Episode: 4537
Title: “Elsbeth in IT: Since ’97” (Part 1)
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr4537/hpr4537.mp3
Transcribed: 2026-07-31 16:13:27 (official HPR transcript)

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 4537, for 2025-12-23
Today's show is entitled, "“Elsbeth in IT: Since ’97” (Part 1)"
The host is Elsbeth and the duration is 00:43:07
The flag is Explicit, and the license is CC-BY-SA
The summary is "Elsbeth talks to Lee about what it has been like since approx 1997 working in different parts of IT."
Hi, I'm Lee, I'm joined today with Elzbeth and we're going to talk a bit about her experiences in the IT field and some of the larger issues around that subject
So let's start here. What first drew you into the IT field back in the early 2000s and what did the industry look like for women at that time?
My first computer that I have was shared with my ex husband who had decided that that was something that he wanted to get into. He wanted to learn how to fix and repair computers
Which at that point in time you didn't have to have a degree just had to have some experience and practice and usually in a plus certification
That could get your foot in the door somewhere like geek squat or best buyer somewhere to help 10 people's computers
Or even work independently
As he started pittling around with computers and what not that was my introduction to
The idea that maybe I could do that because I would help him learn how to do what he was doing and I would
I would build along with him and tear apart and you know what not
It was kind of like being the only female in a D&D group
Right, where it was really cool that you wanted to be a part of it, but you know, no, you're a place
I wouldn't say that he necessarily had that mentality but over time as we both were learning to
Build our own computers and repair other people's computers and learning a little bit about software and just communications and whatnot
It became more and more apparent that
While it was nice to have a female that could talk the talk
When it got to the point of where I could walk the walk and maybe just a little better than some of the guys
That's when it became kind of a shut down thing all you if it's really isn't
This isn't your niche, you should be looking for something more, you know, something different to do
And it didn't come all at once, it wasn't like a
I'd probably say between like 90s
95, 96 to probably about
2005 and I'm going further than that first marriage because that's where I got introduced to this
But when I moved on and I was in another relationship with somebody who was also in the software side of IT
That mentality was still there of
It's nice, it's cute that you know the girl can do something but leave it to the voice
Right, so we working with other people at that point
It was all independent in 2000 I started working as tech support
It a call center so basically people would call that was 2000 was when everybody wanted to have their own ISP for their business
So that it would draw people to their business
Every store would have a dial up ISP that people could get for free and they could get on to the internet and explore this new world
And it was, it was a new experience
And it was like being able to be in that and it was I only worked there for six months
Because there was a lot of sexism in that industry
And like there was her sexual harassment and other things that were going on that was just not addressed whatsoever
You know inappropriate comments made by co-workers
And people trying to like inner office affairs and other people trying to push affairs and whatnot
It was kind of like females entering the military a few years before account about five or ten years before
Men could not handle women being in the industry that they wanted to dominate
And I know that that's not a popular thing to hear but that's what was going on
Guys trying to in the call center that we're doing tech support way way more poorly than you were as a female
Would sexually harass you to get you to quit so that they could get the promotion within the corporation
And I was actually the first one in our little my ex husband and his little core group of friends to actually get a job in IT at all
And I mean core group there were other people that we knew that worked in different aspects of IT
But I didn't realize it back then, but I realized now that my getting that job actually was an ego blow
Right to and it was kind of the final nail in the coffin of my marriage at that time because
My working in that industry and my doing well even though I was being sexually harassed and bullied in the workplace
By both co-workers and managers of the opposite sex
That was a confidence boost because I was like oh I can do this
Yeah, and maybe I did get bullied out of that position, but I never fully got out of IT
Until about
Two two years ago
Okay, so actually over the years and that span that whole period
What kind of roles did you hold so throughout your IT career and how did your responsibilities above over those years
Well after that particular position until I went into QA in a call center
Every single other position or any sort of work that I did in IT was under the table
And part of startup companies where I would do quality assurance work through
Basically, I worked for a startup company that someone started and had hired and gave my ex-husband
Ownership shares of the company because of the amount of work that he did that so it isn't actually charged for
This was the OSecond husband. Yes, yes, I will not name names. I'm not doing that
But it was great. I loved I learned how to do QA with minimal guidance
At the time I think he was trying to show me that I could actually do something in the IT industry
The problem was during the time that I worked for him to the point in time that I wasn't working for him anymore
It became
The so many people had gotten into IT and so many people were getting degrees in IT that it became
Standard to request that you had at least a bachelor's degree in computer science
