Episode: 469
Title: HPR0469: TiT Radio 011 - puppies, tails, and a gnome 
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0469/hpr0469.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-07 21:16:27

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Truth is stranger than picture.
This is the truth. This is replace.
Believe it or not.
Bedrooms in the canton of Grison, Switzerland have tiny windows opened when the occupant is dying.
So his soul can escape. They leave it or not.
In a moment I'll tell you about cows who grow their own gold teeth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
In a moment I'll tell you the truth.
People will be confused with the goose who laid the golden eggs,
with the cows in the state of Washington, who housed a grown gold-steed one.
Amazing! Well a matter of fact, these bovines graced in the alder Creek Basin near a famous school mine.
And as they chewed, they picked up gold dust embedded in the ground.
The chemical combination of lime, the cow's teeth,
in the cow's teeth, and the gold dust created a perfect and permanent and valuable gold
devil crown, they leave it or not.
Hello, I'm Austin B, and welcome to Tip Radio episode 11 for October 17th,
2019. If you're a first time listener, this is a potluck round table series on Hacker Public Radio.
And I just won't let everybody know, Tip Radio also has an org feed, just navigate your browser to tipradio.info
and underneath the cow logo, click on Feed Bag.
Okay, let's meet tonight's round table, Clot 2. Hello everyone.
Peter 64.
Jedi.
Asmith.
I've got even a monster bait.
J-Man.
Hello.
330.
Howdy, howdy.
And Pigwall.
Hey.
And I just got a quick announcement here.
A world of goo has turned one year old, and to celebrate, 2D boy has a special offer until October 19th, which is Monday.
You can get the game for any price you want.
You just go over to the website and click on Buy.
And if you want to like pay him a penny, $1, $5, whatever, $20, you can get the game.
And it's only good until Monday.
So this is only good for our aug listeners and our live listeners.
Because by the time people in EPR hear this, it's going to be expired.
That's a great game too.
I've played it on the French computer.
It's really fun.
I don't think I'm going to go ahead and buy it for 10 bucks.
That seems fair, doesn't it?
It's a year old.
Yeah, and it's like native Linux support, which is pretty cool.
Does it work on 64-bit?
Good question.
It's a very good question.
I'll probably buy it anyway just to have it around.
I could at least play it on my triple EPC or something.
All right.
How about that feedback, Clot 2?
We got one, didn't we?
Yeah, we did.
Actually, it's from 51-50.
That's the person's email handle.
And they say that Clot 2 inquired as to the profit incentive for the ViewCAT, which this is me.
It was that radio shack thing that people were telling me about one episode, a couple episodes ago.
So I'm going to scanner that they were giving out at radio shack.
And 51-50 says, it wasn't so much to look up product pages using the item bar code.
I think that was an afterthought and only work for participating advertisers.
Advertisers and publishers, Parade Magazine, the big one, would include a bar code
at the bottom of an ad or article in place of or in conjunction with the to learn more, go to this URL tag.
Advertisers had discovered many of their customers were simply incapable of reading a URL and typing it into the address bar of their browser.
So ViewCAT was just a way to connect web pages to the print media.
Today, I still have customers who can't load a web page unless this is linked to whatever homepage the system came with.
I tried and never did find a way to use mine as a generic barcode scanner.
I know it's still somewhere at the bottom of my closet.
Next time I uncover it, I'll find out if Linux recognizes it.
That's the email about ViewCAT, fascinating information.
I just remember when I had to think I could scan anything in the cover or anything they had a barcode it would fire up.
I don't really know that much about barcodes. I don't know how much information you can store in a barcode.
So possibly they started associating websites with more barcodes than maybe advertised or that scanner was just translating anything into some random website.
Was it a pre-random website? Do you remember or was it something actually connected to what you would scan?
It was connected to what you would scan. If you scanned a Mountain Dew scan, it would take you to the Mountain Dew website.
Maybe they're just packing more information into those things than people realize.
Either way, it's a weird idea, I think.
But I can see how, yeah, literally some people just can't seem to navigate their web browser.
So they wouldn't need like some hardware interface for that.
I've seen people struggle with that URL bar before.
All right. Thanks for that feedback and call it too. Thanks for reading it.
And what's your story for today or topic?
Boot.Colonel.org. It's a very, very cool little project.
Obviously something that I'm going to sponsor by or under the wing of colonel.org.
Just the page where we all get our Linux colonel from, one way or another.
And boot.Colonel.org is a project to make.
From what I can gather, it's to make pixie booting just really, really simple.
Because basically all you do is download an image file of boot.Colonel.org.
Like they're a little, I guess they're calling it BKO.
And I think it's like, it could be wrong, but it means a tiny, tiny little download that you have to do.
And then you can boot a computer using this boot file.
And it will essentially boot, you know, as long as you know what network you are able to boot to,
it will boot via the interweb to some kind of live environment where you can actually
either install Linux from or maybe diagnose things from or whatever, just depending.
Right now they've got like Debian, a Debian environment, Ubuntu, damn small Linux,
Kinopix, and Fedora 11.
So is it a full desktop or just a shell that you boot into?
Actually a full, well, it depends.
Like I know that Fedora 11, it says it's just single user mode, and I think it's just a shell.
But like damn small Linux, you actually get the full desktop that you boot to.
So it just depends on which one you're choosing.
And presumably which like, because you can also use the little, I guess it's called,
GPixie, GPXE.
You can use that also to just boot into any, I guess, pixie boot environment.
So if you have, if you know the address of the Debian, you know, net install server,
you can use GPXE to boot there.
But in terms of what they're doing at boot.crown.org,
yeah, you actually do get a full desktop in some instances.
Okay, this is pretty neat.
So you can put it on a CD or a USB.
Yeah.
That's cool. Or a floppy.
Right.
People still use them.
Apparently, yes.
So this image you download, it has all this on there, it has Debian Ubuntu,
damn small Linux, canopics, and Fedora all on one image,
or do you have to go out and download all that stuff separate?
Well, it's on the server, if I'm not mistaken.
All you're doing is downloading the, I guess, the shell to enable you to boot, you know, via a network.
And you can go into whatever server with these live environments on it that you choose.
So these are remote servers that they're supplying you?
Are it supplying the person using it?
