Episode: 1420
Title: HPR1420: 2013-2014 HPR New Year Show Part 5 2014-01-01T10:00:00Z to 2014-01-01T12:00:00Z
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr1420/hpr1420.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-18 02:04:50

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But shall we begin?
Coffee time started warning this is being recorded actually it's a bit late for that yeah
actually it's kind of funny because um the the statement that uh Cobra just made ended up on the
end of your recording can but on the beginning of my recording i tried really hard to do that too
and on a side note i love net or i love uh time services because uh oddly enough my clock was
synced with that too well what i like was that uh broam earlier kept trying to sneak something in
in between everybody's recording so he wanted to basically say something that ended up on
no recordings at all and he only got he only managed to do it once on the other hand would anybody
like to uh speak out for our sponsor tonight donate your bitcoins to address one oh i forget the rest
uh uh let's see donate your bitcoins to short url b-v-u-h-2-24-3
i'll just paste a link into the orca donate as well which is actually underneath there
they're not accepting bitcoins by any chance are they yeah if you go if you go to the acf
dot com address yeah he he is actually taking bitcoin now speaking of encryption and hashing
functions earlier can short url be thought of as a time-based hash function no thanks so
well i mean well are you asking can it be implemented as one or are you asking is it one
well i i know it isn't intended to be implemented as one but technically could it be used as one
or even thought of as one to some degree sorry i'm a bit confused why do you mean
okay short url and most url shortners are using a sequential um a sequential note on the end of
a url to allow you to link to a larger url so technically it's entirely dependent on how many
people are going through the service and how much time it takes for them to go through the service
so if you were to pick a specific url it could be a hash for the specific time that you pick that
specific url is it necessarily based on a sequential numbering though or is it based on using
entropy from a system on that i'm not sure i i don't know short url itself have noticed some of
you'll notice this sequential series if somebody posts a bunch of links many of them will begin with
the same thing and then going along that same one and so they are to some degree showing some
sequential service well they are definitely generated in an order so i mean you know that there's
an order to which urls were encoded when but you don't necessarily know that the algorithms
use to actually implement to actually generate the short url are consistently implemented
so i would have to say no but i would say that it will be possible to do it to actually have an
implementation that can do that but if i don't think most of them actually implement it that way
at this point well the fact that it's not based on time could actually be to the advantage because
you'd have a recording on the server of when the url was necessarily recorded and a recording
of the url that you have itself which would essentially give you a time record of the creation
of that url and hence the time at which it was used well the other thing is you don't necessarily
know that here's one of the problems for any url it is entered into the shortening algorithm
there would necessarily have to be one there would have to be one entry for that url
but you could have many different shortened versions pointing to that one url so it's not necessarily
a one-to-one relationship it could be a one-to-many relationship or a many-to-one relationship
that is true but well you never know you could also use it in concert with individually crafted
urls to link up between two sites to allow you to note the time for example personally what i
would rather see would be some kind of like a hash hashing algorithm used that maybe does something
based on a DNS lookup of the url to get a resolution and some other factor to generate a decent
seed to actually generate a hash at least that's the way i would like to see it i don't think it's
i don't think anybody does it that way but that's how i would like to see it done that way there
would be a better chance of maintaining some anonymity in terms of who links where
and my coffee's ready so i'll be right back
addict when it comes to caffeine absolutely you said that like is a bad thing man
i just say you can interpret it however you like i don't think i've ever had this much trouble with
mumble before hello people good morning happy new year happy new year i'm from Singapore so here is
actually afternoon is i'm going to evening already actually hey it's five o'clock somewhere where's
your beer i'm sorry i said it's five o'clock somewhere so where's your beer uh it's six
zero nine p.m. at Singapore how about you guys it's four almost four ten a.m. here just turned
oh cool wow oh yeah i'm new to mumble it's actually my first time and joining um how do you tell
who is um time they're speaking uh look at the lips the little lip icon in front of all of the names
you can see the little red lips in front of me right now uh that means that i'm currently the one
