Update metadata and transcripts through end of July 2026

Refreshed episodes/hosts/comments/series from hpr.sql, and added
official HPR transcripts for the 180 episodes aired since the last
sync (hpr4516-hpr4695).

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+Episode: 4537
+Title: “Elsbeth in IT: Since ’97” (Part 1)
+Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr4537/hpr4537.mp3
+Transcribed: 2026-07-31 16:13:27 (official HPR transcript)
+
+---
+
+This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 4537, for 2025-12-23
+Today's show is entitled, "“Elsbeth in IT: Since ’97” (Part 1)"
+The host is Elsbeth and the duration is 00:43:07
+The flag is Explicit, and the license is CC-BY-SA
+The summary is "Elsbeth talks to Lee about what it has been like since approx 1997 working in different parts of IT."
+Hi, I'm Lee, I'm joined today with Elzbeth and we're going to talk a bit about her experiences in the IT field and some of the larger issues around that subject
+So let's start here. What first drew you into the IT field back in the early 2000s and what did the industry look like for women at that time?
+My first computer that I have was shared with my ex husband who had decided that that was something that he wanted to get into. He wanted to learn how to fix and repair computers
+Which at that point in time you didn't have to have a degree just had to have some experience and practice and usually in a plus certification
+That could get your foot in the door somewhere like geek squat or best buyer somewhere to help 10 people's computers
+Or even work independently
+As he started pittling around with computers and what not that was my introduction to
+The idea that maybe I could do that because I would help him learn how to do what he was doing and I would
+I would build along with him and tear apart and you know what not
+It was kind of like being the only female in a D&D group
+Right, where it was really cool that you wanted to be a part of it, but you know, no, you're a place
+I wouldn't say that he necessarily had that mentality but over time as we both were learning to
+Build our own computers and repair other people's computers and learning a little bit about software and just communications and whatnot
+It became more and more apparent that
+While it was nice to have a female that could talk the talk
+When it got to the point of where I could walk the walk and maybe just a little better than some of the guys
+That's when it became kind of a shut down thing all you if it's really isn't
+This isn't your niche, you should be looking for something more, you know, something different to do
+And it didn't come all at once, it wasn't like a
+I'd probably say between like 90s
+95, 96 to probably about
+2005 and I'm going further than that first marriage because that's where I got introduced to this
+But when I moved on and I was in another relationship with somebody who was also in the software side of IT
+That mentality was still there of
+It's nice, it's cute that you know the girl can do something but leave it to the voice
+Right, so we working with other people at that point
+It was all independent in 2000 I started working as tech support
+It a call center so basically people would call that was 2000 was when everybody wanted to have their own ISP for their business
+So that it would draw people to their business
+Every store would have a dial up ISP that people could get for free and they could get on to the internet and explore this new world
+And it was, it was a new experience
+And it was like being able to be in that and it was I only worked there for six months
+Because there was a lot of sexism in that industry
+And like there was her sexual harassment and other things that were going on that was just not addressed whatsoever
+You know inappropriate comments made by co-workers
+And people trying to like inner office affairs and other people trying to push affairs and whatnot
+It was kind of like females entering the military a few years before account about five or ten years before
+Men could not handle women being in the industry that they wanted to dominate
+And I know that that's not a popular thing to hear but that's what was going on
+Guys trying to in the call center that we're doing tech support way way more poorly than you were as a female
+Would sexually harass you to get you to quit so that they could get the promotion within the corporation
+And I was actually the first one in our little my ex husband and his little core group of friends to actually get a job in IT at all
+And I mean core group there were other people that we knew that worked in different aspects of IT
+But I didn't realize it back then, but I realized now that my getting that job actually was an ego blow
+Right to and it was kind of the final nail in the coffin of my marriage at that time because
+My working in that industry and my doing well even though I was being sexually harassed and bullied in the workplace
