Episode: 1239
Title: HPR1239: HPR Saturday Sessions: What is hacking?
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1239/hpr1239.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-17 22:12:08

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I'm I suggest we just cut off the beginning and now start to think up a way we can attack
this so I guess we can start with what is hacking yeah we got plenty of people here were
opinions three of them at least do you want to like run down the definition of the individual
people before we're going to start discussing it or show we take some definition from somewhere
and then shoot holes in it oh we can we can throw out our own personal definitions and work
from there in alphabetical order go for it dude man thanks well I like the prudest definition but
when you were talking you know what is the definition I think that we we have to ask you know
a lot of people because the definition in my opinion depends upon each individual's interpretation
you know there might be some Wikipedia or some apparently official definition but everybody
interprets that differently differently and more complicated and that's part of the fun and
what creates the discussion and sometimes contention between us so for me hacking I take it in
his broadest sense and just the analogy is a hacksaw where that you can use for cutting things apart
and looking into them and so I think of the word either a computer hacker somebody who does that
in the realm of computer technology and software specifically about the word hacker generally
I'm thinking you know when the broader category of someone who's trying to understand the world
about him that's where I'm coming from yeah I think I'm actually in agreement you were saying
earlier it's not all computers and that's kind of what I what I was getting on in the emails
there is that there's a heavy emphasis on computer hackers who are hackers but I think other people
also fit the category especially considering that on hacker public radio there are a lot of really
good shows that really don't have anything to do with computer programming yeah I I kind of kept
out of it I saw a few comments and then I saw pokies response and I can only remember vaguely but it
was like trying to keep it all inclusive and not narrowing down the term to be just computer related
you know because there were probably a lot of people out there who think all you know I'm not
quite good enough or I can't call myself a hacker because I don't have the skills but for me
it's about any any level you're at you know no matter if it's my my seven-year-old son or my two-year-old
daughter you know they're digging a hole with a spoon in the garden or something they kind of
hacking away they've got a tool they're trying to take something apart or look into something can
for me hacking is is about looking at the universe and I'm trying to make sense of it and we might
make something useful we might destroy something but the useful thing that's left at the end of the
day is we've learned something you know or we've had some experience so there's really not much
difference between a hacker and a scientist I would actually say the the scientists they used
to be hackers but now they're just and maybe to create some contention here but you've there
isn't really any or much independent science nowadays you know because it's so expensive and
usually the people who have the money they want some return for it so I would say the hacker
is really the the original real science okay but philosophically pretty much the same there yeah I
think so I think so you know all I meant to say was that scientists generally they're limited by
finances and by by what they can actually look into you know because you've got to get funding
for to look into something yeah actually I don't you mean there and there's a lot of functional
fixedness that has crept into into science you get biologists and they'll go out and they'll buy
kits for everything rather than making their own solutions or investigating too deeply but I think
there's still some good science going on but yeah you're right it's it's getting to the point where
it's a lot of what you hear about is is very expensive and hard to get into yeah I mean I'm maybe
a podcast about science and whether it's any goodies is for a separate debate and I'd have plenty
I'm sure that's not that but I think your analogy that hacker is really kind of a discoverer
and explorer scientist if you like because that's like I guess the original meaning of the word
scientist is to try and understand and explore I guess I'm not sure for sure but I like I like that
what do you know I'm afraid I pretty much have to agree on the subject I was in a discussion
about the subject by accident by chance yesterday evening I was at the birthday party of the
friend of my sister and there was this one guy and yet this android phone and it was like check
this out I have this app and then I press some button and now I can download three apps well to
that I replied like yeah great but maybe how sure are you whether or not you're also now sending
all your contact information your contacts information to the other people and he was like I'd
never really thought about that and well we continued about how how the phone works because well I
I'm a programmer I yeah I started software engineering at the university so I kind of know
how the device works and go ahead sorry and in the end he was we when we were going home he was
you know I'm a I'm a I'm a construction worker myself and I've I've learned that when I drive
with my my card have to which call it whatever when you have a higher higher load you need to
drive more safely and there's I never really thought the same way that about that about computers
I always thought it was some magic box but now I understand there's really more going on than
just some magic and I think the core belief for being a hacker is trying to understand that kind
of magic and in this very instance it happened to be a computer but it could also have been
something else music it could have been whatever yeah I really like that Nido the one problem I
I guess I'm having with the the analogy to science is a usually science the fields of science
are too narrow you know and specialized and then it makes it difficult to draw observations across
fields or the the different the different areas of scientists you know the biologists or physicists
or even within just one of those disciplines they hardly ever speak to each other or don't even
aren't even a man and I think that is kind of limiting generally being a hacker which is to
comprehend the world and and to make it work well for us well in the sense of the difference between
the hacker and scientist in this I kind of I wish to disagree there's a lot of cross I actually
I think really all that's being discovered lately is the cross references between the different
sciences working together and understanding their problem from the perspective of another
discipline I'm thinking that's a problem within science that there's nobody really looking
into their own fields or actually advancing what's going on but that most of what's going on right
now is the discoveries through multidisciplinary multidisciplinary sciences so combining one
science with another well you know I probably will still disagree because I mean I understand in
some senses it seems like they're kind of borrowing from each other and communicating to make
kind of shared discoveries or whatever but just you know if I look at the the business the so
the science of business or the science of agriculture or you know the science of schools and education
I think a lot of them they don't understand and maybe it's a subject for another another
podcast as well if anyone has interest but I don't think they they really understand how it all
interrelates with each other and affects each other you know for well maybe I will mention this
I'll I'll let it be no I'm actually gonna completely agree with you there I think the fact that
we now have more discoveries from combining science rather than actually forwarding something
has to do with the fact that we're late with actually noting that the other sciences are related
and on the other point and I think we're now starting in the top scientist and I thought we were
going together for with what's a hacker so maybe it's a good idea to agree on this and then
continue with the discussion about hackers yeah I agree that's why I decided not to say anything
came on please yeah I was just gonna about it and say this does being interdisciplinary make them
more or less hackers I think interdisciplinary and to be able to see the bigger picture and be
terribly in detail it's a bit like what see the Renaissance man you know gotta have skill and
expertise at least to some extent in in every field I feel otherwise you don't necessarily know how
it relates or how it's connected so I think the ultimate hacker is like the the Renaissance man
is it layout in the the the vinescence man who just is skilled in many many many many many things
well I'd agree that's a desirable trait but is it necessary to be a hacker I don't think it's
actually necessary I mean for that one dude who really only cares about this one little thing
and only extensive knowledge of other subjects within the realm of understanding that one thing
he really wants to understand and be it how a processor works or how to make music in a certain way
or whatever I I think that person also qualifies as a hacker yeah I agree with you what I meant to say
was it depends to the degree with which you're able to hack in different disciplines or comprehend
different areas as to your general compare your general skills and abilities and you know
there's there's never possible to exclude anybody from being a hacker in my definition of the
word because hacking is just about a desire to learn and destructing or constructing things
towards that end to all that pursuit you know but I think the degree and the skill of which we
can comprehend the the things are only magnified by the number of different disciplines or
different areas we have explored throughout our lives you know so but that doesn't diminish any kind
of like a limit you know narrower view of hacking in any one discipline you know they're still
hacking but it's just it seems obvious to me if you expand it into different areas then
you're the you know the skills you can carry from one to another you know as an example if you
if you know one practical things with with your hands I don't know type in on a keyboard or
you know playing a musical instrument if already got some skills with your fingers you know
some coordination maybe some strength in your fingers so then to be able to pick up something else
becomes easier you know and so I don't know that helps to to describe what I meant
so being a hacker isn't something you are it's something you do is that is that accurate
I guess it depends on the person if he says you know I am what I do then
he is a he's a hacker and he does hacking you know but do we define ourselves by what we do
or I don't know I mean there is that point where there is the question whether somebody
is a hacker or not how much of that is actually in the hands of that person or rather another group
of persons I mean most most internet fandoms have some sort of rule like you can be part of this
you think you are a part of this and by that extent you would say like I am a hacker because I
consider myself a hacker this is quite this is quite why I like Pokey's post because he was
wanting us to use I my understanding was use the term in an inclusive way to encourage people
who they might not be confident enough to call themselves by this sort of classy apparently good
term that you know I'm something good I mean we're all something good if if we want to be because
we're trying to learn we're trying to make our way in the world and make sense of what's going on
you know we all have different starting points it's like the term doctor or you know lawyer or
whatever we want to use it's usually their ways of divide or they can be used as a as a term to
