an if if
it's if there's going to be multiple options and well I would I tend to use that the rule that if
it makes sense if it's meaningful then then use the unless you know if you say unless some test then
do something sometimes that's more meaningful than if not some tests then do something it's it depends
it depends on on the context I think but the fact you've got both options options of doing optional
ways of achieving it is one of the things I like about Perl yeah but okay so we're checking
essentially what we're doing is it is checking here if a variable is defined or not and yes quite
often when I'm looking at data I'm checking to see whether it's defined or not if it's defined I want
to do something if it's not defined I also want to do something but with that unless thing you can't
go into four different lines of things it's it's one single line you can you can you can you can
it's just you can use it instead of an if just your if test is reversed you put it at the front
yeah yeah yeah so you can say unless brackets dollar x equals one equals equals one
and that's the same if it's not yeah but you can you then therefore like if I want I want to
set x equals to one I want to print out something I want to run another variable oh not in your
subroutine I want to do something else which you can do with an if statement because you enclose
it in the currently bracket yes same with the nice oh but I haven't seen people do that well I
suppose a lot of people don't like it I personally find that quite fun but it depends on the
context it depends you would only use it I think if if it was appropriate you know if if you've got
a if you've got a variable that you're using as a Boolean flag where you know something like unless
unless light is on then put the light on or something and that if if it reads well in a sort of
garbled English form then sometimes that's more meaningful I believe okay yeah but the only
thing that I fear is that you are you reading it if it goes to multiple sentences and then the
unless is at the end you're assuming that it's doing all these things with the natural fact oh yeah
sorry about that this is a negative statement oh yeah it's true it's true yes that the traps of
booleans and the the knots and the the ants and the organs of it are still there regardless
yeah but they're up you have to trade carefully yeah you you will have a bracket of code and it's only
at the end you find out that it's it's it's not an if statement it's a known unless statement
hmm because on the other side okay fine we've sent enough time now the next caution and this is
the next line and correct me if I'm wrong here you're doing you're saying feels equals
a whole ghost stuff which we'll talk about later than feels the whole stuff stuff which we'll
talk about later is the map command which is between curly braces and then in between that we have
two other brackets which has got the words defined open brackets dollar underscore
close brackets question mark dollar underscore colon zero close brackets yeah so the whole thing is
the array feels is equal to the mapping of of feels where in you're doing and check on each
of the fields to see if they're defined and if not you put them to zero correct yes it's it's forcing
everything that's undefined to be zero so that you don't because because you actually want to
display these things and displaying undefined values causes problems yeah and it's very
it's a lot clearer yes but why not use just use the unless or not the unless but you know
the implicit statement you have it if like we had before if sign feels if just the variable name
then that just checks to see if the variable exists or not why use the point
um just a convention really just just in the deprecase just did you know that
I don't know whether it's because I will then read oh by the way the dollar underscore is this
magic I think notepad that people are allowed to use the kind of chocolate temporary chocolate
where you can throw a variable without and of course this is all in context as well now what does
the map command do pray the map command applies an expression to each element of an array so it's
a type of loop you could write this for this same thing by simply going through a loop which loop
through every element of the the array said is is it is it defined yes then okay you carry on
otherwise replace it to zero you try it in that way oh that's just a more a quicker and more
convenient way of doing it yeah which is why I've avoided it like the plague as well it's nice
one to get in handy as maybe and you're also using this other short form of if then statement
yes something that's that's a conditional expression I think it's defined as okay thanks
conditional expression so you've got this before the question mark which is the if it's if
time is equal to I guess that's the test there's a test yes followed by a question mark and then
you got the true branch and then the false branch so to separate by colon the test you is if it's
defined yes and then the question mark is if it's true then it's dollar underscore so it is what
it is if it is return yes yeah otherwise is put to zero the result of each iteration through the
the map loop implicit loop returns values which are then strung together and put into the fields
on the left hand side of the side which is what I want to talk to you about in a minute but this
again the whole purpose of the whole purpose of this show is kind of to explain to me why
