Episode: 895
Title: HPR0895: 2011-2012 Hacker Public Radio New Year's Eve Part 5/8 (Funding Free Culture)
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0895/hpr0895.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-08 04:26:46

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What will happen next?
I'm a spider just came like right in front of my face do you think there's a connection
on my mic now come here okay connected in a grand sort of way kind of want them off my
mic now getting a good closer there's some some got a what what play at end of what
come but I don't mind I ever freeing from that I heard it to this live I think the right
joke was to make was how did you even see something that small no not the bills do you
like the Beatles no I do like the Beatles right but the thing I've got with the Beatles is they
they stunted me as a guitar player I only realised this a month ago and I was actually
immediately right a blog post about it is when I learned the guitar years and years and years
and years ago unfortunately the band that I took to be my yeah this is what the Beatles
no I don't have to play the Beatles I mean geez no I don't get my wrong I like the
Beels I don't like the Beatles no what are the Beatles you can always tell a John Lennon Chin
or a Macatme Chin and the Beels I mean what what distro are these these days in terms of multimedia
I mean there's like there's some cake I'm using cake studio and is that just a set of that's
a set of repos now or it's an actual distro it's always been a distro the distro
itself the repos are up to date for every version of Ubuntu but the distro itself is only
long-term support to exact same question like three nights ago in the IRC really weird you must
not have gotten the answer well I don't remember it so okay yeah you know now that I think
about I remember him typing it I don't remember the answer I think it was in the open-source
musician room yeah I think there's a kind of excerpts you know and he goes back and forth and
he missed it yeah so cake studios awesome the guy who does it is he's in trading with the name
of the country Portugal he's Portuguese and I mean he's prolific he's the guy who actually wrote
the jackpatch for mumble and he was on my donation list for this year so I donated him to Wikipedia
to see I do a monthly donation to Arter try to think there's some more in there okay here's
here's a here's a question inspired by that do people find that they are spending money on software
now that they're using free software or are you not spending any money like for me I am happy to
donate to the projects that I use and I find that like my software bill quote unquote hasn't really
gone down but I'm much happier paying rather than having to pay for software that I don't even
like in the first place uh well I mean Arter is probably easily the most expensive piece of software
I've ever used yeah how do you in terms of what the the hardware you could attach to it and it
makes you run on buy stuff no how much I've given to the project yeah yeah I bet I'm close to
about six hundred dollars in on Arter holy cow that's great that's $10 a month for five years and
I've done a couple hundred dollar donations in there then I should thank you personally because I
use Arter or all the time yeah thank you but I mean I don't mind paying because when I was on
windows I never paid for anything anyways I just pirated stuff I got to tell you you know I mean
we never we never talk about it we always walk around this subject in free software but the fact
that it is free free as in beer is a huge attraction to me and I think to a lot of people um you
know I could not afford any of the software just about that I have on this machine right now I
absolutely could not if I had to run out and buy windows I could do it and and that is a massive
thing for me and you know I mean I would love to be able to contribute money to different projects
that I think are great but honestly I can't and you know I it's just something I wish I could do
but you know there's just no way and I don't personally I don't think people ought to feel like
they have to just to to the if you give back things like bug group stuff like that but the fact is
no one would write this stuff if no one was using it I agree with what you're saying lost from
Bronx I don't think anybody should feel guilty if if they're not capable sorry I think we might
be saying the same thing but I was gonna say yeah I don't think people should should hesitate to
use the software and not pay for it that is part of the deal it's like part of the attraction
and at the same time um I think that it's it's nicer to when you can pay it feels better to pay
to those projects and you don't have to pay as much you know I mean I used to pay a lot of money
well my dad would pay a lot of money for some software that I that I thought I needed and it never
did do what it was supposed to do anyway so it just we're kind of spreading it around you know we
each pay a little bit uh to the stuff that we use or not but it's the burden isn't on one person
I guess who knows do you pay it it's hitting the developer directly it's not like you're paying
you know Microsoft or for the great driver that somebody wrote for your wireless card and you
know because they're not gonna get that okay that's an actually that that's a perfect
all reason why donating free software is better than running on buying a a package piece of software
downloading it from some big companies website I mean the fact is the people that whose fingers
actually typed in that code are the ones we're gonna be pocketing the money I mean that I mean
the value of that in and of itself is massive because that gives those people incentive to continue
doing what they're doing now I have a question for you guys regarding this because I'm in the same
kind of position lots and bronzes in I I can't afford to pay anything if I had to if I had to pay
for a streaming client or if I had to pay for an install of windows or some other such thing I
could not have it I wore or I would have to steal it and by the way that there's a big distinction
that I've heard a couple of people mention and I hear it all the time people say stuff is free
because you can download it that's not free that's stealing something uh legally I would take
issue with that um stealing uh it's corporate infringement not stealing but it is
corporate infringement is illegal but it's not stealing um and I agree with you it's just a
definition is not it's not stealing um good point yeah I think that's really good that it's not
theft though yeah I I think we can all agree that stealing someone else's property theft is immoral
but I don't think copyright infringement especially of a product that can be endlessly
duplicated for free essentially um I don't see how that can possibly fall you know fall into the
same category as stealing someone's physical property that cost money time and resources
physical resources that had to be you know from from the very basic um the very the very basic
materials involved had to be created from scratch and ultimately got to you in some you know shrink
wrap package that you stuffed in your pocket um I I don't see how information can be tossed
into that exact same category it's ridiculous yeah I don't see it you like it doesn't doesn't
mean it's right or wrong it just means it's not stealing it's copyright infringement yeah I think
we can agree on that yeah copyright infringement laws of copyright infringement are different so it
cannot possibly fall into a moral category you know because when we stop and think about what is
you know morally correct I mean that that in and of itself varies from culture to culture but um
that you know go ahead no at least it varies at least from culture to culture it usually
from community to community and person to person so generation to generation yeah so carry on
last marks I didn't mean interrupt no that's okay I I agree with this little web you know it is
copyright infringement because that is the law you know it doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't
mean that it's wrong you know it's just a state of legal you know I mean we're taking it on faith
that things that are against the law are bad but as we all know you know these are times where
things are gray the right and wrong of things are are not as clear as they once were to say my
parents or their parents especially um you know in the United States we're going through a time where
I think you know for some many decades now um our faith in lawmakers and law and the government
has been you know really challenged um but previous previous generations didn't have that they might
have disagreed with the people in charge but they never thought of morally thieves um people who
are letting down their constituents left and right crux in other words and as a result by extension
every law that they support we tend to think of you know we look at it as scant you know um and in
this community we're especially critical and hyper you know political I mean you go into the
Microsoft area nobody thinks about stuff nobody talks about this stuff you know I wanted to bring
this up earlier and didn't know didn't know how to work in the conversation but I think this is
a pretty good time I was listening to a podcast with a guy uh the Joe Rogan podcast if you don't
know Joe Rogan's a comedian but he had ever last on if you don't remember him he had a song called
uh what it's like and he was also in house of pain and he actually said that you know he came out
on an attack of illegal downloading music okay very enough but he he also said if he could go back
in time he would erase the internet because he thinks on the whole the internet has had a
holy negative impact and uh it just kind maybe that's and we arrive at the point that I'm trying to
make it hasn't had a negative impact on his life he's wrong but the only he's wrong from the fact that
in the same in the token that you know his album would not have sold as many as he is was
getting downloaded okay people were exposed to his music and possibly went to a concert because
of exposure to that mp3 the concept that because somebody downloaded a song that you've lost a
sale is incorrect before now I'm a recovered pirator you know I I don't pirate software and I don't
illegally download music and I haven't in many many years but at one point I did and I was on
windows and the types of software that I was pirating wasn't going to be a sale if it wasn't
available as an illegal download okay I was downloading Photoshop and Adobe Premiere and After Effects
and stuff like that but I couldn't afford those so you wouldn't have made a sale in lieu of the
piracy you would have just lost somebody who was going to try to enter the market and learning
how to use those software tools and get a job using them so you would have lost a sale you know
the house of pain thing I couldn't let that go without saying jump around is a brilliant tune
absolutely fucking brilliant tune I so love watching jump around is just so class um but yeah um
on on the wider thing and the last sale thing testing you test it came through yeah we can hear
you go ahead this one yeah I was going to say um oh you remember but I don't know a year ago maybe
Adobe came out and said that around 80% 80% 4 fifth of their sales they know to be illegal copies
of Photoshop and whatever and the point is they can make a profit from the 1 fifth the 20%
of people who can't afford not to pay license fee they can afford they they can make a profit from
the graphics designers from the um from the various stores who it would cost them so much in PR
to be labeled pirate that they would pay the license fee that's how they can get away with
charging $1,500 of whatever it is for a photoshop license that's how they can get away with it
and they can still make a profit out of that 80% of their license of their users are quote-unquote
pirates well I mean how many people are in in my continuing hatred for yeah we've got each other
they shore up that I mean the reason Photoshop is an industry standard is it because it's the most
amazing program that was ever written it has a lot of features you know I'm not saying it
doesn't but other software didn't didn't become a competitor because you could pirate Photoshop
and just get them now and if so if you could say eliminate all of Photoshop's piracy and everybody
had to in order to use it by a copy of Photoshop Photoshop wouldn't exist another product would have
come along that was cheaper and better so that's that's that's why that's why when when people
argue that oh if if Adobe released their stuff native Linux and they put their photoshop and
after effects and various other programs into the repositories and made them available at whatever
it is 300 dollars or whatever per application that they would automatically outdo the gimp and
inkscape and what are bolux absolute bolux to that idea I will refute that till the end of time
when you have something like the gimp I don't use the been downloading episodes of meet the gimp