speaking and you are at the moment too because you're holding it down i see so it's just that's very subtle
color difference right exactly yeah the lips will turn red whenever you actually press the button
to actually speak so that's how you know who's speaking i see i see um yeah um yeah well my vision
is actually not good so um it took me a while to um i mean there's like 30 names in my screen and
to find out who is talking um it is just based on colors it's uh actually quite hard for me
you may be able to put in a higher contrast icon set i'm not sure on how mumble is formed
but there are some other theme sets for mumble
um but the other thing is i think you can actually use the um some of the voice
notification stuff but if you're going to use that then you'd want to um be using a pair of headphones
with it so that the voice notifications don't come back through your microphone
ah i see yes um mumble can take skinning so that might be something to look at as either
creating a skin of your own or looking for one that's higher contrast maybe larger
uh what what are your vision impairments okay cool uh very cool yeah i just plug in uh
headset um yeah so um um i have glaucoma so which means that um i have many more blind spots than
normal people do um so i regularly miss the mouse cursor i said it to as as big as possible
like a comics cursor because that's the biggest that i can find and for phones uh there's probably
nine i don't know size 14 or 16 right now um yeah um and i i i use orc on a day-to-day basis
basically without it and it's very hard to to even use computers for me so yeah
wonderful it's good it's good to hear you here today oh yeah cool thanks
glad to be here um yeah i actually wanted to be here um i mean i'm to join last year but uh
last year my baby sadness just one year old so it's kind of troublesome yes really with the
concept uh mine turned seven months the second oh yeah a second yeah he'll be seven months old
January the second oh cool is it a boy or a girl is a boy cool um so pokey are you um will you
staying online continuous please oh since this lab i think pokey went to bed he's just recording
yeah he's he's turned those lips off yeah he he went to bed he went to bed a couple hours ago um i'm
actually the only person who has been here every hour so far oh blow your own trumpet why don't you
no it's just okay i'm seeing it how good man yeah i thought i thought i heard pokey's way but um
that's probably not pokey no i'm cobra too oh okay okay yeah nice to meet you all those Americans
see all of some the same oh come on now yeah i don't think i hear you hear yeah i was gonna say
i really do not sound like like john do or cobra too that's what you think that just ain't right
you're awful proud of that aren't you shucks we're all here in hecka public radio
well all we need to do is uh go ahead and get stuff um get uh what's his name on here
go to try to do a southern accent or a try to do it uh an english accent sounds like a southern
bell instead there's that peter no no um was it stuzz no wasn't stuzz was he was wrong
no no um he's on dev random not crayon not peter not stuzz
at yard at yard that's it at yard i couldn't remember his name i blanked on it
haven't seen it in like for each other on that show so you know hard to know who's who's who
well i also haven't seen it around in months literally okay here's the only one that sounds
really annoying when he talks oh that's that's gonna look good in his resume
now i heard her defend himself so he's fair game i i never let him live the southern bell thing down
so what was the question about mumble by the way uh using uh perhaps a different eye concept to
make the lips uh either bigger or more prominent so that uh small change can be easier for low vision
users yeah i think we spotted a bug yep um how do you how do you find using orca
um orca yeah it's uh it's great um orca itself is actually um pretty okay it's just that
there there are a lot of applications that are inaccessible to orca and i don't know whether
that i mean i don't know whether the breakthrough should lie in orca or in other applications
yeah that's what Jonathan said he's got to do a lot of figuring out is you know
when something's broken in orca versus when it's broken in an application
that's one of the things that he wants to focus on and maybe when a fix in orca is breaking the
application or when a fix in the application is breaking orca yeah and i think he actually said that
the um integration of orca and mumble isn't all that great especially like the the chat area uh he
he said you know he can get the stuff read from the chat area but he can't easily enter text into it
if i can read a comment uh by john marie digs who's the um developer of orca and comments
you know about the posting that i put up she says and i quote actually the real problem is that
there are a lot of bugs and missing support inaccessible to see implementations orca can only
provide access to what is exposed to orca those what we really need is people to fix bugs
and the implementations supported in those applications and or to and or toolkits including but not
limited to whoops thunderbird gecko evolution library office java and it's atk wrapper canoe cash
happy word audacity and as we can add today mumble i'm non trivial number of orca bobs so that's
non trivial number of orca bobs in quotes are actually side effects of trying to hack around problems
