Episode: 1671
Title: HPR1671: LinuxLugCast Episode-002 Outtakes
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1671/hpr1671.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-18 06:47:40

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This is HPR Episode 1671 entitled Linux Lootcast Episode 2 Out-Ox.
It is hosted by Kevin Wischer and is about 82 minutes long.
The summary is, some good content that we do not publish.
This episode of HPR is brought to you by an honesthost.com.
Get 15% discount on all shared hosting with the offer code HPR15.
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Hello HPR community.
This is K Wischer from the Linux Lootcast community podcast.
I'm here to bring you some more outtakes from our recorded podcast.
This will be from Episode 2.
Listen for the intro-outro music in between sections and a reminder to tune in to the HPR
New Year's show.
Please check the HPR website for details.
Thank you for listening.
Linux Lootcast, you don't need to feel obligated to record, but if you can, if you want,
that sense it's on your local machine that you don't have to if you don't want to, you
are not required to.
Are you going planning on joining in the conversation tonight?
Do you not have a mic?
Oh, sorry about that.
I was distracted for a second.
That's...
If any of our guests do not want to speak and just plan on hanging out listening, go ahead
and turn your mic off that way we know you're not going to speak.
Yeah, I'll probably just listen in for a little while.
I've got a couple things I'm fortunate to work and I've got a client with a website
that got hacked and so it's got me a little distracted.
That's fine.
You're more than welcome to join in.
We've got some comments or whatever additions, corrections, so anything we have to say
because we're not the gospel here.
Me either.
Appreciate it though.
Thank you.
So how did you first find out about us?
Do you want to be addressed by your nickname or do you want to be addressed by your proper
name?
Oh, feel free to just call me Tom.
I've seen a post on Facebook and I can't remember which one of my friends posted it
right now.
Well, what has been for me if I don't be Facebook?
Honking you to Facebook?
Oh no.
I know Chadder does.
He's so chatty.
Yeah, I have so many friends.
It's like I couldn't.
I remember bookmarking it when I seen it posted, I clicked a link, bookmarked it, but then
I never really did anything because last month's podcast or logcasts that you did and I said
all this looks cool on a bookmarked it and then I just followed up later with the RSC
channel.
Oh, whatever friend that is.
We like him or her.
Yeah, getting my thumbs up or a like or whatever you do on Facebook.
Yeah, I'll start out for a little bit, but I might drop out partway through.
That's fine.
Just if you're not going to be involved, just turn your picture of Mike Picon up there.
It's top of the toolbar or not where we know not to try that to chat with you.
We'll do that when I know I got to drop out.
Thank you, though.
How do we want to introduce everybody in the room when we first start off?
Well, that's why it's kind of the way Dore does his meet up thing is he kind of ask
everybody that doesn't want to be addressed or spoke, you know, going to be actually participating
to turn their mic off that way he can introduce at the start of the show.
I think it's a good way to go and then just kind of go down the line and then just kind
of say the person's name and they can just kind of either say hi and introduce themselves
whatever.
That way that later on if somebody, you know, Chimes Inter says something, at least they'll
know who's talking.
We also offer a live stream if you just want to listen online and don't want to be here.
If you want to remain anonymous, we can listen to the live stream and chat with us on
IRC at the same time.
We'll answer questions that way also.
Kevin, would you put the URL in the mumble chat or the IRC for the live stream?
I'm assuming that it's a stable URL.
It's not going to change from episode to episode, is that right?
Correct.
Never mind.
I see it's already in the topic for the IRC channel.
Tom, how long have you been in the PC repair IT field?
You just disconnected?
Oh.
Sorry.
I like talking to myself.
I think we scared him away with all that stream talk.
Kevin, you've mentioned that you've been sold five, done five managed arrow installs
recently for clients?
Yes.
And you know what?
I hear I have to do less follow-up support with them than I do with Windows clients and
I'm loving it.
I mean, not that I don't want the extra money for the extra support, but I just really
get blown away by even, I mean, I'm finding, I'm getting a lot of senior citizen customers
and I'm putting them on clinics and they just use it, so I mean, they don't call, you
know, I give them a brief.
Brief overview of how to do, you know, get on the browser, check their email and I don't
have very many, I mean, they don't have very many demanding needs for an operating system
and they're not doing, I got a few to, you know, some photo editing for Facebook, you
know, stuff like that, but we get very little calls about problems with clinics and the
reason I chose them is because I'm using them now pretty much for the last five months
and it's a very good rolling distro.
I mean, I have not had any breakages with, I think they, about every two weeks, they
have major updates and have not had a failed system yet.
Yeah, I was going to ask why you chose Mangero and whether the choice was because that was
what you were familiar with or what you ran, sounds like that's what went into the decision.
Well, you know, previously I was a big math user and then I got tired of every two years
having the retrieve of a customer's computer and reinstalling and going through all that
mundo jumbo and then I started using Linux Math devian, so you know, that was a semi-rolling
so required less time on my part to do updates and I can do about everything remotely
on a rolling release as far as system updates or I show the user how to do it and I tell
them, you know, if you don't feel comfortable, I can do it for you or where you don't have
to do them at all.
I mean, it's not that, it's real serious not to do them because a lot of times I find
customers that haven't done them for quite a long time but haven't experienced that yet
on Mangero.
I'm trying to keep an email group and my Mangero customers and I was, if I see an update
come down, I send out a reminder to go ahead and do the updates so they kind of keep
more of the updates.
I'm not that familiar with the arch and Mangero system yet, but you know, I was wondering
how you handled that, how you handled updates and upgrades whether you just left it in
their hands or you, when the upgrades, when you get notifications of the upgrades to
your customers contact you and say, listen, you take care of this from the employees.
I haven't had that request yet.
I've showed everybody how, you know, they get, it's got an update notification to
down the taskbar.
I show them, I tell them how to do it, but I haven't received any calls yet for me to
do it.
Now, there's one customer I know that would probably never call me and he would probably
never do them.
So I just do them boring remotely whenever they're in the middle of the night or early in
the morning when I know he told me he's not a night owl, he never gets up before 9
a.m.
So I just, when I go to work at 6.30 in the morning, I'll remove them to his system real quick early
in the morning and do it boring.
And so far you've found them and general upgrades are clean or stable, don't know the exact
words enough that you don't actually have to physically visit the site.
Correct.