to try and learn and you know one day I'll get around to doing that but the thing is if you've got
a photoshop in the repositories of Ubuntu or Debian or Fedora or whatever it is they have got to prove
that they are 300 dollars better than the gimp and they are not going to do that yes they have
filters yes they have functions yes they have some effects but they are not 300 or 400 dollars
better they are simply not and I don't think they necessarily have to prove that they're 300 dollars
better than anything they just have to prove they're a stable enough company for some industry with
lawyers to be able to rely on which doesn't mean they rely on the software it means that they
rely on their ability to sue them and get money from them if something breaks well I think you're
essentially you're getting right to the heart of the matter you know I hate to say it but I think
lawyers are at the heart of much of the problems we have in software today has nothing to do with the
code okay we have is nothing to do with code and honestly it has very little to do with the law
in and of itself or what is right let me put it this way what is right or wrong it's got very little
to do with that the fact is we have people who want to hold on to a a business model that cannot
possibly function in the virtual world they cannot function with ones and zeros you know because
you cannot you know you cannot monetize something without you know something virtual without turning
it into something that they're familiar with already something that you can put a limit on so
that's where software you know patents come in and that's where that's where licenses come in a
license is you know I mean it comes in to say that you from the library comes in there they're
attempting to limit something that is on in and of its nature is unlimited you know it's
attempting to put limits on something that cannot be limited in and of itself you know so I mean
the point there you they're trying to put laws and legal bindings on things to try to give them
artificial limits and and and that will function properly in their business models and that's why
those things are you know I mean we again we in this community see those things as archaic
and archaic mindset eventually you know I personally I see this period of time in history as kind
of a change kind of a sea change in the way people will do things we don't yet draw the line between
virtual products and real products and by virtual I don't mean like you know crap you'd buy in
second life or something like that but I mean like things that can be replicated for free you know
I can't replicate my car for free and honestly I wouldn't the freaking thing died on me today but
I I I wouldn't I can't do that right but I can I can replicate my operating system for free
why should they be sold in the exact same manner is ridiculous but I would say the distortion
of intellectual property doesn't just stop I mean I I get that there's a line between digital
in the real world but it's been distorted long before that I mean copyright was never intended
to last as long as it is patents were never designed to be applied to organisms and to software
and to these kind of unprovable ideas it's been distorted for a really long time it's just now
it's so distorted that it's it's it's crowding out everything else well the purpose of it was
all the same I mean every the examples you give are good ones but they're they're you know they
they're the exact they have the exact same function and that is to an extend a business model do
you think that Walt Disney is ever ever going you know the Disney companies ever going to a lot
any Mickey Mouse stuff fall into public domain you know they were they won't they won't
I'm kidding I know they won't they will fight it to the nail if they have to you know because the
moment any of it falls into public domain it loot they they feel they're going to lose revenue you
know and the only thing that is going to change is a mindset a mindset a sea change the idea that
they could make money doing things differently quite frankly quite frankly I don't think anyone
is figured out exactly how to do it just yeah because you don't I mean no one is going to be like
Jonathan Colton you know no Disney is going to be like Jonathan Colton where they go around
working their ass off you know and and make an impocating the money individually you're not
going to see a CEO be doing that for Disney's sake it's it's just it can't have no but but
fuck Disney because Jonathan Colton is great everybody loves the guy everybody wants to support him
Scott Sigler an author is great everybody loves him wants to support him this is the new way of doing
business it's not going to be easy on most of us to get there but this is the way it's supposed to
work that's a thing is it is it honestly you know yes we know we know listen to me listen to me
we hail this as being the most you know radical change in commerce and communication that the
world has ever seen I hail it as the potential for that but honestly the exception that proves the
rule and the rule is that the guys who have the money are the ones that are going to change the
laws and try to change reality to make things work for them you know that's true I'm not debating
that point I'm saying that guys who put out their content and make it available because it's
really copyable and by three I just mean it doesn't cost you anything to copy it because it's
copyable that way then you have to kind of work under the parameters of work under the assumption
that your work is going to be copied from computer to computer from person to person so it's only
right in the very essence of doing work it's only right that if you intend to be paid for your
work that you should be paid for your work so when someone gives out their music or their book or
their other work for a fee that fee should go directly to that person and the people involved in
producing it and mastering it or whatever have you so yes I think it is the way that it's
supposed to be now as far as the lawyers getting involved and screwing everything up no that should
not be the fact that lawyers exist at all is is an abortion of justice and it's an aberration
of mankind it shouldn't happen but what I mean by the way it should be is that people should be
able to pay for what they want and they should be able to pay the person who made it I think the
more and more actually not just geeks but regular people are coming to the the realization
obvious realization that the middlemen are where album money gets sapped up and if you want to buy
an album and compensate the person the creative mind that come up with these songs and the people
who put their heart and soul and the plaintiff their instruments to create that music that they're
rickety not to them you know people are realizing that people more and more people are realizing that
now I think that's gradually taking the place and I think the middlemen who that's their social
income is being the financiers behind movies behind albums behind books tv shows whatever it is
I think they're having problems and they're the ones who are desperate to keep a hold over the
the middleman control that comes through software or paper or whatever else it is they want to
avoid they want to maintain their position between the artists the people create the art create whatever
it is and the fans because then on that allows the fans and the artists to to to join themselves
with bypassing the middleman and the middleman just can't stand that essentially well you know you're
right I think you're absolutely right and I think the thing is the problem I think I see right now
and is that not everybody is a Scott Sibler not everybody is you know a JC Hutchins these people
that go out and shake their ass who work okay lost and brought to you heard you say they shake their
ass and work and then you cut out okay I said was that they work hard and not every author can do
that okay not everybody can manage that and I don't think we have something in place that
allows people that all they want to do is create the content not distribute it to be able to
distribute it without getting a middleman a bureaucratic bloated you know label of some sort of label
a publishing company whatever some middleman to to you know steal the money out of their pocket
I think we're getting close yeah I have to say we're really close I mean a lot of us in this
channel right now are producing artwork and I feel like a lot of us are distributing it pretty
well I mean I'm not making a living off of it but no well that's the point I think we need to stay
in that they're making money on it well that's okay I wanted to you know I don't know that this
ties into to a profound point and I'm not going to make a prediction on where things are going
or or why but you know Lewis CK is just released a stand-up DVD the normally who would have
distributed through the normal channels instead he released it on his website without DRM on it
and he said normally he made like you know he'd make like maybe five or six thousand dollars on
the DVD but hopefully it would get him booked for more live shows and that's kind of the business
model that currently exists for a comedian there's not a lot of money in it there's a lot of money
in it for the distributor but not for the comedian but he gets exposure or whatever so he thought well
since I don't make any money I'll release this on my website and you know I'll charge five bucks
or whatever and I'm not going to put any DRM or whatever you can just download it and watch it and
I know people are going to steal it I wish they wouldn't but you know they're going to do that anyways
so I don't know like it's all that there's a profound statement but I'm saying that
I think he cut out is it is it is it that I cut out yeah you cut out for me I wanted to hear the
punchline on that it's what it I cut out he was I'm not going to make any money off of this but
whatever I'll put it on my website and then it went silent yeah and so he ended up making a
$750,000 in the first three weeks lost in the incredible lost in the Bronx did I'm so
glad you're sober to keep track of these things is that I knew they cut out for me I'm glad I'm
glad it's really over here because I won't be later you know it cut out for me at the same time
as you and I was trying to think where they cut out from and you did cut out and it saved me the
hustle honestly so I thank you but anyways like I said I don't know that that's broke this
will live if there's any profound statement to say about that is that here is a an industry
darling a guy who's had four shows through you know he if you know the story behind the the show
Louis that he does now on FX is that he was going out to strike up a deal for a new sitcom and
they were offering him a million dollars signing bonus to to do the pilot for this sitcom and he was
kind of my man didn't really want to do the sitcom but he was he was out there and talking to him
and he gets a phone call from the CEO of of FX network and he said look I have the worst deal in
the world for you I hope you love it he says I can't offer you any money but I want you to do a show
on FX and you can do whatever you want and he said well you know it can't be no money but what can
you pay me and he said I can get you uh ten thousand dollars ten thousand dollars for what kind of
time frame here's the story right so he goes okay so you want a pilot for ten thousand dollars he
goes no we want a season for ten thousand dollars and let us see because yeah yeah I don't I don't
think that's going to happen and he goes now hear me out he says if this works you know you'll get
to do whatever you want free reign and so Louis CK says okay why are it to my bank account tonight
I want wired to my bank account and I'm doing this under the deal that whatever I send you is what
goes out nobody edits it nobody talks about it I'm not going to take notes I'm not going to take
feedback for this you know I'm doing it for nothing I'm just going to send you a show and he edits
the show Louis on his MacBook Pro you know I'm not going to get into that but you know he
all on his own and he sends it to and it's amazing and it's I know it's you know it's one hundred
percent genuine so there are people that are mainstream people that yeah pipe pipe you're cutting in
I know you know and these are awesome stories I really want to hear yeah yeah since you're cutting
in now anyway I hope the HBR just disconnected wow yeah yeah chat on the side wow he was like
spanked by the internet well his recording still knowing and so his mind so we're okay yeah yeah
we don't need and there's that hold on hold on hold on I got it means I got to save these
these files working it recording in hold on a second no that that's kind of the names me of the
the whole that's not going on this will web I'm too drunk to understand that could you
repeat that that was the best calling bullshit I've heard it a while that's cool I'm
killed with a like oh shit I'm rolling guys this will web has a lot of brain latency going on
right now yeah you're telling me tell us when we're recording okay I got I got something to say