you're picking this form of of code in this point because I always try to avoid this one
I prefer to go if then this then equals yes and I tend to do that on the on a if it's a short one
I'll put it in on a single line what it makes for ugly code it's um it's a matter of taste really
I think uh I've come my the first language I learned was alcohol 60 to give you some idea how old I
am probably um which you couldn't do anything other than build a loop with with with a with a test
inside it uh and um so you know that that was that was a fine convention um you could easily bring
that sort of logic to pull and do it in a case like this uh one of the nice features and shortcuts
of a poll is is this things like map and so forth and so I've just developed the the personal
convention of using them wherever it's appropriate now that I feel confident enough to do so um I
would use them I think I wouldn't advise anybody to force themselves to do this if they didn't feel
happy with it with it no no I understand but um again what I was trying to do in my own silly way
was uh be consistent in in the code and not mix it not mix a lot but that results in very very
ugly code whereas you've got very pretty looking code but you're mixing these conventions doing exactly
what I was trying to avoid doing but when you do it it makes for tidy code it's also using the
power of per I mean so long as you as long as you understand what what it's doing then
know that this this is one of the powerful features there will be some of the things in other
languages too and oh python's quite good at doing this type of thing where you take a list and
zap through it doing particular thing to stuff um within it so you know it's um it's it's it's
the feature and it's a okay desirable feature now this is uh I want to go back to to a question
as a phenomenal mind for some time if you go back to our chest of drawers so you have one drawer
stacked on top together what essentially you're doing here is you're going to take the value of the
years that I give in the argument so one more more more more and you're going to put the first one
in the top drawer which will be called zero yes the second one into the second drawer which
we call one and the whole right down and that array is called fields so we on the chest of drawers
we're writing in chalk fields at sign fields and then shelf zero shelf one shelf two three go away
now you're rolling in another chest of drawers and you're calling that fields uh no it's it's the same
one sorry it's the same one it's it's it's doing a juggling juggling act here it's it's grabbing
things out of the array and doing stuff to them and poking them back into the same array um
um how do you all labels you have labels sorry labels labels labels over the top so you have an array
so the fields one sorry is i'm not talking about the fields one i'm talking what you were doing
there to use our drawer analogy was you were using the map command to go through each of the drawers
check to see if there's something in there if there isn't put in a zero and if there is just go to
the next one so essentially that's what you're doing all right but now with this labels thing that
you're doing you're pulling in another chest of drawers and you're calling that at sign labels
and then in the first drawer which is drawer zero you're putting in the word years the second
drawer which is drawer one you're putting in months and so forth days hours minutes seconds
and then you're using by virtue of the fact that you know you're going to display these print them
off in a loop and you're going to go from zero to the end of the drawers so you're going to open the
pull out both drawers at the same time you're going to look in the first one and go one pull out the
second drawer and go year you're going to close those two go to the next two pull them out one
okay so that's kind of what's happening yeah you're talking here about the using two arrays and
using using the fact that they're the same size yes and yes then doing a loop from one to the
maximum and then using the second array as labels okay why not use that well you're talking about
this thing called ISO duration don't think you said that did you well no I'm more referring to
the other program the previous version of this which didn't have the the ISO duration thing oh okay
okay sorry you're talking about the the for loop yeah the for and we're going down to the for loop
at line 97 number skipping okay conveniently over the hash way of doing this which
to be honest I'm more comfortable with because the idea of maintaining two arrays in order because if
if you're doing some sorting on the first one your second one goes completely here by or so now
if you had four years before it's now three months it's four months you know what I mean yes well
let me you're trying let me try and pull pull it all together in the in the the latest version of
the script I'm using a hash merely as an example of how you could use a hash as a way of storing
together both the labels things like years month etc along with the value so you end up with a
with a structure that contains labels and values so that's quite a convenient way of doing things
however the problem the problem with using that is that when you come to display its contents
you probably want to display them in the order of years month days hours minute seconds
