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Lee Hanken
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Episode: 1623
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Title: HPR1623: Tech and Coffee at OggCamp
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Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1623/hpr1623.mp3
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Transcribed: 2025-10-18 05:58:10
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---
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This episode of HPR is brought to you by AnanasThost.com.
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Get 15% discount on all shared hosting with the offer code HPR15.
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That's HPR15.
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Better web hosting that's honest and fair at AnanasThost.com.
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Hello, this is Benny for Hacker Public Radio.
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This is Hacker Public Radio episode 1623 on October 22nd of 2014.
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This is yet another episode of two interviews from Ocamp and this episode I interviewed
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two people from Tekken Coffee which is a Google plus hangout.
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Pretty much yeah.
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The first one is George Dasha who was a founder or co-founder of Tekken Coffee and the second
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one is Keith Miller who has his own company and works with cell phone networks in the UK
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and has some pretty much interesting things to say about cell phones and encryption, especially
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of non encrypted traffic controlled by Chinese firms.
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Well you decide yourself where you find this interesting enough.
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Well but first we'll listen to George Dasha what he has to say about Tekken Coffee and how
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it came about where you find it.
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Here we go.
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Welcome to Ocamp.
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Who are you?
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What are you doing here?
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My name is George Dasha, I'm from New York but live in Jacksonville, Florida.
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I flew all the way here to crew for one day at Ocamp but today I'm enjoying myself.
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So I'm actually just going around and hanging out with some friends and doing stuff.
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Alright and what are you doing in the US at home?
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I do.
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I do.
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I do support for a rather large bank.
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One of my other claims of fame is Philip was saying here a few seconds ago, walking
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by saying George is famous for Tekken Coffee which is a Google plus hangout that's been
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active almost continuously since November 2011.
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Alright and what's it about, what's already the discussions about, isn't it?
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Well it's about everything.
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There's been some articles about us that proclaim us as being the pretty much unofficial
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Google help desk.
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People will come in and ask questions and people will hop over and try to help them out.
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I started it as a Linux open source thing but now it's just kind of open to everyone.
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See how Mac, Windows, everybody comes in and we just all talk.
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It's general tech really.
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Alright, how big is it?
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We have almost 40,000 members in our community.
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Our hangout isn't public but there's links to get into it so people do find us and we'll
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come in and ask questions and such.
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Is it many Americans?
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Everyone for all over the world.
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We have a lot of Canadians, a lot of Americans, a whole lot of British.
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In fact some of them who have come to Tekken Coffee now come to Oddcamp because I come
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every year and we all just hang out together and so we call it like a mini Tekken Coffee
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thing so we just wear our t-shirts so you can see us all walking around.
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Alright so what's your reason to come to Oddcamp?
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Well actually believe it or not Peter Cannon of TDTRS, we used to chat together in the
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openzoosay.us forums and we had this report going where we'd probably just beat up each
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other, you know how he is.
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So basically I'd throw my American wit and Heathrow is, you know, London I'm going to
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kick your butt comedy into it and basically having befriended him over years, over time
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I've learned about Lennox Outlaws and then learned about this and then started coming
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over.
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Oh no, so are there any talks you want to see or it's just here for socializing?
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A little bit of both.
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I came here more or less to crew so usually when I crew and this year I'm only crewing
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one day but usually when I do crew the last two years I usually sometimes I get to see
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what I want but most of the time I don't.
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But the really interesting thing is when I come here and I'm actually inside of a lecture
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that I really didn't know if I wanted to listen to, I end up actually finding it very
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interesting.
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So it might not have been something I wanted to listen to but it's something I'd become
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interested in.
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So it's kind of cool, I've been forced to learn other things.
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All right, great, could you, for the end, could you tell people how, how did I find
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you or take a coffee if they want to?
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Actually they find, I think they find me not what they expect me to be.
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I don't know, I mean it's weird, they'll just talk to me and especially if I'm crew
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and somebody asks me directions and then I realize I don't have the accent for giving
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directions or helping people around but as a crew member, yeah it's a little bit different
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but it's an open source thing, we're all here to support open source, you know I'm here
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as just an open source person and not just an American, so great, thank you, it's a pleasure.
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All right, this was George Dusher, now we move on to another interview with Keith Milner
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which is a fairly technical interview about cell phone and phone networks, so to be honest
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I didn't get everything he was telling me but maybe you're more informed about this
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and you'll understand it.
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I found especially a second part very interesting where he talked about encryption and encrypted
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traffic as I said.
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All right, let's get going with the interview, that's Keith Milner for you, here we go.
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So this is Benny for HPR and I'm talking to Keith Milner, right, welcome to Arkham.