divide classes of people you know to create division or to raise one person above another and I
was understanding from Pokey's you know email that it's really more constructive to not use it
for for sort of artificially elevating ourselves at the exclusion of pushing anyone else down
so we've got a visitor welcome rd61 morning guys can you hear me a lot better than you they could
hear me when I started I was just messing with audacity to do recording and I want to see if it
affected my mumble settings any well you are coming to quite clearly actually if you want to
to record something to the day we are a right smack bang in the middle of making a hacker public
radio episodes trying to create a good definition for the word hacker am I a hacker I say very
broad term yes so far I think we've agreed on that part of it yep do you want give your personal
view on the on the subject yeah I could I could add a little bit to it I think well be my guest
how would you describe the word hacker well first of all I think you would have to clarify what you
are hacking as far as now I could say that I'm a hacker in a sense of the mechanical version of it
because I enjoy mechanic work and if I let's say I have a vehicle so to say that's not it's not
running right and the configuration of the of the way the electrical systems work and is not
working and I can't find the alternator that I need for the car and I by one out of the scrapyard
and I have to alter the setup I would consider that hacking I would agree with that I just think
people people tend to stereotype the word hacking way way too much you know what I mean
definitely I think that's part of the reason we're doing this today I only have you have a guy
is offended by the the confusion with cracking you know and that it's just generally ignored when
people over and just use hacking generically you know from what I had listened to in the past
people people bundled crackers into the into the white hat side of hacking you know what I mean
and hackers were kind of the in the dark basement you know nobody ever sees them yeah I mean
it's just it's been simplified into just one term or I don't know if the media or people who talk
about it they they always use the word hacker instead of distinguishing between the two and
we even not being specific and saying you know computer hacker and then the rest of us who maybe
aren't big computer programmers or don't think as ourselves as hackers maybe we stop thinking and
using the term in this general sense yeah well that's what I think I think it's it's the term has
been a mediafied so to say to to to have them if they want to scare people they say hacker you know
in here in the United States a big thing is now the government is is hiring all these well
basically the hackers but supposedly they're doing it for cybersecurity then it's okay but if
those same people were out in the wild or you know not associated with a government well then
they're bad hackers you know they're not they're not cyber security people this just came up
on some other podcast that I was listening to when I think it's I think it's all all the way the
media portrays it and people are just you know they believe anything they hear you know they
don't do any research on it yeah I definitely agree and I would even go further to say that um
I think the people who believe it without thinking aren't aren't hackers in a broader sense or
they don't have a strong urge or they don't have much of a hacker in them because I guess we all
have different degrees of hacking in us and you know we were sort of trying to agree I think we
all agreed that hacking generally is a desire to understand the world by taking it apart putting it
together looking inside it's like like that and if we haven't got that desire and interest because
it's kind of been knocked out of us by the media or education you know by sort of brainwashing
education a little bit that maybe then we are just you know we we suck up anything as you say
I think that is mentioned in the media we can be suggested to and and hinted at what we should do
and think well is that necessarily true I mean do you really need to be a hacker in every part of
your life in order to be a hacker I mean I really care about computers I care about software and
I put most of my time in trying to perfect that in any way whatever but politics for example I
don't really care I mean I like pirate party because they actually care about subjects which
endanger software or at least from my perspective but other than that I don't really care who's
the president of the United States or who's ruling the Dutch government okay I'll ask you I
think the wheel we all want to understand how relationships work between you know if we're looking
at friend or getting married or whatever and you know or if we're in a business and we want to
do well in it so I would even say you know hacking is understanding how to get along with people how
to be kind of engaged in society because we all kind of have an implicit interest in that so
I would apply hacking as far afield as that so I would disagree and say we all have varying
degrees of interest in hacking depending on how we want to succeed in something and if we don't
want to succeed with our own faults with our own applied hacking in any expertise whether it's
you know have family you know computer hacking how the car works which mechanic to take it to
you know because I haven't got time these are all sort of elements of of comprehending how the
world works and how we can make it work better for ourselves so I think we all have an innate
interest in hacking but just a varying degrees and those people who who don't have an interest they
can they can be suggested and you know not engaged in their actual life yeah okay but I mean
is it I think it's fair for people even for hackers who don't know about the term do not really care
about how cyber security works I mean you can be a great painter you can be a great musician
or put your put your hacking in any other field in electronics or whatever and be a great hacker but
still think that a hacker is somebody hired by cyber security or evil yeah but I think that's
what the media has done bitch you know because like the the other guy who joined just now so I
can't see your name that he was saying you know the media has and I agree with him the media has
kind of used it to demonize certain and maybe they're deliberately demonizing those people to
to put people off you know learning how computers work so they're deliberately not in a position
of any kind of power like like your friend Nido who downloads an app on his Android phone and
well he's happy he gets it for free but he doesn't realize the consequences you know and maybe
he thinks well I shouldn't do any hacking because these hackers of all bad people you know
yes I would agree with that but what I was trying to say is that aren't we more or less trying
to create this episode for the kind of people who have that idea of what a hacker is definitely
I think well the the only reason I've gone off in this tension because is because of Poké's post
which I liked which was basically you know I understood the term hacker in the broadest sense and
not just exclusive to computer hacker you know I know there are a lot of people who are interested
in computers and and that term a hacking but there seems to me a lot of the episodes are very wide
and rare it and I was understanding from Poké's post and other other episodes I've heard that
it's not necessarily limited to just computers you know I for one and interested in computers
very deeply but many many other subjects you know do you not lead back what I was saying you know
think about it this way that without hackers we wouldn't have inventions because those people
didn't think inside the box they thought outside the box and they hacked maybe they hacked a
device or they hacked you know something else and created a new a whole new you know piece of
piece of software or a piece of machinery or anything the plow we wouldn't have had the plow you
know where we would be with other people or fire starving and cold exactly and that's that's
what I think that I think that people should be educated more on what what actually you know hacking
means and not like you said demonized to the sense of because as soon as you hear the word hacker
you think computers and that to me is the most unfair definition of the word I definitely agree
I mean it's I know there might be some interested in a lot of interested in computers but there
are a lot of other benefits to get from hackers I mean I would even take it as far as using the
the psychological point of view you know understanding you know methods we can use in our you know
approaches technologies we can use of our minds or how we speak or you know not just something
you can buy but other kinds of technology you know a principle you know an organizational
concept how we can streamline our lives be more effective in more than just a tool that we might
make or buy or what have you you know there's technology and the understanding of technology
which I think hacking really is is much broader than where we're led to believe just by you know
what we can buy in the latest shops and I think we've taken advantage of a lot of the time
so the technology which is kind of talked about in the media usually leads to some kind of purchase
you know and probably for a reason I remember Steve Jobs biography being listed as a science book
which just drove me nuts on the subject of you know technology meaning buy something as opposed
to understanding something exactly exactly that takes us back you know what is a scientist and
the real scientist is the you know the small child who knows nothing but he's looking around him
making sense of the world and maybe without kind of instruction from a school he's actually come
into his own interpretation it might be different to to what I mean looking back at all of the
great US presidents you know they were all home scored or that they weren't in the mainstream
education system and yet made much better to a scientist or politicians or businessmen then
most of us who go through the the education system you know so they're something to consider
yeah back on the subject of mr. Jobs the year that he died was the same year that Dennis Ritchie
died and what really broke me up was that Dennis Ritchie was never to be heard of again in any
any any list scientist so died that year and Steve Jobs who I more or less consider a marketing
guy rather than a technology guy was greatest technician ever it's magic see and as there if you go
on that tangent look at the book that was row and look how he was just classified as a hacker
and yet Steve Jobs is classified as an innovator but I will go back and say you know
that the mainstream people who don't have much of a hacker in them and I don't just mean in the
the narrower computer field they will believe that you know but those of us who are interested
in understanding at least you know computer hacking or computer science or you know kind of
Linux and stuff like that and we would we would understand this difference and when we see the
the kind of ball bullshit in the mainstream we we know what it is you know because we have
this interest but there are a lot of sheep will to vary in degrees which best in so dissect in
the media and I believe that's that's one of the big problems with the term today agreed agreed
I mean we're now four people in this room here and we heard all of our definitions of what
we think is a hacker and neither one of us excluded anything or rather sorry nobody of us
said a hacker is a person who destroys websites or something in that sense and I think we can be
safe to conclude that at least one of the four people here in a hacker public radio mumble
would qualify as a hacker regardless of whatever this definition we come up with so I think it's
safe to say that hacking really goes beyond destroying websites and being evil or government
workers say I would say anybody who doesn't follow a written you know like a instruction manager