To get any role that I had already been doing without any education
How was it being self-taught and how are you treated being someone who was self-taught
Might be like running your career versus someone who'd gone through the degree route
Well, the degree route pot people a standardized version just like most education systems
Teach a standardized way to do things
And because this was IT software developers would create the next big software program or methodology that would
Be the industry standard of quality assurance
Sigma six is what's that and that started in the manufacturing industry
And I have actually done the Sigma six training I worked as a quality assurance analyst or assistant
Associate analyst in a call-centered environment for a company that had I love this company
I think they're really really good
I think as all companies do they make some poor choices and they have to deal with the consequences of them
And I unfortunately because I was contract and was an on full-time permanent not I was working full-time
But I was still contracting and I lost my contract because of a an error in a different department
It's put that way that affected the entire company
But they had a great education suite for their employees
And when you had time off the clock
Or not off the clock but on the clock, but if you had time you could use your lunch break or something to do some studies
And I went through the entire Sigma six training through them
The only thing I didn't do was didn't get certified because that costs a crap ton of money
Here's the thing though
Sigma six is a great quality assurance training for the manufacturing industry
And software that deals with manufacturing that would be great too
But when you're talking about software development and QA and testing and sources and whatnot, there are other options
That I think are just as valuable to be self taught in that
You have to have an element of logic, you have to have an element of tracking your data
There are aspects to that but to be able to get in the quality assurance software industry now
You have to have a degree and you have to have Sigma six training
Okay, so actually back then, would you say my colleagues had an advantage even if they were self taught and didn't have a degree?
Absolutely
I want to keep this a moderate rating for this podcast, but I cannot emphasize enough
But a self taught man could walk in with a resume and what they had experienced
And I could have even better qualifications and that man would still get the job
Okay, so whether moments when you thought that what you contributed to the companies you were at or the situations you were kind of overlooked or minimized at all
Just like every other industry including let's go back to aid a love life
Who gets credited for creating the first computer?
Wasn't it Charles Babbage?
Except for it was aid a love life
Yeah, right did she mail that this is now Mike or so that night she might be invented programming techniques
Where is Babbage was putting the gaze together?
Except for he gets all the credit for it
Right in the geek community, especially within the female geek community
I mean, it's known it's it's put out there, but common knowledge is going to I would almost but if I looked it up on chat GPT right now
Before hers, it would be mentioned, but his name would come up before hers
Right, right, yeah, goes what good is it light of coax unless you can write a program for it?
Exactly. Yeah, my experiences in IT in role plane and anything that was traditionally a male dominated role or
We're not have been taken and put under somebody else's name. I have no way to prove that I have done what I've done in the IT industry
Because it's all been under a man's name
Like I told you that I did 15 years in QA and start up software development company
Yeah, I did all the QA. My name is
No where they are other than a minor portion of ownership shares to a company where that software is not even used anymore
Yeah, actually I'm just thinking and I've got a little smile on my face, but I'm just thinking about those buttons that we worked on for the website for this podcast
And the graphical design for it and
What you did was instrumental, but then I kind of versioned it with CSS or whatever
And you weren't too happy with my version of it and so I ended up
No, I liked your version of it, but it was directly, they say imitation is of the most sincerest form of flattery
As an artist and as a writer in this case, it was a
Direct inspiration of what I created, but it wasn't what I created. Yeah, yeah, if that makes sense
And I'm not mad about it. It looks great
The point I was coming to is if you look at the githy repository, it's got my name when it doesn't have your name at all
The original thing, so it's almost like history repeating itself
You've done the thing that actually was quite the thing is, I don't necessarily need credit for it
But I believe that I should be able to work in an industry that I can prove myself that if you just let me do my job
Yeah, you know
And I think maybe my feelings on that are a little heightened because of my neurodivergence
Because I'm currently sitting in a position where I can't work in that industry and receive a salary that will help support me
And there's a lot of consequences to that, like I can't get in health insurance, I can't get
I can't even work in a job where I'm not physically in pain because I don't qualify
Yeah, I remember when I back in the 90s I worked fairly well known software company
I mean they've changed their name, but then now more well known
Most of the managers were actually female
There was a pretty much a 50-50 mix of men and women working in
I mean more of the programming side of things were maybe favourite being male
But more engagement side of things favourite being female in the mid 90s
Okay
Do you think that and this was in the UK basis in the international company
Do you acknowledge is there a difference in this in the culture of the things between the different countries?
