hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr3203.txt

Episode: 3203
Title: HPR3203: The Paul Quirk show: Retro Computing
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3203/hpr3203.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-24 18:44:55

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3203 for Wednesday 11 November 2020. Today's show is entitled,
The Paul Quirk Show, Retro Computing. It is hosted by Paul Quirk
and is about 31 minutes long
and carries a clean flag. The summary is,
I discussed the hobby of Retro Computing in this episode.
This episode of HPR is brought to you by archive.org.
Support universal access to all knowledge by heading over to archive.org forward slash donate.
Music
Good day, good listener of Hacker Public Radio.
This is Paul Quirk, and you are listening to the Paul Quirk Show on Hacker Public Radio.
Today I'd like to talk to you about one of my all-time favorite hobbies,
Retro Computing and discuss why and how you might want to get into it.
First, you might ask yourself, why would anyone want to use old computers?
Shouldn't they be recycled into something else?
Well, for me, it's because I grew up with these computers, but I think if I didn't,
I still think each and every computer made during the microcomputer revolution of the 1970s and 1980s
represents a unique perspective that helps us understand how and why computers are the way they are today.
By and large, we didn't see the planned obsolescence that has become so common today.
Peripherals like disk drives and printers were very expensive, and so they were built to last.
It's no wonder that my Commodore 64's disk drives can still read and write many of my original disks
from the early 1980s just fine, while I struggle with trying to read DVD Rs that I had used for data backup in the late 1990s.
My 1701 monitor, also from the early 1980s, and was named after a famous enterprise spaceship,
still shows a razor-sharp picture with great color rendition and a day and age where my Samsung LCD TVs seemed to only last about a decade before failing.
The problem I have with my dot matrix printers today is sourcing replacement ribbons since printer manufacturers realized the insane profit margins on printer ink over ribbons.
Meanwhile, engineers had to figure out how to work around some hard limitations like very limited memory and processor clock speeds
by using chips that incorporated hardware sprites and could synthesize their own sounds, which gave characters to some of these old systems.
What is most interesting today is the culture that surrounds these old computers, a culture that keeps them alive and relevant today.
For example, my own Commodore 64 connects to the internet using the C64 NIC interface card which allows me to connect to BBS's that are still running today over the internet.
Yes, the BBS scene is alive and well, and some still even offer a dial-up connection.
I can use modern SD cards for storage using the UIEC. This makes it very easy to download content using my faster modern Linux PC to run on my Commodore 64.
The retro computing hobby is definitely a deserved slap in the face of our culture of planned obsolescence where we are being told to upgrade our handheld computers also known as smartphones every year.
If a Commodore 64 can remain relevant and functional today, the only reason to replace my cell phone on an annual basis is to make large greedy corporations insanely wealthy.
The first question you will want to answer is which retro computer platform should you choose?
There were numerous platforms in each one was incompatible with the other. For many people, it comes down to whatever computer they already own or whatever retro computer was given to them.
I say, never look a gift computer in the mouth. However, do be aware that certain computers see little to no support today and some require special cables and adapters to use them with peripherals, like monitors.
For example, the Amiga is a very popular computer because it was the wonder computer of the 1980s that stole the show from Apple's Macintosh.
However, the Amiga uses proprietary connectors for its disk drives and monitor and early Amiga's didn't come with a hard drive controller.
Fortunately, Amiga's usually come with at least one disk drive and GoTec is a popular option to replace the internal disk drive with a USB stick reader that can read disk images.
But unless you have an original monitor that works with the Amiga, you're stuck with the black and white composite output of the Amiga, which is less than optimal given that it has 4,096 different colors.
Now, there are plenty of hacks and options to use the Amiga with a modern monitor since the original ones can be hard to find and none were built to last as long as a famous Commodore 1701.
But you might find this is the tip of the iceberg of problems you might encounter.
Some have problems with clock batteries that have leaked and destroyed the circuit board they're attached to, while some later models had problems with capacitors that leaked and also destroyed their circuit boards.