manual could be considered a hacker as soon as you vary from the from the step-by-step instructions
you are having something basically anyone who thinks a little bit for themselves yeah that's
my opinion you know the definition for hacking that I was using that I've been using is hacking
is the art of finding novel or unexpected uses for a system and that's as far as I go with it
anything that fits that category sounds like hacking to me that sounds quite broad I mean you could
interpret that in in really broad terms no that's by design at least yeah I mean as I should have
clarified I think that's good you know and part of why I got thinking about this is you know
hacker public radio is for anything that is of interest to hackers well what does that cover
obviously that covers a lot more than computer programming so I just got me thinking about how would
you describe what makes a good hacker public radio topic definitely and that is really why I like
there I don't mean to mean mentioned poke again but I liked his the content of his mail kind of
an all-inclusive and broadening of the not just computer hacker you know because for me hacker
is a thinking person somebody who tries to think about any subject they're interested in and I for
one I go through subjects quite quickly and follow my interests because you know I don't have a
mainstream job and I've been out of the system for a while and kind of started to I don't know if
any of you heard of de-schooling but kind of when you start to learn in a more free freeway
with no constraints from you know a curriculum that's been imposed upon you but once it starts
to happen and I think it does the most of us you know us at adults then we start just to follow
our passions jumping from one thing to another and kind of piecing it all together and I think that's
the key element of hacking really and self-knowledge you know knowledge of the world around us and
it's really fun to be involved in you know and you you can look at it in the sense that
when you're when you're hacking you could be taking knowledge that you learn somewhere else
and moving it into somewhere that it wasn't be exactly kind of the that's what we were saying
I think before you joined us the the cross disciplinary only gives whatever knowledge you've gained
in one discipline greater strength for validity I'm often interested when I when I can find one
thing that sort of holds in one discipline or one area of my life and then I see
blind me it's the same concept but maybe a different language because of different science or
discipline uses different words to describe the same kind of the same concept then I know well
it's probably more likely that that's valid there's you know a stronger truth in that you know
and it's it's great for confirming things yeah and exactly and that's all that somebody who may
have somebody who tried to get into a website that's all they're doing is take a knowledge that
they've learned on something else and applying it to but let's look at it this way a zero day
book you know I mean that's something that somebody found and applied it to a website or a
server and got a result whether whether it you know it's classified as good or bad it's just
that's what it is kind of like you can be a runner if you're just out getting exercise or if
you're fleeing from the police because you just problem to bank you're a runner either way right
and isn't that what they used to call isn't that what they used to call people running away from
the police runners all they still do there you go yeah language can be used in so many ways you know
to to affect our thoughts about a subject and that's what we're discussing that you know hacker
and cracker I used and the effect it has on us you know this is another type of hacking is to
understand language and the effect on us so that we're not you know we're not subject to the negative
use it to our own society's benefits and I just think that people need to be educated more
on hacking or being a hacker or what the you know what the definition of a hacker really is and
that way they can open their mind up and and not not consider it a stereotype for a bad person
and you know like getting back to the hacker public radio thing quick I remember a couple years
ago listening to hacker public radio about somebody who was doing a show about fixing their
well point exactly I like it in the broadest possible possible way you know yeah in general I
think it would be really helpful to see the word hacker and hacking coming up in a lot more
context more frequently I think part of the problem is the only time people hear the word hacker
is when somebody's talking about a crime that's happened somewhere and I don't know that it's
going to do much good to try to get everybody to say cracker instead of hacker but if we get people
to say hacker much more frequently in a good context I think that'll actually make a lot of
difference I will agree but I also think that we should use the word hacker not only in a computer
context you know we should say computer hacker to be specific that you know this is hacking related
to computers maybe I will do more stuff on food hacking or family raising hacking or something like
that you know to understand that you know hacking I think we've generally agreed is about learning
and exploring the world and there aren't enough hackers I think because not that many people
possibly because of the education system and the sort of the constructive curriculum system
which is only got not many people really are learning and following their passions you know
we're just fulfilling something in order to get a qualification to get a job you know to get things
and so we're the hacker in all of us he's kind of knocked out or not encouraged you know and
that's a little frustrating I find sometimes because then those non-hackers can be easily tricked
sometime or or fooled and it can affect their lives so I was going to say I think most of
humanity's problems can be explained by two facts number one people are lazy and number two
thinking has worked I was going to say I often say to my wife and the two things are people are
lazy and greedy and I don't mean to say that in negative way because I suffer equally as well
well there's a difference between greed and wanting to better yourself I believe I don't mean
in a really horrible way you know I would love to have more I've had some nice food my wife
just bought me some nice bacon and I think I'd be happy if I had some more but I have to know when
to stop you know exactly you know and that that leads you to the point of control see and there's
another part of the whole scenario that you know people who people who purposely try to break
something I would think as like a cracker you know and then like a safe cracker really I mean
they're trying to break in for even the satisfaction that I could and you know no one can hide
something from them I guess in the terms of you know there's something good something good in
the safe and I want to find out a secret or money or something or because they want to get
something for nothing you know still something there's a perfect scenario is if you say you didn't
have it your grandmother had a safe and you didn't know the combination and she passed away and
you wanted to get into that safe you would call a locksmith well now is he well he's a safe cracker
but in a good sense I mean this is a moral question because it depends maybe the grandmother never
wanted anyone to go in there not even after a death otherwise maybe she would have secured
you know someone else to know the access code or whatever it was you know yes where do you draw
the line exactly people seem to have a tendency nowadays to look at other people as bad
instead of looking other people as good first yeah I can agree with that it's I don't know if it's
if it's easier to sell you know some media if it's generally you know all bad news and
that's infected us you know that we we all start to read bad stuff so we start to see everywhere
around us you know kind of like the secret that whatever we focus our minds on tends to happen
around us or or if we are really kind of bad people I don't think we are well I think they're
trying to sell news as always being bad you know you very rarely see a good news report I think
that has to do with the fact that bad news makes more money than good news cares more attention
and you need people to look and want by the paper yeah which I mean this is a whole thing I have
wrong in my mind with most of the media you know it's all based upon you know not getting the
information across but it's been turned into a business so it's for someone's profit and then
as soon as that happens you know you've got to get eyes attention in order to to make that
business work better and better and better you know yeah but you see more depression in the world
now than you ever have and I think if there was more good news published I think people would
start to lean a little more towards being happy with what they had yeah I definitely agree there's
this true I mean that's the good possibilities of the free media you know it's very inexpensive and
easy to broadcast nowadays and thanks to a great hacky public radio or doing your own podcasts
or whatever that people really can talk about good stuff you know and I for one don't watch any
any TV or anything like that just listen to stuff I'm interested in you know and I guess more
more people are doing that which is wonderful yeah go ahead no no go ahead I guess it's
true I mean I can fill my entire evening for years with just watching the field streams from conferences
and listening to things like hacky public radio and learning more about the things I care about and
I don't need to work whatever is on mainstream television and get yet advertising with it
yeah so it's a whole different view on whatever is happening rather than all the negative news
and buy this product because it will make you happy that's funny that's funny I mentioned that
because I have in the last year been one of the persons that cut the cord you know I don't
I don't have cable TV anymore I don't have satellite TV I just have internet and I purchased one
of those Roku's and you know I have Netflix type and movies and I for one find that I can watch
as much content in less time because of the not having all the commercials and if I sit down
at a TV that has the commercials also I'm also I'm looking at it's like my god every five minutes
there's a commercial this is pathetic but without that how would you know which beer you have to
drink it in cool I go down to the store and ask those guys at the liquor store what beer is good
cheater or I'd listen to an episode of pod burrs or something yeah I think we're going a bit of
the subject however if we if you don't mind I'd like to go back a bit dude man you were talking
about maybe we should specify it more clearer as computer hackers and food hackers and stuff like
or did I mistake I mean I'm not saying we have to I'm just saying you know
basically I mean basically however anything is defined it's always going to be interpreted or
misinterpreted by other people you know and often just where you know if we want to have things
clarified we just have to you know comprehend or notice when someone is misunderstanding what we say
you know so it's a it's a very individual and personal thing so I'm not prescribing and I never
think we should you know we should change a term like that and we should all speak like this
part of the beauty of language is the very flexibility of the definitions and interpretations of the
word and that's partly why this this podcast probably could be very interesting and probably never
ending you know I personally think that like the media should be responsible for telling people
why this person is a hack and what kind of hacker and whether or not they're good or bad I think
that should be one of the one of the you know qualifications of of writing the story I think
they should just they should definitely give more information to make you know it's kind of