the way that hashes are put together the labels are not in any any particular order they're
in completely arbitrary order so if you if you simply cycle through the labels you have no
easy way of ensuring they'll come out in the right order absolutely so it could come out as
in our case one week one year one month whatever but that doesn't change the structure of the
does it mind you no the relationship before the label to the value sorry going yeah don't before
we go any further using our analogy on what a hash is before if we take a chest of drawers and we
put some and we get a marker and we write another chest of drawers not the other two that we have
on one side of the corner the other side of the room we've got a chest of drawers that's got all
the shelves of it and we call that what are we calling this ISO duration yeah and then on the
front of each of the drawers we're writing on the first one we're writing years and then the second
one we're writing the word month days hours minutes yeah so using that you can go to that hash
which is what's what's called in C called a structured something another kind of
so you can refer to specifically that hash and that's named value so you can go that hash hours
and go directly to that drawer without having to cycle through to that hash it's zero yes it's
called an associative array yeah yeah yeah that's right that's right okay so I use these all the
time because I find them far cleaner to work with then whereas the thing you were saying before
is I've got two arrays one of which have got labels and the other one's got fields and the only
reason that they're useful is that they're both positioned the same it's like having two
chests of drawers side by side with with the labels in one and the values in the other but it's
only the fact that they correspond one with the other that you've got you've got useful
useful knowledge there yes yeah but if you want to do yeah okay boss the phone you think about
hashes is they're multi-dimensional you can make the manuscript you're like so you can have
a drawer that has got that's called zero one two three more down along and then inside of that
you can have a shoe box that's got a word years on it and then say that's the value and then
you can sort through you can sort through zero to the end ignoring what the labels are and then
get the values if you want it yep but I don't do that either because usually I know exactly what
field I want to refer to yes you can make some pretty hairy structures within within poe but yes
that's for another day I'm sure yeah but it won't be for me all right because trying to get them
working with multi-dimensional arrays and references and references to hashes hashes is it gets
very hairy very quickly but I one thing I didn't know that you could do was just dump an array
of hashes like that using this one liner well that's why I did it it's it's it's referred to
as zipping together to to arrays into it into a hash I think I put right there just as a demo really
is you know what's what would be really useful if you would mind and you've done it for some
movie code is that you're using the plural terminology for for what you're doing because I find
it very difficult in plural to figure out what it is the terminology is that they're using to
describe the thing and by the time I figured out what the plural terminology is the thing that I'm
trying to find out I figured it out anyway because I've read so much stuff then I figure out what
the terminology is yes yes yes well we probably need a need need some show notes
to along with this that maybe explain some of this stuff I guess cool um yeah okay okay so now
you've assigned the sign to a single one and you've assigned ISO duration to labels and fields
oh that's really cool is there any particular reason do you think why hashes are just in
some random order and not um not ordered I think it was more memory efficient or something
from what I could read yes I think so um because it is a it is a hash table which is the result of
doing some rather rather funky mathematical analyses on the on the contents the whole concept
of associative arrays work that way you can't you can't be sure of the way in which things come
out and I think pearls gone even further with this and has ensured that the the order of
labels within a hash are always randomized between invocations of a script because it makes
the script less predictable if you're trying to hack it from outside yeah so yes okay so moving
yeah go on then we have the print if command as a whole print f command which is
all on directly from c if I'm not mistaken indeed yes yes and then we would have percent dash
seven s call on space percent six s new line called comma double call sorry double
call comma double call sign double call comma dollar sign quotation tell me what that is
that prints out in a formatted way in seven columns the string sign the minus seven means left
justify it always it would it would be right justified within the seven columns um and then
that's followed by a six um column uh string which is um right justified uh so you would see
see see so momentum yeah come on ahead right we're good we're good so you you will the reason for
that is because there's a further print f a bit later on that that uses the same format um for
printing out the values that we've fished out the the duration and um it just wants to do the line
up so the loop is simply stepping through the two arrays together using indexes into them because