From what I've gathered from the following men 0 on the forums and their IRC channel,
they default to a, what's called a stable branch.
They have a testing brand, it's kind of like Debbie and they have the testing branch
and the stable branch and it defaults to the stable and they do some testing in the
testing repos before they get, it gets released to the stable branch.
So I feel, and like I said, that's where I've stayed all along just on the stable repos
and I've not experienced any system wreckages.
I did hear some disparaging comments about Ninja.
I think it's because I think was on the last segment of the HPR after show from New
years and essentially statement came out was, yeah, we're to believe a three man team.
I don't know how many people they've got at Pincharo.
Actually can do testing and pronounce everything stable before they let it out, you know, running
a week or whatever it is behind arch.
Yeah, I think I remember that conversation from the New Year show and I, not having ever
run arch or mangero or anything arch based, I don't have any personal experience but I
seem to be pretty valid point.
The only real experience I have with stuff in a testing edition is Debian and testing
for Debian of course is testing for the next stable release and so you're going to always
have bugs and people point them out and there are ways in Debian to find out if there are
bugs against the particular versions that you're possibly going to upgrade to and I don't
know.
Kevin in mangero, if say that package is going to get upgraded from one version to another
higher numerical version, there's some kind of bug tracker that mangero runs where you
can see if there are bugs filed against that.
I do not know that, whether it's an official bug tracker.
I watch the forums every day to see reports of stuff and I know there's a lot of users
that follow the testing branch, I don't know, I don't even know the number of developers
if Pepti you said you heard 3, that kind of surprised me.
Yeah, maybe it's 3 that have the authority to actually commit more recent newer packages.
Well, the way they said it, I don't know if that's something they just pulled from outer
space.
Well, I think, wasn't it Cobra 2 that was making that comment?
If it was Cobra 2, I would tend to give his comments a decent amount of weight rather
than just somebody out of the blue that I don't have any background on.
Yeah, I think you're right.
I know I planned to try mengero my little portable laptop, I had CINARCH which became
ENERGOS and I was really happy with that.
It wasn't anything to do with the distro, it's just that I had no O-C-Z stay dry if the
guy didn't get it up and I haven't got it done yet.
I bought an Intel solid state drive, I've heard if you're going to buy a solid state drive
that's the way to go, but I've had, last year I've had two SSDs from O-C-Z up a quit
on me.
Of course, I'm always buying behind, you know, I buck stuff off new egg that was the cheapest
way to do an SSD that was usually a couple of technologies behind the current, so you
pay your money and you take your chance, I guess.
But this time around, I think I'm going to try mengero on it.
Kevin, on those mengero, installs their oil XFCE, awesome, correct, no, there's a sped
in a mengero for just about anything, I think XFCE comes out first.
Well, we were talking before you got here about an installed mengero on five of my client
customers, that's what he meant, I think.
Yeah, and I was the context.
Yeah, they do have different desktop environment, spins, XFCE being the main one, but they've
got an open box, a KDE, they've even got a known three.
The sentiment that our community spends, they've got about anything you want.
Yeah, I think I had an enlightenment, in fact, that was the thing, after Synarch became
Annergos, I could never get cinema to work again, so I moved over to E17, but this, you
know, when they came out with the different spins, about two weeks after the last mangero
release, I grabbed the sentiment, mangero, and of course, it really doesn't matter, the
desktop, because you can always install what you want, and then install whatever desktop
you want from the repos.
15, do you have your mic extra close to your nose or mouth, I'm here in freedom?
I can move it away some, and then I've heard you've read anything before, does that
matter?
I think so.
Yeah, I don't, I don't have like a cough shield on it, but I can put one on.
50, just for what it worth, for what it's worth, I have Kingston SSD in this machine.
When I, when I decided to spend the money on an SSD, I hooked around a new egg and kind
of got scared off by a bunch of OCC bad ratings by people that purchased OCC SSDs, and I think
I might have mentioned it before, somebody mentioned it, I think OCC actually went bankrupt
recently, within the past couple months, because maybe because of the poor quality of their
hard drives.
Yeah, that did, that did take them down, a lot of people, I looked into it, it seemed
to me like OCC was as good as anybody else, and then the questions about quality came
after I bought all of mine, because I bought a couple, I bought one for the computer in
the dining room, and another one for this little laptop, because it's, it's only one
megahertz to a core, you know, I want something to speed it up, plus, you know, have any mobile
machine that's better to have a SSD in, so if it falls or anything like that, less likely
to lose your data, but I had not seen the bad reviews, everything I'd heard when I bought
all of mine was OCC as good as anybody else, I think right after that, these things started
becoming.
Yeah, and again, for what it's worth, I, looking at some hardware reports that I've got on
this system here, looks like I've had this Kingston about a year and a half now, October
2012 is when I created the file system on it.
Well, are we ready to get started?
I thought we were, you mean I'm on top of time?
We were waiting on you, I'm just kind of doing a little pre-show chatter.
Yeah, I am sorry about that, it's kind of a near thing I'm here at all.
I was looking up the TV schedule for tonight, and while starting an hour and a half ago,
my local PBS station was actually running the three doctors.
I guess at least I got to see the first half of it, I've never seen that.
I'm fine with starting now, sure.
Who wants to kind of be the main MC tonight?
I can't do it last week, I'd like to do somebody else a chance.
I'll do it since I didn't bring any content tonight, how's that?
Works for me.
You're on.
Okay, we're going to do a little five seconds of silence here.
I'm going to write down show start time at 0.25.
So why isn't madbot working?
50, madbot.
Oh no, that ought to be working.
At one point, I had seen some kind of list of commands that you could issue to madbot,
and now I can't find it.
That's why I was trying to help command to see if that would output anything helpful,
but as I don't see anything.
What could be, I clicked into Linux Basics, and I thought I was in Linux Logcast earlier,
and then, oh, the bots are down, because it was a big net split in Linux Basics.
And so I ran the launcher again, so it could be that if running twice on the server,
I may need to kill it and start again.
How do curiosity, do you have a VPS that you can run madbot on,
or are you limited to just what's at your home?
Yeah, it's just my home server.
It's just command line.
Are you running a logbot?
What's on your home server?
Yeah, they're both mine.
Like I said, I put up madbot under approval.
So, like I said, I'll kill one and use madbot for everything, but I'll change its name.
Because it seems like the time on your home server is off.