in the aforementioned items and in some cases orca cannot even hack around the problems
fixing the issues in the items above would make orca work a lot better and go much further towards
accomplishing the goals of the campaign also it would be awesome if the voices used in orca
through speech inspector for example e-speak sounded far less robotic that too would be a
significant improvement for orca users and would really noteworthy achievement for what it's worth
so i wonder if it would be worth going through all of the essential dialogues
that are available throughout an entire organized distro or an entire default part of the distro
say debian's first three CDs and putting those dialogues of speech into the library itself to
allow better speech pattern for that i don't know to be honest i don't know enough about how orca
structured how it works and i think one of the things that we can do here in hpr is delve into this
and better explain to people you know in lay person's terms what's going on where the bridge
where it needs the hooks what it's what applications are failing and stuff like that so that we can
go to the developers at conferences and go you know guys orca is inaccessible here have a listen
to this this is what happens over here this is what happens over here and the reason that's
happening is because you haven't compiled these problems with this flag so if you turn that on
or build in this library or do x, y and z it would work how about any chance you get net done while
we're here while we have five minutes and you know chances are there's a face and inaccessibility and
and stuff like that so yeah that's pretty much what i want to do have hpr people be
born in the side of every software every piece of inaccessible software out there i also wonder
if some of the hacks that have been used get around the bugs might not cause interference when
the bugs do get fixed or when there's an attempted fix so it might be worth looking at providing
an unhacked version of orca to some of the developers for them to test with so that these hacks
don't interfere with something they might try to do to fix it yeah i see what you mean yeah
yeah there there could be dependency regressions that would happen
um you might also want to look at the different dependencies and similar and see what versions of
orca might work better with this version of Firefox or what hacks might work to work with this
version of Firefox but need to be disregarded on another version not that i'm purely going
against Firefox of course you know it's easy punching bag i imagine the orca support for internet
explorers absolutely non non-functional yeah they need to get on that i tell you next time i
talk to Steve mom or he's hearing me about that i just it's just one of those things there's no excuse
no excuse at all this one um screen reader in windows that is um three is uh nvda and it sounds
quite close to orca actually but i should understand they are completed two different projects i think
yeah i've played a little bit with some of the screen readers um there's also one that comes with windows
so you can give me the URL for that please um i don't have the URL but the the name is nvda i think
it's a non-visual desktop access or something like that searching oh oops yeah um guys i really like
to stay but my son is getting bored and he's opening up the stuff that he's soon
understandable yeah that's what the deal was like and one second i really need two
one second i'd be right thanks i have that posted into the channel great thanks a little
so she uh she has actually been in touch i've been in touch with her because of the
uh the comments on on the blog post and she's lined up some uh interviews for me for other
other people working on accessibility as it turns out this other program for windows is under
gpl version two so that'd be worth looking at for other integration especially if there were to be
integration of orca with other stuff yeah i think i think we don't know enough about uh you know
where we can mix some action stuff to see see uh if somebody goes to walk us through exactly what
how these things work and uh where they hook into various different applications and it uses e
speak so it's using the same uh it's using the same integration engine it's written primarily in
python and c++ oh interesting that actually sounds a lot like description of orca and it supports
putty that is uh that is useful but this does say on the Wikipedia page it is windows only free software
so in other words it's got some pretty heavy dependencies on on windows functionality
well more than that it's probably compiled with windows binaries and with windows libraries involved
so that doesn't necessarily the fact that it's using e speak tells me a lot about its back end
and similar so this for example might be used instead of orca for the front end for windows using
the same things orca does because if it's already using e speak it might be easy to change over
something else you never know well i think i mean e speak will be the back end for the audio output
but the the part that it's going to be windows dependent is going to be the actual screen reader
itself the part that's actually reading the text off the display and that's where there'd be real
complications most likely hello i'm back um uh who's using e speak nvda?