+By both co-workers and managers of the opposite sex
+That was a confidence boost because I was like oh I can do this
+Yeah, and maybe I did get bullied out of that position, but I never fully got out of IT
+Until about
+Two two years ago
+Okay, so actually over the years and that span that whole period
+What kind of roles did you hold so throughout your IT career and how did your responsibilities above over those years
+Well after that particular position until I went into QA in a call center
+Every single other position or any sort of work that I did in IT was under the table
+And part of startup companies where I would do quality assurance work through
+Basically, I worked for a startup company that someone started and had hired and gave my ex-husband
+Ownership shares of the company because of the amount of work that he did that so it isn't actually charged for
+This was the OSecond husband. Yes, yes, I will not name names. I'm not doing that
+But it was great. I loved I learned how to do QA with minimal guidance
+At the time I think he was trying to show me that I could actually do something in the IT industry
+The problem was during the time that I worked for him to the point in time that I wasn't working for him anymore
+It became
+The so many people had gotten into IT and so many people were getting degrees in IT that it became
+Standard to request that you had at least a bachelor's degree in computer science
+To get any role that I had already been doing without any education
+How was it being self-taught and how are you treated being someone who was self-taught
+Might be like running your career versus someone who'd gone through the degree route
+Well, the degree route pot people a standardized version just like most education systems
+Teach a standardized way to do things
+And because this was IT software developers would create the next big software program or methodology that would
+Be the industry standard of quality assurance
+Sigma six is what's that and that started in the manufacturing industry
+And I have actually done the Sigma six training I worked as a quality assurance analyst or assistant
+Associate analyst in a call-centered environment for a company that had I love this company
+I think they're really really good
+I think as all companies do they make some poor choices and they have to deal with the consequences of them
+And I unfortunately because I was contract and was an on full-time permanent not I was working full-time
+But I was still contracting and I lost my contract because of a an error in a different department
+It's put that way that affected the entire company
+But they had a great education suite for their employees
+And when you had time off the clock
+Or not off the clock but on the clock, but if you had time you could use your lunch break or something to do some studies
+And I went through the entire Sigma six training through them
+The only thing I didn't do was didn't get certified because that costs a crap ton of money
+Here's the thing though
+Sigma six is a great quality assurance training for the manufacturing industry
+And software that deals with manufacturing that would be great too
+But when you're talking about software development and QA and testing and sources and whatnot, there are other options
+That I think are just as valuable to be self taught in that
+You have to have an element of logic, you have to have an element of tracking your data
+There are aspects to that but to be able to get in the quality assurance software industry now
+You have to have a degree and you have to have Sigma six training
+Okay, so actually back then, would you say my colleagues had an advantage even if they were self taught and didn't have a degree?
+Absolutely
+I want to keep this a moderate rating for this podcast, but I cannot emphasize enough
+But a self taught man could walk in with a resume and what they had experienced
+And I could have even better qualifications and that man would still get the job
+Okay, so whether moments when you thought that what you contributed to the companies you were at or the situations you were kind of overlooked or minimized at all
+Just like every other industry including let's go back to aid a love life
+Who gets credited for creating the first computer?
+Wasn't it Charles Babbage?
+Except for it was aid a love life
+Yeah, right did she mail that this is now Mike or so that night she might be invented programming techniques
+Where is Babbage was putting the gaze together?
+Except for he gets all the credit for it
+Right in the geek community, especially within the female geek community
+I mean, it's known it's it's put out there, but common knowledge is going to I would almost but if I looked it up on chat GPT right now
+Before hers, it would be mentioned, but his name would come up before hers
+Right, right, yeah, goes what good is it light of coax unless you can write a program for it?