It's ahead maybe eight minutes.
Well, everything syncs up with five times.
Take a look in the IRC channel.
The last thing from logbot at 2249, my local time says,
KWisher 0357 Zulu, which is fast.
Okay, I see what you mean.
You know, you run an NTP date,
Kronga?
What, it should be pulled, it's time off the internet.
Just SSH into it and type date with it date.
It's coming in the show with current date and time.
Yeah, that's just a minute or time.
Yeah, you're right.
It's about minutes fast.
I'll look in that model and see if I reset when the time comes.
Well, I guess I just assumed it was getting it in that time.
Yeah, I run a Kronga job every hour to think the time on this machine with the NTP server.
Can't you just tell it like any other device to just always use and be teated all the time?
Maybe you can, that's not how I understand how NTP works.
I think you have to, as I understand it, you have to grab the correct time off the NTP server,
and then your system, if you grab it, then your system uses that time, but may run fast or slow,
depending on your system.
So you need to, as I understand it, you need to periodically refresh the machine time
with the NTP server time.
Okay, I'll look into that tomorrow.
I'm sure it's easy enough to do.
Yeah, and Debbie, and the only gotcha is that you have a naming convention for the files
in Slash, it's the Slash Krong dot hourly.
I can't remember what the naming convention is, but I just created a script in that
directory named Time that with no extension.
I think if you give it an extension, Krong will not run the job on Debbie, but I'm not sure about that.
You know, it probably applies to me.
Mine's actually you've moved to server, and the only reason I did that,
I wanted to go with, oh, shoot it.
Getting foggy here, that the, not free, because we're both free, the non-pay version of Red Hat,
but it did not support my natively, the Ray to Ray in the machine, and I'd recently
been bitten when I started out by having Debbie and not having to compile everything for Debbie.
So I went, if you go to instead, which is probably my worst choice, but that's why it's a
you've moved to server. I'm going to call it a night.
Have a good one, Harvey. Oh, good one. Thank you.
Santos, that was trying to thank you.
You're out there, Thadge. You are allowed to talk during the podcast if you want.
Yeah, I'm here. My attention is in and out. I have a big licensing test to take in
the morning, so I've been kind of studying and listening, so I didn't participate too much.
Well, that's fine. Yeah, if you got a test, you can concentrate on that.
I'm doing my best to try not to concentrate on it, but you know how that works.
Well, sometimes you can concentrate too hard, and you know, there's nothing works.
I can't feel like that's probably where I'm at. I've been looking at this stuff for weeks,
and really, I already know it. It's just, I'm freaking myself out a little bit about it.
I know one thing. I'm going to take this test tomorrow. I'm probably going to play with Rockbox.
We have a convert. Well, I usually listen to everything on my phone, which is great, except for
it's kind of bulky when I'm working out or I'm working out in the field or anything like that.
It'd be nice to just have a little small one, and my daughter has a clip,
so I know kind of how they were, but the big sticking point for me was the variable speed on the
podcast, because I listen to podcasts that like two to three times speed, but it's some crazy.
I have never gotten to a point where I can listen to a podcast, speed it up that fast time.
I for a long time, I was using tempo 1.4 with socks, then I went to tempo 1.45,
and now I'm tempo 1.48. I think when I went to 1.5 tempo, it just couldn't fall along.
It depends on the topic matter and stuff. Sometimes I can kick it up near 200,
but I'm usually a lot more comfortable about 150.
I usually, I just looked every pretty much everything I listen to 2.75.
There are a few that I can't, I don't know what it is, Ken Fallon. I cannot listen to him
past 2. I don't know why his accent particular. It's not like it's not clear.
Just something about it, just lurs me Kevin, and I can't understand where he says.
Yeah, that's what one of the staff could do with HPR.
Excellent show, man. From Fallston, the guy who's involved in
Sabba, but I had it about 150 from 1.4, I think it was a hook, and I know,
but I was driving the time, trying to feel my way through it and slow it back down to about
100. Actually, first I slowed it down to about 80, and I said, no, if everybody sounds like
they're drunk, I went too far. Yeah, I think you might. I was just going to say that wasn't
excellent episode with Jeremy Allison. Yeah, it was actually. My big thing is usually not
who's doing it is usually the recording quality. It's the stuff in the background that kills me
if she speed it up, because it just turns into this massive sound.
Well, I said, it was kind of point of contention on the stuff a year ago that went to the
first in, first down on HPR, because they called for shows, and many had three in mind for six
months, but some of the stuff that had been in there, that had been from Fallston, but recording
speakers, not recording interviews, but all those shows. I was listening to the Clepper
P's, maybe if I'd been listening to headsets and add a computer, but there were just a bunch of
those shows and it's the meat, they were just nearly un-listenable because people were constantly
opening popcorns and sliding their chairs. It picked up all kinds of background noises,
like I listened to it. It was, I was getting one word out of three on this.
Yeah, it's very rare. I have to not listen to something because of how bad it is, but yeah,
I think that was probably one of the ones I skipped. It was some of the positive stuff, even though
some of it was really good, they just get to a point where some of it was terrible, as far as the
quality. Well, I'm going to go grab a beer, and this is probably not good voice tags or
badger, but you know the whole wise tale about you, you know, you drink beers while you're
studying, and then you drink beer right before the test and it all comes back.
Is that the trick? I don't drink, so I wish I did, and maybe that would help.
Oh, and it's Taj, the agent silent, everybody screws it up, does, it'll feel good.
Yeah, I think I said that way first, Taj, okay. I answer to all of them.
So, Taj, how did you find Lennox?
It's a really long story. Give us the condensed version.
I originally went to school to be a musician, got into audio and video production, lived the
Apple world for a long time, and Apple was terrible, and I didn't want to go to Windows because
that's what I kind of grew up with for the most part, and so I just played around until I found
Lennox, and it just kind of clicked like the whole philosophy behind it. I was just like, oh yeah,
this is what I've been missing. It also helped. It also helped. We can do it. It also helped
like all the command line stuff that I need for Mac, because it was BSD based, kind of just came over.
Yeah, I've just recently started using a Mac, it's because of my job. That's not because of personal
preference, but I find a lot of similarities between Mac and Lennox.