This is generally more of a problem with computers that were built in the 1990s.
The other issue is the fact that the disk format is completely incompatible with everything else.
So unless you can get your hands on some original disks, you're going to be getting something like a GoTec floppy emulator drive for happy retro computing on this platform.
Another consideration is a classic Macintosh, like the Mac Plus.
The benefits here over the Amiga are that it comes with a built-in monitor display and an industry standard Scuzzy Controller.
And these computers were generally very well built with no issues with capacitors or battery leaks that I could find.
I mentioned the Mac Plus specifically because in my experience it's still affordable compared to other retro computers, even the Amiga.
And they're everywhere, thanks in part to the fact that they were used in many schools and in part to the fact that nobody in their right mind has the heart to throw any of them out.
I especially like the fact that they take up very little space and look good in any room of the house.
Like the Amiga, the disk format is incompatible with everything, but the GoTec floppy emulator doesn't support the Mac format, so you'll be looking at something like the BMOW floppy emulator.
However, since the Mac Plus comes with a Scuzzy interface, this opens up a lot of other options and possibilities to transfer files.
I think the biggest advantage of a retro computer like the Mac Plus over something like an Amiga or a Commodore 64 is that it doesn't need a lot of desk space and even comes with a handle on top to make it easy to put away when you're done with it or for bringing it to your friends place or to a good old fashioned retro computing party.
Okay, so moving on, the Commodore 64 remains a very popular option with many people because they're so common, easy to get, and they're easily modded.
For example, I don't need big peripherals like the 1701 monitor and 1541 disk drive to use my Commodore 64.
Some creative individuals have cracked open their vintage Commodore 64's and have installed the MIUI EC inside of them, and quite often the ROM that contains the disk controller is replaced with something like Jiffy DOS that makes accessing the files on the MIUI EC faster and easier.
Commodore 64 is all common to built-in RF modulator to connect directly to a TV, and there are inexpensive S video cables that connect right to the 64's monitor port,
making life very easy for the retro computing enthusiast.
The one thing to watch out for are the old power supplies. They are known for destroying Commodore 64's as they age. Fortunately, new ones can be easily bought or made.
Some people are even even making replacement chips, motherboards and cases from original molds for the Commodore 64, so it's really earned a lot of respect in the retro computing scene.
A nice alternative to the Commodore 64 is the Commodore 128. These can be more expensive and harder to come by, but may be worth the extra money and effort since they are really three computers in one, a Commodore 64, a Commodore 128, and CPM, which really makes them unique in the world of computers.
All of the peripherals for the Commodore 64 will work on the 128, but to take advantage of the 80 column display, you will need to use a CGA compatible display or a Commodore monitor like the 1084 that can support both the 40 and 80 column modes.
To use CPM disks, you will need the 1571 disk drive that was designed for the Commodore 128, which could cost you more than the 128 itself.
The MIUI C does work with the Commodore 128, but it will not boot into CPM mode.
If you're lucky, you might come across a Commodore 128D, which put the computer motherboard in a case with a disk drive separate from the keyboard, although I personally prefer the design and aesthetics of the 128 with the motherboard built into the keyboard.
Some consider the Commodore 128 to be the ultimate 8-bit computer because it's a Commodore 64 and a CPM machine to very popular platforms back in the day, which will give you access to a huge library of software, while the Commodore 128 mode in both 40 and 80 column modes provides an excellent version of Microsoft Basic, a machine language monitor, a faster processor, and running GOS on it in 80 column mode,
shows just how competitive it was with 16-bit computers like the Macintosh of the time.
As a bonus, the power supply for the Commodore 128 is a significant improvement over the one that came with the Commodore 64, and to my knowledge hasn't been known to kill any Commodore 128's.
