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Episode: 383
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Title: HPR0383: TOR Interview
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Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0383/hpr0383.mp3
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Transcribed: 2025-10-07 19:31:02
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---
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!
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This is Krasu, I'm at the after-after party at Southeast Linsfest, and I'm talking to
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Wendy from the Onion Router.
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What is the Onion Router?
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Well, the tour project is an instance of onion routing anonymizing software that sends
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traffic through a series of hops on its way to its destination, so that ISPs along the
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way, the destination site, can't figure out who you are and what you're browsing at the
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same time.
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Nice.
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So, I guess the immediate appeal to that is fairly obvious.
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Who uses it?
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I mean, is it just because your paranoid or, I mean, is there...
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Well, it's anyone who wants to avoid traffic analysis of their activity, and that
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ranges from people who are looking for competitive intelligence about a business sector and don't
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want their competitors to know that they are doing deep investigations of what's posted
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on a public website to victims of domestic violence who are trying to use the web without
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attracting attention from their attackers to people in government, so the tour was initially
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funded by naval research, and government doesn't want people knowing what it's investigating,
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even among public documents either.
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And so, at a whole range of uses, among the uses that we're seeing lately, an increasing
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number of people using it to circumvent national level censorship, filtering the great
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firewall of China, because traffic through the tour network is encrypted and only comes
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out at the other end from a different country often than where it started.
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You won't trigger a key word or a destination based filtering rules, and so a user in China
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trying to learn more about the events of Tiananmen Square might be able to get to sites through
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a tour that were blocked through an unfiltered connection, or heart rate filtered connection.
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So I'm gathering what happens that I'm at home, I fire up tour, I go out onto the
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interweb, and my signal instead of going to Google.com goes to someone else's server or something,
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and then it goes to Google or what, I mean how does it work and who's servers on my bouncing
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off of?
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Well, the servers in the tour network are run by volunteers, so each node and its volunteer
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are operated, and we call it onion routing because at the source the packets are wrapped
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in a few layers of encryption, and the tour design uses a three-hop route, so you find
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an entry node, it unwraps one layer of encryption which tells it the destination for the next
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talk, and that middle node then doesn't know the source or the destination only that it's
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got a somewhat encrypted packet that it needs to, a fully encrypted packet that it needs
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to fully, that it needs to pass on to an exit node, the exit node unwraps, sees the destination
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but not who's sent it into the network, and sends it off to Google or the site you were
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trying to reach, and then it takes the same path in reverse on the way back, and how is
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this path determined, like I mean if I go to Google, am I always sent the same way to
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it, or is it just like whatever's available, or?
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I should know here that I'm not one of the technical architects, so I have no idea what I'm
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asking anyway, but the design, it's all fully open-source and open spec specified on the
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site, so I believe that the routes are determined and left for a period of a few minutes, and then
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get cycles switched on, but if I'm wrong, everyone can go to the torproject.org website and read
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the correct address, the description instead.
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Okay, well here's the question that you probably do know that, and I think you already answered
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it, but it might be a dumb question.
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So if I'm at a conference, like Southeast Literacy Festival, I decide I want to check my
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email, and normally I would tunnel, you know, I'd make an SSH tunnel and just fire up a
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web session through there and do all my browsing through there, so if I had torr, could
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I start that up and that would encrypt from end to end the same way, or is it different?
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Well, in the similar way to your SSH tunnel, so like your SSH tunnel, tor can't encrypt the
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connection between an exit and a website or other service that doesn't offer encrypted
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connection, but you put the tor client onto your machine and then your traffic is encrypted
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from there until the point that exits the tor network.
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Okay.
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So if you were concerned, somebody at one of these conferences was sniffing your connection,
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trying to see what you were doing, routing the connection through torr would stop that.
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Okay, so just, I guess just briefly like a brief explanation, so if I want to go home now,
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because I've learned about Torr, I want to sit down from my computer and get it and start using it on a
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Linux box, how do I set that up?
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Well, depending on what distribution you use, go to torproject.org and you can get source code,
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tarballs, or packages that are made up for many distributions and install those from
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whatever package manager you use.
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If you were using a Windows or Macintosh system, there are even bundles that you could download for
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Windows, you could download the Torr browser bundle and put it onto a USB stick to take with you.
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Right.
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If you went to an internet cafe and didn't want to use whatever was installed locally on their machine,
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you could launch this from USB key and you could set up like a proxy thing or something I
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seem to recall.
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I have to set that up on Firefox when I get it to recognize it or was enabled or something
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like that, does that sound familiar?