It is, it's just the whole, everything is locked down. Like, that's the thing that irritated me
to no end. It was just the, you have to do it their way. There's no other way to do it. You
don't like doing it the other way. You wind up with this Clujie hack to make things work, and then
they'll come around and break it, and it's a problem. Sorry for stepping on your toes there,
Scotch. I was just going to bring up something that's been going through my mind lately, and that is
with Wayland on the approaching horizon, it's, I'm going to reach a point myself where
my window manager is not going to be an alternative, an option. I use FBWM, and I don't think
there's going to be any effort at all to make the thing run on Wayland, maybe under some
X-11 layer on top of Wayland, but it's going to get to a point where I'm going to have to switch
to something else, and I started looking at Fox Fox, and I started looking at Enlightenment
within the past couple of weeks, just to see if, first of all, whether they're, they have plans
to get their window managers running on Wayland. I don't know what Fox is, Enlightenment. There's
some kind of, well, we might maybe, if we have a time who knows, you'll have to just wait and see,
but because I've used FBWM for such a long time, I have extremely specific preferences,
and I would really, really, really rather not switch to a window manager that does not allow me
to configure the preferences to something I'm used to and gotten used to and really prefer. So
that's something maybe, at some point, people can throw out ideas on that subject.
Chatter since I've never used FBWM, is there anything else that's real similar that I would
be more familiar with? I don't think, I can't take up anything off the top of my head.
There are a gazillion options that you can set in FBWM, and you can, you can use one
single text file configuration to set up your environment, or you can split the configuration
file into smaller ones and load the smaller files. But, you know, when I, just to give an example,
when I, when I try to out Fluxbox recently, I do not like a panel at the bottom or the top or any
side of a workspace. I don't want that. And maybe there's a way in Fluxbox to get rid of that.
If there is, I didn't poke around deeply enough, persistently enough to locate how to do that.
And another example with Fluxbox, in the panel by default on devian here, you, you get a
pager, which shows your workspaces, and you can switch to certain workspaces various ways.
But I want to, I want a separate panel. I mean, I want a separate pager with my workspaces.
And I got a, I got a separate panel running, I'm sorry, I got a separate pager running,
but I couldn't move the darn thing. It was stuck in the bottom right hand corner. I couldn't
put it where I wanted it to go on, on my display. Now, if I can't do that, then, you know,
that's a minus on my opinion. Now, with that XFCE, you can, you can remove the default panel,
like the bottom, or the top, depending on which, where the distribution puts it. And then,
you can create your own user-defined panels with, you know, specific things right on them,
and you can move those panels around anywhere on your screen.
I kind of like the way of writing it, because it's a little hard to get used to. And though,
I think you probably do this on any desktop, but I just know it does this by default.
If you move your mouse pointer to the right or left edge of the screen, you'll, you know,
go to the next workspace, the trick with that is you've got to go in and, you know, set it to
no window kit. You've always got like a three pixel buffer between the edge of your window and
the edge of the screen. That makes it a lot easier, so you're not constantly switching desktops by accident.
The default action on Manjaro's XFCE is the, if you're getting your mouse in
all over your wallpaper and blank area, if you're not over in an open window or whatever,
just use your mouse wheel and switch to workspaces. And that's easier to figure out in the desktop
setting, of course. I think it's like that through a lot of desktops.
But I find myself just using the control all arrow keys to switch workspaces.
I do use the applet that's on my bottom panel also. It has a panel for switching. So there's
three different ways I can switch workspaces depending on where my hand is.
How many workspaces do you usually run?
I used to run four, but I found that I never used more than two. So I just here lately I've just been
setting up two workspaces. And this is in XFCE, right? Correct. Can you tell XFCE that if you start
application poo, you want it always to run on workspace bar?
I don't get that deep into the configurations, but I think you can't. I think there is a
selling event. Now I could do it in E17, so I assume that's not, of course, XFCE, the little sparse,
but I assume it's in. It's just known where to do it. See, I put a link to an image of my desktop
in the mumble chat. And so you can see how many simultaneously running applications that I've
got. And the the pager up there in the top left, not only does it display many icon for the application,
if the application has a many icon, if you move your mouse cursor over that application in the
pager, a little pop-up appears, and it'll say, might, or it'll say, extract, or it'll say,
Firefox or something else. And I don't know if XFCE has that or enlightenment has that
capability. My first Google search for XFCE start application on workspace tells me that the default
settings, there's no way to do it in the default XFCE, but there is an add-on application called
Devil's Python, allow you to do that. Hey, Shannon, what's going on on the background?
Oh, that's my Wi-Fi antenna, don't you know? It's a pretty serious Wi-Fi antenna.
No, actually, what that is, there's a there's a blog called Short-P-S-H-R-R-P-Y.com, and it has
antique photo images, photographs, and the guy who runs the site will have, you know, maybe a
couple of weeks to go by where there's nothing interesting, and then there'll be something which is
got awfully unusual that I grab it and make it my background. Now, that's another thing. Kevin,
in XFCE, if you've got, let's say you've got four workspaces, can you have each workspace have
its own wallpaper or background? Yes, and I have dual monitors, and I can specify which background
on which monitor and which workspace on each one of them. And I imagine you can custom
my, if you use right or left or middle mouse button click on the background, you can pop up a
like an application menu, like appears in the images of the workspace that I put out.
Yes, there is a pop-up menu to get to applications and your menu, yes.
Is that a text file, if you know? The menu itself, I'm sure, is a text file,
yes, you can go in there, where it's located, I don't know, so I can say I don't get real deep in
the customizing. And I imagine you can make things sticky so that like certain system monitors
will appear on all workspaces, right? I'm not sure, I run conky, so I have a conky going on,
it stays on all this, all workspaces. I used to use before I switched to XFC, well even when I
first started switched to XFC, there's some screenlets, I think it's the name of the application
where you can put little widgets all over, wherever you've got, you know, clocks, calendars,
weather, time, you know, system resource monitors, stuff like that. And like by the time I started
adding five or six screenlets, widgets, it seemed like it was eating up too much resources, so I
finally learned how to set up conking, and I like it a lot better. Yeah, that's one thing that's
really endeared me to, another thing that's really endeared me to FVWM is that with some of what
is displayed in that image that I put into the mumble chat, some of that are FVWM modules,
and with FVWM running along with all the modules, it takes about 20 meg of RAM.