An affordable alternative to the Commodore 64 is the VIC-20. All of the peripherals like disk drives and printers will work on the VIC-20, but it has the added advantage of being a lot less expensive, and the older VIC-20's with the 9-volt power supply don't have the failure problems of the later power supplies found with the Commodore 64.
Small displays work very well with the VIC due to its low resolution screen.
Plug in something like the community created Megacart, and you will have everything you need for a VIC.
If you can get your hands on a first run of the Megacart, you will find some programs written by yours truly, including Sudoku and Towers of Hanoi.
If you want to go even smaller and more convenient, the TRS-80 Model 100 is an example of an affordable and plentiful retro computer that is actually one of the very first laptop computers to have been made and has quite a following today.
Imagine sitting at a local coffee house, writing your next podcast for Hacker Public Radio on one of these.
This was made by Radio Shack, which created an entire line of computers named TRS-80.
While the Model 100 was their portable laptop unit, there are the color computers for home use, as well as computers like the Model 3 that incorporated a monochrome monitor and disk drives that were made for business use.
Besides the Model 100, I don't have a lot of experience with these, but apparently the color computer 3 has quite a following.
Then there is the Atari ST line of computers. One big advantage of these is they use a standard MS-DOS format for their floppy disks. However, like Amiga, they have their own way of displaying video, so some sort of adapter may be needed if you can't find an original monitor to go with your ST.
One advantage to going with the ST is that computers like the 520 ST are common and still relatively cheap compared to other computers, but there's still a lot of fun with a lot of great games available for them.
These are a good option if you're into music because they also include a MIDI interface and some of the software that was available for them was really professional grade.
Now if you want to go real-old school, there is the Commodore PET. These are big, heavy, hard to come by and cost considerably more than other vintage computers.
They have their own disk drive interface, but they're compatible with cassette tape drives that can be used on the VIC-20 Commodore 64 and Commodore 128.
Many people today want a Commodore PET just for the aesthetic, while others consider themselves computer historians who want this beauty from the 1970s.
Quite a few people got theirs for free back when various school boards are trying to get rid of them, but I'm certain that with all the metal that was used to make them, many of them probably ended up at the scrap metal dump.
If you want to see a computer that really was built to stand the test of time, look no further than the Commodore PET.
A more affordable old school option these days is the Apple II, which was a direct competitor to the Commodore PET and arguably a better design overall.
Apple IIs had a bus where you could add all sorts of cards to expand its capabilities.
Granted, most of these cards are to give it graphics and sound capabilities as well as a disk drive interface, a lot like early IBM PCs did.
But there are interesting models in this lineup. My personal favorite has always been the 2C and its clone, the Laser 128 by VTEC.
Yes, Apple had to contend with clones back in the day, but I guess that's what you get when you base your computer design on an open design that was created by the Homebrew Computing Club.
If you can get your hands on an Apple IIGS, you might see where Steve Jobs was steering Apple in a wrong direction with the Macintosh line
as I and many Apple II lovers feel the 2GS was the natural progression for Apple and they probably would have avoided going nearly bankrupt had they made the 2GS and Mac replacement.
Fortunately, Apple fired jobs and incorporated the best features of the 2GS into the Macintosh line in order to save the company.
Another option is a vintage CPM computer. In the 1970s, CPM was what DOS became in the 1980s an industry standard operating system.
For this reason, the Commodore 128 was often regarded as being too late to the game because it came out at a time when most people were trading in their CPM computers for DOS computers.
Even still, there were some really interesting models and designs from companies like Capro, Osborne, Eagle and other names that haven't been around for decades.
One easy option for retro computing is just to get a vintage 8088, 8086 or 286 IBM PC or clone.
It's pretty easy to get the files over and there are plenty of modern-day solutions to connect these to modern monitors, hard drives, SD cards, though the prices can be all over the place.
Some people collect only the IBM PS2 while others stick with specific models of the IBM PS2 line while others still prefer the original IBM Model 5150.
There is plenty to choose from. I would be remiss if I didn't mention computers like the Time X in Claire, the Texas Instruments TI 994A, the 8-bit Atari's like the beautiful 800XL.