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So, if you are not using the bundle, which sets those things up for you, then you would have to
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tell Firefox directly, I'm not connecting directly to the internet instead I'm using an HTTP
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proxy and that HTTP proxy is sending the traffic to Torr, which behaves as a socks proxy.
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Okay.
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All right.
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And so, for us, your Polyfo will serve as that middle layer.
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Okay.
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So, what?
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I mean, if you can install the Torr button extension for Firefox, that's what I use.
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Which will do the toggle for you and also protect you against various nasty JavaScript and
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history sniffing attacks that could provide to correlate your browsing behavior between anonymous
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and non-anonymized states.
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So, I'm using Torr.
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I go to Google, it's all in German.
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Why is that?
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What does that mean?
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Well, it's because Google is using geolocation detection and it sees that your packets are exiting
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to the Google server from probably an exit node located in Germany.
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Right.
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And so, Google thinks it's being helpful by giving you Google.de instead.
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And you can know it's working.
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That's right.
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Even without going to the Torr check.
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Right.
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Well, website.
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Right.
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And so, there is a Torr check.
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There is that where it will say that you are not.
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You are.
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Or at least you are exiting from a known Torricks that node.
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Yeah.
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And we mentioned public lists of those Torricks that node.
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So, I mean, to set up, let's say that I had a spare, I guess, server or I guess a world-connected
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server.
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I mean, how could I set up, is it complex to be a tour node or is it kind of like just installing
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a server daemon or something and going for it?
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It is not complex, technically.
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It's the same package that would give you a Torr client.
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Change a few configuration options.
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Okay.
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Either in the text configuration file on the Linux machine or through the Vidalia GUI.
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And you can off to become a server.
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And you can set your exit policy.
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Okay.
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Which course you want to permit exit.
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Okay.
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And you're good.
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Or if you choose, you can be a middle node in the Torr network that just passes it.
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Just passes traffic.
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Yeah.
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In the middle of those connections.
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Right.
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So it doesn't get seen by the outside world as a source of traffic.
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Or you can off to be a bridge relay helping users from censored countries.
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Or to connect to the network.
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If they have difficulty reaching the publicly listed node.
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So I set up the Torr middle node at work without anyone knowing that I was doing it.
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Because I was in a test environment anyway.
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So I figured, why not?
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Are there any signs that there is a middle node on like one of my servers?
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Well, I'll assume that you had all the right authorization to do that.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And it was my server.
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Sure.
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And so you'll see increased traffic.
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Right.
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Yes.
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Which is true in front of the machine.
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Which is what I wanted.
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That's what I wanted to generate anyway.
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But that's it really.
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I mean, it's not like you might see increased CPU usage.
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I'm not aware of other things that you would see.
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Okay.
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And then you're helping to contribute to the network.
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Helping to make it run faster for everyone else who uses this.
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Yeah.
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Contributing to the anonymity shaft would make the anonymity stronger for everyone using the network.
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So I kind of forgot to ask you, what do you do for Torr?
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Who are you?
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Well, thanks for limiting.
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I am a member of the Board of Directors.
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Torr is a 501-C3 non-profit.
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So it's a core team of now like seven page employees working on the development of the code and the architecture of the network.
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And so as a non-profit, we have a board of directors working on the strategic goals of the organization and some fundraising.
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So if you like Torr and you're not able to run a server, encourage people to go to Torr project.org.
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And see if there's a donation they can make.
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You can do one of the code, money, time, any of the translations, any of those things that are helpful to the project.
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Yeah.
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One of the first time I heard about Torr was at an organization called Human Rights Watch, which sends out people to basically watch country governments see how they're treating humans.
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If they're human rights abuses, things like that.
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And they, in order, like you said, I think, you know, in order to be protected from people trying to figure out that they were in the country watching, you know, they had to use Torr.
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So I mean, it's project like that.
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I mean, it's not just a paranoid hacker in his mom's basement wanting to use Torr to be paranoid.
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It's like real people like meeting, you know, the, the, and the enmity that they deserve and that they, that they have a right to really.
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But that's right.
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And aid workers going into foreign companies or places with corrupt local administrators who wouldn't like, you know, or who would very much like to know.
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Right.
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Cause harm to somebody who was reporting on conditions there using Torr and other good security practices to disguise their location and hide their traffic.
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That is absolutely an important use.
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Yeah, really important.
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Yeah.
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I really, I admire all the work that you guys are doing at the onion router.
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And I thank you for your time and the energy.
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Thank you very much.
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Okay.
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Thank you for listening to Hack with Public Radio.
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HPR is sponsored by Carol.net.
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She'll head on over to CARO.NAC for all of her TV.
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Oh.
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Oh.
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