Episode: 3298
Title: HPR3298: Poisoning The Well
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3298/hpr3298.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-24 20:24:05

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3298 for Wednesday the 24th of March 2021.
Today's show is entitled Poisoning the Well. It is hosted by some guy on the internet and is
about 25 minutes long and carries a clean flag. The summary is shut down, the negativity in our
community. This episode of HPR is brought to you by an honest host.com. Get 15% discount on all
shared hosting with the offer code HPR15. That's HPR15. Better web hosting that's honest and fair
at Anonesthost.com.
Hello ladies and gentlemen and welcome to another episode of Hacker Public Radio. I am your host
some guy on the internet and I am happy to be back. Today we're just going to wing it. I got a
couple of things I've been thinking about but I haven't been able to record in a while and I keep
thinking to myself if I only keep thinking about this rather than hit the record button it is
never going to become an episode so my best bet is to get out here and try and wing it and hopefully
it is successful. So first up let's talk about poisoning the well. What I mean by that is the well
for us, us open source enthusiasts, computer files, geeks nerds, whatever you want to call it.
It's basically the technology rather it be software based or hardware based. Whenever we have
new software new features I'm going to stick with software because I'm not a really big hardware
guy but you know hardware is included it's just that I deal mostly with software. Whenever we have
new software coming out there's always going to be that voice somewhere out there that attempts
to poison the well. Now let me set the stage for you guys here. I want you to imagine a bunch of
users in a digital plane somewhere and the well is the software event there who is releasing regular
updates. All the users are around the well waiting for the next update. Everyone's generally happy
they're communicating with those around them. They're friends whatever online and everybody's
relatively happy you know they don't have to pay for it. They receive regular security updates
and new features everything kind of works out. Now the poisoning of the well would be the individual
who does not contribute in any positive manner. They come about with negative statements and a good
example of this would be unity. I wasn't in open source when unity came out however I read a little
bit about unity I talked with some people who were in open source during the time that unity came
out and for those of you who don't know what unity is it's the the desktop environment that canonical
created when GNOME switch from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 so you know there was a big uproar when the changes
from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 so canonical filled the gap by creating their own DE which was a well polished
DE short for desktop environment. From understanding most of the users that used unity were happy
however they were fairly silent they were just enjoying the software. Now keep in mind you didn't
have to pay for it you got security updates new features loads and loads of good stuff there
that's the well canonicals providing the well through the Ubuntu desktop known as unity the
users who are poisoning the well however other users that are excuse me the users that are
poisoning the well are those that arrive and contribute negatively by constantly bashing it
constantly giving all sorts of negative commentary oh look here's a thing here's amazon here's an app
that is not harming anyone at any point but we don't like it and we're going to trash the entire
thing because of this app why it could be beneficial to many it is a way to make money because
the desktop was losing money most people don't know but the Ubuntu desktop version not a Ubuntu
server but Ubuntu desktop did not make any money from I think up until like 2018 so you know it
they're losing money to being propped up by server basically and uh you know here you have this
thing for free that they're creating to help you because ganome changed and they wanted to have some
control and you know going forward and what happens well people ruined it they poisoned the well
they got up and they just start spotting all this negativity and of course developers are out there
on these different platforms reading all of this negativity and what happens well to avoid the
the platform to avoid the well being completely contaminated they eventually got rid of unity
which was a great resource for the community and they brought back an om3 to think that people
originally railed against but by that time when the normally quiet users realized that they're
losing this well polished thing I mean of course you know people tried to speak up then but at
that point it's too late the damage has been done they have already poisoned the well now in a way
I do hold the community partially responsible for this because when we do see negativity pop up like
I I am often on different subs and I get it that we the community members don't actually run this
up there is a sub maintainer or moderator or whoever whatever you want to call them there's a
person that actually runs this up we the community though we do not directly control this up we do
have a voice we we should be more vocal those of us that remain quiet and definitely speak out
against this negative influence that is attempting to poison our well I really don't like the idea
of open source developers putting all their time and effort into creating this great software
and then some bonehead who who who likes a different bit of software coming on over and poisoning
the well for those who appreciate what they have even if they cannot you know donate at the moment
they're still able to benefit and keep up in the world most most people I think do understand how
important free software is free as in freedom not free as in free beer but we're going to also