too I don't know when I cut out so I don't know how much you missed but you were like in and out
but I got the gist of the story was pretty clear we're up so so I'm just gonna wrap up real quick
and just say that there's mainstream guys that are more that at the beginning of that he was
motivated not by money but by creativity he took on the show based on creativity and then he put
out this DVD and decided to release it out there and the fans of his show and of him and his
personality instead of him making a couple thousand dollars on that DVD he made almost a million
dollars cash in three weeks you know and and that's there's big rewards out there for artists that
take that kind of risk and and circumvent all the bullshit and do something genuine and honest
I like the risk of being a hypocrite I I have to agree with you because um do you know a man
to Palmer she's uh one half of the duo the uh Dresden Dolls and uh they you know she they've
had a you know that it's a two son band and they've been going on for years and years and they
have quite a following and uh during some downtime she decided and you know I don't know who their
label was but it was it was a standard label deal and she lost money on her solo album and she
was like incredibly pissed about this because they sold it like sold the ass off thing it was insane
how how well this thing sold and she didn't get you know she'd like actually had to pay the studio
or the uh back and she got really really pissed about this and decided as far as I know at any
right she decided that they were gonna go in the end you know from that point on but the the
the point is one night she was on Twitter and she said come to my website because you know no no
she in fact I take this back she did it all through Twitter she decided she was gonna auction crap
off from her house she was home she was like half toasted you know from from from wine and she's
sitting there and she's like I got stuff around my house and I got fans and like thousands of
people following me on Twitter I'm gonna start selling stuff in four hours she made something like
$12,000 just selling crap out of her house right two thousand dollars you see and yet she had
to post it you see it sounds yeah it sounds like we're about to buy some this a web year
this a web just heard heard his business model I wish Peter 64 was on here I'd love to hear
what he was gonna sell like burnt helicopters and hours and things sorry did don't you go I just
make a joke I enjoyed the joke I have I was hawking and I missed it so I'm gonna have to listen to
the recording of this to catch it he just said he's drunk and he's getting ready to sell his stuff
as we're us hinting at you were telling your story and he goes half toasted and selling stuff on
Twitter and making 12 grand yeah he was about you were you were about to sell him on the whole idea
but the point the point is it was her fan base that supported her you know it was you know
and that allowed her pressure creativity just take advantage of her brand you know now that was a
brand that up in that moment up until that and up until that realization that was a brand
primarily owned by the label they were the ones that marketed it all right now I have to ask the
question um and again this is me running the risk of being hypocritical here but if users
connecting directly with the people who supply art and media supporting these people directly if
this is the business model that we're supposed to have if this is what works and because it's
certainly working now for some people um and assuming that it takes off and does work is it sustainable
can we keep this up or is the next generation of people gonna be so used to getting their stuff
without paying for it that they're not gonna bother to even think about it I think it's sustainable
I mean I think look at the free software model that already exists it's been sustained for quite
some time I think this could work in the long run it's just you know some artists might have to
accept that they're not gonna be able to do their art full-time like you know multimillion marketing
campaigns allows them to do but I don't think a true artist is gonna care about that so much
so I think it's sustainable there might be some changes I don't think that the free software
movement is a good example of that because largely it's financially supported by corporations who
were making money off of it I'm I'm talking about art where it's gonna be bought directly by the end
user the short answer is yes I think it's definitely sustainable because I mean the Amanda Palmer
is just a small drop in the bucket on a larger scale you have somebody like Prince who did his
CDs in the I don't remember what Sunday paper it was over in London but you know he may he made
a couple million off of that alone and even then on his his website he streams his music and
people pay for that and it's something to the tune of 70,000 a month now granted he's established
but the fact of the matter is is I think that the more of these bands savvy bands not stupid ones
and bands that are really good and know what they're doing they will always find a way to get
their music out there and to tell you the truth I mean in terms of the music that I listen to
you know it's it's funny because one of the mediums that I used in order to decide whether or not
I was going to buy an album or anything what was one of two ways if I heard it on a radio usually
college radio station I liked it I would I would buy it the other way is like we used to do in the old
days we had cassette tapes we mean mixed tapes and send it out to everybody and you know that's
basically how Metallica grew their fan base the hypocritical bastards they are
yeah right I think like what's going on right now is we're creating an artist's middle class
that hasn't exist especially I mean I can only speak now between the musician side of it I can't
you know I'm not talking to art you know painters and you know designers and stuff like that but
from a music perspective in the in the old days there was either you were the road musician who
worked his butt off and ate nothing and that's you know I mentioned Danny Gatton earlier he he
ended up killing himself because he was that guy he worked his tail off you know he did all right
but you know and then there was the mega rich so there was the struggling poor starving musician
and then there's the guy who gets a record deal it makes big you know and then there's a guy who
who wash out you know they get a record deal album doesn't do too well and they're flipping burgers right
I think what's going on right now is there's enough of that that maybe you won't have the next
pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin or Beatles or or huge mega U2s you know those arrows Smith those kind
of bands what you'll get is guys who make a decent living and do what they do but that's not
even what I'm talking about it's not really at all of my question is because I agree that it is
working now and I don't think that an established band has any particular advantage in this in this
realm given any amount of time because people are becoming established through this business model
I mean and I get it it's working now people are paying for what they like and supporting the
artists that are making it but in 20 years are your neighbor's kids going to pay for music are
your neighbor's kids going to pay for art that they can download um that's that's my real question
is it about sustainability think you're underestimating people's comprehension of of the need to
eat and and survive I think people know yes if you like an artwork if you like someone's music
you got to tip them at some point and if enough people tip this person then they're going to be
able to make more and more music without having to get a day job or whatever I think it is
sustainable I don't think everyone just thinks that music and musicians grow on trees I people
understand that and even if they get an album for free at some point when they're able and they know
okay this is a donation based system I need to start pulling my own weight then they'll give money
I mean that's how it is I I know you say you think free software is a bad example I think it's a
good example I think it's working people who can't pay don't people who do they do and that's
how it works and even some art is already funded like that even like museums and things like that
I mean yeah you've got the super rich people financing it on the behind the scenes and you got
normal people giving a little bit of money here and there I think it's gonna level out I think
honestly I think that I don't think they know artists can live on tips honestly I don't believe
that somebody going back to Jonathan Colton you know he is music free to copy and people do buy
his albums and I suspect because he's popular he makes a fair amount of money off of his album
downloads but the fact is before he got to be anybody who's who's very I mean arguably he is
the superstar of the geek you know frees you know sort of free culture movement but the fact is
it is touring where these guys make their money the real money most of them you know yeah yeah
and and and the fact you know you maybe you got to pay a cover to get in and he's made a deal with
you know um whatever venue he's working in I don't know exactly how the works and he's selling
albums right there you know he's selling CDs you know right there but that's primarily where a lot
you know again he may be atypical but a lot you know most of these guys who are who are trying to
follow this model they're only going to be able to make their money by by constantly producing it
you know and not every artist can can distribute their art in that way you know you could try to be
a sculptor and really distribute your work sure all you all you can distribute our copies of it
you know like you know pictures of it yeah but those people aren't yourself that's a slightly
different thing though but I don't want to get sent out but but they're they're you know a
3d printer might enable a sculptor to do that but there was another point there was another point
that I wanted to make and that's that Jonathan Colton was actually on planet money this year
and released his financial records to planet money and they set on the podcast what he made
do you remember how it broke out he's not super rich I'd be willing a bit lost in broncs is pretty close
with saying he's the middle class artist okay throw out some numbers what do you think he made
this year what would I guess this year mm-hmm I would say probably less than three years ago I'd say
25 grand no I would say two to three hundred thousand five hundred away five hundred and fifty
thousand that much really yeah yeah but again no again though he is the big the big guy you know
he is right you know he is the star now he's not the middle class that's what I'm saying there is
a middle class in there there is a man no no no no no no no no well I got I got to stop you there
that's that 500 grand for a guy who's been working his whole life if you average that out over the
time that he spent literally being a code monkey and touring and working his ass off for music that
averages out to about middle class he can no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no I just
I just we're all working our ass off we are all the code monkey yeah all of us and we're not making
that kind of money you know so that what what is that make him it him middle class and we're we're
or nothing, you know, we're poppin' or we're peasant.
The point is he makes that in one year,
doesn't move him magically out of the middle class.
If he's smart, he's gonna squirrel that away
for tougher times because that's what you do.
Well, that's the same with anybody who's,
I mean, you know, we, you could look at any big music star
right now who's making millions and millions of dollars,
but you know that we know what pop music is like
and in a couple of years, a year or two,
when they're not so cute anymore
and their music is out of fashion,
these guys aren't gonna be makin' any of that money.
And like anybody else, they gotta squirrel it away.
But, you know, what does that make him?
Well, I mean, we're talking about this category.
My point is he's a 500 grand year is a cash windfall.
It's not, it's not, he's not,
so you don't think it's sustainable.
You don't think it's time it goes.
I'm not saying that he can't.
I'm saying this.
Before the argument goes too much further, okay?
I just wanna raise the point that Jonathan Colton
has said in the past that as soon as he quit coding
and started making music,
he's made more money making music every year
than he did making code.
So I just wanna point that out
before this argument keeps going.
He's always made more money.
We're not, we're not, we're not, we're not.
Yeah, I'm glad he has.
As soon as he did it full time,
he was making more money with music
than he, when he, the year he did the thing a week,
he was, he made more money that year
than he did the previous year.
So he's, every year, he's made more money.
And I'm glad he has, he's a good man, he makes good music.