Or do you put it on your own server somewhere?
Yeah, they are supplying the server's remote.
Unless, of course, you want to put it on your own, in which case you can do that.
But then I guess you don't technically need this necessarily.
If you've got your own Pixie server, I mean, at least the Toshiba that I recently acquired
has something, you know, in the BIOS you can set, okay, look at the network card to see if there's a local environment to boot from.
So I wouldn't need this.
But if you want to be able to boot off of some remote server with a live environment on it,
often Washington University or something, you could do that with this GPXC.
It's like a 220 kilobyte download.
It's nothing. It's just what I can tell it's basically a really kind of fancy boot loader.
Well, it sounds pretty neat, but trying to understand what it's for.
You know, what is it just to really just try out things?
I think it would be more of like a diagnosis tool and also probably an installation tool as well.
For a DD?
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of cool because this kind of flexibility, I mean, I don't know.
If you can look at a project and say, well, yeah, so, you know, what would I use this for?
I mean, that means you've by now gotten so many options in Linux and the way that you can install it or use it on a computer
that you're literally running out of things to do with all your options.
And I mean, that's a good thing. That means that we've got a lot of options.
And that's not something that every OS, I think, really has that many ways to boot, you know, your computer into that OS.
I mean, Linux just, I mean, there's just practically anything you have.
You know, if you've got a little bit of know-how, you can boot the thing into Linux one way or another.
That's a good thing.
Not that you'll need every day of your life, but the one time you need it, you're going to love that it's there.
Yeah, I'm going to have to try it out just to fully understand.
Yeah, I'm going to try it out pretty soon here.
All right, cool. Anything else on this one?
Uh, nope. That's it. Just something I came across and thought was really cool.
Nice find, and how about you, Peter, 64?
Yeah, I haven't really done much this week.
One thing I did want to have a play with was the name 3.
Now, running Arch, it's been in the AUR, where you can just get a build, I think it is, and pull it down.
And I already started installing it on the laptop and have a play with it.
But still not true, Arch and AUR took me bloody half a day because you have to go through
and well, I had to edit quite a few of the pack builds to get it to work, how to read a fair bit of documentation.
And when I finally did get it running, it was very slow on the laptop.
But I think that's because, for some reason, under Arch, the Intel drivers aren't working particularly well.
I think club 2, you mentioned that that could be the version because I was running the 2.9.
I did go back to the 2.7, and it did make it slightly better, but typically it was nowhere as good as under Zeus.
But anyway, with Game 3, I was talking to the J-Man, and he pointed out that one of the best ways to sort of install it and have a look.
And when we're talking Game 3, we're talking just the shell.
Which I understand is that what's that mean, J-Man?
It doesn't actually have any of the applications that you can expect.
Yeah, the way they have it laid out is with 2.28, most distros will have the shell in their repose, and you can just run that on top of 2.28.
But really, once they get going, they have to add in support for their zeitgeist searching, and they have geolocation libraries and all that stuff.
Yeah, and what I can understand, or what I'm not entirely sure, this is right, but we should set first in a Ubuntu 10a4 and Fedora 13 from what have been out to read.
But anyway, there's the simplest way to install it, and I hadn't heard of this, and I was talking a few plates actually in the IRC channel, and they hadn't come across it.
Either it's a J-hage build, J-Linsey, that you pointed out.
So if you go over to live.nome.org, for at least J-hage build.
And really, if you follow the distractions on the page, it's a matter of, I think, about four steps.
One thing's very important, though, if you want to try this out, you have to get rid of the G-stream a bad plug-in.
And trust me, if you don't, you won't get this thing built.
And if you do it through the arch, A-U-V-A, you have to remove that, too.
There's obviously some problem there that got to fix.
Now, I understand that I'm not a G-name user.
In actual fact, I don't think I've ever used the IRC here.
So I don't get over to live.nome.org, J-H-Build, go over to live.nome.org,
forward slash capital G-name shell.
This is where you'll find the simple instructions on how to do it.
Anyway, I understand I'm not a G-name user, but I just wanted to have a look at it.
And after playing around with it for probably 15, 20 minutes, I must say,
people who have left G-name, and from what I understand, there's quite a few, go over to KDE4.
Purely, I'd say a lot of that's to do for the IRC and the KDE4 office.
I see a lot of people going back.
Now, that's only my personal opinion, because look-wise, it's pretty.
Now, usability-wise, it depends.
Are there any screenshots anywhere online that we can see the beauty that is G-nome 3?
Yeah, I think if you just go to that live.nome.org, G-name shell on the right-hand side,
I think it might point them out, does it?
Okay, of course I'll check it out.
Somewhere around there.
Okay.
Yeah, it's actually got a half-way down that page, you'll see screenshots.
Cool.
Current status.
But anyway, one thing I felt found a little bit disconcerting.
When you go up the top, you have your taskbar, and on the left-hand side it has activities
which is typically like, you know, KDE start menu.
When you click on that, it goes into this overview mode, which is where I think in KDE,
they might call it sort of, it's like that mosaic.
When all your applications become small sort of icons, you know what I mean?
On the desktop, say, yeah, so if you've got four desktop's workspaces,
and then you move up to your activities, it goes into this mosaic look,
or what did I call it before?
I think it was there, I think.
Yeah, that's what I was looking for, I suppose.
Yeah.
It goes into this overview mode.
Now I didn't get that.
Because that is the trademark term by Apple.
Oh, is it?
Okay, yeah.
But people understand.
Yeah, like I said, it's a little bit disconcerting at first,
and after playing with the 15-20 minutes, I still watch and use to it.
Every time I went up to this activity, all the desktop's appeared,
and I've got this menu down the left-hand side, but give it a while,
and I think it will certainly grow on you.
But the first impression, yeah, I think it has moved,
going into the 21st century.
Because I always thought, your name is a little bit older looking,
and honestly, not particularly impressive.
But once again, I never used it that much anyway.
Also, I've read a lot of things like, you know, they say that, you know,
it's going to improve your workflow and the usability of your whole GUI.
Now, yeah, that could be the case, because when you go into this overview mode,
it's quite easy to drag applications from one workspace to the other.