include the free beer and this portion as well let me just give for those of you who do not know
understand this a guy like me a free software was around back when I first got into computing maybe
it wasn't I just didn't know about it but if it were if it was around during that time and I
and I had some sort of insight on it I could have been in a much better position today I wanted
to get into programming back in the day however it was crazy expensive the books were like 80 bucks
a pop plus when you had the goals spent like hundreds of dollars for the software the the programming
environment it was just insane you could not just willy-neely get into programming like you could
today and I think a lot of that's because of free software I mean think about a company's like
Microsoft used to have visual studio the programming environment up for like four or five hundred
bucks and back in the day like in the 90s that was way too much money man we couldn't you couldn't
afford that I mean after all you already spent like 1500 on a computer you know and computer
only had like a four gigabyte hard drive but I mean it was it was rough back then man technology
wasn't as far as long as it is now but now that I am aware of open source technology I try to bring
others into and I have them understand look this is infinite opportunity at your fingertips right
now you have knowledge people are providing so much information for you right now you you don't
have to worry about the digital gap links can run on literally anything so you don't need the
latest and greatest PC to be able to operate in today's world because of Linux now you've got
Linux you got great software with Linux basically everything that somebody can do on a Mac or
Windows PC you can do on Linux and then some you understand you can go above and beyond at any point
and you you don't even aside from the hardware you don't even have to make an upfront investment
to do that that is extremely powerful now imagine somebody coming in and start talking massive
amounts of crap like if Microsoft did it if Microsoft came up and started just talking all sorts
of crap all that Linux software master was all this stuff is so buggy and you know filled filled
with vulnerabilities you know sure they don't have viruses but they got tons of vulnerabilities
if you use it you're crazy you're all your information's gonna up on the dark web blah blah blah blah
if Microsoft did that we would be up in arms however we're perfectly fine with members of our
community straight up urinating in our well we need to stop the poisoning of the well whenever
somebody tries that we need to shut them down we need to ask that the moderators look if this
person isn't going to be helpful in this community you know what I mean I'm not saying get rid of
freedom or speech or anything crazy like that but what I am saying is you're gonna ruin it for all
the people coming here trying to benefit from this not to mention the people who are doing this
without a paycheck do you understand what I'm saying the least you could do is have a little
gratitude you had a chance to use the software without even paying for it's available to you the
least you could do is be you know appreciative and then on top of that on top of all of the hell
we get in free software imagine the arguments from new users that want to come to Linux and they say
things like well you know I have to use this bit of proprietary software but it's just not
available on Linux I'd love to use links I've tried Linux however I can't use it for professional
work simply because the software that I must use isn't there you have great alternatives but
my company requires this and it's not there the good news with that is most of the time you know
today 2021 companies are coming around to open well I won't say open source but they're coming
around the Linux you know they're not open sourcing all of their stuff but they are they're providing
their software to Linux severe what's he called them they were talking about they went at a
bunch flutter flutter was the other electron you know they're basically creating apps that can
run on multiple platforms now a guy like me would be saying great that means those users who don't
have the software or who did not at one time had the software they needed to be able to operate
full-time in a free environment now they do have the software and it's easier for companies to
begin producing this software and providing it on multiple platforms you know iOS Android
Linux Windows Mac everything you can all benefit from this software I understand it is not
free as in freedom this software however it is a step in the right direction they are on the
freedom platform it is software that can help users understand the benefit of being on a freedom
based platform now what we have to do is work with those companies in a positive way you know
constructive criticism and things that help them to understand you know the reason we're so safe
and comfortable here on our freedom based platform is because of the freedom and security we have
we know that our software is safe because the code can be examined by any one of the tens of
thousands of brilliant minds that work in open source I mean a lot of the programmers that work
on proprietary software also work on open source software you get what I mean so it we have
tons of talent here why don't you join us here you know what I mean join us and just just give
it a try open source one thing and just watch how wildly popular it becomes watch how it takes off
and then learn about the different monetizing strategies of you know the the they do have software
as a service which I'm not too I'm not a big fan of that and I stay away from that because I believe
it is just it's legalized ransomware if you ask me an example of that is like say Microsoft Office
and I'm not bashing Microsoft Office I'm only just giving my opinion what I believe here so
I believe that when you have a software as a service someone begins using that software to get