vandal you judgements I'm sure should be left to the individual person listening to the
the the information you know because you know I'm going to decide whether breaking into a bank
to to steal you know salary information from top top bankers is criminal or is not criminal
you know whether it's in the public interest or not for example yeah I just think that too many
people hear the word hacker and automatically think bad I would guess it's it's those people
who think that generally they don't have much hacker in them they're not really quite awake or
their eyes are just part of closed and you know through stresses of life and a necessity to earn
money doing you know working too hard for too little which I'm understanding the pressures are
only getting worse at the moment the the economy and what have you and that that gives us less and
less time to even think in our day-to-day life let alone even you know think more learn more and
see what's going on so it's it's a it's a difficult position right but it's going to take the hackers
of the world to correct it too yeah sure but you could you can only lead a horse to water you can't
make a horse drink you know it's a frustration I've had over a long time you might there might be
something really obvious you know and you could see you know your dog doing something stupid or
you know your family or friend you know but you can only you can only say people have to come
around to it themselves and we're talking about the mass of people if that's what we think you
know if they if we think oh you should all understand computers better well we we can only suggest
to them and give them nice solutions we can't force them I often try to force my wife to learn
how to use Linux and she's getting better but she doesn't really have the interest she just wants
to do something you know right but when it breaks who does she calls she calls the hacker and
sometimes I deliberately make her suffer you know all deer who internet doesn't work for a few
days that's a shame isn't it you know so at least you appreciate a little bit more that I've
got it working but it doesn't always work exactly exactly it's a difficult difficult call I think but
it's very interesting well I think doing doing a talk like this here will hopefully make people
think more about it yeah that that's why I wanted and I that's why again I've mentioned
Poke you know he's just I don't know who he's really I've spoken to him a few times but I like
the tone of his his email just making the whole thing very inclusive to to encourage more broader
selection of hosts you know people don't need to have fear that they're not up to some elite level
of hacker because I think the term hacker has developed in the media this eliteness which I think
is unnecessary because because I consider my two-year-old daughter hacker and sometimes far
far superior than me because that her determination to work so on couch you know so if if we want
hacker public radio or or any kind of independent thinking and educational system to prosper that's
we need to encourage and empower as many people as possible so I'm all for keeping it nice and broad
yeah actually think getting in the habit of specifying a computer hacker food hacker biology
hacker whatever would actually help with that because people start thinking oh you mean it's not
just computers you can be a hacker doing anything then you get more people thinking about it
yeah that's a good point sorry Nida I'm not really sure I mean you can just call somebody who
hacks a car a hacker and they will still hear the word hacker so I don't really know whether or not
I need to call him a car hacker do you understand oh yeah I think I understand what you say I don't
mean like compulsively like like you would say you know news slash Linux every time you say Linux
anything like that just in any context where it's not clear necessarily if you're just talking
about someone who is a hacker it I think it would help people who aren't hackers to understand
if they if you mention oh yes he's he's an automobile hacker or he's a you know a beer hacker
or whatever it helps that it's something different that that should sit up in their mind and make
them notice oh you mean it's not just computer programmers you steal credit card numbers
if you're already talking about someone working on a car and you call him a hacker obviously that's
it's a little easier you don't have to specify that it's a car hacker no no yeah I think I
understand what you mean I guess in a sense you know computer hackers if if they're a predominant
on on hacker public radio and I'm not sure that's true I think it's quite a poor
appreciation of computers and other stuff but kind of the people who possess or identify
most with the term hacker we we kind of need to give it up a little bit by by using it in
border context when we speak and getting out they like like you like we've spoken about you know
using hacker in front of more more words and I think that would take the publicity away from
the people that are trying to do malicious hacking and you know when you take when you take the
focus off somebody they're not as apt to do things because they're not going to get attention
it's just like a little kid a little kid will will do bad things just to get attention and if
you're not paying attention to them eventually they'll stop doing it yeah well like sometimes
you know we never want to all be paying you know tired with the same brush or you know have the same
descriptive term which which we don't like so you know we we don't want the word hacker to be redefined
into a negative way and then applied to to everything we do you know because it's just a way
of discriminated against a person who who wants to think for himself and understand the world
I think right now in the world we need the opposite we need people to to think you know I've
been told this but is that really true is that really to the benefit of my family you know myself
am I going to be richer and happier and healthier you know listen to these things I'm just told or
am I better off to to think it through a little bit myself
well I guess you nailed it everyone wanted quiet I can't be can't be
well I don't know how many more ways you could say it I pretty well sums it up I don't know where
you guys were going with the whole situation but we were then so I'm gonna say I have to listen
back because I'm not sure what I said myself now but good go ahead Nida we weren't really sure either
we're just hacking along and hoping we create a nice episode well certainly when you can get
when you can get opinions from many different people I guess you could call it a poll I mean
that's what polls are all about right they take a survey and it could help change things I'm sorry I
go ahead no you go ahead because I didn't really understand okay I was gonna say that it's it's
it can be problematic when you take a poll though I know what you mean but if you take a poll often
the the question or the the answer you're expecting can be kind of led or it can be kind of
limiting you know and then the way you collated I think this whole kind of discussion and basically
people talking more about stuff you know should be encouraged and like a if a lot of us switch off
the mainstream media we we start to enjoy learning and chatting with other people then we're sure
to find the solutions eventually you know and have a bit of fun along the way which is pretty cool
yeah conversation is lacking in this whole world anymore I think it's gonna come back you know
he's got a it's gonna be fashionable again well I certainly hope so it's free after all you know
they can't charge us for that not so loud they'll hear you I think we're pretty much
we pretty much have an idea of what a hacker is right now or at least we have about an hour of
discussion about what it should be could be or be and maybe we should think of the try try a
bit to define what is hacking and maybe what is a hack to talk about to so you can put it in practice
you know what I mean well I threw my definition out earlier I don't know if anybody agrees or
objects or think something needs to be added or taken away from it could you repeat the definition
maybe we could try to come up with an example which fits your definition but we think should not
be considered a hacker I think that's a nice exercise okay yeah the definition I was using is
that hacking is the art of finding novel or unexpected uses for a system I really like that I
would only add I think to be a hacker is to be alive and to hack is to live and the art of
hacking is the art of of trying to live better and better every single day yeah I absolutely would
go to that I would say that the art of hacking is to better your life not to the detriment of anybody
else you know which is great now from a purely purely semantic point of view I don't know if I
necessarily limit to that I think you can do criminal hacking or malicious hacking I think the
point is more that that it's hacking is not necessarily or even normally criminal yeah I agree
with you maybe I shouldn't have added that I was just being kind of the the veil of a dreamy new
coming down of my eyes you know I hate it the soft music playing in the background I'm not
really sure if I can agree with your definition of hacking is living I mean I agree it's the most
inclusive one we can consider but I'm not really sure if somebody who gets born goes to school
follows every single step expectantly as expected it does exactly a six points average and gets
a job and does his work and nothing else goes home watches TV buys the product the advertisement
sells them and then dies I don't think that person ever has done any hacking despite him having lived
maybe eight years I think we'd have to get into what is the meaning of of live life you know and of
course you know if we just breathe and walk is that living or do we need to breathe and and live
low fully as a human you know I don't mean to get too philosophical or what have you but
but I would I would suggest that we need to live fully as a human and not necessarily as a robot you
know to really experience life you know is a robot I know a robot isn't alive it's not
saintient or whatever but is a robot who just is following a program is that really living you know
and if if us humans are just following a program or instructions or something we've learned
are we really living well I would agree that living a full life would be a better life but I
wouldn't dismiss a bad life as not being alive it would be a bad life but you still be living do
you know what I mean I wasn't really meaning good or bad because you can live and think and be
aware of everything can make your own decisions it might bad you know but you are doing it consciously
whereas not to do it consciously is what I'm saying isn't really alive because you're kind of
you're your program you're following somebody else's idea of what you should do you know and
and that's the the distinction I was just making or trying to in a clumsy way so basically
having is something that's fundamentally intentional it's something you you you do on purpose I think
so and it requires some fault and you need you know feedback loops like a good scientist you need
to you know study calls and affect and maybe this do the same thing a few times to see what would
happen and then experiment a little bit you know like any good child or or adult who's not just
following instructions basically I think you just reminded me of an xkcd screen comic about a
normal person versus a scientist I know exactly what you're talking about I love it I've linked
it in the chat and I definitely think we need to put it in the show notes because in this particular
instance it could just as well have said hacker instead of scientist I would actually argue that
you can't really be a really good scientist without having some hacker nature in you yep I would
agree with that and I don't want to bag on on scientists but I think the the financial limitations
and the funding requirements do knock the the hacker out of us just like our dependency on kind
