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Lee Hanken
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Episode: 2687
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Title: HPR2687: Some Additional Talk About Characters -- 02
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Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr2687/hpr2687.mp3
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Transcribed: 2025-10-19 07:32:30
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---
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This in HBR episode 2687 entitled, Some Additional Talk About Character, Nero 2.
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It is hosted by Lost in Drunks and in about 13 minutes long, and Karim a clean flag.
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The summary is, Lost in Drunks takes a look at what sorts of characters work best for certain types of tales.
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Part Nero 2.
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Today's show is licensed under a CC Nero license.
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This episode of HBR is brought to you by an Honesthost.com.
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Get 15% discount on all shared hosting with the offer code HBR15.
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That's HBR15.
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Better web hosting that's Honest and Fair at An Honesthost.com.
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Hello, this is Lost in Drunks, and you'll have to forgive the sound quality I'm in the car right now.
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Today I want to talk a little bit more about characters.
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There are a couple of ways to approach characters or the inclusion of certain types of characters in stories.
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Often the choice of character is dependent upon the storytellers style of story creation.
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Some people create their characters first and then think of interesting things for those characters to do.
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Other people will create the situation and say, what's the best type of character to tell this story?
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Both of them are valid, and probably the most useful technique would be to mix them.
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So if you have, maybe it's an espionage action thing, well, I don't know what we need, but I want someone who can do all the action.
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I want maybe an undercover agent.
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I want this action character, so I don't know where this character is going to fit.
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But I'm going to make this character fifth, because this is a concept I want in my action story.
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It's a terrorist attack, crazy anti-government terrorists, and they've gotten a hold of some kind of secret nukes that can't be detected with magical radiation detectors.
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And they've smuggled it into Washington, D.C., because they're going to get rid of all their perceived enemies.
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And that's the premise. We've come up with that premise, so what kind of characters do we need?
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Well, I guarantee you that if the government knew about the bomb in advance, they would find the bomb,
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because they would arrest absolutely everybody who was even remotely involved, and they would get the information out of them.
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So in order for this story to work, they can't know about it in advance.
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So it's a complete surprise, right?
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So if it's a complete surprise, then our action hero doesn't know how to defuse it.
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That means we need somebody else.
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Again, just making up a retiree from the army who was trained in defusing nuclear weapons.
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That sounds like a very specific thing, but in point of fact, there are a bunch of people in the world who've been trained in that.
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Some of them are currently serving. Some of them are retired. This is a retiree.
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Maybe we want the retiree to be a woman because we don't often see them in roles like this.
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So here's our story. We've got it. We've got an action tale. We've got crazy villains.
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We've got a terrible calamity that needs to be averted.
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We have an action hero who's found out about it and is chasing this thing down and will find it.
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And we have someone who is poised to help.
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There are these two. We have to have them cross paths.
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And once they do, the rest of it we can fill in as we go.
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In that little scenario, we have a plot.
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And we have a character that we want to fit into this plot.
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We had that character walking in, remember?
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And more or less wrapped the plot around the character.
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But we've also gone at character through creating a character first
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and putting them in a good story and creating the story
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and putting a good character in this one tale.
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Two different approaches. Now you don't have to go that way.
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You can absolutely go one or the other entirely and come up with something fantastic.
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That was just an example to illustrate how you might approach
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creating these characters.
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Now, are these real characters?
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Are they fully fleshed out characters?
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No, we haven't even come up with a name for them yet.
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We've just come up with concepts.
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So what makes a good character in this context?
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We have to believe that these people could be real.
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They have to be realistic for the tale.
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If they're not, it's not much of a character.
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And you end up, like I mentioned in a previous episode,
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talking about character and story and story arcs,
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you end up with a character that doesn't have an arc.
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The character begins and ends exactly what they are.
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They're not really characters.
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They're adjuncts to the plot because the plot requires a character.
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It can do all these things and you've
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blocked down essentially this plot device that will function in the required manner.
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Not every story needs.
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Now, I've set that before and I'll say it again.
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Not every story needs a realistic main character.
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Not every story needs a character with a character arc.
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However, in order for that to work,
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we have to believe it within context of the tale.
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So the less realistic the character is,
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the less realistic the story has to be.
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If the story is primarily tongue in cheek
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or is very, very much just action point driven,
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that is for moment to moment to moment,
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it is nothing but action.
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We just need a character to get us from A to B to C to D.
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In that case, we don't need super developed characters.
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If it's done right, we don't even have time to get to know them.
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We're just following them in their crazy exploits on this story.
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Or if the story is more or less done,
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not necessarily for laughs, but is lighthearted,
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you can get away with having a character who's sort of like that
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because it's goofy and funny and halfway to being a joke.
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That flies, that does fly.
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There are action comedies that are exactly like that.
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There are also action comedies where the characters all have depth.
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It depends on the style of story you're telling,
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the style of plot or action that you're offering to your audience.
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However, if we are not doing that type of story
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and we have a story where we want characters with depth,
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what I just described for our espionage thriller tale
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with the crazy terrorists,
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what we want to do is we want to flesh those characters out,
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the main characters, and possibly even the villains.
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Because in the end, if we have a story like that
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that has good guys and bad guys,
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your good guys are only as powerful,
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they're only as good as your bad guys are bad.
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Your bad guys have to be formidable.
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If they are not formidable, your hero is perceived
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as never really having been threatened to begin with.
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That is the problem with a lot of action tales.
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We have these characters that are so over the top powerful.
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We all know how this is going to end.
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We all know where it's going with stories like that.
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The character is so overwhelmingly powerful
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that the bad guys have no chance against this person.
