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Lee Hanken
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hpr_transcripts/hpr3903.txt
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Episode: 3903
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Title: HPR3903: Why I don't love systemd (yet)
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Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3903/hpr3903.mp3
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Transcribed: 2025-10-25 07:44:48
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---
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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3903 for Wednesday the 19th of July 2023.
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Today's show is entitled, Why I Don't Love System D Yet.
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It is part of the series' information underground.
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It is hosted by Deep Geek, and is about seven minutes long.
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It carries a clean flag.
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The summary is, Clotu reads a script by Deep Geek about System D.
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Hey everybody, this is Clotu, but I'm not speaking as Clotu today.
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I am speaking as Deep Geek.
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This is a script for an episode that Deep Geek sent to me and requested that I read more
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or less in his voice, except not literally in his voice.
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I don't do impressions.
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So here it is.
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This is him.
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This is Deep Geek, not me.
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I don't like System D yet.
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I've been meaning to put down my thoughts about System D for the HPR community for some
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while.
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So here it goes.
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I want to say that I'm not a System D hater.
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When System D was a hot topic of debate, many became irrational over it.
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But I want to start by saying that I don't think it's a bad technology.
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I think it's a rather good technology.
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I just don't want it on my personal computer.
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So I'd like to run things down in this order.
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What is it, as in what is it really?
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What makes it a good technology?
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Why I don't want it now, but might later.
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And a few tips for you if you decide that you don't want to use System D yourself.
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System D is not an init system.
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System D includes an init system.
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System D init was faster than sysv init.
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That System D init isn't the fastest init system.
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And sysv init now has a parallelization helper at least on Debian.
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So if System D init is not System D, then what is System D?
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To understand this, we must first understand something about Linux.
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Linux operates under a model where there are root processes and there are user processes.
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These two kinds of processes are usually called layers.
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System D is actually a third layer.
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This can be called a system layer.
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So when System D is added to a Linux system, that changes the system so that there are three
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layers.
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A root layer, a user layer, and a system layer.
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As such, you now ask System D to set how the system runs.
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This is why System D includes things like an init system.
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Because if you want to change what the system is running, you ask System D to change it.
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System D then messages an appropriate system to implement the change.
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Like messaging it's init system to bring up or bring down a system demon.
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Once you play out this in your head of it, you really realize that System D acts more
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like a message passing system in a certain aspect.
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So why do I say System D is a good technology?
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Because this can standardize system control.
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Without System D, a fleet of computers becomes like individual fingerprints or unique snowflakes.
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If you manage many computers as many professional IT people do, you want them to all run the
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same.
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All have the same profiles and general configurations.
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So if you have a bunch of computers, you are running.
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You can run a lot more if they are all running the same way.
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If your job requires you to run 10,000 web servers, you want them to run identically because
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it is impossible to keep an understanding of 10,000 unique configurations in a human head.
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System D really shines in its support of virtualization as well.
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So to speak of servers, I used to run an email server for a few friends.
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Each of us had a user ID and number as Unix users.
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The mapping of Unix user IDs and post-fix user IDs can get confusing when it gets really,
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really big.
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Thanks to System D's virtualization work, you can actually put a service like email into
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a namespace situation.
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So it has only the user's root and the demon user ID like post-fix.
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So System D greatly enhances security for server installations.
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This might help explain its dominance in Linux distributions that have been traditionally
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server-centric like Debian and Red Hat.
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So why don't I want it?
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Well, I've been doing a lot of talking about professional computer work and corporate
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work environments, but I use a personal computer as a hobby.
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I've been out of industry for decades now, and when I say personal computer, I'm not
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talking about a hardware specification, rather, I'm talking about this is my personal
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computer where I do things my way as opposed to my work computer where I do my companies
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way.
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Dear listener, please remember that I did the first community show contribution to
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HPR and my topic was about personalization.
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For me, a hobbyist interested in operating system experimentation, I don't want a system
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layer.
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I want a traditional Unix-like system that operates on a two-layer model and does things
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my way, nobody else's way.
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So what advice can I give to those who don't want System D now?
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Well, recently I've left Debian.
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Debian, you see, supports init system diversity, but as you now know, dear listener, that
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is different than being without System D. You may have heard that System D is Linux-specific.
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That is to say that it runs only on Linux, not anything like BSD or Windows.
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But what you might not know is that it is also GNU-Lib-C-specific, which means that
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the C compiler must use GNU-Lib-C standard library.
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Thus, if you have a system built around the Musil-C standard library, like on Alpine
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or Void, or a system like Android that runs on the Bionic-C standard library, you won't
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have a System D system.
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I'm personally learning Void as its package manager supports both Binary and a Port's
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collection, much like the BSDs, but that's what I'm doing on my personal computer.
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I leave you with the freedom to do things your way on your personal computer.
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This has been Clat 2, reading a script by DeepGeek.
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These have been DeepGeek's thoughts and words, not mine, although frankly, I agree with
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everything he has said, except his use of Void Linux, of course, I'm a Slackware user,
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but the Spirit certainly, I agree with what he's saying about System D, about layers of
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the system.
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I think that was really great insight.
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I hope you enjoyed it.
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Thanks for listening.
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You have been listening to Hacker Public Radio at HackerPublicRadio.org.
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Today's show was contributed by a HBR listener like yourself.
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If you ever thought of recording podcasts, then click on our contribute link to find out
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how easy it really is.
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Hosting for HBR has been kindly provided by an onsthost.com, the Internet Archive and
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our Sync.net.
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On this advice status, today's show is released on our Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International
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License.
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