In XFC or Enlightenment is it possible to create custom tidal bar buttons so that you can
like click on a button and send the application to another workspace or shade and D-shade,
you know, roll up, roll down the window. I'll speak for XFC, E, if you right click on the
header bar of any open window, you can choose which workspace to send, it's got send to C.
You can roll up, which is I think you can roll up the open window into just a tidal bar.
It's also got always on works visible workspace and then moved to another workspace and then
depending on how many workspaces you have enabled you can choose which one to send it to.
If you know, can you FVWM has something called styles for different applications? So if I enter
if I open up the terminal, I don't have a tidal bar. Is that something that you can customize in
XFC, E, if you know, create, and I might have asked you this question before. I have a feeling I
did. Can you can you create a style or something for like let's say X term, where X term when you
open up X term, it doesn't have a tidal bar. I'm not sure about that one. How are you? If you've
not assuming you have not loaded up XFC, no, I can't remember the last time I even ran XFC,
was probably years ago. You only have the one computer. Yes, that's right. Can you run a virtual
box on that one computer to play around with different distributions that specialize in specific
desktop environments? Well, I wouldn't even have to do that. I could just drop down to a TTY and
log in and then start a second X session. That's what I've been, that's what I was doing, what I
was poking around in enlightenment and in watch box, just have X stored on a different display.
But you have to install each window manager desktop environment, right? Right, yes. I just don't like
it. It's all moldable. I read into issues when I had moldables trying, I don't know, I think
I was back when I first started Linux, I was playing around KDE and now I'm two at the same time
then I got wonky. Yeah, with KDE, I think I, and this was a while ago, a couple of years maybe,
I think I started some kind of KDE control center or settings manager and it changed my mouse cursor
to this, to me, extremely ugly oxygen mouse cursor and I had to, I had to log out of X and log
back in for the original mouse cursor to be used. I couldn't, couldn't figure out how to get rid of that
KDE style mouse cursor or that, that was the only trouble really that I had where something
was stomping on the way I wanted to actually have things appear because I have, I have dropped
it with TTY, logged in and started up KDE and who knows, maybe, maybe I'll have to go to KDE,
but as near as I can tell it seems like KDE, everything is basically done graphically instead of
poking around in text files, configuration files and I will have to learn a whole new set of jargon
words because I doubt whether what something is called in FVWM is going to be called the same thing
in KDE, so if I, you know, have something stored on a particular desktop, there's a KDE,
there's a FVWM term for that and it's probably something really different in KDE, just as an example.
So you, you know for a fact that FVWM like not work with Wayland? Well, I haven't had it specifically
told, nobody specifically told me, but I would be astonished if it did. First of all, it's not a
compositing window manager and as I understand Wayland, if you're going to have a window manager
running that's not Weston, I think Weston is the window manager that comes with Wayland by default,
it's got to be a compositing window manager, it's got to be able to do 3D stuff and FVW,
I know for a fact that FVWM will not go to become a compositing window manager, that's been,
that I have specifically remember seeing said in the IRC channel and on the mailing list,
but it's, but FVWM has served me well for more than a decade and, you know, it'll, it'll be sad
have to put the thing to sleep, but you know, it's just something that I'm going to have to face
at some point in the future, because I don't think, I think after a period of time when Wayland actually
hits the mainstream distributions, it's the X11 development is really going to drop off the clip,
and you're going to get to a point where, hey, you can't do these things anymore, you've got to move.
Well, gentlemen, it's been fun, but I got to get to bed so I can get up to this test in the morning,
hopefully I'll be on here next time and actually be able to focus and contribute a little bit more.
Good luck on the test. Yeah, definitely, good luck and thanks for dropping in.
What, which, which test is it? I am adding a endorsement to my teaching license for a,
a higher level math certification than I have now to teach some advanced classes.
We have a strange situation where we have a lot of special ed students that are in really advanced
math, so they need somebody to get the license, so I agree to do it. That's kind of interesting
here. You've got to come in sometimes, play now that works. That seems like a contradiction to me.
Well, technically, special ed is anything that is not normal, so I always try to relate it to kids
when they find out they're special ed and they get bummed about it is, special ed goes all
away from somebody changes your pants to this kid as 12 years old and should probably have a master's
degree. And so we have a few kids that are really scaredy's right now.
Oh, okay, I've got kids like that, so that includes the gifted programs there.
Technically, we don't, we don't have a gifted program, which is kind of silly, but yeah, most,
I know in my state, which is Indiana, we, it all gets lumped under special ed or actually,
now it's not special ed, it's exceptional child education is the new term. Indiana,
well, you ought to be, you ought to be hanging out with 330 and peg wall then.
I'm in Indiana too. No way. Yeah, I totally, I want to hang out with 330,
because we have a lot of similarities. I always love when he actually pops in, which is not very
often anymore. If you don't have to be specific, but whereabouts in Indiana?
I can be in Louisville, Kentucky in about 10 minutes, so I'm right on the border,
right on the river. No, I'm up in the Kokomo area. Well, I know nothing from Indiana,
but 330 and peg wall and Richmond understand even when she was coming there, a crack pipe,
big touch. Indiana has a lot of meth everywhere. It seems like every,
everywhere you go in Indiana, that's what everybody wants to talk about as a meth,
or at least that's what I explained. All right, guys, let's catch it.
Take care. Yeah, see you, Todd. Well, I see we have two live listeners on the stream.
Oh, fine. Nobody during the show. Well, I may have forgot to refresh the web interface for the
ice cast to check that, but at the start we didn't have any, but then I posted something in
all cast plants, so I don't have to pick up a couple from there. Well, if you're listening to us,
and you're in the planet, uh, mess up, so we know who our listeners are. And why aren't you in
pound Linux lug cast? It may be rare for me. He finally found us today on IRC. Yeah,
what happened to, uh, what's his name like to get you swore up and down he was here at the start,
and then he said he may have to drop out again. A client that had a website that was crushing
or something. So he wasn't here. He talked to us a little bit before you, John. I guess that's
a valid excuse. Flipside creation. The voice is IRC handled. Yeah, that's who I was thinking.
