Episode: 435
Title: HPR0435: Lightweight Apps: Enlightenment, Part 2
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0435/hpr0435.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-07 20:31:34

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It's a crap too. It's about 2 a.m. or something. We're standing outside. It's not too.
No, it's not too. It's 3.20. It's actually 3.20 a.m. Standing outside the hotel at the
Southeast Linux Fest. And I'm talking again with Brian Smith. And Brian likes E. So which
version of E. Do you like best right now? I love E. 17. It's what I'm currently running.
It's alpha. There is no specific release. And it changes when they put something up
to CBS. Mm-hmm. Damn. It's, you know, it's it's changed. So you run it off
as like out of there. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I check it out. I check it out from
that's the end. And I build every every time I install I have made my own depth. When
E. 17 is a is a is a moving target right now. So what I do is I just check it out from
SBN for building, you know, or hardcore like this. So what I mean, like why do you like
E. What? What? I mean, you're you seem pretty excited about what what about it? Do you
like E. 17 is the most modular window manager out there? Yeah. Period. There is the there
are none. And you can make E. 17 is minimal for as as as as intensive as you want to see
that's what I that's what I like about you can make it you hear in the mood for fluxbox
just pair down E. It's well at least in my opinion. What I say it is the same feeling.
Well now now and now and yeah, fluxbox is very sexy, but sexy is that you can on
commodity hardware. You can you can do a lot of of you know visualization effects and you
know have a animated desktop flip and things that you know and and and everything's a module
in the it's totally module now. So if you want to dock, bam, you load our bar. Right. You know,
it would yeah or if you want a dock that looks like the OSX OSX docs that scrolls and it does
in large. Yeah. Yeah. Run I task. You know, it's it's it's it's it's so forward moving that
as far as development, no one else is keeping up with the pace that a restaurant
may want to delete developer. Yeah. Of E. 17 and I mean it's just it's as far as systems
administration. I I nothing can touch you. Yeah. Nothing can touch you. For a speed wise and
and I don't use a key. I don't use a mouse generally when I when I run these things. I just
have the keyboard in my lap and I can get to everything I need right there. Yeah. Quick.
Okay. So here's a question or a proposal is um you know people complain about oh it's not
released yet. It's not released. Is that just I mean does that matter? It doesn't matter at all
because uh if you download the yellow dog Linux it's running for the PS3. It's running
E. 17. If you got one of those uh GPCs from Walmart. Yeah. It was running E. 17. If you get
open moco it's running E. 17. Right. It doesn't it is so mature. Yeah. It's it's in a late alpha
state and uh so that's a rash demand. I'll tell you. His it's still alpha. It's still alpha. Right.
But you got tons of people who are running it every day. Yeah. And the point commercial solutions.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the thing is is that if if it's good enough to uh sell boxes in Walmart
and just uh put on open moco. Yeah. Then uh I'll tell you what and these are the devices that are
being sold to people then it's good enough for me to run on my desk. Yeah. I mean it's released.
Yeah. I mean it's it's it's the only the only thing is there are a lot of improvements. There's
all. Exactly. E. Fee is which is um a physics library. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. And
and I tell you what now is that this stuff going on in the background uh like those animations in
the background. Is that what any of that or not? No. No. No. That's not something totally different.
That's actually what's what's so cool about that and that the theme. The theme language is uh is
is written in Edge, E-D-J-E, and uh, it is so easy, really. I mean, it's so easy. And so,
so the thing is, is that each, every, everything, every background, it's, it turns it to, uh,
into, uh, actual, uh, Edge file. Well, uh, okay. So, uh, E-D-J file. So, um, you get the desktop,
uh, a wallpaper, and then, you know, as soon as you click apply, it turns it into that file
for you, and you can go in and, uh, E-D-J-E, extract it, and uh, D-E-C-C, and it'll, uh, extract the
file, and all, all of the, uh, it'll have, uh, all of the files you need to edit for programming,
and all of the JPEGs in there. Uh-huh. Everything. So, you just go any, so I want to change colors?
No. Bam. Oh, yeah. And then, you got guys who have certain clocks. You got a digital
clock, you can just grab a snippet code through it in there. Bam. You know, and so, it's, um,
it's, it is so user-friendly as well as, um, the whole thing of it still being in development
means nothing. It, I tell you like this, uh, Sony. For Sony to, I'm, it's not official that Sony
backs E-17, but, right, we know. Everyone in e-community knows that, you know, it's, they,
they've got a very, they got a vested interest in it. Yes. So, I mean, uh, it's, uh, it,
the development of it, I'm always, I'm, I'm doing, I'm always, uh, idling at least in the, uh,
in the, in the, in the e-development channel on a free note. So, you know, we, what's your screen
in? I'm Brian Stein. Okay. Brian Stein on, uh, on a, on a free note. So, you know, I'm,
I'm generally in, you know, plan, uh, I've been in there a couple of time in, in the e, I think it was
he does. Yeah, it is. Something else. Is there a user one or something or is it? Yeah, it is.