nvda is using e speak as it's back for speech synthesis along with s a p i according to
Wikipedia at least ah i see um yeah the voices are very similar oh they're really the same voices
so to speak at least they have integration for thunderbird oh uh thunderbird is
accessible with nvda? yeah i was saying that as more of a joke considering that's uh evidently
a few bugs in thunderbird or an issue in linux but not necessarily an issue in the windows in nvda
so there is some degree of accessibility in there available in windows because this uses the
accessibility for it but that would be something we need to look at in linux if i understand right
well let me ask this they also say support for free office suites lever office in open office
or requires the java access bridge and vda all supports via firefox so it looks like there
may be some other things in here that could possibly be applied in the linux area maybe that can
maybe some of this connection be used so we can come down to an api or a binary program interface
layered actually work all this out so it's going to take some real development work which means
we really need to actually get that funding together for the accessible computing foundation so they
can get developers who can work on this nice blog but it also opens it up to the possibility that
since we have a new speech system for orca that speech system also may be able to be implemented
here on windows to allow a similar system to to go through to have better voices and to do
other similar stuff that is correct and admittedly there's some things that just need to be done
windows even if you put it in a window as the name suggests has anyone played with orca like
reading from a virtual machine wouldn't be supported unless you actually went through and
literally scraped the screen with oCR it shouldn't work it should work in the vm itself though
yeah that's what i mean i'm not running a virtual machine but running inside of virtual machine
as long as you had at least a dual core around two gigahertz it should run fine
or i don't know maybe doing live usb or live install it on a portable drive
uh wouldn't be a bad idea i think technically there are speech systems in place to use that
um in fact i think orca can be used directly off of the uh don't they have a live cd for uh
sonar itself good morning good night the um ubuntu um the sanina ubuntu um we can load that on usv and then
orca and on sanina ubuntu um that's what i've been um using actually hey it's if it works for you
that's great um have you tried the persistent system on there or do you just load it on every time
you load uh yeah it's uh with the persistence uh i think casper um yeah casper is the one
yeah it's it's a good system to use but it does tend to wear out some of the thumb drives
uh yeah um i had it on uh xdmy drive um but um the downside is i can't use the um uh the
3d graphics on the laptop or on the desktop and a host machine see and jonathan said 3d graphics
were not an issue with blind users but it's not blind i actually don't don't i actually don't
really use um 3d graphics at all but yeah yeah it's more the issue of what can be recognized by
unity and everything else he talked about that next but i thought i'd just make the joke uh uh yeah um
but magnification for magnification um i think it does make use of the 3d graphics or something because
i tried it um i don't know i tried gnomag that might be not the current version they might be
other um better um packages um but gnomag if i try it on uh life um drive um it will work the
first time but after that the um x display would um would be screwed so i turn off the gnomag um like
when i want to zoom out um the the the um the zoomed area is still there oh so it doesn't really allow
you to zoom in and out properly um have you tried using uh you're using it on the same computer
every time correct um not really because um um sometimes on home computer mostly on my office
computer have you tried going to additional drivers in the control panel and loading additional
drivers to see if it can recognize the 3d uh not yet but yeah maybe i should try um keep in mind
even if you move it from one computer or do another it will auto detect the video or it's
supposed auto detect the video and use the driver that pertains to your specific video
oh so if i if my home computer and my office computer um use different models of
um 3d card um will it still work that way i should work that way i've seen it work that way in the
past uh not too long ago i had a problem with one of my computers so i had to take its hard drive
and transfer that over to another hard drive now that went from a proprietary ATI driver
to an open source intel driver absolutely no problem uh most of that has actually transferred over
from a project called NOPEX um wherein a variety of things are loaded over NOPEX oddly enough also
has a blind interface called i think it's adria um but NOPEX they really implemented the live CD
ideal and the recognition of any drivers that need to go through before the system boots and even
in a rather quick fashion and that's been used in linux distros since not even just the live ones
but the hard drive installs as well cool um yeah i i should definitely try that thanks so much yondo
oh no problem that's what we're here for cool cool um yeah but NOPEX i actually um um try
NOPEX for a lot before um yeah um i haven't really checked that uh but it has a lot of
i mean it comes with a lot of stuff lately uh it does and a lot of it's very specially selected
software especially when you get the DVDs because that's oh you should have seen i don't know how long
you've been using it but the CDs used to come with so much software at one point the CDs would
come with gnome kde uh oh geez uh i swm and a few other desktop managers all on the one CD
so you could try out all of it in a live environment cool yeah i just wonder with all um this um