Well, there's a distinction there that you are probably missing
They worked as managers
Were they actually software developers?
Were they actually QA or were they just the people that were the person that could be bullied
Into getting somebody else to do something that they wanted them to do
I think they were managing the projects and the part of their role might have been software development as well
Some of the software as you'd hands on software developers were female
I'm asking this because it's a communications thing
So let's say one of these project managers really wanted to be in the IT industry
They had the IT knowledge
But they couldn't get on as a developer
Right
But they would get hired on as a project manager because the project manager is the person
The person that is the the glue between the stakeholders and what they want financially
But they also want put into the system
And the developers who are like, dude, I'm trying to make what you're telling me you want
But this isn't going to work
The project manager is that communications connoisseur
Who will let the stakeholders know that the developers are doing the best that they can do
And the expectations that they have, however they need a deadline extension
So that they can complete the extra items that you have asked them to put into something they've already developed
And then they have to go back to the developers and be like, the stakeholders want you to, you know, this is a communications thing
It's about somebody who can manage their emotions and not lose their ever living minds
When two distinctly different personalities are disagreeing on how something should be done
The developers look at the world a certain way and the stakeholders look at things a certain way
I'm getting there with this because the stakeholders are mostly men
And the developers are mostly men
If there was a male project manager and any one of those individuals had a bad day or was in their ego
That could cause some serious conflict and it could cause days if not weeks of delay and development
Okay, I've probably there right there repeated one
So what other stereotypes about women in tech that you encounter most often
And how did they sharpen daily work life
stereotypes
In no way could I be more intelligent or more capable than any other man
Like it didn't matter if I did something that was just innovative
That innovation would either be stolen and credited to somebody else that was a male
Or it would be like there's no way you got that from somebody else
What they would you know what forum you know or what you know where did you get that information from that had to have been some guy
It couldn't possibly have been I observed the situation analyzed it
And realized that if we looked at it from a different perspective and tweaked
This by the certain way to make it look a different way it could be more cohesive that way
And any more productive
I think that the other stereotype is and this is something that's
I don't think it's talked about enough is that technology isn't just for the coder
The developers can make amazing things happen
But if they don't make it visually
Accessible
And pleasing to the user who is not a developer
Their code isn't worth anything but to themselves
I've heard it actually said more than once recently that the term user is a bit of a
And if he term and this is something I've thought about
Because you have you have drug users and certainly in my past I've been called a service use a bit of use
Like to health services
Or autism services I've been called a service use and there's always seems to be there's a power imbalance between the user who's forced the use the system
And the developer of the creator who creates the system
Can you think of a better way of framing that that is not just changing terminology but is actually
Generally re-empowering the people who are actually the part of the software being there in the first place
I love the term end user
Because it's the person beyond the developer and the stakeholders that are creating something
So the person is actually going to use it's the end of the line that's the last person that's going to use the software
Or the system or whatever
User isn't a negative term if it's used with the correct definition
You know it's not a user somebody who abuses
The system it's not you know that's not what the term user means
User means the person is interacting
You know if I have a radio a physical radio like we had back in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s
If I had that radio I am the user that turns the knob on that turns the music but then I also tune it
That's not a negative connotation and that's exactly what I mean when you're talking about user in software in hardware
So on and so forth
So I like the term end user because that's the last person in the development process
It's going to use this and that could be multiple people
And the reason I like that is that end user isn't the exact same
It's going to be whoever actually is using the product at any given time
So part of and just to go on to my some of my interests a little bit in this a little bit more
This is perhaps why like things like Linux systems where you're not just assumed to be a user in quotes
You have an equal part and maybe it's because I'm in a privileged position because I understand
I have the ability to actually
Technically tune reengineer even what's in front of me
I'm not just rely and in fact if I'm in it if I'm presented with something where I have no opportunity to customize and reengineer it
I feel like I'm disempowered
I mean is that how you see things or do you think there is a place for just software to be a black box that you just does what it's supposed to