of a job we don't enjoy and ever expensive you know ever more higher costs in living kind of knocks
the the hacker out of the normal person as well because the thing basically well that goes back
to the fact that if you're thinking then you're thinking about changing something to make it
for the better or for the worse so you still hacking yeah that's right I wonder how much it I mean
having a good job in which you can actually do your hacking I think that's a great thing to have
but I mean even if you're just some clerk at the hotel or if you're just somebody who was flipping
burgers or cleaning houses I mean at the same time you can still be thinking and theorizing and
hacking ideas pretty much but to agree but I mean you get a job or you work a job like a lot of people
or or more mundane you know repetitive robotic like and you're exhausted when you get home perhaps
you you can't afford or you haven't got good food and you're stressed and you know a lot of
relationships break up over arguing about money and you have all those kinds of stresses
it doesn't really leave you in much of a frame of mind to to think constructively or work
shit out you know I'm not wanting to be negative just realistic so I think it does play a part you
know if anybody actually look up the definition of a hacker in a dictionary would the jargon
file contested dictionary I don't know she I'm just watching on a big screen in my room my my
sons commenting there's some grizzly bears and their little cups are a perfect hackers and
scientists they're crawling up these these branches very narrow branch and the bear is very big
until he gets to the top and it snaps and he falls off you know that turns out hacking isn't
even limited to humans exactly and now here is Marion Webster's definition of hacker is one that
hacks a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity a tennis hacker an
expert at programming and solving problems with a computer a person who is illegally gains access
to and sometimes tampers with information in a computer system see so that they're they're
saying hacker specifically to a computer in two of the definitions how recent are those you
know it's pretty new phenomenon I wonder if the you know it's it's not somehow been subverted you
know by by something I don't mean to be all conspiracy theory I don't think there's anything like
that but I mean sometimes in the in a particular industry we we develop use of a particular language
in a way and kind of we all support that and maybe maybe we shouldn't necessarily I'm pretty
surprised about this definition actually because well arguably we have all decided that a hacker
is a hacker according to definition number one in this dictionary namely one that hacks however
definition number two strikes me as particularly weird because as you said a person who is inexperienced
or unskilled at the particular activity I would almost argue it's the exact opposite I would
disagree you know I really would because you know you're an expert already if you know and if
we're agreeing the hack in is to learn something to explore and you don't know what's going on
I mean even a computer hacker or computer programmer he might be already skilled but the
particular thing he's looking to now or kind of catches his attention he every day if he's
going to learn something new he he has to be unskilled in some task that doesn't you know diminish
the fact that he is skilled in other border areas but you know he has to you know run the man
command to find what does that mean he's got a you know got how to fix that from my got a search
on the internet you know and if if that wasn't there I think he's his life would be very boring
as a hacker you know in the computer sense so I disagree with you actually I think that particular
definition is an over one that's not really related except I heard people describe like a really
bad lazy journalist as a hack and I think that the derivation of that particular definition is
different from the computer hacker definition I'm sorry I think that well he is a hack and a
hack is not the hacker per se or I think that are two different words with two different definitions
but I'm thinking what dude man just say I think it it really has a bit of a zen like quality to it
I really begin to appreciate the meaning just explained it I will have to listen again to my words
and understand it better myself as well then I believe what you're saying I'm just saying that I
don't think that's what the dictionary is meaning when they say that no but I think if we I think
also need to look at at our past I mean we are here we define ourselves hackers in the sense
that we're now on hacker public radio but that comes from the binary revolution that comes from
something else something else something else I think at the beginning of what ultimately became
what we think of as hackers I think that fair that that person could very well have taken that
definition that second definition of the what Mary Webster dictionary and applied what dude man just said
I have to I have to say that here here is the most interesting part about this whole thing
they have examples of hacker and the first example is my friends and I have been playing golf
for years but we're still we're still just a bunch of hackers and then underneath that it says
the company's security experts spend days trying to figure out how a hacker could have gotten
past the firewall and then it tells you the first known use of hacker it's from the 14th century
but all of those things having common you know whether the person has gained the skill yet or not
you know whether he's good at learning all of them contain the fact that somebody is learning and
struggling to achieve something can't they you know to different degrees those golfers maybe they
just you know having a good chat and they don't really try hard you know and they see do it you know
but what what what kind of dedication you apply to it you know will determine your your overall
the speeder which you progress from from somebody who's an expert in that field and then you're no
longer a hacker of that you know you but you will then deepen your exploration into that science
and you probably will still be called a hacker because you're still you know anybody who's stop
learning is basically ready for for death you know they're they no longer green they're actually
rotten you know like like an apple and ideally we all want to stay green and fresh and learning
all of our life but that that means we've got to finish learning one aspect but we'll move on to
the next you know it's an it's a never-ending exploration of interest and this team also comes back
within the within I've seen it before in some pseudos and like thing of something which is called
the agent software masters and there's this Zen like column which says you will never become a
great programmer until you acknowledge that you will always be a terrible programmer I think that
pretty much describes what the second definition how we how you describe that it isn't that the same
as you know the more you know the more you know you don't know anything you know because you realize
this is so much to know and you're learning more and more and that kind of thing yeah it's pretty
much to say my D see and they also classify as a synonym a cracker or a cyberpunk and that that's
their that's right in their their words here I think part of the problem is the
the excuse me that the dictionary is part of the mainstream media in the context of what we're
talking about here it just refers published by the mainstream media and you know the mainstream
media has a tremendous amount of power for implanting and and solidified you know solidifying
meanings to words we all own but being kind of subverted to somebody else's benefit sometimes
yeah that's exactly my feeling too I think that it has been it has been pushed on people in such a
bad way that people don't really understand what the true meaning is people people often you know
they don't even think you know and I'm not saying they don't think at all but you know and that's
why I would go back to kind of just exaggerate the point that you know we need kind of a space in
life to even you know have that calmness in our head to see things more clearly or to kind of
start thinking for ourselves if any of you just want to see this in action been proved out many times
just look for you know kind of home education of children or unschooling or de-schooling just
in children you know it takes a while to stop kind of interfering with what people or children
specifically learn for them for all of us to regain the interest to actually ask questions
and then find the answers you know yeah and the and the generation that we have today and what's
it was funny because I was talking to somebody last night about this I can remember when I was in
school and if you had a report to do you had to go to the library you had to find the material
you had to either get the the librarian to copy that page for you at two cents a piece and then
you in turn had to take your notebook and write down you know excerpts from the book that you
couldn't take out of the library we're now at these you know this kind of information is fingertips
often it's been kind of regurgitated so many times that there's even and like if you're doing
the kind of book reviews or anything like that synopsis is of all the books in the in curriculums
throughout the world you know already already written and you get excerpts from it and kind of
simplified you know yeah and the nice part about internet is there is not only people who
who are listening to mainstream but there's also people that are listening other other
sides of stories like what's that site fact check is a perfect one don't know what it's like in the
US but definitely when I grew up you know I think if I had some of the opinions I have now
it wouldn't be considered a past grade and and you know what I have to actually have the same
opinions or come to the same conclusions that my my teachers or lecturers would assume you know
maybe it's not quite like that in the US but maybe there's slight tendencies well that goes back
to curriculum I mean if you're not if you don't follow the curriculum that's being taught to you
you're considered an outcast exactly you know there shouldn't be I mean the curriculum of a
school should be as simple as you know follow your interests and passion learn and equip yourself
for life you know and that is varied and different to for every person involved and it doesn't
need to be you know written by a politician with with their business and you know kind of state
in mind I want to interject right now with the notion that I think we would consider teachers who
actually just read upon how much whatever is being brought up confirms with whatever is in the
answering book or in her in her own I think we all would agree that that would be a bad teacher
while that's in the way we are now describing the education it would be a great teacher or am I
wrong again it is subjective because you know I'm like what is good and bad because to have a bad
experience of a teacher or being treated like this it might drive some people to to the realization
that it doesn't matter if there's somebody else great in you but rather what what do you think of
your own what what do you think of yourself you know so I know you're partly right we can make
this good and bad judgment but again that's complicated but maybe I'm kind of distracting the
soul a bit so I apologize I think the whole notion of whether it's a good or a bad teacher
as I always thought that if a teacher no matter what they taught you could keep an your interest
in a class whether it was something that was from 500 years ago or something that was from
yesterday if they could keep it interesting they were a good teacher yeah I like that and
I mean the whole thing about learning is to follow your passion and to be interested and you know
we do homeschooling with our kids and we don't do much of it you know but I know first hand
with myself and my children if if they are passionate about something you don't have to do anything