There are so many options out there. You could easily go down a rabbit hole with any of them and not emerge for years.
Some people like to find something unusual like the Commodore 16 and spend their time sourcing original peripherals for that system,
creating something really unique. So now you're probably wondering where should you start with any of these options in this hobby.
One place many people start on their journey into the hobby of retro computing is eBay.
Now if money's no object, you can probably find whatever you want on eBay. However, you might not even know what you want and eBay could be risky.
One thing I recommend is putting the word out there to all your friends and family that you are looking for old computers to mess around with.
I've done this and while I've ended up with old PC compatibles that were just junk, I also managed to score two of my favorite computers, the Commodore 128 and the Toshiba T5100.
Another source is local thrift stores and flea markets.
My Vic20 came from the local flea market and I found useful peripherals like the Scuzzy Omega Zip Drive, a compact model M keyboard and even unopened boxes of discs at local thrift stores.
Then there are local user groups. I bought an entire Commodore 64 system from the Toronto Pet User Group for a very affordable price.
Then there are meetings and conventions like the world of Commodore.
I've scored printers and destroys from these events as well as old computer magazines and other hardware components.
Now to be fair, retro computing is not without its problems. Many older systems have failed or will fail.
There is a chance you could spend a lot of money on a classic computer system only to find it stops working a month later and the chip you need to make it work again is no longer available.
This is a reality for many people and you may not wish to deal with the hassle.
This is one of the reasons why some people go for something like an old PS2 system. They were built to last and many of the components can be found today.
For popular systems that are commanding higher prices today like the Commodore 64 and Amiga, there is a community that produces new motherboards, cases, keyboards, power supplies and even chip replacements.
If you really don't want to deal with a hassle of soldering and assembly, there are products like the ZX Spectrum next that are modern takes on those vintage classics.
At the other end of the retro computing hobby spectrum, there is emulation and this is where I recommend everyone start.
You can emulate the Amiga with UAE and every Commodore ipad computer with vice otherwise known as a versatile Commodore emulator.
Of course, we should all know about DOSBox. For the Atari ST, consider Hattari.
There are emulators available today for every one of these retro systems.
These emulators will not give you the feel of sliding a 5.25 inch floppy disk into its drive and clicking the lever down to lock it into place.
And certainly we'll be lacking the aesthetic of some of these machines but I personally find emulators are a great tool to have.
Even if you plan on owning the original hardware at some point.
One of the most popular methods of emulation these days is with a Raspberry Pi.
I have seen people go to the point where they've removed the failed damage components from inside the case of a vintage computer and replace it with a Raspberry Pi.
Now some would argue that emulation is not the same thing as using the real hardware but sometimes this is the most economically viable route to take.
Especially if you want the aesthetic of the vintage hardware with the reliability of modern hardware.
If you listen to my previous podcast here at Hacker Public Radio, you might remember one of my podcasts was about bare metal Commodore 64 emulation on a Raspberry Pi.
Which some could argue delivers as good an experience as the real thing.
Now at this point of the podcast, I'm going to share with you my top three favorite retro computers in my collection.
Number one is my Amiga 2000.
I have found that when it comes to Amigas, the 2000s tend to be undervalued, overlooked and have a lot of potential.
After replacing the leaky battery on mine, I added a kickstart switcher that lets me choose from three main Amiga kickstart chips at boot.
That's version 1.3, version 2.04 and 3.1.
I've added a great Valley products Scuzzy Hard Drive controller that also contains RAM expansion up to the maximum of 8 Mbps and added an 8 Gb Scuzzy Hard Drive, which is the biggest hard drive that this system can address.
I added the Amiga 2088 Bridgeboard Card and a 5 ¼ inch PC floppy drive.
So my Amiga 2000 is also a genuine 888 based PC.
I added a GoTec drive in the extra drive bay and used a 10804S monitor for my display.