their work done and then when they can't afford it due to hard times like say COVID or whatever
comes along and they they just can't make that next payment right now all of a sudden they're locked out
you see what I mean unless they pay you they can't even get work done to to start making more money
again you get what I mean so you you're basically held ransom here and it it's terrible I really do
not like this model however I do like companies being able to sell services like say red hat when I
get that there's a lot of argument over the centos stream and again poison in the well all day long
over there I get it that red hat eventually came in and said that they were going to take over
centos and make it a official thing that they were going to be providing a feature for feature
complete free open version of rel through centos which was a community based project first you know
rel kind of took it over or not kind of they did I get all of that with the history of it I read
up on it not not really that I participated in it but I just read up on it that's still however
does not mean that we need to just shine and and trash rel for this move understand they're still
trying to provide through centos stream a way for people to benefit and for themselves think about
it what company you know today have you ever went to a restaurant that gave you the food for free
and then you just decide to pay them whenever you can it's insane but in free software this this can
it it it it's it does not work fully I will admit it's crazy you don't you don't make money
by giving away the product however this is open source it's it's a unique beast and rail needs
to make money now they found a way for it to benefit both the users who cannot pay or maybe they
just don't even want to pay it they found a way for them to benefit by having a free product that
they don't have to pay for and rail can benefit because if there are bugs yes what these users
using the free product will most certainly want to those bugs fix one day so they'll be reporting
like crazy trying to get these these things ironed out rail benefits by you know basically hey we
got a a free a free testing base if you will I know it's a little more elegant than how I'm
putting it however I'm not a programmer I'm not a system admin anything like that so I'm just
giving it to you as some guy on the internet but yeah you know rail provides this thing you get
to use it for free you get the kickback bugs down the rail they fix them for free so you get the
free patches the security updates everything and they're the users who are paying a subscription
well they don't have to worry about things fluctuating as much they're going to be on the more
static because apparently that word stable gets used a lot they're going to be on the more
static version of rail you know where things are a little bit more predictable and hopefully the bugs
will be ironed out before they hit rail but the centauss guys will probably and well they will the
centauss stream excuse me the centauss stream guys will encounter the the wrinkles before rail
ever will and you know what it works it is a way for free software you you can still use it for
free and benefit now if you're just a guy trying to learn about free software trying to figure out
how this stuff works and you just want to run your own testing environment this is perfect you don't
have to pay for anything you still get the benefit from it this is awesome however if you're
that guy that's already making six figures you know you're running your own business and you're
just like I'm just gonna cut costs and use centauss because you know I don't have to pay for excuse
let me clear my throat all right I apologize for that but yeah you know if you're the business owner
and you're just using free and open source software freezing freedom because it cuts the cost
you know it helps the bottom line which it's fine you know there's no there's no rules against
doing that I think the thing that what we're trying to say here though is I mean you're benefiting
that much you're you're pulling in a very very nice salary here the least you could do is buy
license right I mean you can just get I mean you can get a couple of licenses and keep your
operations safe and secure with support and you know it'll it'll it'll all work out for everyone
but there are some people who are benefiting that much pulling down nice money using open source
software and the moment you say okay well you know we're just gonna shift it just a little bit
we're just gonna tweak how this works just a look all of a sudden they're the ones with their
guns and knives out they do not want to have to pay for anything screw you forget about what it
takes for you to run a company because it here's the thing if if I'm just gonna hypothetically if
rail were to say they were going out of business because they they're funding all of this
free and open source software that isn't making money say for instance rail again we're speaking
hypothetically here if they were to say they're going out of business because people are all going
for the free thing and nobody's getting this this subscription guess what oh that's so sad
oh that's that's so terrible we really got to get an alternative we got to get an alternative
this is terrible can we get one or two people to donate now we don't need that we don't need that
enough for the hypothetical nonsense that was probably a terrible thing remember if the if the
examples are horrible remember you're hearing them from some guy on the internet
also you know one other thing that I noticed with these massive companies in open source
like say blender i thought what's another one again is a good one as well but creda is a good one
they're all being funded by super super big companies right um even mozilla they're the
mozilla i keep saying it wrong is mozilla but you know mozilla mozilla whatever they're they're pulling
in all this like uh i think a vast majority of their income to fund the project comes from like