you don't have to persuade them to learn that they they follow their own goals and dreams and
aspirations and it's it's phenomenal how quickly they learn but well no effort on my part and
to be honest they don't even feel like they're working hard either so I think the role of a teacher
is really just to facilitate and inspire perhaps and and lead the way if there's some real
distraction but just to encourage and facilitate you know yeah you know you want to say something
well I'm actually I'm thinking we're diverting from the matter at hand again since we're now
more or less trying to define what is a teacher yeah I have to apologize for that sorry but I'm
gonna play devil's advocate for a moment because we now have a definition in a dictionary which
has well the definitions we discussed earlier and who are we to say that we are hackers since we
don't really are the persons who are in that definition aren't you I mean this is a problem I
have with the dictionary definitions I mean they're good as a guideline but who's to define what a
teacher is surely it's every single individual who uses the word we want to make sure that it
defines and complies with what we want a teacher to be or what we want those roles in society to
be you know and if we don't think that they lead to people who can think for themselves then
maybe we need to check well what was the the real historic meaning of a teacher and if you go back
to you know kind of I don't know they've forgotten the names you know Hippocrates or the Socrates
or some of these people you know how would they be in taught I don't think there was one man you
know a whole whole school of people who had been given a curriculum from from the state telling
them how and what to teach children but they were you know thinking and there were some
scientists you know of that day surely and now you ask me how am I a hacker well I'm a
hacker according to the third definition in the sense that I'm a super engineer from the university
so I have that right to call myself a hacker still being a devil's advocate here but I mean then
what's what what is the history which we subscribe to which makes you call yourself a hacker
see and that's where I would say that I am a person who falls right into category two which is a
person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity but it doesn't say that I'm
a person who will try that it just says that I'm inexperienced and that's exactly how they got
the fact that these people are hackers and and relating them to being bad because yes they are
inexperienced at what they're doing and that's what makes them break things sometimes I think
that there's you know the media has made a decision either because the media likes to report on
negative stuff or you know somebody's got a policy to demonize people who are kind of finding
out stuff or looking into stuff or have that kind of ability because you know information
is power and the word is used in many times to demonize and to push people down you know
but it's up to all of us individually we can look at a at a dicoot dictionary definition
but it's up to all of us if we want to define it and use it and and to know what it means to us
individually you know I don't think we need to I mean if someone wants to limit themselves to
the dictionary definition then they're not well and good but he can't say that another man can't
be afraid of the dictionary you know see and I'll have to go to back if you watch and this is
going to be a perfect example if you watch the media you're going to hear more of the term
cyber warrior than you will hacker because the term they want people to hear and associate with
somebody who is trying to prevent somebody that attacking a computer yeah well a cyber warrior
is clearly a different thing from a hacker I mean the person we described earlier who fixes his
car I mean he's a hacker we said but I'm not seeing him as a cyber warrior unless he has some
secret life where he actually does hack the internet but let's assume for this example that he
doesn't exactly my point and but you're also going to hear cyber warriors are there to prevent
hackers I think we're just seeing in the media you know because it's it's a it's a game of power
and influence and for different agendas you know we're just seeing them twisting and turning
and trying to redefine in their interests certain phrases but we mustn't forget that
he's up to us individually if we speak to each other or if we just watch the media to to use and
to understand and use our own definitions you know and you know I think this talk about the media
and definitions in dictionaries is limiting many aspects you know if we're real hackers because
you know real hackers want to think about stuff themselves and and keep learning that I think it's
it's probably the job of us as you as you're saying to help educate other people in in what you
know what the the basics of a hacker is and you know then the other person can decide where they
fall in the term you know in the years of the hackers yeah basically basically talking more you
know like like if we switch off that with a hypnotistic box if we have in the corner sometimes
you know they now say them in flat screens but they can hypnotize us when we get more time and
we switch those off then there's more chance to talk with fellow humans on there and have these
discussions exactly and that's the I think that's one of the big ways that people will again go
on back to education will will be educated and be able to educate themselves more basically I
think the definition needs to be stretched through usage until the dictionary gets updated
yeah I like that or maybe we can you know look vaguely at a dictionary and think for ourselves and
maybe stop using dictionaries you know I don't know the you know if we look at the history of books
and who first used them and you know that the use of language you know the written form and
the mainstream didn't have a use for for reading and writing but we've gradually been educated so
we can you know participate in in their society according to their rules and I wonder
the whose advantage I don't have I'm not saying too vague or too conspiratorial but you know what
I mean is none of I don't think any of us speak in consider ourselves to be you know like in
upper echelons or middle echelons of society where historically we would have you know had a
classic education and learn to read and write and and all those around us but below us wouldn't have
you know I think we're all missed I will guess you know not meaning that in a derogatory way but
but what are sometimes actually being able to read and write can be limiting you know okay but
wouldn't a hacker be somebody who has actually done some hacking I mean don't you require
some level of experience in the field of hacking in before you can call yourself a hacker and
is that not something that should be part of the definition are you meaning just specifically
computer hacking here or because if hacking is defined as I have I feel hacking is the the
activity of learning something he's trying to understand something then the whole point is you
don't have to know anything I mean the prerequisite to to learn in something he's not knowing
well that implies that once you learn you're not a hacker anymore no no exactly you are you you
if you continue to learn and you stay alive then you're a hacker all your life you know the moment
we stop learning and are uninterested in life I would I would argue is the the point where we
gradually become you know uninterested unactive unengaged kind of boring to be around almost you
know because nothing getting body says has any interest you know we're happy just to follow
somebody else's program for our life without question so I would say that I think that the
definition is really going to be decided in the in the situation you're speaking of you know
what I mean if you're talking about technology and computers then there's going to be this
definition of a hacker if you're talking about golf that there's this definition of hacker though
it's I don't believe that they could put one solid definition on it then but that's part of the
problem because you know if we just want to follow a you know defined in addiction we definition
or understanding of anything then we are in a sense kind of we we stop hacking the term hacking
we stop comprehending and looking to see all the depths and angles that it might have you know
we're in a in a sense said well that's it that's that's what it'll be like forever but if we
want to continue learning anything we've got to continue to be open to you know adaption and
change and reassess him you know as children I don't I can't think of an example but as children
say you know work maybe had one meaning but as adults the work maybe has a different connotation
as as old people has another connotation entirely you know so the how we understand the world
changes as we progress through it and if it if it stopped and we never reconsidered anything then
we kind of become static and and and not moving I think language indeed involves and I don't
think that even requires the people to evolve with it but I think art has a has a point that
words have different meanings within different contexts and the word hacker I mean the dictionary
has four definitions the jargon file which we need to put in the in the show notes I believe it
even has eight definitions and I think the word hacker we are trying to describe now is the word
hacker as in hacker public radio so are we getting back around to the beginning of the circle and
some of us are trying to limit just because our interest is maybe limited or prioritized towards
computing so we we see hacker public radio as primarily Linux or technology you know modern
technology related but some of the rest of us see it broader you know as not just limited by
technology or Linux and because I mean at the end of the day it's up to the individual what
their interpretation is or the degree of breadth you know actually I think we're going in the
other direction that that are in the context of hacker public radio a hacker meaning the audience
for hacker public radio is not just computer hackers and we do have a lot of interesting episodes
that have nothing to do with computers so I think that's part of what we're trying to get across here
exactly that that was why I was emphasizing it because I agree with you yeah so we're also
completely free to make take our definitions as we have them and not worry about other hackers
whether what they think about the definition I think that's the way to sum it up as far as it being
a personal preference on the way you interpret it and no no one else excludes another person
from being right we can all be right while talking about sign completely different you know a
father has a different opinion about the world than his his son but they both right they're just
you know you look in one's higher and taller than the other you know so they they
you know they they have a different seat in the past they view the car differently depending
where they seat but they're both right you know and that's what I believe hacker public radio
is is doing for the public is is reinforcing the fact that it's just not
computers it's it's life in general I love that that's really great because I I think he's been
mentioned in the main list you know there I'm sure there were so many people with maybe sort of
insignificant what they think might be insignificant skills or experiences but when you when you
look in a broader context and and understand many little things it can be so interesting you know
and we can learn and and share experiences it's it's a great thing I quit my position as
devil's advocate I can't really think of anything to disrupt this uh what we're trying
so that this this this was gonna be a match wasn't it you know a match of uh of disagreement
and everything and uh it just hasn't gone that way it's a terrible shame well maybe I'm just a
terrible advocate anybody else wants to give it a try I guess the only question I have left