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So what brings you to Arkham?
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This is my third year at Arkham, came to the previous two in Liverpool and I got to know
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about Arkham through George Dusher who is part of a group on G plus called Tech and Coffee
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which is a kind of group of tech-minded people who hang out, do Google Hangouts and George
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has been a regular visitor to Arkham for various other places and he kind of shifted
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that I come along because he was actually coming along and I hadn't actually met him
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in person so I came along to the one in Liverpool back in 2012 and enjoyed it thoroughly
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so I've been coming since.
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Great, I interviewed him before about Tech and Coffee and he told me you're an interesting
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person so what makes you different from the normal Arkham crew?
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I'm not sure about it, to be honest I'm probably very similar to most of them, I've been
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a Linux user for a long time, I run my own company and I have done for a long time
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of working telecoms but I've always used open tools in my company rather than commercial
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software as a preference, I do use some commercial software, things like VMware and so on
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that all my desktop systems tend to be Linux-based when I'm using Linux tools and I quite often
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go and do consulting in large telecoms companies like cable and wireless, and Vodafone and BT
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and so on and I tend to promote the use of open tools systems they were ever possible
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as well but yeah I'm a geek, I'm a Geek like most other people here I think so.
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So that's interesting, you own your own company, what exactly do you do?
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I do telecommunications, as I mentioned I do work with telecoms companies but I'm telecommunicated
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with telecommunications engineer by background, so I'm networking, I do a lot of networking
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it's consulting basis really so I will go into companies and I work on networks, I work
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on the systems that run their networks and I work on the systems that glue their stuff
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together, so a lot of integration work which opensource is actually excellent for.
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So there might be, I've done some work for example on large network management systems
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like BT, large network of forecasting systems like BT and cable and wireless and people
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like that.
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And those are large, they're commercial systems but there's always a kind of, how do you
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actually get the information out of for example an inventory system or out of a network
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management system and into the long management system and there's a lot of integration work
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there and open source is perfect for that because it gives you the tools to actually
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do that integration very quickly and easily and cheaply.
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But that's kind of what I do, I do a lot of network and service design and integration
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stuff, mobile networks I'm doing a lot of mobile networks at the moment, mobile call
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network designs.
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All right, let's say for someone like me who doesn't know anything about telecommunications
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except I own a smartphone and text my girlfriend, so if I text my girlfriend for instance,
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or does this text message touch your system, your work what you do?
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Okay, this is something you can talk about for hours because it's actually quite complex
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but basically all the core network systems, if you imagine you've got a phone, that phone
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has to register with the network and it registers the network using because on the network
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it's called an HLR which is basically a database which has all the details of your SIM card
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on there and it's actually got encrypted keys on it as well.
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So when your phone tries to connect to the network, first thing it does is say I need
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to register, there's some hand-shaking goes on it works out which HLR which database
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you connect to and then there's a cryptographic key exchange with the details of your SIM,
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the cryptography keys of your SIM which have already been preloaded onto the HLR to actually
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verify that you are who you say you are and identify you as an account and also set up
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encrypted channel for the rest of the communications and then once you've done that there's the
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basically is an encrypted data channel which communicates your phone then uses to communicate
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with the core network databases and other services to allow you to do things like set up
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a call, send an SMS and so on and the SMS particularly there's a thing called SMSC which
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is basically a message store, it's almost like an email server but it's for SMSS and
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most of it runs on a as a signaling system, it's a network, telecommunications networks
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basically live and die on signaling systems because that's what basically struts allows
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each of the devices to communicate to each other how they what to do, you know, I want
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to make a telephone call, I want to send the SMS etc etc and the core signaling system
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used in telecommunications networks is called signaling system number seven, she's been
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around for years and but it's very very powerful and so a lot of work I do is on those
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sort of network signaling system networks which basically allow allow devices to actually
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tell each other I want to telephone call but yeah at least there's a lot more VoIP for
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example VoIP uses a signal system called SIP which people probably have heard of.
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We were talking about encryption, I studied math and in a theoretical course I learned
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that CSM is kind of broken though you can break the encryption with like six minutes of
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data, so I'm interested in what's what's done to solve this, is there a new technologist
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is solved?