So do we want to set my hockey's down here so I couldn't be left abruptly before I get a chance
to discuss. We want to officially invite John and on a show to discuss the state of his fundraiser
and everything. Well, not that I'm opposed to it. You know, I asked you brought that up, but you
reminded me that I listened to that, uh, uh, uh, meetup. You know, I think they did a pretty good
job of kicking them whole thing around. Now, you know, now that money Jonathan had, I, you know,
if I've been involved in making a decision, which I'm not, I might have said pointed out to them,
okay, you know, uh, Orca, obviously people obviously don't want your money, but they've said,
you know, half the problem with Orca is that other programs don't report, uh, you know, don't do
notifications in a standardized way. And that's why Orca doesn't work with them. And, you know,
if I was Jonathan, I wasn't fine. What we'll, you know, we'll do is we'll, you know,
uh, we'll, we'll, if they'll give us a list of those bugs, then, you know, we'll put a, uh,
bounty on those other applications to do those bugs as either I, I hadn't looked at the final
poll, but I don't think you know, I'm not sure you actually collecting that. Hey,
anybody enough to actually fork the thing and do anything with it.
Is, so is the fundraiser has been completely stopped that way? No, what you're saying?
I think it's over now. Oh, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Stop it because of this kerfuffle,
buddy. Well, I didn't, uh, is it, is it still going, man? I didn't think it was.
I haven't, I haven't looked at the fundraising page lately. Maybe probably in a couple weeks,
But I had the impression that there was an expiration date and the expiration date has passed and as near as I know
He didn't he didn't stop the fundraising
Early, so the question of whether he stopped here because of you know the differences he had with
Joanne Marie. I don't even think came up
Like like I said in the emails or somebody said in the emails it started seem to be that it started off on the wrong foot
And
You know, maybe if it maybe if it had been done differently from the start the
Responsive Joanne Marie digs would have been different, but who knows
You know sometimes sometimes you and tag and I somebody without even knowing that that's what's gonna happen
And I got I got the impression from Jonathan that that's what the situation was here. He had he had
Very little contact if any contact with Joanne Marie digs before starting the fundraiser and
So he didn't know he had no heads up or idea what her response was going to be at all
Well, I get the impression this is kind of a closed project. I know there's not it
You know, they're they're not even set up to take contributions from well-meaning people who were you know who would donate their time to
Work on bugs or enhance the program. So I can kind of understand her you know her thinking well
She's a sole person working on it
So anybody who's collecting money pay other programmers is saying to her well, you're not doing the job
I you know, so I mean obviously they're not even set up take code contributions
From volunteers
Well, actually the the order page itself has a has a way of how to submit a patch
So, you know, I don't know if they're on GitHub or some other place. They do use git. So
There's got to be some get repository somewhere that you can submit patches to and
You know see it's it
I'm obviously I don't have any inside information or information as anything more than what
Jonathan said on the pod next meter
But the one of the impressions that I got was that is
Focus was we're going to work on orca but looking at the orca project ages the focus is
On applications that are trying to talk to orca or orca is trying to talk to
You know vice versa and
So Jonathan was was trying to fix something that they don't think needs fixing instead of going after what orca
Thinks needs to be fixed and maybe maybe I'm not explaining that clearly, but
That that was one of the impressions that I got from looking at the orca project pages and seeing the couple of things that
Don't Marie did said put up on can fall in sight and she had put in the
reddit correct
You know, there's a there's a on the orca page
There's a and on the orca website. There's a how can I help page which gives instructions on how to
submit patches so they are looking for patches
The the thing that I remember Jonathan saying in the pod nuts meet up is that somebody had asked in the
mailing list how do I get involved or what what what can I do to help well
If the person hasn't taken the time to find out is there a how do I how can I help page on the project how serious are they about
Making a contribution because this is an extensive page about what what they want to do
And how to do it
So the person doesn't even need to post anything to the mailing list. It seems to me
Does that make sense to people?
Yeah, I mean, I see I see the points on both sides, but what's really got me baffled is
You know club john for his cause and everything going after you know make trying to get this
Make orca, you know, the premier screener you're in everything
But why wouldn't he have contacted the developers first and said hey, I am a blind user. I use your product
This is the shortcomings. I see and I'd like to start this fundraiser to solve these problems
Where where do you need to help? Where's the help needed instead of trying to I mean I just don't understand the planning behind
I mean I plot his effort and there's and I have nothing
Bad to say about what he's trying to do
But yeah, I can understand the developers point of view also is that she
Need the help me to be in the applications
Access in orca and I think he could have done a better job of pointing his efforts in that direction
You know and being
Communicating with the developers from the get go to find out where the help was needed. Yeah, like I said
As step out for a couple minutes
What you said chatter that they actually have a place to
Accept patches and submissions that completely changed the tone changes the tone now because
You know that ask for help and then when somebody says okay, we'll give you the help and we'll pay somebody
To help you out and then they say no, no, we're gonna not have that the guy talk, you know that
John was in contact with who offered to do code review to see if they can make things for efficient
And so no, we don't want that either. It just sounds like she's being and reason real protective of her job
And you know, I can I can kind of understand that kind of flies in the face of the spirit of open source
Well, refresh my memory because I remember some discussion about code review
Was that on the work of mailing list or was that in the private mails that
Jonathan had with somebody who had posted to the orca mailing list?
I think that was both because it was something about he you know somebody who had heard about the project and said
Well, I can't contribute any money, but I often tribute time and he contacted
On the mailing list and we said well, you know, I'm pretty good at
Checking stuff, but you know, I you know, I'll for do a code review and he said I've talked to Jonathan
And then she came back slap Jonathan the private knows says how dare you send this guy to to say that I need to code review
Yeah, I
I can speak from personal experience
That if somebody takes me off it's very easy for me to stay ticked off at them and if somebody is ticked off at me
It's very easy for them to stay ticked off at me
um, and sometimes from put again from personal experience sometimes that will never change or it might take years to change
And the reason for me being ticked off at them or them being ticked off at me
Could be something that is a complete misunderstanding. So, you know
Maybe maybe something can get repaired. Maybe it can
Um, like you said Kevin. I I don't know why it never it just seems never to have occurred to Jonathan to
Notify, you know to bring bring this up before he started it
It just it just seems never to have occurred to Jonathan and I'm I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that
It wasn't like he was trying to go behind their backs or start up something that he was in control of and that
They they would have no input about. I don't believe that's how Jonathan works
I've met you know
I've never had any indication of all the tests how he works. So I'm like it
willing to give him the benefit of the doubt
I agree totally um, but and I'm making a big assumption here from what I
From what information I've gathered from ever since he started you know started the fundraiser and was, you know
Always on every other podcast speaking of it just
Impression I got without him actually confirming it is that it sounded to me like he'd already been in contact with the developers and this is where the
This is what they what they needed and this is why he was doing this now he never
Said that but I just took that from the context of all his promotions for it
Yeah, I think part part of the thing is that I'm in a bubble
I get my news in certain areas and
Joe marr it maybe Joe Marie digs or other people at the Orca project get their news from some other sources
They may have never even heard of
Jonathan's fundraising efforts for them. They may have heard that oh, there's this sonar project thing and they they
Read two sentences about it and that's the last thing that they ever find out about it and then all of a sudden this thing appears out of nowhere
Um, maybe that's what happened
Um, I know it like you said it was being promoted to the health
Uh, and in many places that I follow but that doesn't necessarily mean that she's gonna get a heads up about it
unfortunately
Well, I mean that kind of surprised me
I thought the part of the podcast from Jonathan is why I started getting emails from
uh
DeFess F E F F. Yeah, you know, I thought they would have been they would have been you know
I thought you should say there were supportive emails and you know
I'll get let's talk to explain what you're doing
But it was like all the emails are who the hell are you and why are why are you collecting money?