you know with all this happening with Ubuntu and people switching over from Ubuntu um
NOPEX doesn't seem to get mentioned around a lot that's it well NOPEX was not intended to a hard drive
install and now with the Casper system and similar stuff with Ubuntu it's not so much an issue
as it used to be it at one point NOPEX was the only system by which you could live boot Linux
to a graphical system now almost anything has live install CD frankly so just carrying the
single install instance does wonders uh and actually the adrian comes with the text on the web browser
e-links but Ubuntu also have e-links but the the ones on NOPEX um maybe they
they do um additional tweaking to it so the web pages and everything they all seem to display
probably i mean more screen reader friendly than the vanilla e-links from uh Ubuntu repo
like for example um websites often have um left and right panels and uh um
Casper Ubuntu version of e-links would display the left and right panels together so when the
screen reader um goes through line by line um is actually reading the left side and then the right
side and then the left side and the right side is um not that comprehensible but the the ones that come
with NOPEX the uh the right panel the content or right panel will be displayed um below the one
on the left panel so there's only one um panel at a time so um yeah i just wonder um what's the
special ingredient that they put in um in e-links to make that um functionality right i've just
got special ingredients uh the special ingredient with NOPEX is that class knopper's wife
is blind so if it doesn't work he fixes it oh yeah yeah i heard about that
and he fixes things and he's hyper extraordinary uh sleep and stuff so are you talking
welcome back welcome back yeah thanks now keep in mind also you may be able to go on to the
good morning everyone can you hear me of course used on i just don't know all right welcome back to the
stream how you very don't John Dave Dave isn't it oh you're the best person yeah isn't it
in your line on the bug cast yeah that's also my fright which with kids as well say morning kids
hello my kids well we were gonna we were gonna come on a midnight but uh we were gonna come
on a midnight but the everybody was just so tired yes we had that over here as well well we're
doing welcome backs i woke up and i heard voices so i got up and came back to the computer at least
this time there was an excuse for hearing the voices yeah so uh i'm a little fuzzy did i go all uh
this a web earlier or did i just go away peacefully yeah you missed this a web of ink
yeah he's just he's not 50 when i was leaving or about to you you kind of came on but
we're about an hour before that pistol level left so you missed him yeah no he didn't miss him he
was here while this a level is here and yes 50 you you weren't real bad but you did kind of
kind of drone on for a little bit and then you left to get a beer and then we didn't see you
until now most of them in a pretty good beer i was about to ask did you is that beer anywhere near
you at this point did you make it that far yeah to walk into town to get it you know well i finished
up i had part to two laying here that were warm beers and i uh not the waist anything i finished
those and then i've gone to the refrigerator to get another one so we'll see how long that last
wait did you wake up and then go to the refrigerator to really the monitor and hear him right
now i woke up with the refrigerator and came back and some
and 50s isp hate to make it he does a well all night too until now now on on to that issue we were
having um when it comes to e-links what you might be able to do is seeing as they're both debian
you might be able to pull down the source and maybe the source modifications that
nopics is using for e-links and use those same modifications in a boom too uh-huh yeah i
told about that too but um yeah yeah probably um that'd be a good good thing to do um yeah i just
don't didn't have the time to um hunt for the documentation on adrian well you may also you may
also just email uh close nopper and see if he can't send you a package itself you never know
oh yeah that'd be awesome wow i got quiet yeah yeah the bug cast i've never actually listened to that
but um obviously being on i don't know if he's he's still there actually he's still there
yeah i'm still here yeah i never actually listened to the bug cast but obviously i've heard
i had questions i've had cravings when you were uh taking over in the
he was august for a bit and stuff like that but i'm actually listening to your bug cast but
don't think i don't really listen to that many podcasts to be honest so because i tend to kind of
prefer listening to music on the computer and you know if i'm gonna listen to something but
but uh yeah don't you listen to the bug cast on the computer what's that you can't
listen to the bug cast on the computer are you think i should listen to that yes
yeah i assume so just that i haven't you know it's like one of those podcasts that
well those of them that i probably should listen to i just haven't yet you know
well you should certainly listen to a boardman in one's anyway
yes i had to get that in there i'm sorry
oh you want me to warn for somebody did you
yeah we won the european podcast award in 2012 for a UK personality
all right yes i don't know there was a wall for that but okay yes and that sounds good
and on and on sunday we find out whether we win the podcast awards the uh the u.s. entry
one well cool fingers crossed anyway we can influence the board
uh no voting finished at the end or i'm sorry i'm sorry that's okay that's not what i asked
is it okay yeah i guess that's not what i asked
can we influence the votes but i think the votes were already cast though right
again that's not what i asked what was the question can