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I think not at the moment there's various things I mean one of the problems is that there's
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a set of algorithms, it's all based because sims are basically smart cards and there's
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a set of standardized algorithms that you can use and the problem is that in the past
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a lot of people have basically used, it's a bit like when you're setting up a VPN you've
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got a choice of whether to use for example trickle des or SSJ1 or whatever and one you choose
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to kind of define how good your security is or the same sort of thing goes on with CSM
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you've got various algorithms that are available to you but people tend to go with the lowest
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condominator, so the problem is when people do that you end up with very easily cracked
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networks and that's one thing, then the second thing is that when you do use those more
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complex algorithms which give you better security people tend to again use the default key
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settings and so you end up with well there's one component of the encryption that everyone
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kind of already knows, the problem is that when you and I've just gone through this with
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a company that if you go through and say I want to define my sims to have a different
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standard key setting there's a thing called millenage which is the kind of algorithm they
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use which is more secure then that gives you much better security but generally speaking
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you go to the other switch manufacturers like likes of Ericsson and they go oh we don't
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support that at the standard will that all have to be a special and they can do it and
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it's basically changing through pew parameters but most of the kind of commercial switch vendors
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who make the call equipment are really not geared up to do that because it's sort of, you
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know, despite the fact that kits capable of doing it they require someone to go in and
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do some special work on it so they usually try and do it as an expensive, additional
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thing to them but that's a lot of the problem is because to be honest a lot of the people
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who, a lot of the companies that set up mobile networks don't really understand how it
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all works yeah and that's why the likes of me coming in the eyes I help them set it
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up but there is so much involved with GSM is probably the single most complex network
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infrastructure computing infrastructure in the world it's just so there's so much of
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it it's so complex in nature and so things like that get missed so but it is an issue but
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my I would actually say the bigger issue with mobile networks and a lot of people don't
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say how they work the bigger issue with mobile networks is data that the airside stuff is is
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one thing but once you've got the radio onto the actual fixed line part of it you know where
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they're you're transmitting between networks using fiber optic cables the the way that that
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mobile networks actually do things like roaming especially for data is through these networks
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called GRXs which are unencrypted in fact the companies that run those network actually sniff
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the data as a service for the operators and most of the GRXs in the world are run by Chinese
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companies so pretty much if you go road if you're roaming or if you're using a network like gift
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gaff or Tesco mobile or any of those other sort of services which right here are what they call
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national roaming agreement which is an MP&O where your where the main network is actually run
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by telephonic or or vote of someone and you're rebranding it you'll you'll be going via GRX and
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all that stuff for being unencrypted be routinely sniffed and stored available to almost certainly
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I like this officially but I'm almost certainly available to government for scrutiny and
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and also available to telecoms of that and the Chinese of Chinese companies that
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operates the service and none of it's encrypted unless unless you're actually running encrypted
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stuff you know from your handset through if you're using HTTPS obviously it is but anything which
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isn't it gets through to any sniffed and those guys basically the the they have this technological
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deep packing inspection and the DPI technology that's available you can go into those systems and
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after a very short period of collecting data you can go inside pick a telephone that you can
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say watch telephone numbers have been using this service pick a number and it will say watch
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email the dresses are associated with it what websites have they been looking at yeah all kind
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of stuff like that we're very very easy it's ridiculous amount of information so so encrypting
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up from the client data so you know things like HTTPS and SSL are actually going much more
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important in my view because if you want to retain your privacy it's anyway great great thank you
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it's interesting talking to you is there anything you'd like our listeners to know like where to
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find you and the internet where to find your company or anything yeah I use gplus more than anything
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else I do have twitter account which is at Keith Milner but best place to find me is to be
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honest is gplus and I'm at plus Keith Milner on gplus so you know very easy to find really
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great thank you talking to me cheers all right those were the two interviews from
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I'll camp this year with members of tech and coffee and I'll still get two sets of interviews
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coming up unlike I told you in the last episode I in total I've got four sets of injuries no three
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I'll kind of forgot about the tech and coffee ones and here we go the next set of interview will
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be with the organizers of a camp then and fab from Linux outlaws and mark from Ubuntu UK podcast
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and the last interview is one I took with coronominal with the crew from Linux voice magazine
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they talk pretty much about their magazine and how they crowdfunded the magazine everythings
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if you try to find me you'll find me as Navigium at micro.fractf.com that's new social
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if you look hard enough you'll also find me on gplus or twitter and I'm also on sdf as
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Benny at sdf the work that's also my email you could use if you like to give me feedback
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but the best way to give feedback is to record your own episodes anyway so do this go recording
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because we're alone at episodes at the moment thank you for listening and goodbye
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you've been listening to hecka public radio at hecka public radio dot org we are a community
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podcast network that releases shows every weekday Monday through Friday today show like all our
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then click on our contributing to find out how easy it really is hecka public radio was found
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at binwreff.com if you have comments on today's show please email the host directly leave a comment
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released under creative comments attribution share a light 3.0 license
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