Well to me that indicates that he didn't even run if I
The FSF that he didn't that or if he did he didn't sit down with them and say look
This is what I'm planning. This is this is what my target is if I reach my
target. I'm gonna do this if if I don't reach my target. I'm gonna do the other thing that
It was if he talked to somebody about planning it like I think he I think he mentioned that he talked to Jason
Calacanis at one point who's like this super mega
multi-billionaire practically or for
startups and venture capital you got like 15 minutes with with the guy
um
You know when he
With some advice, but I don't know who else he contacted for this kind of thing
It's it's really a shame because you know something that started out as with a outstanding
goal is now caught up in all this extraneous
Bad films. It's really a shame
Well like I said, it's not like I've got any place telling Jonathan what he could do
But I mean if it was me the way I would have handled
The hammery saying you know our our major problem is that
All these other applications and programming frameworks do not report data in the way they should in the standard way
They should be
Instead of instead of saying okay, let's let's do a cause like fork of
uh
Of orka and I don't think he's got enough money to do that, but I would have said okay fine
Get get give me a list of these divergent occasions and I will pay a bounty for people to submit patches to make them work in a way that
Or to can deal with yeah, but that's dealing with that's not dealing with your project
I'm dealing with flunderbird or you know some other code base
um
That's and I'm repeating myself. I know but the impression I got was that
Orka doesn't have any problem with your own code. It's the code in these other applications
Rebrow office for
Underbird and I think they give some other examples
But all that stuff all that stuff is is on and I'm getting on repeat myself
All that stuff is on your project website
Well, that's why I'm saying that that least would have kept peace in the family
I don't you know there's others that I mean I think the way they're standing uh
It kind of would have broke if if everything started working the way it should be it would break orka
Because orka does some clutches to get around you know the way the way these things are the way the other
Applications are doing are doing things in the way they should not be doing, but I don't think there's a you know
You know in that position. I don't think Anne Marie could could possibly and
You know, I don't know if anybody
I guess what you're saying chatter is people donated to or donated to the project
Would say oh no, I you know you're spitting my money in a wrong way because you're fixing other applications
Other in orka. I don't I can't imagine anybody donated would would make a complaint like that
You know and as it stands
You know people saying well the money's not not going to orka
But at least not not the work that we know and you know
I don't think anybody's gonna go come up and shout fraud or something at that. No
No
Well getting back to the first question kevin when you know you what this up
I my I'm inclined to think no, let's not if no, let's not have Jonathan on the show to talk about this
If if we talk if we have Jonathan on the show, he should talk about northeast limits best or something else
But not bring up at all and fundraiser
um
It I think he's grown up enough that he's not going to you know feel like we're picking at a scab or something
but you get to a point where if he
This is this is what I expect it would happen. You get to a point where for him to give a complete explanation
He's gonna have to get into private stuff and stuff that's none of my business
So if he's if he's on the show just make it clear that we're not gonna talk about the
work of and the
Indiegogo stuff
You know that's that's just my feeling. I mean, I'm I'm curious
But you know, I can I can understand myself well enough to think well I'm curious because it's like hey
I'd like to find out the inside scoop about stuff and you know a lot of times the inside scoop is like I said none of my business
So well, I mean the main reason I asked the question that wasn't to like you said the put him on the spot
Is do we want to make that part of our show? I mean, we never really discussed bringing on
You know special guest
Is that something we want to do? Well loves hat, you know
Uh, yeah, that's a good point clear. Let's be clear. We're not Linux basics. I mean I was like in the other day
You know, we're not you know Linux basics tried to keep everything for for new Linux users and it was real hard
Because everybody wanted to talk about the new and shiny
And you know, it was hard to keep them on top to something help out that the the the newbie user
But we're a lug and a lug like we said lug is talk about what worked what didn't work and you know
Lugs definitely have guests on
Occasionally, you know have speakers in so yeah, I don't think it's at all having problems having Jonathan on and when you first mentioned a chat
Sorry, I can't wish her. I thought well, I didn't know about this. I know I want to know more about it
But let listening to the audience meet up other than you know me criticizing the way Jonathan handled
Like I said, I would I would have done it way
Uh, and pointing out there is
You know
The chatter brought up that
That the orca website does have a path to submit patches
Uh, and then obviously they don't want to be to do that
Uh, you know, that's the only other point. I think I could we could bring out but that wasn't covered in in the
In the meet up, so I don't know what we could possibly add now. I mean as far as far as talking Jonathan say
No, we're not going to talk about that subject. I don't know if that's necessary if you you know say we
Jonathan would just like to have you on and talk about
North Eastlitt is fast and if this thing if he brings this thing up well fine
Yeah, I think I think having guessed like like you said 50 that's fine because uh, but I mean
The love meetings I've been to and it's been you know
10 or 12 years since I was at physically out of love meeting the uh, we always had somebody come in and make a presentation
And it could have been a love member or it could have been
a representative of a
commercial company or it could have been you know somebody who's not connected at all with the love
I tell you who I would like to interview and and 50 if you you might run this by the KPO people
There's the Rochester Institute of Technology announced this week that they are starting up an academic minor program
Not a not a major but a minor in free and open-source
projects and basically it's coding and and programming is a small part of that
But it's actually the the operation of the projects
It seems to be what a lot of the
Emphasis or focus is in in that minor and I would like to see
I would like to hear somebody interviewed from
RIT departments that are involved with that as to how they how they develop this what kind of
What kind of materials are going to be used in the different classes is there going to be like a clinical program where
The students in the in the minor go out and actually get involved with a project and have to
you know
Percent information make a presentation to the other students in the minor about what their experience was
It's just going to be a MOOC where where anybody can sign up for the classes and take them over the web
And all these kinds of things have been going through my mind list a couple of days when I saw the