+Exactly. Yeah, my experiences in IT in role plane and anything that was traditionally a male dominated role or
+We're not have been taken and put under somebody else's name. I have no way to prove that I have done what I've done in the IT industry
+Because it's all been under a man's name
+Like I told you that I did 15 years in QA and start up software development company
+Yeah, I did all the QA. My name is
+No where they are other than a minor portion of ownership shares to a company where that software is not even used anymore
+Yeah, actually I'm just thinking and I've got a little smile on my face, but I'm just thinking about those buttons that we worked on for the website for this podcast
+And the graphical design for it and
+What you did was instrumental, but then I kind of versioned it with CSS or whatever
+And you weren't too happy with my version of it and so I ended up
+No, I liked your version of it, but it was directly, they say imitation is of the most sincerest form of flattery
+As an artist and as a writer in this case, it was a
+Direct inspiration of what I created, but it wasn't what I created. Yeah, yeah, if that makes sense
+And I'm not mad about it. It looks great
+The point I was coming to is if you look at the githy repository, it's got my name when it doesn't have your name at all
+The original thing, so it's almost like history repeating itself
+You've done the thing that actually was quite the thing is, I don't necessarily need credit for it
+But I believe that I should be able to work in an industry that I can prove myself that if you just let me do my job
+Yeah, you know
+And I think maybe my feelings on that are a little heightened because of my neurodivergence
+Because I'm currently sitting in a position where I can't work in that industry and receive a salary that will help support me
+And there's a lot of consequences to that, like I can't get in health insurance, I can't get
+I can't even work in a job where I'm not physically in pain because I don't qualify
+Yeah, I remember when I back in the 90s I worked fairly well known software company
+I mean they've changed their name, but then now more well known
+Most of the managers were actually female
+There was a pretty much a 50-50 mix of men and women working in
+I mean more of the programming side of things were maybe favourite being male
+But more engagement side of things favourite being female in the mid 90s
+Okay
+Do you think that and this was in the UK basis in the international company
+Do you acknowledge is there a difference in this in the culture of the things between the different countries?
+Well, there's a distinction there that you are probably missing
+They worked as managers
+Were they actually software developers?
+Were they actually QA or were they just the people that were the person that could be bullied
+Into getting somebody else to do something that they wanted them to do
+I think they were managing the projects and the part of their role might have been software development as well
+Some of the software as you'd hands on software developers were female
+I'm asking this because it's a communications thing
+So let's say one of these project managers really wanted to be in the IT industry
+They had the IT knowledge
+But they couldn't get on as a developer
+Right
+But they would get hired on as a project manager because the project manager is the person
+The person that is the the glue between the stakeholders and what they want financially
+But they also want put into the system
+And the developers who are like, dude, I'm trying to make what you're telling me you want
+But this isn't going to work
+The project manager is that communications connoisseur
+Who will let the stakeholders know that the developers are doing the best that they can do
+And the expectations that they have, however they need a deadline extension
+So that they can complete the extra items that you have asked them to put into something they've already developed
+And then they have to go back to the developers and be like, the stakeholders want you to, you know, this is a communications thing
+It's about somebody who can manage their emotions and not lose their ever living minds
+When two distinctly different personalities are disagreeing on how something should be done
+The developers look at the world a certain way and the stakeholders look at things a certain way
+I'm getting there with this because the stakeholders are mostly men
+And the developers are mostly men
+If there was a male project manager and any one of those individuals had a bad day or was in their ego
+That could cause some serious conflict and it could cause days if not weeks of delay and development
+Okay, I've probably there right there repeated one
+So what other stereotypes about women in tech that you encounter most often
+And how did they sharpen daily work life
+stereotypes
+In no way could I be more intelligent or more capable than any other man
+Like it didn't matter if I did something that was just innovative
+That innovation would either be stolen and credited to somebody else that was a male
+Or it would be like there's no way you got that from somebody else
+What they would you know what forum you know or what you know where did you get that information from that had to have been some guy
+It couldn't possibly have been I observed the situation analyzed it
+And realized that if we looked at it from a different perspective and tweaked
+This by the certain way to make it look a different way it could be more cohesive that way
+And any more productive
+I think that the other stereotype is and this is something that's
+I don't think it's talked about enough is that technology isn't just for the coder
+The developers can make amazing things happen
+But if they don't make it visually
+Accessible
+And pleasing to the user who is not a developer
+Their code isn't worth anything but to themselves
+I've heard it actually said more than once recently that the term user is a bit of a
+And if he term and this is something I've thought about
+Because you have you have drug users and certainly in my past I've been called a service use a bit of use
+Like to health services
+Or autism services I've been called a service use and there's always seems to be there's a power imbalance between the user who's forced the use the system
+And the developer of the creator who creates the system
+Can you think of a better way of framing that that is not just changing terminology but is actually
+Generally re-empowering the people who are actually the part of the software being there in the first place
+I love the term end user
+Because it's the person beyond the developer and the stakeholders that are creating something
+So the person is actually going to use it's the end of the line that's the last person that's going to use the software
+Or the system or whatever
+User isn't a negative term if it's used with the correct definition
+You know it's not a user somebody who abuses
+The system it's not you know that's not what the term user means
+User means the person is interacting
+You know if I have a radio a physical radio like we had back in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s