is if somebody who has never heard of hacker public radio hears about it how do we get them to
realize that they may be a hacker and not knowing well I think Ken felon has quite the the the
link for it you use the same algorithms used for creating the other page uh to determine whether
or not your episode would be interesting for hacker public radio um the link in question is
hacker public org slash m dash i dash a dash hacker dot html so if you look on there then you can
see whether or not you would be a hacker is is it useful at all or is it been done you know to
to create categories for the um for the podcasts you know like um and in that sense it would be very
clear you know garden in you know nutrition child raising and make it so broad and I don't mean to
put off you know computer related people because I'm sure they're already you know welling to
they're already well identified with the term hacker but I don't know if that would help at all
what do you think well doesn't he have that in the like the mini shows where you do episodes
isn't that more what that's about well it kind of you can get that idea if you indeed if you look
at the link in the in depth series I mean there's things like a little bit of fight and with
13 episodes which is computer related but there's also like um let's see um had to make the perfect
egg urban camping exactly brings up another kind of uh I don't know if it's a pet peeve of mine
or an interest but you know what's the difference between geek and uh and hacker because I personally
don't consider myself to be a geek but um but but a hacker a life hacker you know but um what do you
guys think of that oh maybe that's another subject for a gift I tend to assume a geek is someone
who is very knowledgeable in one specific area so you can be a Star Trek geek or you can be a
uh Pokemon geek or you can you can be a computer geek but uh it's not necessarily the same as hacker
which is more more of an applied sort of thing it more in how geek more implies kind of he has a
knowledge about a subject area but not necessarily uh not to not to um to criticize it but not
necessarily thinking deeply about it but to know a lot about an area like like you suggest like
to be a geek or Pokemon or some cartoon or some film genre or something like that it's
more to know a lot about it and to follow it and it doesn't necessarily imply kind of a study
and working stuff out in our mind you know I've looked up the Miriam Webster definition for geek
I mean it worked for hacker just a moment ago but uh it has one the carnival performer often built
as a wildman who actually includes biting the heads of a life chicken or snake
wow a person often of intellectual uh sorry a person often of an intellectual bent
who is disliked and three and and huge enthusiast or expert especially in a technology
technological field or activity computer geek I mean when I was younger the I mean probably even
now the the term geek is used in a derogatory sense you know and uh I think it's become more
I don't know about fashionable but more uh kind of mainstream and uh and like I want to be a geek
I don't know if it's a media or again you know trying to sell geekness to us Mr. Bayer stuff
you know and popularize in that terms or how it's really working but it's definitely gone for
an evolution from derogatory to sign this popular and I think the media has decided that they
can't portray it as a bad or or uh odd person anymore because now you hear of people want to be a
geek and how do I become a geek and my my classification would be the fact that anybody who is
who is very uh knowledgeable and and very intense at what they want to learn about a subject uh
above the the mainstream knowledge of a subject I don't want to show I really agree you know because
I I don't well maybe just I don't want to identify it would be in a geek because for me it still
has negative connotations you know of a of a spotty kind of um un sociable person in a dark room
you know who who forgets how to speak you know and I don't mean to make you sound terrible and
be horrible 21 but you know uh I don't want to identify personally with the old image I have you
know right and that's where that's where people uh getting out in public and uh professing themselves
as geeks and and the word in the mainstream much more makes people at ease with the fact that
you know okay well he's a geek well Steve Jobs there's a big geek Bill Gates there's a big geek
you wouldn't say you wouldn't see people talking bad about him but but isn't there maybe the problem
to begin with is that people have identified with a word which was never them in the beginning you know
and then you know as they grow older and they get more confident and you know they probably
earn a lot more money than they are who's just a mechanic you know the who wasn't a geek when
he was in college now they have you know by and power and they can go out like like like Bill Gates
or these other people they were serious geeks this respected and they get some money and some
power good job but they can go out and uh still proclaim to be a geek but you know uh kind of
getting back at the the football jockies you know yeah but I also think a geek is smarter than that too
where they're they're the type of person that says you know what let all these let all these big
mouth people go out and and and fight with each other and I'm going to sit back and I'm going to
buy companies and I'm just going to I'm going to live an enjoyable life and not have to worry about
you know what people think no I don't think a geek necessarily needs to be a good person I think
you can be a geek and still use your power and your money which you got through your job in order
to torment the those jockies who tormented you years ago I don't think that would be a good person
but I still think it would be a geek a mad scientist would be a geek yeah but it's also a hacker
I think the problem is that it can make a lot of good shows the problem is we're trying to use words
you know generic words and which have like limited definitions and confusing ones to describe a
human and the beauty of a human if he's alive is that he continues changing and adapting throughout
his life you know and sometimes actually applying a term and then you know fulfilling that term
prevents us even from continuing to grow and expand you know so and then you know it kind of forces
the the redefinition of the word maybe in some cases like the geek maybe has has from the
60s or whenever it came into fashion he has kind of the rich guy because he worked hard on
he knew technology so he's able to redefine the word but maybe the problem is we we identify
and allow ourselves to be pitching hold yeah and that's the that's the sad part about it is
but on a good note the more you talk about it the less it becomes a stereotype so to say
and that's all it evolves from stereotypes of what what the mass media thinks of
that person just because of the term or the title that was given to them yeah and you know
often these titles maybe they're given to us in schools or we fit a particular clique or group you
know and it kind of limits us in in how we can learn and then we kind of start to identify with it
and you know it's if there wasn't that the I sound like a someone who is bullied you know but if
there's not name calling and this kind of unnecessaryness in schools or in in society generally
people would be free to adapt and change and to to be more flexible perhaps if that makes sense to
you guys it's great these long silences can be edited out so no one knows that no one replied
yeah right yeah the question is only how much of the six hours we recorded already re actually turn
out to be on the result if I knew you were going to edit anything I said I wouldn't even speak
neither you're terrible just how to silences I know I know I know I might maybe I can I've really
got to go anyway soon so I've avoided doing some jobs I should do but it's been really fun
talking to you guys about I hope he's been interesting and I haven't diverted things too much well
I think you had some greetings to say I am glad you you were here and we'll see if you can I
wear a good luck it is purely accidental that I was here I was just testing it out so I'm pleased
to have had a chance to chat with you guys it's interesting subject fun having the conversation
yes and I hacked my way into it too didn't I great example yeah I mean our hacker public radio
geeks now oh guys are we knowledgeable about hacker public radio I think I can only call myself a
hacker not a geek then I can say that I'm an enthusiast how's that I can embrace that label I like
that as well okay guys I'm gonna have to go so I'm sorry to cut out if you're gonna continue but
nice chatting view you too dude man take care have a nice evening buy up in case oh take care
okay he's done you talk about him now sure you join the channel are you do you want to participate
in the discussion of what is a hacker or are you just gonna listen he's just listen come on man
everybody's doing it yeah I'm gonna have to step away for a few minutes I'll be back in a few minutes
and a few minutes you can just give us your definition of a hacker and then we can
make say bad things about it while you're new to the guy and if you want you think there are still
some things we have to discuss about subject yeah I'm not really sure I don't think anybody disagrees
enough for us to really get an argument going most of the discussion was just little details
in the language rather than any real disagreement over what it means which I suppose that's a good
thing because that means we got a sort of cohesive group here yeah the only problem is that it
makes it a bit hard to check whether or not we touched every part of the subject matter maybe
one thing we really need to touch on regarding this subject is whether or not somebody should be
considered a hacker because of the definitions we gave or whether somebody should consider himself
a hacker before we should call him a hacker you're basically wondering if you can be a hacker
or not think you're a hacker and I want to go even further can you be a hacker and disagree
with the fact that you're a hacker or this rather disagree with the concept of being a
hacker or the concept that you are a hacker it's hard to describe exactly I think I know what
you're getting at but since the way I define it is a hacker is someone who is hacking so if you're
hacking I would say that person is a hacker even if they disagree with being a hacker or don't want
to be a hacker if you're hacking then you're a hacker and Billy sets the way I would look at it
yeah but that also gets a bit blurry in the definition of I mean we pretty much set a hacker is
somebody who is hacking but one is is a person only a hacker at the moment he is actually doing a
hack or if he's done and he's chilling out with his friends having a beer and just talking
small stuff rather than discussing some great project of somebody is he then still a hacker
at that moment regardless of whether or not he continues to work on his subject tomorrow oh I see
what you mean to me in the short term it would be but you don't get to stay a hacker if you don't
regularly hack if you know what I mean so it is possible to be a former hacker because you stop
hacking which is kind of a sad thing to think but it's possible at least that's the way I look at it
then how much hacking do you have to do to call or rather how much hacking does somebody have to
do for you to call him a hacker that's a hard question I'm not sure you can pin that down to
a specific time let's try to find something with examples when was the moment that you started
to decide you are a hacker assuming of course you think so I'm still trying to decide if I should
call myself that or not but I think in terms of the way I think about it it's more whether or not
one engagement one has the hacker nature which includes an active engagement with active exploration
and active you know playing with systems trying to find novel ways to use systems the best I could
say is if you do that regularly then maybe you're a hacker now what what counts as regularly I'm