can we influence the votes oh i see um yeah go beat up to kakran he might uh
might be able to do something well warmly you'll react maybe you know i need to go prepared
dinner now uh thanks so much for the suggestion and chat guys i'm really glad to be here
uh what was that you got bad or do you say dinner i didn't what was it what was it yeah
dinner yeah it's uh it's actually six um six plus here uh six 44 pm here in Singapore
uh cool yeah um so yeah it's been great so far um and uh it's my new year resolution
that i'll be back again on the 31st if you guys are doing it again next year i mean this year
2014 so yeah thanks so much for all the help and uh the chat and suggestions really appreciate that
don't forget you cannot uh your own show to HPR as well if you come across something um yeah
yeah sure how i got into Linux is a good way to start yeah kirk heard though don't you know
don't be a stranger and wait till a year from now to jump in i mean we're we're here every day
on on all kit in the all cast planted on on the IRC chat you know how to find this there don't you
yeah yeah sure uh yeah okay yeah i'll jump in every now and then and admittedly that is kind of
a cop out waiting an entire year to follow through with you it's a solution yeah and
kirk heard it was very nice meeting you uh likewise meeting you likewise to thank so much guys
well i feel really welcome uh thanks so much guys yeah okay okay thanks guys see you
and like i said if you if you you know you hang around on the channel and meet people
you you're probably getting invited to join to to uh join in on a podcast now and then
if not get on a regular one so like i said don't you know jump in all cast planted don't be a stranger
yeah sure sure okay we'll do okay see you guys i really got to go now
nice yeah yeah okay see you guys bye bye happy new year yeah bye
Dave you were looking for me now i was just gonna say that i'm very aware that it was about a year
ago today in fact that i promised you a show and haven't done one yet i don't maintain any lists at all
yes you do no no i have a list of people who submit shows and have everybody else in the world i think
oh i know what i'm on that list am i no you're not on the list of people who have submitted shows
and no i'm on every the everybody else list well that's not a list officially i think
i'm gonna have to go because he's getting hate to kids so uh oh that catch you guys later
have fun i'm still trying to convince Ken that being on every hour of this show is like being on
26 shows no they only come for last year so the only credit you're getting is from mid-nice to now
i thought you said that was born under various so nobody was getting credit exactly no credit
well no no no wait wait because last on the January 1st of last year i was still up so i did all those
hours as well why do you want the karma not the credit anyway i think i said in the last new year
showed that well i was like new completely new on this i think i said um just Ken oh yeah i'll
i'll i might do a show for you and then i might do a show on hpub but obviously now here we are
later i'm done it so but um who knows maybe maybe this year i all droops the show going back
uh nearly eight years now so procrastination is nothing new i miss droops i miss droops too
he's got a suit and tie in his profile pictures whatever happened to the good old blow-up with
dynamite droops we knew and long he needed money or maybe he's gonna work for people who have
bigger dynamite so i tell you what he's telling me i bet uh Ken would count it if you go on and uh
do a post show after we oh two hours after we hit the last time zone are you freaking kidding me
i am i am i am almost to my 26th hour awake straight well you know the last time i cut myself
seriously i've been up for what 36 hours you got a little bit to go i've pulled more i've pulled
more than 36 hours before but no i'm not gonna do it this year that when i that when i have to be
at work tomorrow morning well just don't handle sharp objects i think i've been awake let's see
about 40 hours longest but then if if you include my travel this one time and uh you know it was
awake all night that night before all that i was about to have a sleep in between that's please
you know be about full yeah i was i wasn't it all kind of time was same between i'm a parent i've been
awake for the last five years there you go i was gonna say in in college i think i pulled something
close to 72 hours straight once but man that was like almost 30 years ago so that going there again
well uh uh last year going to OCP live if i you know uh not to drone on about that because
apparently i did earlier today but you are uh but uh maybe i've mentioned maybe i
maybe i haven't before but uh i i had these friends come at welts it's the uh lady helps me uh
take care of dad once a week you know bathing and and stuff not to get in it but i had them come
out for the weekend you know stay with him while i was gone but i i had to clean up the house and all
that stuff and clean their kids were gonna come and so i clean out two bedrooms because we you know
it had to clean out the guest room which had been the junk room for years and then my dad's room
which he does he hasn't used uh in years because he can't get from the living room to there or whatever
so but so you know uh i i had had the intention before getting on the flight at like 4 a.m. was to
or you know to go to bed at seven or eight in the in the evening and i was still working on stuff
till um you know so at the end i had maybe two hours between then and when i need you know when
i finish stuff when i need to leave as well now i'm if i go to bed i'm not gonna get anything done so
you know so when i when i got got on the plane and flew out there i'd been you know i'd been up
like 36 hours so yeah you know i i just uh you know i uh jumped jumped in the car about 2 a.m.