However, if you've been used to fluxbox or something,
and you know, you set up your keys file to simply hit keys and send applications
to workspace as well, I really don't see that as a usability improvement.
But maybe for game it is.
Tell me to you. What do you reckon?
You've been running for quite some time.
Yeah, I think a lot of people are going to like it and some won't.
But for the most part, it's pretty nice as an upgrade.
Yeah, I candy wise, certainly.
Well, from what I've seen of the game,
and I hadn't seen the game for quite some time, it's a hell of an improvement.
I mean, obviously, I think people know that I'm a fluxbox man.
And I can't some of self-changing.
But if I was a KDE user, I think I could quite happily get used to GNOME.
Pretty quickly, that's for sure.
This I will talk about again later on when it gets a bit more established.
But certainly, anyway, there's a link.
Go on, it's very easy to build with that JH build.
Yeah, it seems pretty cool.
I'm trying to figure out if you're right about the whole people switching away from GNOME,
running to KDE.
I thought it was kind of the inverse, actually.
Yeah, I don't know.
I seem to think a lot of...
Well, if I was a KDE user,
I would purely move to GNOME 3 just to get away from whatever 330 uses.
So you've gone over to KDE, I'm going the other way.
Yeah, so you think a lot of people left KDE when it went to 4?
KDE name?
Famously Linus, 4 of all, did and has Larry Bushy from going Linux did, I know.
Yeah, so I don't know.
My impression was that some people were jumping ship.
I never heard anyone say it the other way.
Oh, yeah, I thought one person went the other way.
Yeah, I thought originally a lot of people,
when it was just 4, a lot of people didn't like it.
Although, what's...
What's his name?
KDE 4 Black?
Aaron Psycho.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah, I mean, he said that 4 is not for the average user.
He went to great decks to say that.
I remember him saying that on PILTS,
that 4.0 is not going to be for the average user and all this sort of stuff.
And people still complained about it.
Even after they're told, that's what it makes me.
Well, I guess that's the other question then.
I mean, when is GNOME 3.0?
You know, when is that...
I mean, there's this whole desire, I guess,
within open source to release or release often.
But I imagine they're going to try to avoid a KDE 4-like backlash.
So I wonder what they're going to be doing about that.
Oh, I actually could read some of that somewhere,
but I can't even remember what they said.
But in saying that,
challenging the switch from GNOME,
what's out of the moment?
Is it 2.28 or 2.26?
What's the actual wonder?
Yeah, the new release is 2.28.
Yeah.
So the release...
The jump from 2.28 to 3 is going to be nowhere near as big as...
3.5 to 4 was just almost the total rewrite of KDE, wasn't it?
Correct, yeah.
And part of that from what I understand is because Q itself was a big change.
You know, Q4 from Q3 was such a huge jump.
I'm wondering...
I mean, I know GNOME 3 is using clutter a lot.
Are there going to be big gaps in like, you know, GTK 2 to GTK 3,
or is there no GTK 3?
This is just GNOME 3.
Okay, I have no idea.
It's not going to create a big problem.
GNOME, they're pretty conservative anyway.
And they state it from the beginning that they want this to be a gradual and smooth transition.
Although it seems like their UI is changing really, really drastically.
I mean, at least from these screenshots that I'm seeing.
Yeah, the UI change is pretty big, but they don't think that it's going to throw users nearly as bad as KDE.
Okay.
But with KDE, it wasn't just you, it was the applications made.
They seemed to make all the applications made that jump too, didn't they?
Whereas this is still going to run a lot of the 2.2-weight applications.
Is that the way it works?
Yeah, everything will pretty much work the same as they move across.
Yeah, now when you've discussed this too, I can't remember if it's on Linux cranks or TIT about,
this is going to use OpenGL to draw the windows and all that sort of stuff.
You're going to need a 3D capable cart to run this, aren't you?
Yeah, the presenter at Ohio Linux first mentioned that they're trying to do a fallback to a non-accelerated metacity.
But I'm not sure how that's going to work.
Yeah, we're just looking at the performance.
And once again, when I say this, this is still only what this is.
But you know what, what would you call this?
This is no way ready for release yet.
On the laptop, yeah, it's really sad.
I mean, obviously, that might improve that.
Yeah, I tell you, it wouldn't be unchallenged on that alone.
I mean, just from all the different screenshots I'm trying to wrap my head around,
is there a traditional desktop?
I mean, everything that they're showing me has kind of weird interface and stuff down the side.
Is there just a normal desktop?
Yeah, I don't know.
That's what you're saying in those screenshots is what I've got running.
Every time you move up to the activities, you get all that menu stuff there, the left hand side.
Well, that's the answer then probably.
So that's the activities environment.
But there is a tradition.
Yeah, that's right.
Desktop environment.
Yeah.
Once you move away from that, like you might have an application or whatever,
then all of a sudden that'll disappear and you'll back to just your desktop.
It has that menu bar at the top, menu bar at the bottom and your whole workspace in front of you.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Yeah.
The whole overlay is to try to get people to realize that they have multiple desktop,
right?
I don't think many people actually use them.
Yeah, people see like all their applications disappear off their desktop or off their screen,
you know, and they just don't understand what's happened.
And when you started for the first time, you're only going to have one desktop until you click that little plus
and it starts adding more.
Oh, interesting.
That's an interesting idea.
I like that.
So maybe I'm wrong in this, but it's just going to make comp his like obsolete or at least open home.
Yeah, it sounds like they're integrating all that stuff into GNOME.
They're kind of like merging with that project or whatever.
So once this comes out, the only window manager you can use comp his on is probably XFCE.
Charlie, you mentioned something about that when we talked before, didn't you?
Yeah, the analyst said too bad.
Yeah, the comp is guys we're talking to the GNOME guys.
Well, it pretty much turned into we don't see a future for the comp his project.
That's what I'm saying.
You think I did more or less all this, didn't I?
Really?
Yeah, but I mean, you know, they're still going to probably be able to, I mean, their work was,
was a lot of it was experimental anyway.
And they just, they just kind of threw out or it seemed to me like they just threw out all these cool ideas for effects and stuff.
And I mean, they can still do that.
I'm sure.
I mean, they can probably just, they can probably kind of work with GNOME.
I would imagine on effect.