And frankly, he's earned that money.
I would never say he didn't earn it.
I just, I don't, I'm just saying that I don't think
what he's done is signed up for a salary.
He's still an artist.
And I don't think a smart person in his position
would take it for granted
that that 500 grand is coming every year.
And I just don't think that that moves you into
but what artists, what artists could?
I mean, even if you have a big record deal,
there's nobody who's guaranteed.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
But if you land, I mean, we can guarantee that.
If you lean on a wall of tens of millions,
I'm sorry, last month, I was gonna need to jump on it.
No, no, go ahead, go ahead.
So if you land a windfall of cash, 10 million, 20 million,
you stick that in the bank and don't ever touch it
and live off the interest,
now you're making 500 grand a year
for the rest of your life.
But there's less than a thousand artists
in the history of mankind that have ever done that.
You could say that about any line of work.
I mean, you could be a CEO of the biggest corporation
in the world, get cancer next year.
And all you have is what you put aside.
And maybe, you know, any bonuses you negotiated,
but that's in the past.
You can't count on what your next contract's gonna be.
But he, I totally agree.
See, all of this, all of this comes down to the previous,
the back catalog as well.
So if you're, I don't know if you're a band like Queen,
and by the time you get to, like, 1980,
you've had six or seven albums out there
that are constantly, when you release a new album,
well, you're going to buy the earlier stuff.
It's a new, it's a new lease of life on the earlier stuff.
So it gives a boost of life to what's already out there.
So all of this, all of the big label stuff is like that.
They rely on the new album, reintroducing new sales
of the older stuff, which breaks into that.
So you've constantly got stuff that you did seven or eight years ago,
nine years ago, 10 years ago, constantly making a little bit extra
and a little bit extra and a little bit extra, adding to the total.
Well, you got to understand, too, that art is radically different
than, say, software, you know, or the software model in that,
or other things that are essentially transient.
You know, as important as they may be at the moment,
they are essentially transient because, you know,
who is going to pay for, you know, a copy of Red Hat
from, you know, five, six, seven years ago?
Who's going to pay cash money for that, right?
People are still buying Elvis Presley albums.
I think there's something physical in art that connects with people
because if something like a painter was specifically tied to
what they produce only, you know, the internet was way more capable
of displaying an image of a piece of art than it was an MP3 of a piece of art.
The difference is that the business model for a painter
wasn't that he was selling these overinflated, ridiculous albums
with all this ridiculous crap tied to it
that really, in the end, they were kind of screwing their consumers.
But painters, as a net, you don't hear about how much they lament
the internet because there are people who buy their stuff
want the physical painting on their wall.
The original is the important part.
A print might be the important part.
And a picture on the wall hasn't been replaced by, you know,
people are buying digital picture frames
so they can display Picasso, you know.
I think there's a business model in there.
And I think vinyl, oddly enough, vinyl sales keep going up every year.
It's the only form of media in music entertainment that keeps going up.
And it's kind of like an art form.
I mean, it's something people want a physical copy,
but people were never emotionally attached to a CD.
And a CD is kind of essentially the same as the download.
And to them, they don't make that connection,
but people have a physical, like, an emotional connection to a piece of vinyl.
And, you know, there's more money to be made from a fan, a true fan
than just the sale itself for the music, you know what I mean?
Yeah, absolutely.
That goes back to what I was saying hours ago now, you know,
I mean, it's not the content alone anymore.
It's the content plus the artist.
And people will pay for that package deal,
just like they're paying for free software package deal
where they know that they can access that programmer and say,
look, I love it, but you need to move this button over here.
And they'll do it.
And that's why people are paying.
And that's why people are going to pay for independent art
because they know that they can get to that person,
they can get, they can get their merchandise,
they can meet them at the show, stuff like that.
That there's an appeal there.
And the only other way to sell really to people
is to ram a million dollars of marketing down their throats.
And I'm hoping that that phase is dead now.
People aren't listening as much to the marketing
and people will start listening more to the art and the artist.
See, I'm not dead in your next presidential election.
We'll prove it.
I've said this for, I said it on your show, plateau.
I don't think that mass market media is going anywhere.
I think what the internet has brought
and what the small artist has brought
is in addition to what already exists.
I don't think it's going to replace it.
There's something, what Jonathan Colton
have ever gotten a big record deal in the old days?
And by old days, I mean, maybe even only 10 years ago,
15 years ago, what he ever have gotten the deal.
And if he didn't get the deal, he wouldn't have gotten
the exposure, right?
And he wouldn't have gotten the tours signed up for him
instead of him going out and doing the work himself.
And that means no exposure, right?
And that means hand-based, you know?
Those guys are going to do it.
Those guys are going to take the reins
and do it on the wrong.
But for every channel of Colton,
there's 100 out there who don't want anything
to do with that end of it, you know?
And those are the guys that the labels are still
going to go after.
Sure.
I wonder if people like Jonathan Colton,
the exception rather than the norm,
and the fact that they can genuinely
and the fans, the people who listen actually agree
and categorize them as art.
Because, I mean, you look at major studio releases of movies,
the major mainstream album releases, band releases,
they're all mainstream, they're all designed as industry,
as product.
And I think fans are gradually realizing
that that's not the same thing as art.
The product is not necessarily art.
That a movie is not necessarily art.
It's there to take various boxes.
I mean, I was like, was the reaction, there's not art.
There's no way in hell are we considered them art.
There's nothing artistic about them.
But the reaction fact, there's a difference.
And I think more and more people are realizing the difference
between studio produced, the mass produced,
mainstream produced, the lead produced, studio produced,
product and art.
And I think art is what individuals come to a product,
produce a product that has something to say.
They might not agree with what it has to say,
but it's something a bit unusual,
a bit different rather than just taking the boxes.
The average person is not that savvy.
I'll tell you that.
I kind of wanted to respond to what
Lost and Brunk said and say that I disagree in the fact
that I don't think it's going to amend.
I think it will for a while, but I think the internet
is going to swallow major media companies
like it did newspapers.
I think right now, the music industry,
and most of the entertainment industry
sits right now where newspapers did 10 years ago,
and that in another 10 years,
it's going to be a vastly different landscape.
And I pay pretty close attention
to the business models of these small independent artists.
One example I want to give you is really recently,
and that's what the podcast,
something we can all relate to.
And that is the Tell them Steve Dave podcast.
If you know who Tell them Steve Dave is,
if you're into Kevin Smith movies,
it's a guy Walt Flanagan and Brian Johnson.
And they were best friends with Kevin Smith
when he was in high school.
And they've been in all of his US universe movies.
The one guy is the fanboy and he says,
he yells something snarly at somebody
and Walt Flanagan says,
Tell them Steve Dave, okay.
And they have a podcast,
and it's a pretty popular podcast,
much more popular than anything we're doing.
But one of them got the idea to release.
You said, I like that.
What's that?
I said, I like this one better.
I like that podcast a lot.
And I think they're good guys.
But one of them got the idea to release a podcast on vinyl.
Okay.
The other guys were like, this is ridiculous.
There's no way.
Nobody cares.
Nobody cares about vinyl.
That it's dead.
And so the guy said, okay.
A couple thousand dollars would you guys,
yeah, if we could get a couple thousand dollars.
So they decided how are they going to do it?
And they did a Kickstarter campaign, okay?
And they said, if we can get 2000,
this will be a limited print,
just something really special for the really good fans
to have it.
And we'll see if there's any interest.
And if we can get the Kickstarter going, we'll do it.
And the Kickstarter closed in two days with $12,000.
Yeah, but I mean, come on.
They had a massive fan base to begin with.
And maybe they don't make a lot of money off their podcast.
But that's a matter of shaping their brand
and their products, so to speak,
to make money off of that.
The fact is none of us could do that.
There isn't anybody here in this chat right now
that could hold that off.
I don't think that they were massive to begin without.
I'll argue that point with you.
I think by its very nature, it being the podcast,
they started off small and grew an audience.
And you may be corrected, none of us could do it.
But maybe that's just because we're not
hilariously brilliantly funny people.
Yeah, the whole Kevin Smith gang with the various people
that have gone with Brian and the whole tell them,
Steve Day, the whole cast.
I mean, these guys are really funny as it is.
So that's a bit unusual.
These guys have got a natural talent.
These are these people are naturally funny.
Small cast is looking hilarious.
If people have not, if they don't have small cast
with Kevin Smith and Scott Mojure on their list,
honestly, get subscribed to the RSS with fucking hilarious.
And these guys are mates of theirs.
They've appeared in small cast from time to time.
And they are brilliant as well.
These guys have already got a built-in audience.
But the thing is, these people already have an audience.
And I have lost my train of thought here.
So I'm just going to cut off the mic.
But my point is that, yeah, maybe they have a big audience.
But they would not have existed in an old paradigm.
There would have been no way.
No, maybe they wouldn't have existed on their own.
But they still would have been, you know, Kevin Smith-Hodys.
They still would have been his hangers on.
And they would have found some other way to market that fact.
You know, I mean, they may be very, very funny on their own.
But I'll tell you this, there is no shortage of talent.
There's no shortage of humor out there.
You know, the funniest people I have ever known,
and I mean, you know, funny to the bone.
The funniest people I ever knew never made a dime off of comedy.
You know, they're just regular people who happen to be funny.
And the fact is, and people who have a great voice, you know,
people who have maybe a great singing talent.
And the only place they ever sing might be in church, right?
There is talent out there by the bucket load.
But what we don't have is an easy way
for these people to market their talent.
We do know.
I mean, that's my argument against that.
We do.