And there's and it doesn't have this openness that you can actually reach open the box reach inside and tinker around with it
I'm trying to formulate a response here because I never considered
Software being static if you will
Like once it's done it's done
Because I don't think that that's how software is
Software is a continual work and progress
So it's hard work for that matter. I mean look how fast new the new latest greatest thing comes in
It seems of it seems a bit paradoxical
Doesn't it that you'd think a proper specific problem could be just solved once and for all solved
And yet we in the world where the problem has to be resolved over and over again by countless
Well, if you were solving for just one user
Then there is an end
There is an end
Software
Incorporates like the accessibility to multiple users multiple individuals who are different ways of thinking ways of learning ways of putting things into practice
So software is an ultimately is an ever changing ever developing thing
At some point in time
It may become antiquated and there's a new development and a new piece of software works better
So in that sense then yes, but then it just doesn't get used
Do you think actually software would be better or would have been better or has become better because there are more
There's more input from that there's to have more gender equality in software production
Actually improves the software in numerous ways
I think that while a younger generation than me of females have and other
Diversity's have gone into education that has taught them
In a sense that gets them into a degree that would allow them to be hired by these
You know companies as a whole because right now self-taught people are not being hired
Unless they have a resume that is consistent and when you are a female who has chosen to prioritize raising your kids
And yet still has worked under the table as QA you don't get that
So these younger women that have come up they have become more vocal about the inequalities
And yet until there is a change how corporate politics are done
That doesn't make it easy to cover up the inequalities
And until we have made more progress in that regard
It will not be fully equal between men and women in the industry
I guess what I'm trying to say is there isn't equality in the industry now
Even though we've come a long way
Okay, so to talk with you, you mentioned there other types of diversity
So for example, how did you balance your neurodivergence with the expectations in the culture of the early 2000s?
I didn't know I was neurodivergent until 2000s
18 or 19
So I think that's a valid question to ask though because I would not when I was working in the call center that I mentioned earlier on
Doing tech support
There were
Triggering to me in that environment
But I think the work from home for call centers things that started in COVID was the best possible thing ever
Because I think that people that work in call centers should be able to be at home
Well, I know that comes with a bunch of other aspects of what if they're not doing their drag ride
There's some issues there that I can expand upon
But I will say that because of the neurodivergence aspect, there are aspects that people that are neurodivergent that could profit from working from home
And that was not something that was even on my radar
Even when my second husband was regularly doing software development jobs from home
It would have never been on my radar that I could have worked from home
With what I had learned and whatnot
And I think a lot of that comes from the aspect of I didn't have the degree
So I kind of let that be the hang up
But the elements that working from home would have allowed me to prosper in the industry
Would have been I could have kept the lights at the level that were comfortable to me
I could have got a blue screen in front of my monitor and what not to be able to be more productive
And not have my eyes weary from staring at a screen all the time
I could stem without causing other people to make comments about my stemming
There's a lot of aspects that
Not knowing I was neurodivergent if I'd had known that maybe I could have been more successful
Because I would have already been able to know how to communicate my different abilities in the way I think and process
And how that manifests where I could have maybe self-advocated that I could prove better
That I was able to do these things
Whether it be QA or even building computers or without having the pressure of being forced to mask in a corporate environment
So if I wanted to work at Best Buy I would have had to be able to work on a computer in an open space where people
Customers could see me working on the computers and I would have felt like I had to
When I'm working on a computer, I'm talking to myself, I'm doing this that and the other
I'm not trying to perform like a corporate stage
That's not how I best build a computer or work with the software or test software
The industry as I started working in building computers and repairing them
My neurodivergence would not have allowed me to be successful in that industry as far as in a store
And that's maybe why it never happened
Yeah
All right, let's move on a little bit
What was the main thing that pushed you to leave the IT space
I couldn't get a QA position
I had been working for 15 years
Yes, I know 15 years is a long time, but it was a startup company
Back company was in the process of restructuring as another company
And I had been doing the software testing and quality assurance
Kind of being kind of go between
I would not label myself as project
Being a position that I performed some project manager role
It's actually just taking a step back
So you were working an IT as you described your working for an internet service provider
And
No
Blue, was it blue space
Who's like.com?