I have a PS2 adopter so I can use my Logitech track ball with my Amiga.
I have the A10 speakers which are Commodore branded speakers that were typical computer speakers from the early 90s,
as well as an external Amiga floppy disk drive and the Iomega zip drive, which I can also use on my Mac Plus.
The zip drive was how I originally transferred files and disk images between my Amiga and PC, since the UAE emulator included support to read these as Amiga hard disks.
She's a noisy beast when I start her up. Here, let me give you a sound bite of my Amiga starting up.
I can load up a USB stack with Amiga games and play games for days.
My second favorite system is my Commodore 128.
I've upgraded it to use Jiffy Doss and use it with the MIUI C as well as the 1571 floppy drive.
This is connected to a 10804 display so I can use both 40 and 80 column modes.
I once made a parallel port cable so I could connect the 1571 disk drive to an old PC running star commander that let me read and write Commodore disks on the disk drive.
Though these days, the MIUI C makes that unnecessary.
I can load up an SD card with Commodore 64 games and play games for days.
Unlike my Amiga 2000, the Commodore 128 is dead silent when I turn it on, save for the floppy drive access when booting into CPM.
Here is a sound bite of my Commodore 128 starting up and booting into CPM.
This is my Amiga 2000.
This is my Amiga 2000.
This is my Amiga 2000.
Finally, my third favorite system is my Mac Plus.
I cracked the case open when I first got it to upgrade the memory from one megabyte to
four megabytes. Since I had the zip drive currently connected to my Amiga, it still boots
from system floppy disks. Sadly, this computer doesn't get nearly the attention my Amiga
gets and that's a shame because the minimalist aesthetic really appeals to me. Like my
Commodore 128, the Mac Plus is dead silent when running, safe for the disk drive access
on boot time. Here's a sound clip of my Mac Plus booting up.
And the Mac Plus does boot up considerably faster than either my Amiga or my Commodore 128.
So credit to Apple for that.
Now we've come to the point in this episode where I need to admit I have a bit of a problem
with these old computers. This isn't just a podcast for you, it's also therapy for me.
I need to learn to let stuff go. Some other computers I've accumulated over the years include
a Toshiba T5100 that is currently in parts on my workbench in need of repair, which is
otherwise a great Classics 386 system. I have a Commodore 16 and a box which is fully
functional, which I bought because after owning a VIC-20 as a kid, this was supposed to
be my next computer before Commodore canceled it and dropped the prices of Commodore 64s.
And it was fun for me to see what it was like. I still have my original Amiga 500 as well
as the second one I got for cheap at a flea market and the A520 hard drive memory expansion
unit with power supply. And of course the memory expansions that go inside of the Amiga's
as well. I also have a second non working Commodore 128 for parts, a non working Commodore 64
for parts, and a non working VIC-20 for parts. I have the MPS 801, 802, 803 printers, though
all I really need is my MPS 1250. I probably don't even really need that. I have two or
three data sets and I'm not entirely sure how many 1541 disk drives I own, but I even
have one that coordinates with my VIC-20. And of course I bought a C64 mini when they
went on sale. So yes, after many, many years of collecting and rescuing old computers,
it's probably time for me to start calling my collection. Now as is customary with the
Paul Quirk show, let's end it with another piece by Fredric Chopin. This is Waltz and
B minor, opera 69, 2, written around 1829 and published after Chopin's death. Apparently
Chopin had asked that many of his unpublished works, including this one, were to be burnt
after he passed away. Fortunately for us, this did not happen as we get to enjoy this brilliant
music today.
Well, that's just about it for this episode of the Paul Quirk show. How about you, good
listener? Are you interested in retro computing? Maybe you have an old computer of your own
that you'd like to talk about. Please be a friend and record a podcast about it. I'd
love to hear all about it. Well, thank you for listening to the Paul Quirk show here
on Hacker Public Radio today. As always, I encourage you to drive safe and have fun.
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