No, I mean, if I'm a writer, and I got it,
I'll tell you this, if I'm a writer,
and I got to go, you know, pricing, print,
and I got to get all the books sent to my house,
and then I got to pack them all up,
and I got to send them all out by UPS.
I got to tell you, I am never going to write a freaking book.
But that's exactly what God's England does.
There's not, there's not the actual creation of the art.
It's the getting it up to the people.
And that's where, that is exactly the point.
This is where it's hit it right on the net, right on the head.
That is where, yeah, you're telling me.
And all the state of mind has proven, you know,
or, no, guys, trust me, I've got,
I don't know if anyone follows me, you know, I can't.
I mentioned something about an ideal project,
and just the ideal domain name popping up at the right time.
But this is part of this.
It will be the view of the fall and date.
But the idea is that sometimes things just join up.
And the thing is with self promotion,
or self creation, whether it's podcasts,
whether it's music, whether it's anything else,
is the one thing that the major networks
have the traditional outlooks have,
whether it's movie distributors, book distributors,
album distributors, the one thing they have
is they have all of the distributors lined up.
So if you are an artist, sign to a major label,
you're going to get your ass on MTV.
You're going to get your ass on any other music network
to the other part of radio stations.
They're going to get your song played on all their networks.
If you are not signed up to their artists,
to their agreement to cut their men in the deal,
there's no way in hell you're going to get on MTV.
There's no way in hell you're going to get on
to their distribution networks on their radio stations.
The same thing with books, with movies,
if you create an independent movie,
it doesn't matter how good it is.
It doesn't matter how bizarre it is, how cool it is.
Keep in mind, NOSLE Web,
you're talking about two vastly different paradigms
where what the internet has done
has created a world where consumers can pay creators
for their content.
That's all the boils down to.
When you're talking about MTV,
you're talking about major, most computer houses,
that has nothing to do with you wanting to get art
or production from those people.
That has to do with you being a product.
That you are a product, and they are selling you to advertisers.
And the content they put on those networks
is not a distribution network with you in mind,
other than that's the bait and they're there to lure you in
so they can sell you to advertisers.
These are two vastly different paradigms.
They cannot work.
Yeah, up to a point.
I agree with you.
I agree with you.
But that only up to a point.
The point is that if you are part of the old boys network,
you're going to be promoted as one of them.
If you're not off a network,
you're not going to get that chance.
You're absolutely not going to get that chance.
I agree with you for their network.
You're going to get paid a lot to be the bait
that lures in the viewer or the listener
or whatever medium we're talking about.
You're going to get paid a lot to be that bait.
What I'm saying is the internet is a different paradigm
completely.
First off, there's never been any guarantee
just because you got signed to a label
that you were going to make millions of millions of dollars.
If your stuff does sell,
they dump you faster than they will fish.
You stink to them and they don't want anything to do with you
if they can't make a dime off of you.
Is the percentage of people that get signed to labels
something like 15 to 20% that actually make it?
To refer to another planet money,
the fact is they were saying that it's something
like 90% of all albums lose money.
And it's always been that way.
I was just going to say I'd be surprised
if it was as much as 15 to 20%.
Yeah, I think it's 90% of albums lose money overall.
But those 10% pay for the rest.
Maybe about 20 years ago,
I stuck in my brain.
I was watching television and I don't know,
it was like entertainment tonight or some garbage.
And they had Kenny Rogers of all people on there, right?
And I remember a comment he made.
He said that the host made some ridiculous comment
about, oh geez, you're always working.
I mean, you're touring something like 250 days out of the year.
It's just, why do you keep working like that?
You've been so popular and he said,
you don't make any money if you don't tour.
If you look at the statistics,
every city you go to where you were touring,
your album sales spike.
And when you leave, the album sales drop.
And that is where the money is, you know,
in touring.
Now, of course, he was a studio, you know,
he was a label guy, right?
So the money he was really making was for the label
and then, you know, he was sucking off of that team.
But if he was on his own, if he was an independent guy,
you know, and you know, who cares, you know,
who we're really talking about,
not necessarily Kenny Rogers.
But any artist, your independent artist,
that is where your money is going to be in pressing the flesh.
And people seeing you and then being part of that experience.
And then people can trade and give your stuff.
What the fact is you're giving away,
giving away his music and support him, right?
So he's making good money off.
But the fact is it is the Jonathan Colton, you know,
mystique that people want to buy into.
I mean, you can't, you cannot freaking get a space
at Comic Con when that guy is appearing over in San Diego.
You can't, you can't get in there.
And they can fit like something like five, six,
seven thousand people into that room.
And it's SRO, you know,
he could sell out a huge stadium at this point.
So regardless of the distributor there,
what you're saying is the guys have to give their music away.
It's just whether or not you prefer to give it to one of your content houses
or whether you want to give it to an ISP
and let people download it for free if they have the money and touring.
Then it's the same business model anyway.
I would, I would take one issue with the fact that touring,
by and large pays for the most of what artists make.
But the money that's made for touring by and large,
it doesn't go to the artist.
So they make good money touring.
But well, not only that, I'm not talking about those kind of guys.
I'm talking to the guys in a van,
going in book and shows and stuff like that.
They make decent money from the venue,
but the venue makes the venue and ticket master together
and the promoters and all that make huge amounts of money on top of that.
It's not a peer for me there.
When you go see them live, you're, you're, you're still paying
a pretty small percentage to the artist.
The one hold out that an artist has is merchandise.
So it's always been true that if you buy a sticker from your favorite artist,
you'll give him more money in his pocket than any of the albums or live shows.
You get you, you, you, you, you, a sticker alone.
We'll make him more money than anything else you buy.
And we gave those damn things away.
Shit.
Yeah, that, that reminds me of the whole concept of royalty.
Or as queer entitlement, as queer and the olden days and, and, and
Britain, especially, where some individual would help out prints, whatever,
whatever he's face, and with some sort of problem.
And the prints would reward them by giving them or making them lords such and such.
And the title would pass down from son to son to son to son to son.
And generations on, they would still be reaping the rewards from that one act.
This is the same sort of thing.
It's the thing that people are signed up and, you know, they're entitled to
feel entitled to reap the rewards from stuff that was in the 1940s, the 1950s.
They're the same idea.
It's the exact same idea where the modern thing is you work for your living.
You keep gigging, you keep playing, you tour, you keep producing new stuff.
That's how you make, make a living, essentially.
Absolutely agree with you on that one.
Celebrityism is definitely the modern nobility.
No, I would argue that it isn't celebrity.
It is product based on, you know, a sold, a sold brand or marketing tool, such as
Mickey Mouse.
Let's go back to Disney, you know, that what, what this website is an exact
perfect example of what Disney's trying to do.
They want entitlement forever for their little Lord Mickey Mouse, you know,
they want that thing to pay off forever.
They want, you know, generations of people to grow up understanding that they can,
you know, that this is Disney and that's part of the Disney market.
They don't want somebody else taking a Disney image and start making money off of it
and maybe breaking the concentration or breaking the focus away from Disney,
saying, oh, I can get Mickey Mouse content from somebody else.
Yeah, yeah.
See, what annoys me, especially with the music industry, but I mean,
I suppose the movie industry as well is they keep, to try and justify all of this,
is they keep saying that art, it's somehow it's artful to make new stuff in the art
must exist in the people should pay for art and whatever.
That's box.
That's absolutely boxed.
Yeah, so let's go to the man who made the cave painting two million years ago.
Because, because I mean, look at it now, all you've got now is a vast majority of,
I mean, talking about production movies, rather than independence, it's all remakes.
It's all sequels prequels.
It's all stuff that's based on existing franchises.
And even then, they don't even pay people who are creative.
I mean, you remember a story about the dude that played Darth Vader and the term of the Jedi?
Even now, when he gets his royalty checks, they say, oh, sorry about that.
But maybe the sex most profitable movie of all time, but we're still not making a profit.
So we can't pay you a bean.
Sorry about that.
Maybe next year, you know, it's Barlux, absolutely, Barlux.
I mean, all they do is remake stuff.
All they do is flanchise stuff.
Percentages of so-called movie profits, that is the oldest scam in Hollywood.
That's been going on for decades and decades.
I mean, that went back on during the, you know, the golden days, you know,
where a big, you know, a big movie star would sign, you know, get a very small salary
or a very small fee for the act, but get a nice percentage of the profits.
And then on paper, they can prove that it never made a dime.
You know, it never just never made any money whatsoever.
And they've been doing that forever.
And I don't think Hollywood is the only place where that half by any means.
I'm sure the record labels do the exact same thing.
I wanted to get a bit back to the original point that I do think that there is money.
And I do think it's sustainable, kind of full-time living for artists that will be ongoing.
I think there's going to be a nice equilibrium where discovery services will be much more
word of mouth through things like Twitter or Google Plus and Facebook.
And people will discover cool things.
And people who are doing good things will get recognised and get paid.
And if you want to look more into, like, some of the more, like,
business-y kind of facts and figures look into things like the long tail is a big thing to look up.
But not only that, I think what really offsets the long tail is reading a book
like everything you ever wanted to know about the music business.
It's a book that's probably available at your local library.
That in and of itself will give a better perspective for musicians to know why things
are the way they are in the music industry and where actual money flows and why.
And in there, you can see that there is a niche, that there is a upper-middle class lifestyle
that will be available to people, to artists, that maybe 20% of them would have made millions of dollars
and will only make $100 or $200,000 a year.
And maybe 20% of those would have never even been in the music industry at all.
And then there's the working class that would have made 40 or 50,000 that night be able to elevate to 100,000.
And we won't see the mega-million artists in the quantity that we have over the years.
That would be great.