I worked for a call center that did the tech support for BlueLight.com
I think I can say that now because that's long been sent shut down
Yeah, yeah
Like that was back in 2000
Dial up ISPs aren't a thing anymore
Yeah, I mean, I think the telecom providers like would set up as ISPs
But then even you had like supermarkets itself as an ISP
And that's like that
Yeah, that's what I'm saying
Everybody in their dog wanted their own dialogue to get some advertising for their own business
And you also mentioned it's trying to piece these bits to give you also mentioned your building computers
So what context was that?
I mean what who were your customers
At friends
Right people you knew
Friends and friends of friends
It was all mostly under my first husbands
You know, he would build I would build you know
Yeah, so it's like almost like a micro business
Yeah, I was a mom though
Like I was a young mom, you know, I could do all that stuff
And I could do it as a young mom, but I you know
And I'm very I'm very genuine when I say that
I am not bashing him for taking credit for it at this point in time that's so long passed
But I probably did just as much computer builds as he did
For stuff that he had done for other people
It does kind of fall under the I didn't get credit for it aspect of it
But that was the way the industry was at the time
Then you ended up transitioning to you mentioned so tech support was this like first line support or second line support
Or the or you mentioned QA was like like QA within a tech support role
Well the next
role that I had after doing that because I was a stay at home mom and just building computers and studying for my A plus and all that
Was as the tech support for blue light calm
Right that was through a call center
It wasn't directly paid through blue light just clarifying there
So that course into that course into the due when you with calls to do then progress
Did you the escalate calls to another department after handling the call or you had to be like hands on of
Self in the problem self in the technical problems as as they kind as with any call center even today
They want the first line of
You know the first person that takes the call to solve the issue. Yeah, that is the goal
You have to have people that are very very empathetic
And yet able to set very very firm boundaries that you can help take care of their issue
And make them feel confident
You're always going to get somebody that wants to speak to a supervisor or the manager or whatever
My job was to
Help the customer feel confident enough that they didn't need to be escalated to a supervisor
So were you overseeing yeah, so were you overseeing other
Cool handlers or you were handing the calls yourself
Well, when I was speaking earlier about the whole
Sexual harassment in the workplace
Yeah, I never got to that point because I was good. I should have been promoted
But I wasn't because there were other people that were trying to
I was being sexually harassed by different individuals
To make me feel like they were trying to make me seem crazy and erratic in the worst place
So I wouldn't get promoted
Because I was reporting these issues to HR
Okay
Once you get HR involved back then it was a mess
So I never was able to be promoted because of that
Okay, so what your job was to take a call
And tell the customer what they needed to do to solve their specific problem
Okay, so wouldn't
Okay, so an example would be
Best murderals and says
Something's wrong with my cup holder and he helped me fix it
And yes, I know this is a big you know old school geek joke
But it happened
I'm not kidding
And I have to explain to that individual that that was not in fact a cup holder
But if they pulled their cup out of it
And it was still not sliding in and out
Then they would need to take it to get their computer repaired
That was not an issue with the ISP
That wasn't an issue
They needed to actually use that
But the disk in to dial up to the ISP
Yeah, so it's like it was a bit difficult
Because you're not just hand holding people through you dialing up on the modem
You're like basically providing the complete sweet of support
The people need to use the computer in the first place
Because that people just don't distinguish between that
And the technicalities of putting it in the password and a phone number
So you love a particular show
And we watched it together when I was there
And he says, well did you turn it off and turn it back on again?