their index from zero through to the the maximum number of elements within them and for each one
it prints out the contents of the label and the field so you see year number month and a number and
so forth now the first time you ever looked at something like this it it does look a bit like
rocket science so the but it's a standard c for loop actually it is it is yes the the only
difference is that dollar hash fields business which is pearls way of uh specifying the length of
the thing but that's not even pearls originally that's what bash does as well for for representing
length of things i think that that comes from from way back when and the dollar i plus plus
thing is is a c thing and it's it's all through unix okay so they inside the four of those uh
two parentheses and closing three portions of the loop you have the start they um they check to see
if it's the end and the uh implementation the first part is my dollar i equals zero and i took
me ages to figure out why people picked dollar i yeah well it's just again that's convention
it's i and j and k tended to be the variables just i think but because you see it in mathematical
expressions right okay so i equals zero double semicolon means traditionally in pearl a new line
is that actually a new line semicolon is merely a statement end you can put multiple statements on
a line in this structure of the for loop then it simply separates out the uh the components of
the the iterator of the for loop now that's a c convention i think okay and then the next thing is
for i which starts a zero is less than or equal to the number of fields uh and then the first one
it's not and the second one of not and then it goes up until six whether it's six or eight and then
it would be and then if semicolon and then i plus plus mean each time you do this thing increment i
because if you don't i will always remain at zero and you'll be in this loop forever indeed
how would you've done it more than one occasion so i wonder what when you press control c don't they
loop field pain anyways and then we have the print up statement using your percent dollar minus
seven s trick and then labels square bracket dollar i square bracket comma fields square bracket dollar
i square bracket and that so each time your labels and your field chester drawer on one hand you're
taking out zero from the label store and the other hand you're taking out fields from the
fields chester doors perfect and then we close the for loop we close the if statement and the if
statement we're still with us from three hours ago when you were driving through Cincinnati
the uh that is the regular expression itself so if the regular expression succeeded uh we've
done our thing which is we've stored them and we printed them all out and the else would
it be just simply print in validation and the final line almost final line is print a new line
and then we have the end of the while loop right otherwise if you had put in one duration space
another duration space another duration it will continue happily on and in the end we have
exit and at the very end you have one of your vim marker things it's a mode line it's it's an
instruction to the editor to say by the way this is a pull file etc etc tab stops shift with
expand tabs etc etc i won't go into that maybe that's for another podcast why have you picked
tabbing of four instead of two like that's the shift with that that's what you get when you
yeah that's what you get when you press the tab key that's not the size of a tab is merely the
what vim does to move you the number columns it uses to to to uh skip when you press the tab key
to line things up and i've used that because you know it used to be the convention that you
indented by three but three to be a nasty number is four yeah well it's it's uh i don't taste really
okay and one other question is why do you put your stark bracket uh curly bracket
on the same line as the statement and not directly underneath it again it's it's convention it's
it's style it is the recommended style uh if you go to the style gurus of pull um and if you feed
this particular script through old tidy it will it will enforce that particular rule um but again
you know it's it's convention you can break away from it if you want to the the real rule is
if you're writing scripts and you're in a team all writing scripts then use the same rules
throughout otherwise you get into those sorts of difficulties perfect div that has explained
to me that have been bugging me for a while and stuff you can't actually handle it because uh
it's it's convention system okay with that i think we should uh we're 40 minutes over so we're
now around the hour and 40 minutes oh my god uh we better stop now for the community news as ever
so anything else you want to add no that's me all right thank you very much and remember folks
we're running fairly low on the shows so if you want you can record something uh i think
yeah upload it uh if you look on for the information send an email to admin at hackupublicradio.org
or go on to augcast.com on irc.frino.net and ask anyone there and they will give you the
password for the ftb server uh with that tuning thank you very much again Dave uh thanks very
much for doing this and thanks very much for the um the instructions on how to be a better program
oh tune in tomorrow for another exciting episode all
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