I've got... I'm speaking from as a person who has actively researched and studied and worked really hard
on learning about what it would take to have a successful independent album.
So... Don't take it.
I'm not saying an expert, but, you know, I say it would...
I'm not denying what you're telling. I agree.
I've done a lot of research.
And don't take me for a guy who doesn't think that what you're saying is true.
I hope to God you're right, I'm just a pessimist.
Nothing ever goes...
Well, I mean, under this paradigm, something like an 80s hair band could never come into existence
because there is no talent there.
And I don't think there's a bad thing about that.
No, no, it's a good thing.
I'm just saying, I'm just saying.
I'm not shedding any tears.
I'm just saying that things can...
You know, the type of music that we're going to be seeing in the future.
We're not going to see anything like the Beatles again.
That it becomes a cultural phenomenon.
We'll, you know, under this...
If this holds true is what I'm saying.
We'll only see things that will influence certain subcategories of consumers.
You know, people who are, you know, they find their niche.
And in that niche, they're...
You know, they're going to have superstars,
so people that we love.
And maybe those superstars, because the niche is so small, are only making a comfortable living.
They're not multi-multimillionaires that are influencing our entire culture.
Culture is around the world.
Hey, hey, hey, food.
Hey, let me ask this.
You have a clubhouse here.
Why are we basically unixed?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, man.
Basing success on how much somebody makes.
Right.
Especially us.
I think we do.
Because there are a lot of us here who are producing content that we're not getting paid for.
And if we had a choice, we'd like to make some money off of it.
I don't want to be a millionaire, right?
But I wouldn't mind making a few dollars off of Eddie Kay.
I can tell you that right now.
It wouldn't hurt me at all.
You know, I can simply use it.
I think you're not a success because you're not making any money.
No, I'm saying I'm poor because I'm not making any money.
Artistically, artistically, I think I'm doing fine.
You know, I'm doing what I want to do artistically, but I'm not making any money off of it.
And it still takes my time.
The only thing that matters to any human being.
And you can talk about money and you can talk about your religion.
You can talk about anything.
The only thing that matters to me.
You or anybody else on this earth is time because that is the only thing.
The only thing you can never get back after you've spent it.
I think there's a difference here because I think there's a difference here is that with the executives,
the people who are in charge of the recording industry,
of all the various labels that we would recognise worldwide.
There's, they have a previous history of top 10 artists,
whether it's Barry or the Beatles or Elton John or whatever.
And they hand, they hand them out as carrots.
They want the next generation.
They want to find the next Elton John, the next Elvis Presley, the next Beatles,
the next Stones, the next Zettelon, the next.
Whatever the money-making thing is, they want to hand that out as the next,
the carrot on the stick to be the next thing.
And I think those days are well untrurally got out to say you could be this.
It's like the National Lottery adverts.
It could be you.
It's not going to be you that buys the ticket for a dollar or a pound or whatever.
And one's five million dollars on the lottery.
It could be you, but it's not going to be you.
The point is, they keep holding it out as the incentive and the target as well.
I mean, bear in mind, capitalism is supposed to be about the targets you make more than you did last year.
So if last year you had Elton John making X amount of millions,
you're supposed to be a success.
You're supposed to have something else that makes more than that the following year.
And that's just not going to be the case.
Times have changed and that's just not going to be the case.
Now you can make a perfectly good loving.
But you're never going to be anywhere near class.
That has caught our success on quote by the big names.
And that couldn't happen too soon because to tell you the truth,
I think the music industry overall is stale.
And I'm actually welcoming the potential for truly creative bands who strike out on their own
because this is going to give us a different take on things.
And you're right.
It's always been about the cookie cutter bands.
Here's the next rolling stones.
Here's the next kinks.
Why?
Why can't they be their own identity?
And that's what I really look for in music these days.
And that's why I think that with a lot of the creative commons music that is out there now,
I think that there's a lot of hope.
And I can't wait for the large record companies to just finally die.
I would love it now.
Here he is.
I wanted to respond to lost and Brooks.
Not respond, but say this as a point.
Okay.
I love that.
Okay.
I love it.
I really do.
I have $10 that I want to give you.
How do I do that?
Yeah.
I echo that sentiment.
Yeah.
Do you have a donate button lost?
Lost and Brooks.
I was trying to ask.
I don't know if you heard me try to ask it.
I think that's a no.
He's not offended.
I mean, I'm being honest.
He's scrambling to create a flatter account right now and then put it on the web page.
And then claim that it's been there all along.
All right.
Well, in the vein of selfless promotion,
you can pay, you can paypal me at pipeline music at gmail.com.
I have a flatter account.
It's available on open source musician dot lipson dot com.
And I even have a tip the web account.
So, but I do have, you know,
I do want to support things that I think are cool.
And you know, we've talked a lot about what will other people do?
Okay.
And I think it's reflected in what we will, what will we do?
And I honestly do.
I have ten dollars that I would like to give last in Bronx.
I just, I just want to know how I do that.
And how others who enjoy Eddie Kay like to do that.
You know, I think the more than I think grows,
the more that artists and their fans realize they don't need them at all, man.
They can get together and they can support the people.
They can go direct to the source and they can repay the source.
The source can respond directly to them.
And I think that's a good thing.
Unfortunately, the RIAA and the MPAA and other organizations like that
feel freaked the fuck out by that whole concept
because they are the middle man.
And they can't, they can't, can't exist.
They don't exist.
If there's not both sides to rip off.
And the irony of it all is the money that they've taken from people
in their lawsuits have not one dime to any musician.
There's nothing ironic about that at all.
We never expected them to get that money.
I saw, I saw actually a Richard Stallman speech strangely enough
about that issue of, hey, I have money.
I want to give it to you.
How can I get it to you?
And the premise he really kind of went,
he went into the artistic matters as well as the software matters and saying,
like people need to put on their sites and stuff like that.
Little buttons that say, hey, give me a dollar.
Give me two dollars.
Give me ten dollars.
Whatever. Subscribe to me.
Give me ten dollars every month.
Whatever.
There needs to be a direct to the artist or whatever method of supporting
the things that we like.
And I think that is a big game changer, actually.
Since we're obviously into the drinking portion of the show,
I would like to raise my glass to Richard Stallman.
I really do believe he's a great man.
He's done great things for this art and he's leaving it a better place
than he found it for what he's done.
I would echo that as well and say,
I don't agree with all of Richard Stallman,
what he says and what he does.
But yeah, on the whole,
it is well worth.
Well worth raising glass too.
I would echo that.
Yeah, but this is where, at this point,
you'd raise your glass to anything.
And your point is?
I guess I don't have one.
I'll put the top of the head.
I wrote a blog post once that basically could be summed up
in my opinion of Richard Stallman is there.
I don't agree with everything Richard Stallman says,
but I'm very glad that a guy like him exists.
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, I was going to say a lot of what Richard Stallman says.
I mean, sometimes he does say things are a bit divisive.
But on the whole,
he is totally on the money.
It really is.
You know, the hearts off to the guy he really is eat.
And the thing is a lot of people walk the walk.
I've talked to talk.
They don't walk the walk.
I can fully believe he walks the walk.
He he walks.
He lives what he says.
A lot of people,
there's very, very few people on this planet.
You could say that about.
He really does walk.
He lives what he pretends.
Yeah, it's exactly what I was going to say.
That's a web.
I mean, I think it's important and really,
yeah, it's important that there is a person walking the walk
to represent that.
Yes, this is this is something that he believes in.
I mean, that's a powerful statement.
And even if we come close to that kind of dedication,
then we're probably doing all right.
It's no small thing.
Either lots and lots of people claim to walk the walk and don't realize
when they don't.
And I think RMS is,
he's very aware that he's walking the walk.
And he does it intentionally.
He's, he's saying a great example.
I mean, foot eating be damned.
He's a great man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the things when you say about free software, I mean,
I don't run a free software distribution.
I run crunch-bang, run mint,
or used to run mint, which is as far from, I mean,
you never see RMS running Linux Mint because it comes with Java
and it comes with Flash and whatever.
And I mean, I install these regardless of what I run.
I install things like Flash in that anyway, MP3 anyway.
Yeah, RMS would never do that.
He would just, there's no way in hell he would ever do that.
So he would never run type of distribution that I would run.
But the point is he does actually do what he says he does.
And that speaks, that really does speak volumes.
I mean, when, when you're talking about things like,
well, I can do without Flash.
That means I do without YouTube,
which means when I'm bored for me,
when it means when I'm bored and I'm thinking,
oh, a tune comes to mind that I've not thought about for 20 years.
Like, oh, I could listen to that.
I would just go on YouTube and check it there.
Well, RMS couldn't do that because he doesn't have Flash.
So it's things like that.
I mean, the, the norm of today's internet life involves some sort
of proprietary stuff, whether it's graphics cards,
sound cards, wireless cards, or even Flash.
He willingly does without that because of his principle.
And you've, you've really got to admire that.
I mean, for all everything else, you've got to admire that.
I know what I don't want.
And that's what I had with Windows before I found Linux.
And I know what I really deep down want.
And that's what Richard Stalman's vision is.
The problem is, I'm not the kind of guy that's going to do what it takes
to be a Richard Stalman.
So I'm grateful that Richard Stalman exists because he moves the ball
closer to the end zone for me.
He really does.
Wow, what a profound point.
Well done.
Yeah, I mean, just curious.
Has anybody mentioned BST in the last couple of hours?
I mentioned Unix earlier.
Yeah, yeah, Unix.
I hear you, but, you know, that covers a proprietary
connotation, but BSTs in particular.
Hey, Red.
Can I, can I, can I, before we change the subject,
can I get to one more point up and?