massive companies like facebook uh google uh microsoft you know all the companies we claim are bad
or they're proprietary and all the things they've done in the past microsoft each Linux you know
these companies are keeping open source alive because the donations are not coming in you know
i mean if let's let's face it if if we could just go ahead and see the numbers for what users of
the software are you know providing for the the company to stay afloat versus what the
super massive companies which I get it google is obviously going to have far more money than
some guy on the internet right so i think that we we don't fail to understand it however it does
not excuse us from not donating you understand we still have an obligation to keep our software free
now once these massive companies start gaining more and more influence i mean stop and think about
it they're writing checks the size of you know skyscrapers eventually companies might see it as well
look i get it i'm going to still provide a free as in uh free beer software but google's paying way
too much money and they want that free as in freedom to you know take a hike so if that ever happens
you can't blame them they got to pay bills they got to put food on the table they got families man
you got it you got to donate you got to give something i mean it it doesn't have to be much but
i think we should have though what i think we should have and here's an idea i've been tossing around
as well say for instance if we use like the i'm just going to use this group because i know about it
the free software foundation if they created a section on the site for people who want to sign up
and just you know is it'll be like almost like a patreon kind of thing where you just obligate
a certain amount of money per month and then here are all the projects that'll be able to benefit
from that these are the the the projects that have signed up and qualified to benefit from this
this thing that i'm talking about let's just call it the freedom project i don't know what
us to call it right now but you know the freedom project yeah you got a bunch of just users not
massive companies right massive companies don't need this kind of thing they can just fund whatever
they want they want new features they can just get pick up the phone dial up get a developer and
say hey look i'm willing to dump massive check and you're wallet right now if you create said feature
you know what i mean so they don't need this but for us the users who want the company or the
developers to understand look we want to pay for our software we want this software to remain
free we want you to understand the community appreciates you even though there's a lot of poisoning
happening that we still have to deal with we want you to know that look there is money and open
source you understand there's money in freedom so that's what we you know if we can create a
project like that with these projects you know they they sign up to qualify i'm guessing they'll
have to be like some sort of vote system or something where all the people who are donating the
money every single month could just sort of say like hey maybe you get a point for every donation
right and at the end of a certain period you just get to vote on a project like these are the
projects that are up for vote this time the project maintainers have put out a list of things like
these are things we'll do if we get the money you know if we get the money we'll be able to provide
xyz as far as features probably in a whole new point release worth of features and you know
put us in good position for the next whatever you know i'm not a programmer so it's kind of hard
to think about the stuff but you get what i'm saying but i really do think that making sure that
the developers understand that the community are more than just interested in using software but we're
interested in paying for software to keep software free as in freedom otherwise i'm telling you
massive check from google or massive check from microsoft will eventually start to win people over
think about the amount of people who are probably going through job transitions because the company
they were once with you know just went under and now you know they went a few weeks or months
without a paycheck before they made the transition they're maintaining this one thing that's very
popular on github google's been in their inbox a few times telling them look that's great you
want to do open source but let me tell you what you could be doing if you just were to you know
just fork that project and you know come work for us you know what i mean is you know just
created a totally different thing even you know what depending on the license you may not be
able to fork and close it but you know just come work for us we'll show you how to get it done
and i mean seriously even even if he did fork and went close with it i mean he's the one that created
it who who's going to complain is he going to complain on his own project you know what i mean so
so i'll be but seriously this is a real this is a real problem i think we got to look at this and say
let's start something to where the community is seen as not just caring and sending positive vibes
toward maintainers and developers but also putting you know food on the table you know we we need
to compete against massive check from google maybe we can't do as much but showing something is
enough you know what i mean they they've been a lot of these guys been working with the nothing
all this time so i think that's about all for me right now and i've rambled on and given you plenty
of diarrhea of the mouth thankfully you cannot smell my breath because i just hopped up and started
recording so my pop filter probably needs to be thrown away but it has been a pleasure speaking
with you guys i'm gonna go ahead and start getting ready for work now remember donate to open
source you have been listening to some guy on the internet here on the official hacker public radio
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