It seemed to me like it's a better, it's better to have it integrated and not, like it would be wrong.
But that's what it felt like to me back when I was using it more.
Yeah, and comp is, it just looks kind of bad when things go wrong.
Yeah.
When you have your title bar disappearing or you have screen tearing or something like that.
Yeah.
Charlie, did you something I didn't try?
You mentioned before where you click the plus and you get the extra workspaces.
And I feel like four workspaces.
And then you have that, when you go into that activities and you get the overview,
then there's the minus superimposed in the center of each workspaces.
If you've got applications open, oh, that minus didn't show, did it.
I was going to say what if you click the minus and you have applications open on that workspaces,
did they all disappear?
But no, you can't see that minus if you've got something open.
Don't worry about that question.
Hey, Monster B.
Yeah.
Looks like World of Boo is available for 64 bit in the default World of Boo setup.1.41.tar.gz.
There's a binary for a 32 and for 64.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
So did you go ahead and buy it?
Yeah, I went ahead and bought 20 bucks.
Can you download both of them?
You can download the tar.gz, the .deb and the RPM, all from the same screen.
So that's what I did.
I just figured I might as well because I wasn't sure what I was getting in each.
But the tar.gz is probably realistically the one I'll probably use.
And it's got everything that you need.
It looks like, I mean, to play the game, not to rewrite it or anything,
but it's got all the files.
That's pretty cool.
Would you pay a penny?
Yeah, they wouldn't allow, like, the half-sent thing.
You went all the way out.
Yeah, I went to one cent because I couldn't talk them down.
There was a flaw in their donation page.
It wouldn't allow fraction values.
I paid 20 bucks.
That's what their suggested donation was.
Well, I'm going for 10.
Yeah, I'll just have to eat like SpaghettiOs for the next week.
That's fine.
Was that it for your topic, Peter?
Yeah.
I'm definitely going to try it.
I like KDE and I doubt if anything can, you know, pull me away from KDE.
But I do like the screenshots.
I mean, I'll try it on on the trip we eat.
It looks like a netbook screen to me.
That's what I keep thinking.
Every time I see a screenshot, I'm like, is this on their netbook?
Or is this, like, the normal distribution?
But now I understand it was the activity screen, I guess, that we're seeing.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry.
I know that KDE or I'm person, but I just like to play with all this stuff.
And once again, it's a case of, you know, you never get a chance to get bored with the, like, windows.
Yeah.
There's always something new happening.
We all know how to run additional excessions, you know.
Instead of having two open, now we get it through you.
We have flash box KDE and game running.
Well, I just can't wait to it's standard on Ubuntu.
When does I say 10, when does I say 10.04?
I think the name is 4, why not?
Really?
Is that close?
Yeah, Fedora 13.
I thought I read.
When Fedora 13, you add, they should be the two first distributions of release as, you know, 10 packages.
Because that's a year from now, isn't it?
Well, 10, I follow myself.
I'll write for you.
Isn't it?
Yeah, I think so too.
I guess that's not that close.
It sounds like it feels close.
It'll be right around the corner, you know what I mean?
When you sell to ads and money, that's just a couple of slates.
Trust me.
Come forward when you get to LH.
Yes.
Well, ads are still awake.
Go ahead, ask.
If you're a story.
Okay.
Well, yeah, I was surprised to find that Puppy Linux is still alive and well.
And in active development.
That's Puppy Linux.
The fellow that originally came up with the Puppy Linux, Barry Collar.
He is back at the project now.
He tried to retire, but his replacement found it was too much work, so he's back doing it himself.
But while he was in Hyetus from the project, he had time to play around with a system
that he is named Wolf, W-O-O-F, allows him to build the Puppy packages from any of the
distros out there.
Where there's Debian, Ubuntu, Arch, Slackware, you name it.
And their new release, which is 4.3.1.
It has a modern kernel in it.
2.1.
I want to see what is it.
It's a 2.6.3.30.5 kernel.
It's got the SMP kernel for multi-processors, as well as the inter-processors.
Well, Puppy's always kind of moved to the beat of a different drum.
Looks like they're coming along as far as maturing.
Now, I don't know how much of that cut out, or if I'm still on there.
Now, you're still on?
Yeah, and it did.
All right, now.
Okay.
Well, nobody was interrupting me.
I couldn't tell.
We're too bloody scared, because we know how big your chainsaw is.
I didn't know that Puppy still includes, is it P-P-P for dial-up modems in there, somewhere?
I'm pretty sure it does, yeah.
Yeah.
Which they still support a dial-up modem, but they'll also support dial-up by 3G devices.
Oh, well.
Now, I've never had anything to do with Puppy.
Puppy's, like, really good for, it's small.
Like, you could put it on the dish-use plate, always play around with the little thumb drives, can't you?
Yeah.
But the cool thing about it is it feels like it feels like a normal, great little desktop.
I put it on my friend's old IBM once, her ThinkPad, and I mean, she was totally using it, loving it.
Yeah.
Anything I was thinking of, say you do a lot of traveling, I don't know, over there, but over here.
A lot of the hotels in that don't offer Wi-Fi, or wireless internet access.
So, if I was stuck in my hotel room, I could pull out my thumb drive, stick it in, I've got dial-up there,
and I'm a laptop, and I could just use Puppy just to get on the internet too easy for you to use this the other day.
Yeah, it is easy.
One thing nice about Puppy is it will let you install it to a USB device.
It's only has a hundred megabyte download to start with, but you can install the whole system on a USB device, you know, on a USB key,
and you can move it from computer to computer.
Really?
And they are supporting the EXT for a file system now too, so they are in active development, and they are keeping up, it looks like.
They still kind of do things their own way, but nothing says that way is absolutely wrong, it just happens to be different.
Well, that's all I got on it.
Well, it looks like their website has been updated too.
Yeah, it actually looks like it.
Yeah, well, you go over, and well, I'm Barry's blog, he's actually already blogged tomorrow.
Of course, he's in Australia, so that is tomorrow, there today.
So, you know, he's very active yet.
I just wish I had the time to try out all these things out.
It will be on a USB key here this weekend, and I'll tell you how it turned out.
Charlie, did you know that Gennome 3 has a built-in video desktop recorder?
I did not know that.
I knew something that you didn't first time ever!