Yes, Roy says that
That
That was probably the phrase I used the most
During that job
Because you're dealing with a time period when the average individual
If they had enough money to have a computer
And have a phone line could get on to the internet
If they knew how to do it
You know how to use the equipment
And my job mostly was teaching people how to use the computer
So when I was talking about escalating
I wasn't necessarily mean reporting to your manager
About a complaint, I just mean that they were...
Oh, you mean escalating in the call
Yeah, they might have actually been a genuine problem
I mean I noticed unlikely
I actually have been a genuine problem that wasn't just the customer
Not knowing how to do things
But then might actually be a problem with the ISP
I was hoping
Probably clarify you that my job was also to make the customer
Not realize there was a problem
Right, okay
So let's say the ISP was having a glitch and just was not working
It was my job
In three minutes or less by the way
To convince the customer that it was their computers problem
Right, okay
That is what we instructed to do
You're temporarily out of RAM
It's not that we're having a power case that you're temporarily out of RAM
You just have to wait till the RAM subsides a little bit
And then you'll be after dialing
Yeah
Yeah, that was a fun time
Trying to convince people that
I, that's exactly it was a big issue for me
So I would just basically explain to the customer that
They needed to turn their computer off
And let it set for ten minutes and then come back and try
I would say something like that, you know
In ten minutes somebody's going to scroll and do something else
Look it back to it when they get it back to it
And hopefully by then the ISP was back up and they could use it
Yeah, realistically if you have somebody
They'll offer a period of time to do something else away from the computer
They're going to get just at that point in time
They're going to get distracted enough
That the computer can wait
But that was also a time period when
We didn't have a computer being held in our hands
Yeah
Yeah, so you'd been doing that textbook role
That wasn't necessarily QA
So how did that evolve into doing quality assurance?
Well that was a job that I got out of necessity
The call center job was a job I got out of necessity
But trying to be in the IT industry to some degree
My time period of that call center came to an end
Because I literally could not, I want I could not get to work
Because I did not have a vehicle
Two I was also like mentally dealing with the other issues
That I had spoken about before when I misunderstood your comment about escalation
And at that point in time all of that came to a head
And I suddenly found myself in the middle of a separation and divorce
I needed to get a job that I could actually get to
And because I didn't have a car because of the separation
I had to choose to do something else for work
Yeah, I had it QA come about
QA came about when my second husband who
He was a suffered developer when I met him
And had been for quite some time
He was asked by you know I'm trying to remember how he and the creator of the company
Interacted somehow or another he got connected with this gentleman
That had an idea for software but was not a developer himself
And it was for something all I'm going to say is it was for something in the health care wellness bubble
And he started decoding that software for him
And over time they needed somebody my ex husband needed somebody to test the software for him
But they didn't have the funds to pay somebody that had a degree
Or had more experience so he asked me to look at it
And he had been asking me to look at it and trying things out
And eventually he realized I'm pretty good at this because I have
An act of seeing things from different angles and trying things different ways
And he ultimately wound up having me do the QA portion
He would send a bill for his software development stuff
But then there would be a QA invoice as well
And that was just the work I did
It was never officially under my name
And that's how I got into QA
I taught myself how to effectively
Look at every aspect of the software from both a usability and a practicality standpoint
And do test studies and keep data records and whatnot
Okay
We'll continue with this chat in the future episode
Thanks for listening
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