There's, uh, there's, there's, there's, there's e, um, that way, wait, there's two. There's, uh,
e-development, which is strictly for, for development. And there's, um, I think that's where I was,
because it was definitely people talking about stuff way beyond me. So, I just kind of hung out and
watched and then I left, you know, and then, and then there's also like, um, I don't even go in
that much. I can't remember, but it's like, uh, ee-eee. Probably need one madam or something.
Oh no, it's, it's like, uh, I can't, I can't remember the name right now. But, uh, it's, it's
quasi-longs. Like e-e, it's maybe how I can remember something, a user. But, um, yeah. Like I said,
it just, it, it being, it being in development means that the guys are constantly working on it.
You can have, yeah, yeah, yeah. When when you're going to check out, Oh yeah, no, you see
all the improvements it's like you get it's like you get a new features like
every time you you update and that is the biggest thing the biggest thing
you're seeing oh and then you know us talking to guys and they say oh well uh you
know uh um raster man did this or uh such and such uh did this and so you you
know you go on each and you bug test the stuff for these guys yep right away
because this is my bro this this is my is my window manager yeah so you know
where we go right in and you know we're helping these guys out and it's uh it's
it's a it will be the window manager of the future yeah no doubt yeah no doubt
it will yeah I love it I really do like it's so flexible and it's
progressive and it's flexible that's the biggest the big thing for us in is
having choice that's what we're all about we're all about okay I can run KDE
okay I can run DWM okay you know I can run and so it's it's just about and
in having Bible options not yeah yeah you know not just having crappy
options but having Bible options where you can do really cool things on us and
that's something that you have to be wary of I think a little bit in open
source for yourself or whatever there are some projects out there that
advertise what they want to be and they deliver what they're still trying to
attain you know whereas I mean in the case of like at least for me enlightenment
for sure and KDE for my two favorites they are advertising very much what
they're actually delivering like they tell you here's what we've got yeah you
know and you go there and they're right that's what they've got but in E17 I
think they've frankly undersell themselves you know oh big time yeah when I was
when like I said I was doing the article for E17 and I was
communicating with raster man lot and raster man will tell you it's alpha it's
alpha I'm like raster Siri I mean he said well that's the that is that is the way
I have to look at it that's what that way we do a lot more work on it then we
get our our first release candidate going and so the thing is is that as long
as he leans on guys and all the you know guys are or looking at it is
still an absolute we got to get it going we got to get it going but there are tons
of people running this thing you know it'll always it'll always meet
expectations because the base is already laid down right it's already it's the
base is already laid down and that is I mean as far as I can tell the base is stable
I mean yeah like it's it's very stable yeah the only thing the only thing is
sometimes you'll get crashes for margins that other people wrote because you
know it's over source so but now the browse I mean the the window manager won't
totally go down right you could get a click restart me I was gonna say I don't
believe I've ever had ee ee itself crash no I don't believe I've ever had that
but and and the thing the another good thing about it is that I don't the way the way
ee is in the sense of what we have now is a full-fledged window manager or it's
actually what it called desktop shell yeah but but now the thing is that when
you when you look at the development the development is done for the advanced
features just like animated icons yes in the in the in the menu bar yeah you know
so it's so a lot of the stuff is for the the really just when you when you have
animated backgrounds everything in ee can be an animation yeah and the thing
with the thing with edge as a it is it's just so it's such a sexy language so
and it's so easy to learn you just look at other code things I can do that yeah
you know and I mean and and and it's and and then also there's e-embedded and
e-embedded that's what I saw at scale I think it was whoa really and he had it
running on something yeah I met him in person restaurant man I told him I liked
it and that's all I really knew to say to him but yeah I saw that stuff and it was
cool it looked I didn't believe it was ee when it when I he was like that's
that's enlightenment oh yeah and I was like are you sure oh yeah and he's got it on
his no key I think yeah yeah he did on a couple of things I think it's it's
incredible yeah and then there are a lot of other applications for ee that are
various guys are built and it also rest man has made a media like a media yeah
I can't remember the name I mean it is so nice it is yeah he's actually coming
up with like native I guess native apps within yeah the environment I don't
know is it within the shell is that what you would say it's it's just like okay
you can you can do like a wrapper or for a pseudo right but no you actually you
know use system calls and and or this like and and write it in eat right
is it an edge you know so so the thing is is instead of just saying this is a
front-end you know pseudo right with it with it with a graphic interface then
you actually write the whole thing in edge instead of like I said it's making
a front-end so you know there's so much development on it that you always have
goodies you all you just always have goodies and you know you know like I said
the base is very solid and stable and once once each phase starts getting
worked in to a lot of other things it is just going to be crazy the thing is