Well, you got those hits.
I think it's all controlled shift.
Ah, that'll start it, and you get a little red dot flashing in it.
Wow, that's very nice.
Yeah, it is.
That is cool, just now.
I haven't tried it.
Try it, watch it crash.
Don't be nasty.
You got to give a fit of your name, live on this show occasionally.
No, I just know how those desktop recorders are, especially in like an alpha kind of software.
I would just get ready for the crash.
I must admit, I was going to put into it to do the show, and I just thought better of it.
Yeah, but right.
Is that it, is?
For that one?
Yeah, that's a, you know, a short and sweet like puppy.
All right.
And let's move on to J-Man.
I've been reading this magazine called Open Source, where the E is actually a 3.
You got that off of one of my picks for one week.
Do what?
You got that from one of my picks.
That was one of my picks one week, I think, for either Tid or Linux Cranks.
That you found out about that magazine?
And I don't even know what you're talking about.
Okay.
He does it less than the show.
Okay.
Okay.
I mentioned to that magazine because it just, it just recently, I mean, its first issue was like,
I don't know, maybe two months ago now, but, and I had mentioned it.
But please continue.
The focus on Unified Computing, which is basically this term for virtualization,
networking storage, pretty much anything that goes on in a data center.
But it's very professional quality, advertisement supported.
They have, you know, lots of topics about the data center.
They brought up this K-A-O-S, which I've never even heard of until now.
Apparently, you just replace your kernel and you have a different system
that's built off of KVM for virtualization.
It's very professional, I think.
They do all their work with the GAMP and Scripus.
And that's issue three, right, for K-A-O-S.
Right.
So the K-A-O-S thing, it's just, it's like a KVM optimized kernel or something,
and then you opt that in, and then you can run all your virtualizers off of that,
or is that what it is?
Or is it something completely different?
Yeah, it's a hypervisor, but they use the KVM that's already in the kernel.
I'm not sure what benefit there is.
That sounds cool, to look into that.
I'm going to have to download the magazine to find a link to the K-A-O-S.
Doing a search, I can't find a website.
Wow, you're right.
Be a super top secret project.
Yeah, apparently it's carbon mountain.com.
Is it really just a botnet or something?
Well, that's the link I'll put in the show notes.
Yeah, it is, it's right.
Yeah, it looks very interesting.
I mean, I don't understand much of it, but yeah, it's cool.
I probably don't even have a CPU.
I can do all that stuff, but it does look neat.
Am I right?
J-L-N-Z for KVM to really work, you have to have a CPU that has like a certain flag.
When you do a cat on the proxy, there's a certain flag that you need to look for
to see if it can actually do like KVM for real.
Right, you need to have at least VME support.
VMEX will be better.
Okay.
Okay, so you can technically do it with the VME.
One of your kernel has all the KVM stuff compiled into it.
Right.
Cool, okay.
Anything else, J-M-N?
Nope, that's it for me.
Cool, let's move on to 330.
I don't know how mine will be taken.
I may be shot down like PECWOL was last time, but is anyone interested in hearing about the EFF
failing out a couple of guys who were hacking their TI calculators?
Not really.
Not really.
All right, we'll then continue on gentlemen.
Yeah, we're just kidding.
Let's hear it.
Don't be so touchy.
I want it.
I want it.
I found this was posted on Boying Boying by my Mancrest Corridogra.
Basically, some guys were writing their own software for the TI calculators.
And because the calculators perform a signature check, which is a type of DRM,
they somehow had violated the Digital Millennium Copyright Act,
and were being sued under the terms of the DMCA by TI.
And the EFF came to their rescue, and they actually won the case, and TI had to leave them alone.
I'm posting a link right now.
So I just wondered everyone's thoughts on the legalities of reverse engineering
and thoughts of how pissed they'd be if they were writing their own calculator software,
and were sued by TI for it.
Wouldn't it just be so much more constructive for TI to knock on their door and say,
hey, cool, you're doing some really interesting programming here,
of, you know, working with learn from what you're doing or something.
I mean, they really have to waste their time on suing these people,
and they give me a break, either ignore them or leave them alone.
These are their best customers.
They really enjoy it.
Yeah, they like, yeah, it's crazy.
I mean, yeah, it is kind of a dick move to, you know, sue the hobbyist
that also buy your product.
Yeah, because the thing was that you had to buy the hardware
to be able to run the software that these guys were writing.
Yeah, so it's like a great advertisement for the hardware if it's something else.
And therefore you legally own it.
How can we do Linux cranks listeners?
Can we figure out some clause about it?
Start suing people for the fee for our show?
If they're listed, well,
or if they have our show on their computer, you know,
we could like, we could extort money from them somehow.
Okay, I got it, I got it.
If they also listen to my show, they're getting sued.
Perfect.
It's like some kind of conflict of interest or something.
We don't have to worry about three people.
That's true.
Yeah.
And all three of them are on this show right now.
That's a condition that's hard to meet.
And one of them is people.
List of my own show.
That just means that, you know, one of you listen
because I download and then immediately delete it.
So when we find the one listener,
we're going to sue this shit out of you.
That's right.
Yeah.
Just looking at this article,
it seems to be a problem that calculators have to have a certain certification
or something.
Well, for some, it's actually the big testing groups
that allow only certain certified calculator models.
And that if these are one of the certified models
and they're found to be easily hacked
or whatever they can end up being decertified,
which I suppose could lose a lot of money
for access instruments or whatever this was.
And maybe that could be why they're so worried about it.
Yeah, but should it be an issue that is, you know,
if nothing else,
should it be the DMCA that people are taking the corridor of rooming?
Couldn't just a simple violation of contract work?
I mean, I think this is a gross misuse of the DMCA.
Isn't any use of the DMCA, gross misuse of the DMCA?
Well, yeah.
No, I mean, yes, it's a shit law,
but there are ways to use it that aren't as exploited as others.
Yeah.
But like, as it says in the story here,
the DMCA specifically allows for reverse engineering
to create interoperable custom software.
And I'm sure that TI knew it,
and TI's lawyers knew it,
but you take three or four college kids to court,
they're all just gonna pay up and shut up.
Right, yeah.
But you get a great organization like the EFF,
which I full disclosure,
I pay them money to be a member.