not sure what is definition would this include also the process of thinking of ways to change
alter or attack the system or rather exclusively the act of hacking the system itself for me I would
include thought experiments as as a part of that purely reading about something I wouldn't count
but if you're if you're actively playing with a concept even if you're only doing it in your head
I would say that counts so for your definition you're just not sure if you think about it enough
that's what we're putting that I guess I actually like to play with a lot of different kinds of
systems you know I play with food I do cooking I play with computers all the time different aspects
of computers I'm not an expert programmer or anything I dabble a little but that is like playing
with systems in general do you think you would need to reach a certain depth within your hacking
before you can properly consider it as hacking I would I'm not sure if everyone would agree with
that but at some level of competence I think should be part of the definition exactly where you
draw that line it's hard to say and there's nothing that says that that has to be a formal sort of
competence you don't have to have to agree or anything you can be entirely self-taught and I
think it's anyone that has the hacker nature is going to get there just because you know they're
working on the system and learning anyway but yeah I would say you'd have to you'd have to
achieve a certain level of a certain level of ability to actually really be a quote hacker
unquote then I think a very important question text of hacker public radio where do you think
we should that's that that line should be yeah that's the interesting part of the conversation
that I was that I'm that I'm interested in hearing I'm not actually sure of course since it's
defined as anything of interest to hackers you don't necessarily have to be something that is
of interest to someone who is a hacker may also be of interest to people who want to be hackers
or are just developing the hacker nature so a tough question I guess part of the question is
are we thinking more in terms of people who would be recording for hacker public radio or
people who are just listening to hacker public radio well yes and no I mean we're talking about
the definition of hacker and we're now pretty much trying to express it as people who either listen
or in the record for hacker public radio but we can use that I mean what would you say somebody
would be a hacker or somebody who is not a hacker could have enough experience about the subject
in order to record an episode for hacker public radio despite not being a hacker I would say
absolutely yes because then what they would be presenting with presumably be a description of
a system or a part of a system or some fact that a hacker could then take and do something with
I'm kind of wondering whether we should continue trying to define hacker or whether we should
talk more about what we are looking for for hacker public radio yeah we can move on to that area
I think we pretty much agree what a hacker is more or less we've at least spent quite a lot of time
about the subject at hand that is true I guess the hard part of the question is is there anything
that would not be appropriate for hacker public radio as a topic I mean there must be something
well if we're going to go for the extreme and first because the slow handling fruit I think
a recording of 24 hours of absolute silence complete zero nothing would not be an appropriate
episode for hacker public radio okay yeah I'll know what the heck but it could be edited down to
just an hour would it be okay then yeah that's a tough question because there is this one
there's for example there's this one piece of music written for piano explicitly written for
piano which consists of a certain amount of time of nothing and that's actually called music
and while I'm not really sure whether or not that would should be considered music I'm also
not really sure whether something that could be called music would automatically be of interest to
hackers yeah I agree although come to think of it a short recording of silence might actually
be of interest to hackers if you're an audio hacker and want an example of of real silence or if
you want something to listen to the oliver is always some background hum and it's not really
silent or something of the sort 24 hours is probably overkill though yes there is use in the
or recordings of background noise but the creation of an arbitrary length of complete silence is
easy anyone who wants to do something with a sound on a computer at least the one of the easiest
things to make is a recording of silence this is your I'm just trying to come up with an excuse
why you would actually fit that in the hacker public radio on but that's the only excuse I could
come up with yeah but the other example is the piece of music of absolute silence of the length
and in the in extension of that would music be automatically count as something what would be
of interest to hackers personally I would say no but I suspect there are probably a few people
who would not who would agree that it is of interest so I don't know art fee 61 just returned
welcome back we've moved on from trying to define what is a hacker to what would be of interest
to hackers for a hacker public radio if you recording a show who started with trying to define what
would not be something which would be used and while we started with silence which we dismissed
and now we're pretty much trying to decide whether or not music would automatically count as
something that of interest to hackers so thing which you can use as a hacker public radio episode
what's your view on the subject I think that if anybody listened to the 24 hour New Year's Eve show
you could determine that just about anything people can talk about would be relevant for hacker
public radio I was on probably 17 of those 24 hours and the the content in that time was so varied
that it was just phenomenal so arguably the purpose of hacker public radio is to provide a channel
for communication to hackers or anybody who likes to listen to something different well true
but since it's formally described as of interest to hackers I was right which goes back to the
definition of hacker okay here how about this one would anyone listening to hacker public radio
by any means necessary be considered a hacker I would say no although I would assume that
anybody that actually bothers to listen at least has some amount of the hacker nature or wants to
have some amount of a hacker nature that they want to develop but no not necessarily a hacker when
they listen and I would agree with that I would agree with the fact that anybody who is tuning in
to listen to it wants to advance their knowledge in one way or another and just like you stated
before that you could go in there and look at the list of of shows for the list of what was it
the you know series list and could find I would say that anyone could find something of interest
in there so hypothetically should we drop the hacker from hacker public radio and just call it
internet public radio or general public radio or something of the sort well look at the the alternate
term of hacker public radio was hobby public radio where people couldn't use the word hacker
in their URL because it was blocked uh good point it points back to the same place which you know
again refers back to the time of hacker you don't have to be a computer hacker so to say but you
can be a hobbyist good way of putting it it just happens to be more geared toward people that are
interested in the technology sector than in others and arguably people in a technology setting
have a better understanding of how to operate mumble and would have more success in trying to
get it set up successfully correctly true but there's also people who want to learn about mumble
and that's where the show that that somebody did on the couple of shows that somebody did on
setting up mumble is beneficial I think anything you can anything you can add on hacker public radio
that you have found out works for you could possibly work for somebody else would be a show worth
doing and also if I may plug a little once you manage to set up your mumble on Saturdays at
I'm sorry on Saturdays at 5 p.m universal time coordinate so English time 6 o'clock
Europe Amsterdam if somebody happens to know time in somewhere in America I'd like to hear it
but we are I try to set up a hacker public radio Saturday sessions where you end talk about subject
and have somebody there to ask you your questions or to discuss the subject at the end if you need
somebody in order to create your episode on the front page of hacker public radio there's time
there's a countdown which says when the next recording will be so if you wonder when exactly
it will be then you can check it on the website hacker public radio at all there's also a place
for topics too isn't it that if you can't think of a topic that you want to talk about there's
a list of topics in the on the hacker public radio website on the on page there's a link which
says contribute and on that page there's a list of requested topics and that gets that has
subjects like how did you get into podcasting or Linux or bigdom or I would add a hackerdom in
this case because that's subject we've been talking about today another one is what podcasts
you listen to what you can recommend what's in the bag the tools you always keep close at hand
or a paper at android applications or your favorite desktop applications browser extensions
if you use them there's somebody who wants some introduction into wireshark so if you happen to
know how that program works there's your subject or on how to set up a blog there's one on choosing
an artistic design for a website for business cards that's actually a really good topic because
that's something I really don't understand artistic design music theory is one of the requested
topics or how to set up a VPN an interaction to in it and into system that the episodes about
the Linux professional institute certificate certifications or on networking beginning audio
series for hpr and osmp release I'm not really sure what that means but it has a link and if you
want to know then you can check that out there's also something about hacking torches requested so if
you take a normal computer and happen to put a OSX on it then there's somebody who wants to hear
how you did it there's a request for a subject about a group grant you a unified bootloader the
version 2.0 that has a different setup as opposed to grab one there's somebody who wants something
who wants to know about that and about fm transmitter hacks this list of course is not
exclusive so if you know something about the subject which is not on the list at least
me personally I'd like to hear about it if you feel like talking about it for an hour and have
it recorded and put on a hacker public radio come on the hacker public radio Saturday sessions and
we'll set you up very well put at the canis how is the weather up by you been lately that's been cold
but not cold enough it's warm enough to melt all the snow but not warm enough for it to be really
comfortable yet not too bad though did you get some of those last storms or today kind of scour
under you oh no we got we got dumped on and now it's about three quarters melted again so it didn't
last very long do you think there's still some subject we need to discuss for this episode or do
you think we need to close off I'm getting the feeling we kind of stopped all over the ground that we
wanted to stop on I don't know there's much more left I can really think of anything at the moment
art speak and you think of anything no I think we've gone full circle with it I guess then that
it's time for the hacker public radio ending song then and thank you for having me on thanks for
being here thanks for listening public radio and there's some voices gonna say that later so I'm
gonna shut up now bye you have been listening to hacker public radio at hacker public radio does
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