drove drove to the airport and you know i i i thought i wouldn't make it through the day was so cool
and talking you know everybody it's just i i kind of picked picked right up but man that that
when i finally went to bed that night that that that was the best sleep i've had in years
yeah yeah i mean i i've done that kind of thing as well we we go traveling and you you'll end up
being awake for a long time you know you don't sleep on the plane you don't sleep on the car if you
not driving you know you just end up being awake for a very long time i thought he'd never get to
that point in that story just try not to talk to customs after 48 hours of no sleep yeah that's
when they take your stuff well of course i kept apparently i kept if you talk to paggy i kept
everybody else awake because it turns out that i snore oh so staying awake is just your attempt
not to uh get kicked off the plane mid air yeah i worried remember to take gum this time man
you know that that would have kept me awake uh you know uh it's been years since i flown it's
it's just the the the pressure equalization and of course going back some you know somebody
told me well take two gum and then it'll it'll fix that and i never got around the buying any
gums so this this this year i'm taking gum with me well according to something i heard recently
it will fix the uh pressurizing in your ears it will also cause higher levels of flatulence
that i can deal with you have a kid everybody around you deal with it i don't care i don't i'm
not gonna see them again especially if they eject you from the plane again mid air yeah
yeah it's one thing to lose your luggage it's another thing to lose that platform you're floating on
well it's good what i would say as well as the whole being awake thing um so there's like one
car online i know for example um you always always like oh i i can stay up awake for days and then
then we get tired and and i get to sleep when i get tired and i'm not well by the sun and so yeah
i mean some people can apparently stay awake like a few days without getting all all tired
but like obviously not many in that case five minutes
yeah five minutes until the bus there's two times names left doesn't it really
we're in a bit quiet every way well i guess uh we started talking about staying awake and getting
tired and all our soul men start to uh head back to bed i don't know what uh no uh
all right yeah yeah see yeah sound uh serum chase was being waiting in these 26 hours apparently
and you'll see hours behind as well 51 50 what time is it for you to
well i we're not we're on the same time so it's five in the morning for uh for both of us but
i i've slept twice since this has started i i can't i can't say about sandy
yeah i've slept about 15 minutes you know knotted off for about 15 minutes
i um yeah i got to i decided to kind of leave and about 4am last night and then i got
sleep and uh came back and we're into three minutes away from the last hour folks
hard to believe isn't there one more midday or is there not
may you tc yeah and it's now almost 11 o'clock in your time correct yeah yeah so there should be two left
yeah no there one one that we're coming up on now in three minutes and then the last one and then
that's it yeah what's what's getting saying is that that last one will be it after that so two two more
everybody have two more markers and then we'll have enough time before ours to keep same case
awake yeah we're all you will not be keeping me awake because i will be out of here
jenna the nadeus back good morning jenna then
this is a big job we see your lips lashing jenna then we do not hear your voice
and and candid we all go deaf hello can you hear me i'm speaking here you can
stay see two minutes nope jenna no luck try turning it off and then on again i have had an
olibullah folks you don't have to tune into my how holland rucks series on hpr to find out what
that means holland how holland rucks yes eight down now i was thinking that when he said
beyond the sea because holland is and then they set some of the water back from the sea or
something like that didn't i do we do the only country in the world who has expanded the borders
through conquest of nature as opposed to conquest of other civilizations yeah well you forget
no orlands they're sort of an undersea people as well yep and in the us we have so much land we
flood it 50 seconds to go folks sound chasers fall asleep go to sleep nope i'm not asleep i'm right here
wide awake believe me i started drinking coffee so i'm i'm going to be wide awake until i hit the bed
i'm fine i'm wide awake yeah that's something you've done it then the whole 26 hours really
oh we have to we have to get him to sleep in the last hour or so he's met at this bar
and fails at the end yeah i think i'm i'm sure i i missed every uh us uh uh time zone change
yeah yeah yeah you did all right i went to sleep today
america samoa midway at all us and one more that's aloofi midway and pongo pongo and the last two
remaining islands are on inhabited happy new year happy new year we were actually there to celebrate
happy new year unless there's a bongo boatload of drunken teenagers who've gone out to bake our
island and hanoi island just to be the last people to welcome in 2030 which of course is what
i do if i had endless amounts of money then again if i was doing that i probably really write a