But you get wonderful people like that coming to your aid,
these cases turn around pretty quickly.
So I'm glad to see this didn't fall completely on its face,
like Pegwalls did.
I don't remember Pegwalls from last week.
I had no memory of that.
That's how bad it was.
There's something about wearing the EFF.
The playthrough, Blighty,
looking through friggin' walls.
I'll never forget that story.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was pretty bad.
It could have been about having a lemon tuna mouth
that could have been the story.
That was really bad.
Get to the bin 335 and mention the lemon tuna mouth on this show.
Yeah, I mean, that was like a shameless self-promotion
or whatever that was.
In fact, I'm starting to think we should be in people
if they mention on lineage cranks.
Works for me.
Well, then let it be written this day,
the 18th day of the year 2009 of the Lord
or whatever they say.
What do they say?
In the year of our Lord.
Yeah, that'll do.
He's not what I think.
I'm just wondering what he really does.
Yeah, thank God.
I mean...
We have a laugh track over there.
Is that even real?
No, I just had me a good chuckle.
Oh, it's good.
So he's tickling them.
But the people who go ahead,
those 330s in the bin,
I don't have a story, remember?
Oh, get to the bin.
What do you even do?
Put him in the bin, too.
Well, you come on to a show where, like,
the point of it is that a story
and you don't bring a story.
I don't pick on pig,
because he's got a really good...
Yeah.
I just come on to offer my opinions
and I won't hear my lovely voice.
Oh, yeah, there is that.
Well, go ahead and give us your command of the week.
Let me actually pull it up here.
When you first run it else,
a no database found nothing to do.
Use, you know, dash, dash, help for help, of course.
We'll say a new database can be created with the following command.
Be in that, dash, u,
face, dash, i, face,
whatever interface, like, you know,
p0, or, you know, wland0, whatever.
And you can also have it do it
instead of just, like, sampling,
how much information is going across that interface.
You can have it just give you real-time output
of how much bandwidth is going across that.
Then, say, like, in an hour,
after you're done using it,
you can just hit Ctrl-C
and it'll give you a full output of all the bandwidth
you've used in that hour.
And, you have a...
Do you type that into IRC
and I'm just missing it?
Do that because I keep trying it
and I'm not getting that that command exists.
You'll probably have to.
You might have to install it.
Yeah.
I wanted this...
When I was set up my aspects box,
I wanted to see the throughput it could handle,
how many people it could host on it.
And I was trying to get some idea
of what sort of bandwidth each person was using.
And this is the thing that people told me to install on it.
And it didn't come stand on this
or actual CentOS.
So, you probably have to install it quite a bit.
Okay.
But it's really good.
I used to use NetStat, I think it was.
That's what I was going to mention.
Yeah, it sounds a lot like NetStat, but...
Ah, yeah.
This is heaps better.
Well, maybe not heaps better,
but it's a lot easier to read.
It gave me exactly what I wanted to know
and then gave me an overview at the end of it all,
like your maximum throughput,
your minimum, your average.
Ah, cool.
Yeah, typically what people are going to need.
Is it its own program,
or is it some kind of shell script using NetStat on the back end?
Because I mean all that stuff I'm pretty sure can be gotten from NetStat.
It's just you have to put about a dozen switches in to get to that point,
unless I'm wrong.
Pretty easy.
Yeah, because I used to have to use NetStat a lot at my old job,
and I'm pretty sure we got all that.
It sounds like we got all that information.
I wonder if the endstat is just a more friendly way to use NetStat features.
Where did you find it, Pegwold?
You remember?
Was it just in the repo,
or did you go to some website for it?
I forget why I installed it,
or what I was looking for,
but I did find it in the repos.
Okay.
I'm going to definitely look for that one.
That sounds pretty nice.
It's pretty awesome.
Yeah, that is pretty awesome.
I found the website I'm going to paste in the IRC for you once to be.
I just installed it.
Okay.
Says I'm able to write a database.
Yeah, you have to do the initialization thing to dash you, dash whatever.
Try running it as root.
Okay, Harley says he just installed it using SBOPKG.
Well, actually, I didn't even think to look in SBOPKG,
so I guess that is good to know.
On the subject, Clot 2,
your bad apples episode on Slackware was really good,
and you're going to follow that up, aren't you,
with SBOPKG?
On your next one.
Yeah, sure.
Looking forward to it.
Very much.
Not that I listen.
I know.
I assume you're just going off of what you've heard on the IRC or something.
Yeah.
The work that I do.
I'm into that.
The Clot 2, to make things that I listen to a show.
I ran into a fellow in the Main Street of Baton's Bay
who was talking about the bad apples of Slackware.
Listen to it.
Wow, cool.
Yeah, I guess you tended over your conversations,
because that apples just in the most random places.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There you go.
Har said you're the one who is boiling to use SBOPKG.
Awesome.
How much of a boot, Har?
I think he's a bit of a sack.
I know, we should.
You have to clap.
Yeah.
We don't put up with that.
Well, it's back machine B.
He just said it was a good episode as well.
A little bit too much there.
Yeah.
He gets to reprove because he's been hanging real long enough.
Oh, OK.
To the area in his way.
But, Har, he's a new boot here.
Yeah.
He'll get rid of him, for sure.
That, you know, everybody loves snacky with his lumpy head.
Clot 2, why don't you go ahead and give your commander the week
and drive these guys crazy.
I don't know if they can handle it.
That, actually, mine is nowhere near as cool as VN stat.
But I was just, it's more of a command line flag of the week.
Everyone, obviously, knows Tail, right?
T-A-I-L, the show, the last, by default, 10 lines of a log file
or a document or whatever.
But the switch that I use a lot of times on Tail is a dash F,
which means it's going to follow that document, meaning that basically,
if you do a tail dash F, you know, and let's say,
now I can't think of a log file that I'd do this on,
but on any given log file in a terminal window,
then each time a new line is written to that log file,
that pops up on your terminal window.
So you're looking at that file in real time as it occurs.
So when you're doing network testing and stuff like that,
or as much as I know about that sort of thing,
if you're trying to see if you're getting data from someplace or something like that,
you can do a tail on a log file and see what kind of entries are being made to that log file.
