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hpr_transcripts/hpr2459.txt
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Episode: 2459
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Title: HPR2459: free software's long tail
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Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr2459/hpr2459.mp3
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Transcribed: 2025-10-19 03:29:36
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---
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This is HBR episode 2459 titled Free Software Long Tale.
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It is hosted by first-time host Joey Hess and in about 7 minutes long, and Karina Cleenflag.
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The summary is, response to HBR 2443 colon, BD Menu, BD Menu Mortar.
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This episode of HBR is brought to you by AnanasThost.com.
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Get 15% discount on all shared hosting with the offer code HBR15.
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That's HBR15.
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Better web hosting that's honest and fair at AnanasThost.com.
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Hi, I'm Joey Hess and this is a response to HBR 2443 by Dave Morris, where he talks
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about BD Menu.
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I wrote BD Menu back in 1996 and then I think I re-wrote it in C in 1997 and I just was looking
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for a podcast just now and came across it on my feed and that was a nice surprise.
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Don't often hear from a lot of BD Menu users, but over the past couple of decades, every
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now and then somebody will say, hey, I use BD Menu and I'll be like, wow, I wrote that thing
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all that time ago, it was kind of my first C program and here's somebody all these years
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later still finding a use for it, isn't that great?
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It's kind of the long tail applied to free software.
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It seems to me to be one of the best benefits of free software that you can be, you know,
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in your own little world doing your thing and then it will touch somebody all these years
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later in some way and help them out.
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So I wanted to say thanks to the podcast and just rambled just for a minute or two about
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what it was like back then when I wrote it.
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I think I was using Linux of course back then in 1996 and I had a couple of wise dumb
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terminals that connected over a serial port and so I would, you know, run things on there
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just to have an extra screener too and I think I wrote PD Menu to have an easy way to
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let me and a few of my family members log into those wise terminals and not have to type
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a lot of stuff or the command line and just pick something off the menu which kind of might
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explain Dave was like, wow, there's some old programs on here, there's Pine and it has
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a telnet and finger and all these, you know, it has a use net reader just as in the sample
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menu is programs to run and it is kind of a snapshot of what I was using back then which
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I think is kind of neat.
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Of course I could update it to have something more modern but, you know, what's the point?
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This is an old piece of software and it's not trying to hide that but it's still a useful
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piece of software I guess.
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Let's say I should mention that I've still gotten patches for PD Menu and I haven't actually
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done any development myself on PD Menu for many years but every now and then somebody
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will send in a patch and I'll apply it if it looks decent and that's good.
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You know, it keeps it alive.
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Yeah, I haven't updated it since 2014 or whatever but if somebody sends in a patch I might
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just do that.
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You know, nowadays I don't write C code, at least not if I can avoid it.
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If I were going to actually work on something like PD Menu now I'd probably, well first
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I'd fix the atrocious config file format because it's like this weird, comable limited
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thing or colon-delimited or I forget what, but it's a mess.
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It's ugly.
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It was I think the first config file I probably wrote so I didn't know what I was doing and
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I'd probably rewrite it in Haskell and write it in like a tenth of the amount of code
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and make it much more sensible and bloody blob it.
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The fact of the matter is you don't go back and rewrite your old project from two decades
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ago just because you feel like it, it's more fun to work on something new so I probably
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never will and I'll probably will hopefully never look at some of that C code which I'm sure
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is pretty atrocious but apparently hasn't had any major security holes or anything.
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Oh, one other thing I wanted to mention is that PD Menu has kind of had an odd influence
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on the Debian project over the years.
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I was a Debian developer for many years and I uploaded PD Menu into Debian which probably
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helps people like Dave come across it because it's still part of the distribution and they
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can easily install it which I would, first of all, if you write software that's free
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software get it into the major distributions.
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They are the free software community's app stores as they were.
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They're the way that people will discover your software.
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If it's available in a distribution it's much easier to get it installed and you're
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just kind of leapfrogging up the adoption ladder by doing that even if it's something
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minor like PD Menu then how many people would run the use by getting it into a distribution
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you've made it much more useful in a way.
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But anyway since it was in Debian and it had this extendable menu things that could make
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menus by running commands Debian had this menu file that was shipped with the package
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that let the package say okay this contains this program we'll give it this name, simple
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stuff.
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Back then there wasn't really a standard for it so Debian came up with their own and
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one day I made PD Menu support it so when you run PD Menu you want a Debian system
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by default you get all the things that have menu items that are installed which is kind
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of handy.
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The weird thing about that is that as Debian kept using the menu system and desktop files
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got developed by GNOME and by the free desktop project.
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PD Menu became one of the use cases for the Debian menu system like if we get rid of
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the Debian menu system we won't be able to have PD Menu show menus but nobody of course
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uses PD Menu and yet people in Debian projects somehow know it exists and care about it which
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first of all good on y'all but secondly if I've kind of kept PD Menu has kept Debian
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from moving over to desktop files in some way or retarded that progress maybe that's
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a downside to it existing right but anyhow who knows it's impossible to tell with these
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things we know we go off we write our little things we release them to the world and they
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get used and they influence the world in ways that we will never guess and the important
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thing I think is to be mindful about what you're doing but you know try to produce something
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that's going to be useful to other people I could have written a quick shell script that
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used dialogue or a quick pro script that used dialogue and I think that's actually where
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the P and the D and PD Menu come from it was a pro script that used dialogue at first
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and it became a C program using slang but I could just stop to the pro script and used it
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myself and never distributed to anyone and it would have solved my problem I could have
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used to know my dumb terminals and I would have long ago forgotten about it and nobody
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would have used it and the world would have been just that little tiny bit worse off not
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much but enough that it's worth doing it and it's totally worth it when one day you sit
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down to look for a podcast and you see somebody using something you've pretty much forgotten
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you wrote so thanks Dave thanks Hacker Public Radio thanks for the free software community
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for making it possible for people to do this thing you know I called it PD Menu and it's
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almost like public domain menu but it is if you feel licensed and the new public license
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you know kind of pointed me in the right direction there and so I'm very pleased that it's still
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being used all these years later that's all bye
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you've been listening to Hacker Public Radio at Hacker Public Radio dot org
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we are a community podcast network that releases shows every weekday Monday through Friday
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today's show like all our shows was contributed by an HBR listener like yourself
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if you ever thought of recording a podcast and click on our contributing to find out how easy it
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really is Hacker Public Radio was founded by the digital dot org pound and the infonomicum
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computer club and it's part of the binary revolution at binwreff.com if you have comments on
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today's show please email the host directly leave a comment on the website or record a follow-up
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