+If I had that radio I am the user that turns the knob on that turns the music but then I also tune it
+That's not a negative connotation and that's exactly what I mean when you're talking about user in software in hardware
+So on and so forth
+So I like the term end user because that's the last person in the development process
+It's going to use this and that could be multiple people
+And the reason I like that is that end user isn't the exact same
+It's going to be whoever actually is using the product at any given time
+So part of and just to go on to my some of my interests a little bit in this a little bit more
+This is perhaps why like things like Linux systems where you're not just assumed to be a user in quotes
+You have an equal part and maybe it's because I'm in a privileged position because I understand
+I have the ability to actually
+Technically tune reengineer even what's in front of me
+I'm not just rely and in fact if I'm in it if I'm presented with something where I have no opportunity to customize and reengineer it
+I feel like I'm disempowered
+I mean is that how you see things or do you think there is a place for just software to be a black box that you just does what it's supposed to
+And there's and it doesn't have this openness that you can actually reach open the box reach inside and tinker around with it
+I'm trying to formulate a response here because I never considered
+Software being static if you will
+Like once it's done it's done
+Because I don't think that that's how software is
+Software is a continual work and progress
+So it's hard work for that matter. I mean look how fast new the new latest greatest thing comes in
+It seems of it seems a bit paradoxical
+Doesn't it that you'd think a proper specific problem could be just solved once and for all solved
+And yet we in the world where the problem has to be resolved over and over again by countless
+Well, if you were solving for just one user
+Then there is an end
+There is an end
+Software
+Incorporates like the accessibility to multiple users multiple individuals who are different ways of thinking ways of learning ways of putting things into practice
+So software is an ultimately is an ever changing ever developing thing
+At some point in time
+It may become antiquated and there's a new development and a new piece of software works better
+So in that sense then yes, but then it just doesn't get used
+Do you think actually software would be better or would have been better or has become better because there are more
+There's more input from that there's to have more gender equality in software production
+Actually improves the software in numerous ways
+I think that while a younger generation than me of females have and other
+Diversity's have gone into education that has taught them
+In a sense that gets them into a degree that would allow them to be hired by these
+You know companies as a whole because right now self-taught people are not being hired
+Unless they have a resume that is consistent and when you are a female who has chosen to prioritize raising your kids
+And yet still has worked under the table as QA you don't get that
+So these younger women that have come up they have become more vocal about the inequalities
+And yet until there is a change how corporate politics are done
+That doesn't make it easy to cover up the inequalities
+And until we have made more progress in that regard
+It will not be fully equal between men and women in the industry
+I guess what I'm trying to say is there isn't equality in the industry now
+Even though we've come a long way
+Okay, so to talk with you, you mentioned there other types of diversity
+So for example, how did you balance your neurodivergence with the expectations in the culture of the early 2000s?
+I didn't know I was neurodivergent until 2000s
+18 or 19
+So I think that's a valid question to ask though because I would not when I was working in the call center that I mentioned earlier on
+Doing tech support
+There were
+Triggering to me in that environment
+But I think the work from home for call centers things that started in COVID was the best possible thing ever
+Because I think that people that work in call centers should be able to be at home
+Well, I know that comes with a bunch of other aspects of what if they're not doing their drag ride
+There's some issues there that I can expand upon
+But I will say that because of the neurodivergence aspect, there are aspects that people that are neurodivergent that could profit from working from home
+And that was not something that was even on my radar
+Even when my second husband was regularly doing software development jobs from home
+It would have never been on my radar that I could have worked from home
+With what I had learned and whatnot
+And I think a lot of that comes from the aspect of I didn't have the degree
+So I kind of let that be the hang up
+But the elements that working from home would have allowed me to prosper in the industry
+Would have been I could have kept the lights at the level that were comfortable to me
+I could have got a blue screen in front of my monitor and what not to be able to be more productive
+And not have my eyes weary from staring at a screen all the time
+I could stem without causing other people to make comments about my stemming
+There's a lot of aspects that
+Not knowing I was neurodivergent if I'd had known that maybe I could have been more successful
+Because I would have already been able to know how to communicate my different abilities in the way I think and process
+And how that manifests where I could have maybe self-advocated that I could prove better
+That I was able to do these things
+Whether it be QA or even building computers or without having the pressure of being forced to mask in a corporate environment
+So if I wanted to work at Best Buy I would have had to be able to work on a computer in an open space where people
+Customers could see me working on the computers and I would have felt like I had to
+When I'm working on a computer, I'm talking to myself, I'm doing this that and the other
+I'm not trying to perform like a corporate stage
+That's not how I best build a computer or work with the software or test software
+The industry as I started working in building computers and repairing them
+My neurodivergence would not have allowed me to be successful in that industry as far as in a store
+And that's maybe why it never happened
+Yeah
+All right, let's move on a little bit
+What was the main thing that pushed you to leave the IT space
+I couldn't get a QA position
+I had been working for 15 years
+Yes, I know 15 years is a long time, but it was a startup company
+Back company was in the process of restructuring as another company
+And I had been doing the software testing and quality assurance
+Kind of being kind of go between
+I would not label myself as project
+Being a position that I performed some project manager role
+It's actually just taking a step back
+So you were working an IT as you described your working for an internet service provider
+And
+No
+Blue, was it blue space
+Who's like.com?