Of course.
We will definitely come back to Unix.
And you will have center stage, because, because we need that.
But I, I want to ask, as far as, I don't want to see supporting
these, the, the creators that you're a fan of, but at least in
so far as compensating them.
Do you think that what we're doing here today,
putting out a podcast, putting out shows the way that we do?
Is that any kind of compensation to the culture that we're trying
to support?
Because I, for one, can't do what financially.
You could argue, you could argue that the more attention you draw
to a particular project.
I mean, on, on Crivens, I was singing the praises of UM player
as a, as a movie player.
And, funnily enough, after, as I was singing the praises of UM
player, I got so pissed off with it, with the bugs in it, that I moved,
I moved to VLC, which I never thought I would do.
But the point was, if, if, for example, I was really popular,
and a lot of people heard the word that I was putting out,
the UM player is fantastic.
They've drew a lot of people to UM player.
Then, what does that mean?
You know what, it doesn't really benefit them in any way.
It costs them more bandwidth to download the, to tell out people
to download the software.
It produces more bug reports for them, or in theory makes them better
because they can address that.
It draws more reviews, which could be negative because of the bugs
there, right?
It causes a lot more things than maybe possibly than it's worth.
I mean, that's maybe a by the example, but you know what I mean?
Sorry, I was just going to say, I think, you know,
Poke, as you say, that, that is the whole point of HPR isn't it?
I mean, you know, we all benefit from the shows.
And so, everyone in theory contributes as well.
And, you know, therefore, produces, you know, content themselves
making the whole cycle continue.
But on a larger scale, I think that's also, you know, I would say that,
yeah, doing something, if you're putting something out there, you know,
one can argue that it could work on a much larger scale in that, yeah,
musicians have content to listen to because they've got to get
entertainment from somewhere too.
And they might listen to podcasts or whatever.
So, it's a big circle, I think.
I think somebody said there also wouldn't be able to sleep at night anymore.
There's a lot more ways to contribute to the whole concept than just money as well.
We were just concentrating on financial.
There's a lot more ways in terms of code and documentation in that work
and even helping out in forums, that type of thing.
And even spreading the word, you know, there's a lot more ways than just financial.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, that's part of the ecosystem that we're trying to create.
A participant, a participatory culture rather than a consumer culture
where all you do is buy, consume, you don't understand anything that you're doing.
But you're there with the money to throw at the issue every, every moment.
And when something goes wrong, you got more money, hopefully to throw,
so that someone can come fix it for you.
You know, that's just so blatantly mind-numbed,
whereas something where people are contributing to something,
whether it's monetarily or they're artistic talent or they're programming code,
that's powerful and that's different.
Well, I mean, if you're talking about other things other than financial,
you're actually growing the product as well.
If you're creating tutorials and how to use something,
you're making that product more valuable because people are looking at that and going,
right, I can download this, but I might not know how to run it,
how to use it in such and such a way,
you're adding that extra layer into the project.
So you're increasing the value of the project,
even although you've not spent a bean on the project.
Yeah, exactly.
But realistically, I'm providing a distraction.
I'm not putting out tutorials and how to use for any puppy.
I would say this.
Linux podcasts on the whole probably win Linux more users
than most of the effort that's put into what we are the marketing arm of Linux.
Oh, man, that's great.
It's like a great point.
It's just a quick mention here.
Well, yeah, but that's a great point.
But while some of us might not have the $10 to kick that project,
a following and a voice to say, hey, look,
so holidays, not a lot of people have the money to kick to a project.
I get that.
But for those of you who do,
if you were going to go buy another latte,
just skip lattes for this week,
kick 10 bucks to your favorite open source project.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Oh, sorry.
Did you say skip coffee this week?
Yeah.
I don't like the sound of that.
I've maybe skipping with your beer or something.
How about that, pal?
No, clatu.
He said skip buying it from Starbucks.
Go make your own.
He didn't say Starbucks.
I heard latte.
Right.
Skip buying your latte from Starbucks.
Make a lot of.
I hear Starbucks.
If you're saying Starbucks.
I've got to pick my message.
You might call us a Starbucks.
Okay.
Don't give your money to an evil stupid corporation.
Here here.
For a week.
No, a good good point.
I'm sorry.
I derailed you.
But yes, I mean Starbucks support sofa bill.
The problem.
Oh, yeah, but alternatively to steal the coffee.
There you go.
That's our that's our our media arms attempted.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's our feeble.
Our feeble.
That's our.
But I really like where you're going with that pipe, man.
Because you're.
And strangely, I literally never occurred to me that this is the case.
But yeah, Linux podcasting.
I mean, for the amount of effort that people are putting into Linux podcast,
especially like the positive ones and the stuff that.
You know, that show that Linux users are cool and normal and they're producing stuff.
And they're excited about it.
And they're creative.
You know, I mean, the amount of effort that goes into that.
It's like a marketing branch.
It's it's we don't have, you know, Linux.
The the concept doesn't have a million dollars to put into a into a fancy advertising.
But here's this great content that people are putting out.
People are hearing about this other way of computing.
They get excited about it.
And they learned that they can get help to implement it.
And and then they start adopting Linux and BSD.
I'm glad you say that what we're doing is getting out into the greater world.
Because sometimes it feels like we're just talking to each other.
Which is fine with me.
I love talking to each other.
I think, you know, everybody we're talking to is great people.
But it's it's comforting in in a way to know that it's getting out
and doing some good for something that we all believe in.
I want to jump in right here.
Speaking of getting stuff out.
How do y'all get your stuff out other than just one website?
Poor health.
Do you go to get your stuff?
Poor health.
I'm limited to just going to your website.
I really thought I got to get.
Oh, no, I'm sorry.
I thought we had a different conversation.
We were yeah, you guys talked to other really bad.
And I don't think either of you knew it.
Cobra too.
Can you repeat that so we can hear what you just said?
I'm sorry.
I was just wondering like how do you get your content out to other people?
Am I just limited to go into your website?
Is there more than one place I can go and get it?
Is there like a central location?
Before I can just go and download lost and brought to stuff?
Listen to an album from guitar man or, you know, just read some book that somebody wrote.
There's always vivid.com where you can go with the latest porn movie with the latest musical
stylics in the background of gangbang horse, whatever.
And yeah, I know that in SF, it's a wee talk.
I think thank you this a lot for pulling off my joke where I failed.
Glad you does that for me all the time.
Every time I tell a joke that fails.
Glad to fix it up in a month later tells it to raucous applause.
Yeah, but that's not, yeah, that's not considered helping you.
That's that's stealing your content.
For which I apologize.
You have better timing.
It's a copyright infringement.
Yeah.
Intellectual property.
Yeah.
Cobra too.
I have a question for you.
Is that directed to anybody?
I think.
Every answer.
Yeah, I think that's one of the things where I mean, as much as the whole self-producing.
The whole concept of self-production is absolutely fantastic.
Is anyone could get on and write up an e-book, you know, create an album, create a documentary,
create whatever it is, create music, whatever it is, they can do that.
The thing they don't have is the distribution network.
That is where the traditional industry have built all that up and so on all that up.
Because people hear about new music through music channels.
They hear about new music through the radio stations.
They see new movies in the theater.
The theater don't do anything that's independent.
All they do is stuff that comes from their own network.
That's the distribution network is absolutely huge.
And that's something that cannot be underestimated.
You can do everything else.
You can create as real good quality stuff as you want and your industry.
But you don't have the distribution network because the way that they get people interested in any new stuff,
they have the traditional industries have that entirely so thrown up.
Well, actually, that's not necessarily true.
I think that, as I mentioned before, I think a really savvy person can make complete use of social networks.
Whether it's, you know, the hideous Facebook or Google Plus, I mean,
people are always being added every day.
I mean, you must get easily 20, 30 emails for people you don't even know that are adding you.
And I think that if somebody who has his stuff together,
they can easily market to literally around the globe in a quarter of the time with a quarter of the effort.
I think if you put out good mountain and you do so consistently over a given period of time
that your audience snowballs, even without that marketing brand,
now it may not be exponential growth, but I don't think it's linear either.
That's true.
I mean, I would say that there's a limit to that.
There's what the major industries class is successful is not what's realistic.
There's never going to be another.
I mean, there's going back to an earlier point.
There's never going to be another Elton John.
There's never going to be another Beatles and other stones.
The industry has moved completely on.
Even the biggest artists of today, we're never going to get to that.
So I don't know if that's true, but then it's not bad either.
I want to talk about Cobra's questions.
Yeah, yeah.
Is that okay?
You go personally.
I got an answer to you.
To get roughly back to that, there isn't necessarily a canonical place you can go to
and get all the cool free stuff that's out there.
Can I go?
Boo has.
I've been to it.
Boo has.
It's a word.
It's a word before as a company.
And you go.
Maybe alone.
But I would say that I personally have in the last couple months been putting out new audio releases
in my Google Plus stream.
I know.
I don't want to take a big deal for that, but it's convenient for me.
And I can copy and paste and links work really well in it.
If you want to follow the open source musician podcast has their Google Plus stream.
And I post audio that has not only that is not only creative comments and released freely,
but is also produced using Linux and open source software.
So that's one place to go.
The other thing I'd like to say is that somewhere out there is a guy.
Thank you.
I don't have a lot of money and I really love free software and I wish I could find a way to give back.
And to you, kind sir, I would say if you can find a good way of aggregating a dissimilar type of content.
Say a group of podcasts with a group of free music releases with independently produced video on Linux.
And some of the other cool stuff that's coming out of the community, then do it.
That's a great idea.
Yeah, that's a really good idea.