the the way you know you got a good you got a good window manager or a good
product is that the lead developer the lead developer they keep pushing
backings because they want they want the next release to be just a slam dunk
yeah they wanted to be jam packed it's it's nothing just to have a window
manager that does things that other ones do right and a few other things that
they don't yeah they want to have one that that everything's in a great that
yeah you can run on commodity hardware yeah and actually down some I can't
use the same time yeah that is the thing to be able to have a 300-megahertz box
running you know running e17 you've got a dock down there you've got animations
you know you can have rain drops coming in you can have anime background and
things not taxing what's the weapon yeah so what's the slowest computer off
the top of your head that you've run six yeah I'm talking full and and this
this was this was early this was in 2000 and I say it was a 2007 and it was
the old HP box and 166 and I'm and this was old a much older release of v17
and I'm I mean the thing was just lazy it was when people talk about having
commodity PCs and and and recycling them and using them first this and that I
love I love KDE I know it's nice Katie's very mature but if you tried to
recycle PC and book KDE on it it's just not gonna have you like I run toasters
I run slow box yeah yeah box is that you generally and I and it's just I do it
just for the lust and the zeal of you know of actually pulling that all
those resources out of that box and then seeing what else I'm how much I'm
much RAM to use and how much swap is it going to use run this and so you know
and and I do kind of like a real not a a benchmark of it's I guess a
subjective bitch more because I'm just saying okay well I'm running this and I'm
running that and I got I'm for instance say I'll have I've got some screenshots of
me running like three different browsers I have a 12 different virtual windows
open and all of them before and and I mean I have like 30 something windows open
and the thing you'll be using and this is on a 700 megahertz deal as far
around 8,000 and got 512 megabytes around and I mean I'd have like 186
megabytes just sitting there yeah chilling you know and 512 for some of the
desktop environments that's like basically the minimum well 512 is is
is weak for E17 yeah yeah you got 512 I mean the 166 had like things like
32 megabytes the best the same box I was trying to use for a D and that's that
I was used for DNS or just DNS yeah yeah so the thing was is just that like I
said if if I want to be able to use this commodity hardware then I need to use
the browser that can scale down or up yeah at any point yeah oh I said a
browser window manager I keep saying browser but yeah window manager that can
scale down or up and E17 is it for me everything they've got a file manager
yes it's it's uh it's which which it still needs to mature a lot but yeah doing
it's doing things where if you have files in the amount of E can use you can
right click on it and bam it will automatically convert those files for you to a
format that you know E can digest a lot better right and then bam you know and
then like I said you can always extract that file and then go in and edit it
and change the changes totally yeah change it totally you know you know so you
can make the file manager that's a that's a module D bus extension is a module
yeah you got shadowing is a module yeah you got us I mean just every everything
from the uh they've got a thing called ibar which uh the ibar when you minimize
icons they were oh sorry ibox when you minimize icons they go in an
that's a module you've got shelves so a shelf is like a dock yeah so you can put a
shelf anywhere on the screen yeah around a perimeter put things in the
shelf you can put a clock module yeah you can put temperature sensor in the
shelf you can put something to scale to CPU in the shelf yeah yeah you can put
weather in the shelf before I uh wireless uh you know networking manager in the
show yeah you can put I mean it's just so many things you're at most use
application there you can yeah yeah and and you can put anything in it yeah yeah
anything you want to yeah anything it's very simple oh yeah I mean it's like
what other uh window manager or desktop environment is going to let you do
all that kind of stuff you know exactly exactly and and then you know you've
got the gadgets with the gadgets uh generally sit on the desktop and you can move
those around rearrange them all you want i'm the type of guy that uh I
generally use my desktop well you know the desktop when it's there when I first
open it up like some guys have uh you know you can have uh the animated
background you can have a clock in the background like
uh Rocksville uh Chris Tosh from here he actually made a background for
Eli knows with Eli that uh it was a church with a with in the clock on the
church the hands moved you know the hands actually moved on the clock so you
know it but now when I got my brows open I'm not gonna see that right you know
oh when I got other programs open I'm like yeah so yeah so I'm more
of a guy that I don't put icons on the desktop I put them in in a shell
yeah yeah you know and it's linking the windows so I have a space at the
bottom and a space at the top while I do space on the sides and put everything
that I need in there and then use the real estate in between yeah you know when um
it's just when when when I want to run like if if I try to run
16 to 12 virtual windows and uh in other window managers on a slowbox it's just uh
the box is slow because of the window manager right right now if I run you know
e17 which if you use a total minimum e17 and then you start adding things on to it he
say you know what see that's the thing is that you can benchmark it yourself and say right
yes I can throw what happens if I add this yeah exactly and then oh that
that killed it or that floated down beyond use so I'm gonna take that out
uh you yeah absolutely uh-huh that's exactly how I do it