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And there's no point in even watching the tale.
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What we probably want is a character
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who has a certain amount of depth,
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a certain amount of nuance.
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And that includes both the hero and the villain.
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Because if the villain is complicated,
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if the villain has levels,
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we don't have to agree with a single thing that villain is doing.
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But if we see where that villain is coming from,
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even though the conclusions they come up with are ridiculous,
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their purpose in doing what they're doing
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has reasoning behind it.
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It might be flawed, it might be insane,
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but there is reasoning behind it.
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That character has more depth.
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They have more power and investment in the story,
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because they obviously have thought all this through.
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Not just by the amount of traps that they set for the heroes,
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by how complicated their evil plot is,
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they are deeply committed to what they're doing.
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If you have a villain who's not committed,
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they're not much of a villain.
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They're just a thug or whatever.
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They're not interesting.
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In order to be interesting,
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your villain has to be committed,
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highly committed to what they're doing.
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And that makes the stakes that much higher,
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because not only have they come up with this
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diabolical plan to blow up Washington, DC,
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they are committed to the cause,
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meaning if their plan doesn't work,
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they're going to keep trying.
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They're going to come up with something else.
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These are not people that give up.
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That makes your hero have to rise above themselves,
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essentially.
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You have a villain who's risen above themselves,
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so you have heroes that have to at least meet
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the capacity of the villain.
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If the hero is bland,
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if the hero can win easily,
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there's no point.
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There's no point.
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So that's just heroes and villains
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when it comes to characters.
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But let's change it up.
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Instead of hero and villain,
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let's say protagonist and antagonist.
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Now antagonist,
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you know, I don't really like the word.
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Sometimes because it can be a little confusing.
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And antagonist very often gets conflated
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with antagonizing.
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And antagonist in a story
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does not necessarily antagonize the protagonist.
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They only oppose them.
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You can have a drama,
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a heavy drama,
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where maybe it's two brothers
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and it's a story about fathers and sons,
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a classic story about maybe working class father
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who always wanted his sons to do better than he did.
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And maybe one of them went to college
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and the other one didn't.
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And the one who went to college
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will mix it up a little bit.
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The one that went to college is the screw up.
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That one never did make it.
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That's the near-to-well son.
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And the one that didn't rise above
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is the long-suffering son.
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The screw up for whatever reason
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is still the golden boy in the family.
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The family still looks at this kid
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like he's the greatest, but he's not.
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And the other one is just average and often forgotten
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because all he does is work for a living.
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Maybe he's a plumber.
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All he does is do plumbing work all day and come home.
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And he watches football on the weekends
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and they go camping in the summer.
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And that's about as exciting as this guy's life is.
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Whereas the other brother who went to college
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became very successful in whatever business he's doing.
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He flies all over the world
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and he goes to all these exotic places
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but his life is in his shambles.
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And he doesn't have a friend in the world
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because he's been so horrible to people.
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He's a screw up.
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He screwed up left and right.
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And there is your drama
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because the father who had all these great wishes has died.
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And these two sons have come together
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at the time of the funeral
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and we are going to examine their lives.
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We're going to see their lives.
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And if we're following one son in particular,
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that son may or may not be our protagonist.
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Perhaps we're following the near-to-well son.
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He's our antagonist.
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He's not a great guy
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because this isn't necessarily a story of redemption.
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This is not one of those stories
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where you can insert someone
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who doesn't need a character arc.
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It's a heavy drama.
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Everybody needs an arc.
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And what is this guy's arc?
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Where is he going?
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What revelation is he going to get
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that's going to bring him somewhere
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where he learns something new,
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either about himself or about his family
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or about his brother,
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his father.
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What's going to happen with this guy?
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Now I chose him
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because he's not a likable character.
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That puts the onus on the storyteller
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to make this guy tolerable.
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He's not a great guy
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but he's our main character.
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He's not our protagonist.
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He might be our antagonist
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because the guy we like,
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the other brother, the good brother,
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the one who works hard
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who provides for his family
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who never met his father's expectations
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because his father's expectations
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were unrealistic or unfair.
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And he dealt with that burden
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at home,
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close to home in the same time
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while the other brother
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went out traipsing around
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living the high life and screwing it all up.
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And we're not following the good brother
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because following the good brother
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we get boring.
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The guy's a good guy, right?
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And he's suffering
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and it's sad
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but he's a good guy.
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We want to follow the interesting guy
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who's lived the interesting life
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and somehow screwed it up.
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That's a story I want to see.
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So anyway,
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this was just a little more thought
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about how you might pick a character,
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come up with a certain type of character
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for a certain type of story
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and what we need them to do in our story.
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Just a few thoughts, that's all.
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If you have any comments
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on this episode or any other,
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please leave them in the section
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for it on Hacker Public Radio
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or better yet,
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create your own episode
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because you have opinions
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and you have interests
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and we want to hear about them.
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This has been Lost in Bronx.
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Thank you for listening.
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Take care.
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You've been listening to Hacker Public Radio
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at HackerPublicRadio.org.
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We are a community podcast network
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that releases shows every weekday
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Monday through Friday.
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Today's show, like all our shows,
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was contributed by an HPR listener like yourself.
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If you ever thought of recording a podcast
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then click on our contributing
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to find out how easy it really is.
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Hacker Public Radio was founded
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by the digital dog pound
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and the infonomicum computer club
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and is part of the binary revolution
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at binwreff.com.
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If you have comments on today's show,
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please email the host directly,
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leave a comment on the website
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or record a follow-up episode yourself
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unless otherwise stated.
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Today's show is released
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under Creative Commons'
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Attribution ShareLive 3.0 license.
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