+I worked for a call center that did the tech support for BlueLight.com
+I think I can say that now because that's long been sent shut down
+Yeah, yeah
+Like that was back in 2000
+Dial up ISPs aren't a thing anymore
+Yeah, I mean, I think the telecom providers like would set up as ISPs
+But then even you had like supermarkets itself as an ISP
+And that's like that
+Yeah, that's what I'm saying
+Everybody in their dog wanted their own dialogue to get some advertising for their own business
+And you also mentioned it's trying to piece these bits to give you also mentioned your building computers
+So what context was that?
+I mean what who were your customers
+At friends
+Right people you knew
+Friends and friends of friends
+It was all mostly under my first husbands
+You know, he would build I would build you know
+Yeah, so it's like almost like a micro business
+Yeah, I was a mom though
+Like I was a young mom, you know, I could do all that stuff
+And I could do it as a young mom, but I you know
+And I'm very I'm very genuine when I say that
+I am not bashing him for taking credit for it at this point in time that's so long passed
+But I probably did just as much computer builds as he did
+For stuff that he had done for other people
+It does kind of fall under the I didn't get credit for it aspect of it
+But that was the way the industry was at the time
+Then you ended up transitioning to you mentioned so tech support was this like first line support or second line support
+Or the or you mentioned QA was like like QA within a tech support role
+Well the next
+role that I had after doing that because I was a stay at home mom and just building computers and studying for my A plus and all that
+Was as the tech support for blue light calm
+Right that was through a call center
+It wasn't directly paid through blue light just clarifying there
+So that course into that course into the due when you with calls to do then progress
+Did you the escalate calls to another department after handling the call or you had to be like hands on of
+Self in the problem self in the technical problems as as they kind as with any call center even today
+They want the first line of
+You know the first person that takes the call to solve the issue. Yeah, that is the goal
+You have to have people that are very very empathetic
+And yet able to set very very firm boundaries that you can help take care of their issue
+And make them feel confident
+You're always going to get somebody that wants to speak to a supervisor or the manager or whatever
+My job was to
+Help the customer feel confident enough that they didn't need to be escalated to a supervisor
+So were you overseeing yeah, so were you overseeing other
+Cool handlers or you were handing the calls yourself
+Well, when I was speaking earlier about the whole
+Sexual harassment in the workplace
+Yeah, I never got to that point because I was good. I should have been promoted
+But I wasn't because there were other people that were trying to
+I was being sexually harassed by different individuals
+To make me feel like they were trying to make me seem crazy and erratic in the worst place
+So I wouldn't get promoted
+Because I was reporting these issues to HR
+Okay
+Once you get HR involved back then it was a mess
+So I never was able to be promoted because of that
+Okay, so what your job was to take a call
+And tell the customer what they needed to do to solve their specific problem
+Okay, so wouldn't
+Okay, so an example would be
+Best murderals and says
+Something's wrong with my cup holder and he helped me fix it
+And yes, I know this is a big you know old school geek joke
+But it happened
+I'm not kidding
+And I have to explain to that individual that that was not in fact a cup holder
+But if they pulled their cup out of it
+And it was still not sliding in and out
+Then they would need to take it to get their computer repaired
+That was not an issue with the ISP
+That wasn't an issue
+They needed to actually use that
+But the disk in to dial up to the ISP
+Yeah, so it's like it was a bit difficult
+Because you're not just hand holding people through you dialing up on the modem
+You're like basically providing the complete sweet of support
+The people need to use the computer in the first place
+Because that people just don't distinguish between that
+And the technicalities of putting it in the password and a phone number
+So you love a particular show
+And we watched it together when I was there
+And he says, well did you turn it off and turn it back on again?