top iostats you know and and keep sampling them
what do you think what do you think uh people I get the sense that people are a
little bit hesitant to try enlightenment or they they try it and they're like
turned off by it I think one of the problems is the default gold theme which
is really bad it's changed it has changed the default
oh must be something out of the uh out of the repot uh well actually yeah the theme
theme yes whatever yeah okay actually uh there's um the default theme is called um
elum oh okay oh yeah it's black it's sex oh it's the black and white one
it's it's it's black and it's got like like it looks like caviar it's like fish eggs nice
I mean you opened it up and you're like you know that's pretty cool it's uh yeah and it's
the default gold no that's that's that's not there okay so I haven't tried it out of the
CVS ever well uh I just get whatever default version is in whatever distra
happening so well I'll have to try it yeah oh yeah it's what what what you get in the
distraels is ages behind yeah yeah which which uh like and you got some guys who uh
who offer repos that are somewhat it's in a somewhat of a stage yeah I mean I usually I'm at
least in the the test or not the testing but the unstable version of whatever
refill I mean whatever distra I am running so I think I get all slightly more updated than normal
but not so much yeah so but yeah we're like I was saying what do you what do you think the the
problem is okay what's the presentation here okay these these are the drawbacks of enlightening
e17 the drawback is okay uh there is no universal repos so speak in a sense that uh one thing
that I'm planning on doing is uh what I've been planning on doing is for every distra
I plan on actually having a repo with a weekly and maybe a nightly build of e17 so you know
so everyone can have direct access to it and say you know what there are some problems with
this one and I'm gonna use this versus the other one on I use this and I use this release and
I like things better here blah blah blah so uh you know and that's that's we don't we don't have
that is the wiki is very thorough the wiki is is very thorough but a lot of users they just want
to they want to sample it they want to sample it they don't want to get the right they want to walk
to the beach yep put the feet in and say you know what that that wasn't bad instead of you know
having to actually carry sand to the beach right yeah put it down you know and then you know
so so the thing is with with each there is a sort of a learning curve that you may have to go
through with building it but there are guys who have packages out there like a one's called
uh Reesy e17 okay which is uh which is eat really easy e17 building it's a script that uh it
works on pretty much every distro when you run it and it'll pull in the packages building for
you very cool I don't deal all right that's cool and yeah you yeah you yeah you check you check that
out but uh and that that that is the thing the main thing for e17 is having the uh a repo that
is uh official yeah an official repo yeah yeah from you know well I think nightly bills or even
weekly bill tech I think that would be great yeah yeah yeah that would be really cool no no doubt
it would so you know it's uh it's it's it's it's that thing you know you know and and and people
look at and say I think you got to go out searching for one and then it's it's like it's kind of um
if you go in the wrong channel also in free note if you're getting that e2e developed channel
yeah hey I'll tell you what you're not getting you know you're not you're not getting much done
on the end of uh of help right no because the guys in there they're you know mechiest double horns
those are some of the other developers uh you know and and they're like uh they just they're
strictly talking tech yeah so you know and unless you go in disguise as a female they're not going
to help yeah I always help a female but uh so um that that that's pretty much the biggest hole
back e17 yeah beyond that the the release and some guy saying but well the thing is the the
pundits in the sense that say well I don't want to talk to us release store right right yeah people
think in a sense of well if it's not bad off it's not official or official release then it's very
buggy right yeah which is which is not the case so yeah you have to look at the development pattern
and and see what's going on like we've already said I mean it's it really is released it's just now
it's it's a matter of lots and lots of different features being added or maybe certain modules like
you say it's very modular so maybe certain modules are being worked on but I mean if you want to
stable x environment that looks good and it feels good the e is where it needs to be for sure oh
yeah they change the module framework it changed a lot of the frameworks so that uh things will be
a lot more streamlined and make a lot more sense to other guys who come behind them so it's just the
thing of when you want something to be feature packed and you say this is what we'll achieve and
this is what we'll attain not just because God wanted and and and uh went it out early right this
this is what we plan on releasing when it does release yeah and that you know it's that's just
having clear and concise goals yeah for a for for your project and and and uh rash for man knows
what he wants and he has a gender yeah with it so it's until that's achieved but when it is
achieved you won't need compiled you know and there are a lot of things that will just work that's
the thing the thing is being able to just click a button and it loads the module you try it out
you say you know that was cool that fire on my desktop the flames yeah I like that you know
all right somebody walk on my hey check it out and bring it on my desktop you know and turn it
off and you go back to do what you do right yeah so yeah well cool um great I think you're talking
again right all right go grab some coffee or something all right thank you for listening to
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