I'm not saying I know how, but I'm already.
So there's somebody else out there.
I know the biggest barrier.
Go ahead.
And it is politics.
You have to do a thing like that in an apolitical way.
Because otherwise there's this giant machine working against us all whose only goal is to divide us so that they can conquer us.
And you have to do that in a way that politics doesn't get in the middle.
Wait, sorry to find politics.
I'm not quite following you.
I don't think.
We can boil it down to left and right, Democrat, Republican, liberal.
Oh, so you're talking about literal politics, like governmental.
Oh, okay.
Yes, that is a barrier to entry for any, any conservative thinker when you're talking about the arts, they have a hard.
We, because I'm a very conservative thinker, we have a hard time coming into a forum that is art centric.
And it's that barrier is that people don't want to hear what we have to say.
They don't want to hear what we, the way that we think.
Even though we may agree on a vast number of things.
Okay.
Clot 2, you're asking about a bit defiant politics.
There's a quote that I read on the internet somewhere.
I mean, the internet is, it must be true.
It's on the internet.
There's politics comes from two words.
Paulie, meaning many and text, meaning blood-sucking insets.
Go, go, go.
And so to answer my answer anyway, for Cobra 2's question, is there a place to get all of these things in one place?
I think that's what hacker media was supposed to be.
It was a place that all these things could come together.
It doesn't seem to have done that.
It seems to, maybe from my perspective, anyway, it seems like it's kind of withering on the vine.
But I bet it could be revived if there was someone who could get excited about it and know how to do it, just like HPR was revived when Ken jumped in a year or so ago.
And as you can see from what Ken did, to do with things like that is a big job, because he's been working at it for a year.
And we're just now getting to the point where we're trying to rally the people to take over for Ken.
We want the community to do what Ken's been doing and keep HPR, not just alive, but I mean really vibrant.
And maybe hacker media is in the same state and needs the same kind of jump start.
So that was going to be my answer to Cobra 2.
I think there's a difference between making a huge fortune and being successful in making a living out of it.
I think a lot of people who are quite happy to make a living out of doing something.
But they'll never be huge, huge monthly billion dollar artists.
Whatever field they're in, but they're quite happy to make a living out of it.
Yeah, it's a huge delay. He said it an hour ago.
There's back, I mean, in regards to what pipe man and Poke said, I like the ideas of these sort of aggregate places.
They do seem efficient, but I'm just going to kind of, I guess, be the one not to go down that path and say, I don't think there are central places to find all the artwork.
And I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing in the same way.
I guess that software free software seems to have a lot of choices.
I think that independent artists, you kind of have to look for it.
You want to follow one of the artists and kind of get to know them and find out where they have all their stuff.
And you find the good stuff that way, at least that's been my methodology.
I've done, I think, pretty well with it.
And I just don't know because to me in the arts, a one central place that aggregates a whole bunch of stuff is either going to have like just stuff that the couple of curators happened to deem being good enough for their prestigious site, their aggregate site, or it's completely open forum.
And you really end up having to dig through it anyway, like kind of archive org, some of the independent stuff that's up there. Some of it's really great. Some of it's just like, why is this here?
So I don't know, I have, I kind of feel like the divergence and the sort of multiple sources for independent art.
I happen to kind of think that's a good thing because then I can walk in on one or two people that I like and sort of follow them and then find more people that like them and then go down and find out what they're doing.
And you kind of get into this kind of get the feel of the lay of the land without having to just go to one super store.
I guess I think that any central repository like that that actually worked would become a system that we have now where the new guys and the small guys would just become noise.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's what I'm saying.
I guess what I what I took from that is that what we do isn't really just about content is that we are a community.
And if you want to find the cool content, you got to get with the community.
Yes, and again, it's not yes, it's not enough to for it to be dead.
You have to be an active participant. You got to join a chat room.
You got to talk to other people. You got to you got to become part of it because that's how we got into it. That's the way it was.
The mainstream stuff as well is as I don't know I'll probably repeat myself of arm.
It's due to the alcohol. Blame the alcohol. Don't blame me. Yeah, I know.
Yeah, just.
Yeah.
The thing is, I mean, when when a major distributor, whether it's movies, music or whatever format is, they look at things.
They look at various things and see if it's, they estimate whether it's going to make X amount of money or not.
And if it is, they'll do it and if it's not, they don't.
And if it's not, it might make a lot of money, but it's not quite enough to justify to break their, their levels to say,
oh, it's profitable. Therefore, we should do it.
So, I mean, there's plenty of stuff that the only stuff you hear or you see is the mainstream, the safe stuff that you see.
And there's a whole wide wide river of stuff that's being produced that's good enough that's certainly making money for people.
Certainly popular enough, but it doesn't quite meet those standards.
So, that's another sort of thing to keep in mind. I mean, the independent mindset is,
there was keeps that in mind, you know, it keeps, it keeps getting that, that, and focus.
Well, the main reason I brought up the question was I had an idea of how to centralize or somewhat centralized slash aggregate creative comments media.
Yay!
I think this is going to point back to Torrance.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, this is, this is a good idea.
I didn't see it coming.
No, this is a good idea. It is.
It's a great idea.
It's a great idea, but I'm still going to stick to my guns and say that, I mean, I don't think, I think it's a good idea, but I don't think it's a superstar model either, which is good.
No, no, and it's also not a central aggregation place. It's just a repository.
Yeah.
Good, good point. I like it.
A book repository.
Very similar. He's talking about a concept. Over to you. Why don't you explain it?
Yes.
Well, I'll try and explain, but my connection gets really, really fuzzy and if you all break up a lot, so I can't hardly hear you sometimes.
But just remember to just remember to lift off the push to talk when you inhale and take care of the whole bucket.
Yeah.
Oh, am I in somebody's buffer or something?
No, no, I'm just saying if you remember to lay off the key up, you know, then it won't do it as badly. I think it's a guess.
But go ahead.
Well, I'll try to anyways.
So like you have a torrent site that has just everything that is creative commons anything that anybody ever put out under creative commons license.
There's a torrent for it.
You have a place where you can index all the torrents and search through everything by anybody and users would come along and would go through and tagged like each individual torrent or group or whatever.
To allow other users to assign, you know, different types of groups of whatnot together and allow like just somebody to stumble across the site and go, hey, I'm looking for X and they type in X into the search bar and they get a list of similar artists or similar content.
And it would have this site would have pretty much everything creative commons video, whatever, whatever somebody can see.
This is a tracker. It's a torrent trigger.
Essentially, but the tracker would be a private style tracker where nobody could just add whatever torrent they wanted to would have to be approved.
Right. Agreed. I thought somebody was working on this.
Yeah, cover two and the drunk guy.
Oh, it all makes sense now.
Which drunk guy.
Yeah, that would be me.
It sounds like he's drunk when he sober.
So does this torrent tracker run on Unix?
It can. I had it running on free BSD.
BSD.
How come it's not GNU BSD?
Ouch.
Was that it? That was the mention of BSD. That's that's that's what you wanted us to do. Unix Clubhouse. You didn't have anything to say.
Yeah. Yeah. That's a matter of fact. That's exactly what I want.
Thank you for trolling us. We fell into your trap.
You know something.
You know something BSD sounds like STD. I don't know why I got the BS in Tijuana.
You know, a little bit a little bit of penicillin clear it right up.
Did you get it from something called the basket?
Is that what the B stands for?
Yeah. Yeah.
Over to. Can you. Did you name your website? Did you did you say the name your website?
Oh, no. It doesn't have a name. It doesn't exist. It's a project that I'm working on.
Oh, sweet. It's okay. So how can people help you or are you not asking for help at this time?
If you know PHP, you could help out a lot or C++ to help modify the tracker.
How can they get in touch with that?
I can toss a link in IRC of just like some concepts that I have.
Okay. And if you got a way to get into it.
Well, I would say I see over to all the time in all cast planet on the IRC other free node IRC network.
Yeah, that probably is a good way.
I don't want free node 24 seven.
Yeah, I've just put it cut in here and say that the CC tracker thing was initially my idea.
But Cobra 2 has been absolutely phenomenal in taking it on.
I've had too many things in my mind and I've not already done anything with it.
But Cobra 2 has been absolutely fantastic in taking it on.
And it's still alive, still going.
But he's a guy that's doing the coding.
So whatever he says on the technical side goes.
Cool. I think it's a fantastic idea.
And I, you know, best luck to you.
Well, the project for me was just to teach myself PHP.
And that was the whole idea.
But it kind of evolved into me needing to know more than just PHP to do what I wanted to do.
I think I was, I think it was pretty hopped up on PHP when I got that BSD and Tijuana.
It's a, it's a noble way to learn PHP. I'll give you that.
Nothing. I got nothing for that. Nothing.
No, you got, you got mental recognition from me.
There was a chuckle.
I just didn't press to talk to chuckle.
I didn't press to talk.
What is mental?
The one problem with push to talk is that you have to remember to hit it to laugh.
Yeah, you're, oh, I just chuckled and I didn't press to chuckle.
So now I need the press to chuckle so that I can fake a chuckle, you know, so.
I just felt like my joke.
My jokes died.
I feel that success.
Well, I've mission has success.
There you go.
Hey, man, don't, don't release a DVD of your stand up yet.
Don't quit your day job.
But you know, you're getting there.
Open Mike Knight's little maybe improv here and there.
All right, I'll clean up the egg.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a difference.
I might want to point this out just for people who are curious.
There's a difference between mental recognition and mental recognition.
One is a sort of mint flavor thing and the other is like a mind thing.
I like them both.
I appreciate both of them.
If you want to send them to me.
Those are mental.
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