+Yes, Roy says that
+That
+That was probably the phrase I used the most
+During that job
+Because you're dealing with a time period when the average individual
+If they had enough money to have a computer
+And have a phone line could get on to the internet
+If they knew how to do it
+You know how to use the equipment
+And my job mostly was teaching people how to use the computer
+So when I was talking about escalating
+I wasn't necessarily mean reporting to your manager
+About a complaint, I just mean that they were...
+Oh, you mean escalating in the call
+Yeah, they might have actually been a genuine problem
+I mean I noticed unlikely
+I actually have been a genuine problem that wasn't just the customer
+Not knowing how to do things
+But then might actually be a problem with the ISP
+I was hoping
+Probably clarify you that my job was also to make the customer
+Not realize there was a problem
+Right, okay
+So let's say the ISP was having a glitch and just was not working
+It was my job
+In three minutes or less by the way
+To convince the customer that it was their computers problem
+Right, okay
+That is what we instructed to do
+You're temporarily out of RAM
+It's not that we're having a power case that you're temporarily out of RAM
+You just have to wait till the RAM subsides a little bit
+And then you'll be after dialing
+Yeah
+Yeah, that was a fun time
+Trying to convince people that
+I, that's exactly it was a big issue for me
+So I would just basically explain to the customer that
+They needed to turn their computer off
+And let it set for ten minutes and then come back and try
+I would say something like that, you know
+In ten minutes somebody's going to scroll and do something else
+Look it back to it when they get it back to it
+And hopefully by then the ISP was back up and they could use it
+Yeah, realistically if you have somebody
+They'll offer a period of time to do something else away from the computer
+They're going to get just at that point in time
+They're going to get distracted enough
+That the computer can wait
+But that was also a time period when
+We didn't have a computer being held in our hands
+Yeah
+Yeah, so you'd been doing that textbook role
+That wasn't necessarily QA
+So how did that evolve into doing quality assurance?
+Well that was a job that I got out of necessity
+The call center job was a job I got out of necessity
+But trying to be in the IT industry to some degree
+My time period of that call center came to an end
+Because I literally could not, I want I could not get to work
+Because I did not have a vehicle
+Two I was also like mentally dealing with the other issues
+That I had spoken about before when I misunderstood your comment about escalation
+And at that point in time all of that came to a head
+And I suddenly found myself in the middle of a separation and divorce
+I needed to get a job that I could actually get to
+And because I didn't have a car because of the separation
+I had to choose to do something else for work
+Yeah, I had it QA come about
+QA came about when my second husband who
+He was a suffered developer when I met him
+And had been for quite some time
+He was asked by you know I'm trying to remember how he and the creator of the company
+Interacted somehow or another he got connected with this gentleman
+That had an idea for software but was not a developer himself
+And it was for something all I'm going to say is it was for something in the health care wellness bubble
+And he started decoding that software for him
+And over time they needed somebody my ex husband needed somebody to test the software for him
+But they didn't have the funds to pay somebody that had a degree
+Or had more experience so he asked me to look at it
+And he had been asking me to look at it and trying things out
+And eventually he realized I'm pretty good at this because I have
+An act of seeing things from different angles and trying things different ways
+And he ultimately wound up having me do the QA portion
+He would send a bill for his software development stuff
+But then there would be a QA invoice as well
+And that was just the work I did
+It was never officially under my name
+And that's how I got into QA
+I taught myself how to effectively
+Look at every aspect of the software from both a usability and a practicality standpoint
+And do test studies and keep data records and whatnot
+Okay
+We'll continue with this chat in the future episode
+Thanks for listening
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