The notice on reddit about that. I think it was on reddit where I saw the notice about the
So KPO the when you when KPO had that fellow from Penn Manor that was it to me that was far in a way
The best KPO I ever listened to and if
If you could do something with the Rochester Institute of Technology
Faculty that would be excellent in my opinion
Yes, I'll see what I do that's in a very interesting. She had the the Penn Manor deal was you know
Completely a field for I mean, it's not like we haven't had guests on for
You're right, but I I saw those things and I said that you know
Well, you got you probably know it was it was me made the context and I am going to get that guy on for
Tilt's does good for you
And the mar night
If he's on I you know him really done as nearly as much formal planning
But handsome pirate has been a red hat employee for about six months now
And I hit him up two weeks ago at the end of the show if your members
I want to have him on have him talk about what it's like to be a red hat employee
Well, you know, there's things about red hat and there's things about red hat
And I'm looking to see if I have something that I can drop into the mumble chat about that
You know, they they sell an awful lot of
Services to only and security the CIA the NSA the military and
I you see you see it mentioned every so often, but
Not an awful lot, but yeah, I bring that up between the three of us
I would I would never try and ambush and some pirate with questions along those lines
But I think it's I think it's interesting how you know, there's there's another there's another side to red hat that really doesn't get covered
Well, he's on arm development side, so I don't I don't really think you would probably be involved in any of that
So it's a you know arm becoming more and more popular embedded device. You don't eat you don't know sure surely those agencies will be
But very
Interested at some point. I mean, I think with everything going to tablets and smartphone where I I think in 10 years
It may be the closest thing that we have to desktop computer is one of these little arm boxes with with an external
USB drive plug your TV
I don't you know, I don't know if the desktop computers we know it has a future or at least if it does it would be incredibly expensive
You know where where everybody's got one now maybe one out of 10 to one out of 20 people
Yeah, that that may be true. I haven't I don't know the television set now and last time I owned a TV was
2007 and that would sit for a couple months
So I'm really not up on what's happening with televisions
Well, I think the future there'll be a whole lot of convergence with
computer monitors and TVs
I bet it'll come to a point where there really won't be much difference in price
For that matter, I think for a lot of people's I mean TV now any TV you buy now is is is just a computer
You just don't you don't have access to
You know any normal kind of interface, but you know a TV right now is just a computer in the monitor or not
I think give it a few years there'll be more and more they will you know, they will they will bring out those computer functions
So instead of people buying two devices their their TV will be there to echo echo echo echo
I'm sorry. I was trying to see if I had I had some
Web page opened at one point which was a listing
I think from redhat.com, but I'm not sure that listed all the
upcoming conferences or
Trade shows that they were going to either participate in or have a booths
Have representatives at and there was an awful lot of
You know, there's an awful lot of ordinary commercial data big data kind of places, but there was a number of
Things that might have a different aspect of them spying in that scene
Yeah, I just opened up the indiegogo thing for
Jonathan. He raised six thousand eight hundred and eleven dollars of the fifteen thousand and
I don't know at one point I tried to
See if some of these places I don't remember if it was Kickstarter or indiegogo to see if there was some kind of way
You could follow up to see
with the money is going to and
one of the places again
I don't remember if it was Kickstarter or indiegogo there were there was like a
Comments section and you could ask questions, but whether the
people at the
At the fundraising place
Whether the people that were raising trying to raise the funds would reply which
You know you kind of hit a remits
So I don't know if there's a way there for Jonathan to publicize
On this indiegogo thing what the money is what money he has actually received and what he has
spent the money on
I mean, that's my point. It's like you know johnson's always been awful and vicious to the reaching
You know his goals
You know and breathe they got to be paid or what 50 grand the year
At least work on this I can't imagine anybody to less and
You know, I can't imagine six grand is going to make a significant dent in you know, leaving the
You know, I divergent version of work and said I think I'd keep parping on this
But I think you know, it'll be a lot better spent with that list of other pat
You know the other software that does not play well for doesn't pay a bounty on
Getting people submit patches of course just because you have somebody work out a patch
Doesn't it's going to be except because it's accessibility is not high priority obviously for for these other packages or they would work with
Anyway, I think he's going to be pretty busy between now and
Beginning of April when knelt
Actually happened so you know, maybe maybe sometime after knelt was over
We can ask him to come on that's just that's just thought maybe maybe he's got three time that he would want to dedicate to
Coming on the podcast, but you certainly given the option to wait until after after knelt
I think you're right now that would be time, you know, to see how all this is worked out
You know cuz yet, you know, you want better voices for through orca and six grand. I don't think we get very far on that
Now there is this other
There's other project talk about on hbr the South America's like one three something and again
It sounds like these guys are through their law didn't Jonathan or the other way around but everybody's like no
This is my project not non-interested cooperated with
You know somebody else even the same goal especially since the southern project did you know was interested in
In trying to month, you know, they had they had the preversion and the premium version. They were trying to monitor us
Did you hear that one shattered was what it was one of the
Interviews that Kim did they you mean the what you said about the South American and voices. I don't remember
I don't remember noticing that in any of the thought them interviews. No, I don't think this is far as them
I think this was this was something else. Let let me see if I can bring up hbr without
The crashing mumble
Called at night. All right. Thanks. Thanks for hosting. Thank for being the host
Did we ever come up with some intro well-true music? I have I haven't neglected that
I have not looked so we should probably just throw him putting out this episode without
Well, we could leave it up to the host heaven
So whoever whoever hosts the next time gets to choose the intro and after of music, which I think is a good
Good way for me to never be a host, right?
Yeah, you could you could be our
Dan you can just
Click claim the shirt
Your lousy-tasted music up close you can host it. Well, I'm gonna head out. I'll show you guys later. Night
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