So it's actually quite handy for kind of monitoring what's happening on your system
as maybe you're doing some other kind of test.
That's tail dash F, as in follow.
I've seen a, that's more, I can't remember what,
you've got a log file on to why one having to some file,
if I flip over the TTY1 there will be,
what information will be continually get written to the terminal?
That is true, yeah.
Yeah, now I've seen a place more that continually printed that out,
so I'd imagine that's exactly what it was using.
It probably is, you're probably right.
Yeah, that's a good one to know, actually.
I used to use it a lot at my old job where we were,
I forget exactly what I was doing,
I think I was having to do testing to see if the evahi or whatever,
yeah, the evahi thing,
what was being picked up or something like that,
or error messages,
and I had to like tail dash F,
all these different files to see what kind of error messages
or confirmation and messages was being written out to the log file,
and it really made the job a lot easier.
On my devian box here I have a command just called tail F,
you know, without the dash.
Oh, okay.
I don't know if it's a devian thing,
let me look at the man page.
You mean it's tail, or you mean it's,
you just type it tail.
Yeah, it's tail.
It's probably like an ali, I felt that.
I don't know, let me type it.
Yeah, it's two in hard same thing,
but it's probably two different.
Man, sure.
Yeah, I think you're right,
it is a different thing.
I'm doing a man on it now.
But it does the same thing.
Yeah, it does the same thing.
Yeah, it follows the grace of the log file.
Yeah, there you go.
It says it's part of the,
you tell Lennox.ng package.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, I see, I see.
Yeah, you tell that.
It's similar to tail F,
tail space dash F,
but does not access the file when it is not growing.
So I take it,
it doesn't use any system resources.
Is that what it means?
Yeah, probably.
I bet you're right.
I bet that's exactly it.
That sounds kind of nice.
So it's almost like a,
almost like a Damon,
or it goes to sleep until it,
I guess it makes that file ping-it
when that file changes, maybe.
This has the side effect of not updating
the access time for the file.
So if file system flash does not occur
periodically,
when no log activity is happening,
it will crawl intensive purposes,
I think, for our,
what we want it for,
either one's going to work.
Well, I like tail better than tail dash F then.
I like them both.
Okay.
I like the name,
TELF.
Well, you know,
TELF, I'm sure I could get it somehow,
but the system,
the unit systems that I was using at this other job
was not Linux.
And so,
I don't believe it had TELF,
especially since,
I'm,
even since it was in Util dash Linux dash in G,
I really doubt that it had TELF on it.
So I had to use TEL dash F anyway.
So PIGWAL,
you are no longer PIGWAL,
you are TELF now.
Look,
I am one shirt V in stat PIGGY.
Well, I guess we learned something today, huh?
I think we all learned a little something today.
Well, let's learn some more.
How about you, Peter?
What do you got for us?
X-A-V.
Have you said of that?
Which is the X-Advent Viewer.
And what that's going to do,
if you run it,
it's going to open up a little window.
And in that window,
it's going to continually print out
all the events that are happening in X.
Now, typically, if you just run X-A-V,
you're going to have to have your cursor
over in that window.
Then you might hit the keys on your keyboard
and it's going to print out a heap of data.
If you start clicking the mouse,
it's going to print out a heap of stuff as well.
You can pass options to it,
so it doesn't happen in that particular window.
It happens in any window you want, I think.
Now, what do you use it for?
Good question.
I typically use it.
These days, a lot of remote controls
you don't need to look.
You can just plug them in.
They register as a USB keyboard or mouse.
Then when you push buttons on them,
you really don't know what signals are sending.
So what you can do is start up X-A-V
and start hitting buttons on your remote.
And you're going to see stuff like key press event,
serial blah blah blah,
set 30 blah blah blah.
And you're going to get about six or seven lines.
But the line you're typically going to be interested in
is going to say something like key code,
and it will give you a number.
And it will go key symbol.
And that might be key if you're hitting the play button
or the pause button typically in a moment
like sending the key.
So it's one way of doing that.
The other thing you can actually use this for,
if you have a multimedia keyboard,
and for some reason you have to have those keys going,
but you don't know what they're doing.
You can start this up and start hitting all those keys
on your multimedia keyboard.
You're probably going to get a key code,
but you may not get any key symbol.
What you have to do then is you've got to go and look up.
There's only X amount of key symbols you can use, I think.
But that to actually get in and tell you how.
You're going to have to also modify your X-Mod map file,
I think, is the other thing you've got to do.
But I can't get into all that now.
But if you're interested in doing that sort of stuff,
do a Google for X-AV X-Mod map,
and that should get you started in that.
So there you go.
I just want more.
I'm going to send myself to the bin here,
because I heard Dan talking about trying to see if his remote
was working the other day.
They were using IOW.
But IOW will only work if you have work and figured correctly.
The simplest one to do is use HexDum.
Has anyone used that before?
If you haven't heard of that,
where you just do a HexDum space dash C,
then the device,
and for a remote,
your device might be dash, dev, dash, remote.
Start pushing buttons in on the dump,
or the HexDum,
or the HexDesimal output to the terminal,
and at least you know that you're remote worker.
And you don't need to look or set up to do that.
So do you actually use HexModMap really frequently?
I've never used it.
Never.
No, I typically use XEV for the remote.
I'm not around a hell of a lot of micro trials.
So that's where I've come across it and used it.
But XEV,
I mean, just do a Google XEV.
It can be used for a hell of a lot more than that.
It's showing every,
it's not just keyboards,
it's showing everything that's happening in that,
in your extra session.
When you move a mouse,
you'll see a heap of data going across the screen.
I think when you highlight windows,
you know, you bring them to the forefront and background
and all that,
it's telling you everything.
But unfortunately,
I don't need to know that.
So I wouldn't know what to do with it all.
Yeah, I've used XEV and I've never known really what to do with it.
But that's interesting to hear what you actually do use it for.
It's pretty cool.
Yeah.
Yeah, Jesse Jones has just done his output there,
the X Mod Map.
And that's where it goes.
KeyCode 178 equals.
Okay, that's the key code that you'll find in that X Event Viewer.
So then you can associate it and see it's got there the XF86 audio raise volume.
I'll put a link that I've got.
And these lists,
most of the you might put in the show notes.
These are the only things you can use.
The multi symbols or whatever you call them.
The references that X will understand.
You don't want yours?
Yeah.
All right, very cool, Peter.
Now let's move on to Asmet.
Well, I want to revisit the screen command
since we had a discussion about this this week.
Somebody who I was sure knew all about screen turned out knew nothing.
And so I got to thinking,
well, maybe there's a lot of people that don't know about screen.
Who was that, GMN?
Well, I wouldn't know, but it starts with them.
And ends with B.
No idea.
You fell in the rest.
Yeah, I don't either.
Well, screen is a Windows Manager.
It's not a GUI Windows Manager.
You don't even have to have X-Organ Sold or RX on the machine.
But you can use just the screen Windows Manager
and have multiple terminals without logging into every terminal you open.
You just log into one terminal
and you keep opening different windows for it and add what you need.
There's some very basic commands.
It's really all anybody pretty much needs on it.
But it has a quite complete set of issues with it.
And it will do amazing things.
If you read the L here, let me paste the...
Yeah, there's the manual for it.
You read that and you will find things that screen will do
that none of us may ever use.
But you should know at least the basic commands on it.
The most basic one is the screen dash LS
or screen dash list, which you just do from the terminal.
And it will tell you if you have a screen session running and detach
that screen from wherever it is running
with the dash capital D command in...
Well, it's not the command.
It's actually a switch on the screen command.
It will detach that screen from any place that it is connected.
And you can add the R-switch to it
and it will reattach to the terminal that you have open.
So whatever screen you have running, you can open it right there.
There's also a dash X-R command
which will allow any screens that are running to still be running
but it will reattach them to the terminal you are in.
And that will allow you to multiple terminals
on the same screen session, which is what I myself do a lot with RISC.
I run RISC in a screen and I attach to it with computers all over the place here
and I never disconnect from it.
The screen session is always set in there running and RISC is running
and I can pick up any computer on my land
and jump right into the IRC right where I left off.
And most of the time nobody even knows that I've moved from one computer to another.
But the beauty of screen is that not only is for things that you are actually running
but you can open a screen window with the Control-A-C
and that will open a new screen window.
And in that screen window you can run another program.
And it's completely independent whatever you have running in the first screen.
It's just like any window manager.
It bets off running by itself and what you are running in this window is running by itself.
In fact, I even have the lease of bought from the IRC is running in a screen window all the time,
which is it's really convenient to get over if the bought screws up.
I can just jump into a Control-A-C in that window and stop the bought and restart it
and it goes on about its very business.
It connects back up again.
I'll be running along there.
This all SSH didn't to my server.
And so I may have one window that's open into as a super user to where I can do rich stuff over there.
But it's set in there running independent of what's running in the other windows.
And it is a windows manager.
But it is a text-based windows manager as opposed to black box or flux box or open box or anything else that would require X.
Yeah, you can even split the screen.
Horizontal and vertical have different sessions going on in different split.
It's a great program I love screen.
Yeah, anybody that hasn't played with it, they need to go play with it and just go through the manual that I listed there.
And just try the different switches in it and watch it go crazy.
Because you'll find things that it does that you just shake your head and say, well, wait a minute.
I don't even need to have X running.
Well, I've got some machines that it's kind of like you get an X up and running on.
But I guess you put screen in them and you've got all the advantages of a window manager without the graphical problems that you end up with on some of these display cards.
Yeah, you're not exaggerating.
It'll change the way that you use your text console, that's for sure.
And it's one of those things, the more you learn about it, the more you find out that you never imagined it would do.
That's just like today I was on my desktop, you know, connected to my free BSD box with screen in the chat room.
I detached, took my trip lead to the coffee shop today and then connected to my free BSD box again, reattached and nobody knew it.
And I could look over and see what was said in the chat room. I never know anything.
Yeah, that's cool.
Other than we just thought you was rude because you were ignoring us, but that's different story altogether.
Yeah, see I was on my way to the coffee shop, you guys were talking to me.
But it's very handy.
Do you know if it's really easy to change the default, either the key binding, like the control A and then whatever letter, to change it away from control?
Is it just a simple config file somewhere, or do you know?
Yeah, there's a screen RC file, dot screen RC file that you need to go look at and you can set up your key bindings in it.
Well, some of those control key bindings kind of override some of the default bash key bindings.
And I always found that kind of annoying, but other than that, I love it.
We'll spend some time digging through the manual on it then you've, especially after you've been using it for a while.
And you say things that, well, I wondered why it did that.
And that's how I can get past, you know, some little idiosyncrasy that you thought it had and it was all, well, it turns out it was just your operation of it.
Yeah, yeah.
And you only need screen on the one box you're connecting to?
Yeah.
Of course, I've been finding screen comes stock in a lot of distros anymore.
Yeah, I don't remember the last time I had to actually install it.
But the only one I run it on is my server.
Everything else has got a good around here.
Another one, what?
Another like screen type application.
I thought it was like contact.
Tuck's window manager.
It's like very similar.
I think I've heard it's the only thing I haven't.
I don't think it's called Tuck's window manager though.
Unless there is one called that, but I think I know what you're talking about.
I heard screen was quote unquote better.
I don't know why.
They just said use screen.
It's better.
I think you're thinking about team up.
Yeah, how do you spell that?
That's TMUX.
Yeah, that's it.
Now, can you, well, never mind, I was going to ask you about the colors.
But that depends on whatever terminal you're using, right?
Yeah, if you have your terminal set to Linux colors or whatever, then that'll be used.
And if it's a text console, I guess it's just whatever settings you've got for that.
Well, too.
Now, screen sets are in runs until you actually close it.
And if you detach from a screen session, the screen session is still set in a running,
where you can come back in and reattach to it, either from the computer that is running on or you can SSH into it.
And you can go right back to the session that's just been set in there idling along doing its own thing,
even though it had no terminal connected to it.
Yep.
It is an amazing application.
Perfect.
We're out of time.
Anything else on this one?
Before I end the show?
Nope.
All right.
You can send us feedback at feedback at titradio.info.
And remember to visit titradio.info for the org feed and show notes.
And I'm going to say another tit is in the can.
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Boom!
An explosion happened between my legs.