script to a horror movie as well so let's see let's see if janderson sound is working so we can
actually do a plug for the accessible computing founding if you want to go back in time if you
want to go back in time there's one last chance you have to go to stay as islands you have to go on
the plane or whatever and you're back to 2013 for bit anyway can't hear you janderson still not
working janderson let's go say we could give a a new year shout out to that green piece ship up
there up north that uh went up there to uh prove global warming and and there's been it frozen in
the ice uh ever since and i guess they're probably experiencing uh new years and every time zone
i wonder how that works um officially if you're just sitting on the north pole itself right to
that particular spot you have all the time zones up once i just face it's like a fiat and see time
the zones don't really exist well now they're made by horse really i bet they're freaking tired of
hearing all glang zine yeah 26 hours of more than that because i mean you have some of those half
hour and 15 minute mark ones in there too yeah true the 15 minute ones are crazy i can get behind
the time zones don't really exist theory because i don't really have any fiat currency
he lives or does he i'm not certain at this point
face of that point balls of the world he crawls out it's poke yeah yeah it's early what are you doing
up dude um i i woke up i figured i'd come finish it off with you guys i was just thinking
would it be better versus next year just to do the day the day after as opposed to the day before
i don't know i don't know i think no i like the idea of it starting the day before and in the
hole and through but you can do the whole day after if you want as well yeah well do you go
on a walk even yeah you don't have a wife who doesn't talk to you for a week because you've
you've been in the backroom doing a new year show the whole time when you should be up with the kids
the day after i don't know if i was pointing it for a day is going to help you
the day after when work because it's the that's the day that most people have off of work officially
so it's the recovery day yeah well what a better day to come on and just chat with friends
just an idea just an idea what a better day of sleeper you kid me i'm going to sleep after this
yeah the only reason you need to sleep is because you're up on like talking to us of course then
you would be up the little tonight talking to us yeah yeah then have to go to work okay i get
through point yes bad this way isn't it but we let us be done i don't know what you guys but
feels like we're trapped in Arctic ice here man it's got to be in the single digits out there today
so i'll see oh it was it was in the 50s here today well what temperature system are you working come
on what what are you talking about okay here we go well only one only one that i know of
well there's some a great end Fahrenheit and we normally use Fahrenheit here in the us
and right now where i'm at it's 10 degrees but the low temperature for today is going to be negative
two 10 degrees f 10 degrees Fahrenheit 10 degrees Fahrenheit
oh according to my little weather station here 46 degrees Fahrenheit with cloud cover
minus 12 is 10 degrees for those of us who are using a proper temperature system 40
vatis now i get two different readings my little weather app on my screen is telling me nine
Fahrenheit i don't know what that is in celcius how can for example from 10 degrees being minus 12
celcius of 45 degrees being seven degrees celcius that's because that's because jandou is way
down south in dexas no i mean the temperature scale a Fahrenheit is on on a Fahrenheit scale
freezing point of water is 32 which would be zero on celcius
you know the scales are not linear yeah next to each other and yeah it's some really weird ratio
it's not a straightforward ratio at all now okay let's celcius is like it goes up in increments
surely why Fahrenheit can somebody please do a show on Fahrenheit and explain to me the logic behind
Fahrenheit also goes up in increments and it goes down in increments too there is no logic
kid it's it's it's like our measuring system some bloke stuck his foot in the mud and measured that
and that that was that was our measuring stick and then he divided it by 12 instead of 10 but
you know even i'll be the first one to bet that you know that that the the the the celcius and
and the the whole metric system makes makes a whole lot more sense but it's just our as old people
over here in the US we can't visualize we don't know what a centimeter is or a kilometer and we
and we you know we we sure as hell don't know what centigrade is yes centigrade I don't know if
I could even get used to it because you just don't have enough lines between freezing and boiling
okay that makes no sense whatsoever you got a hundred lines between there we got two hundred and
twelve no we got less than two hundred twelve we got about a hundred eighty so our increments are
closer together so we can we can I mean I can I can tell the difference in my house between
70 or between 68 degrees and 66 degrees maybe even 67 I can tell you you know if if it's a
little cold like no oh look at that the temperature is a little lower you know so I mean but in
centigrade the difference there would be how three and what maybe just one one line or I don't know
but yeah so but you can't tell the difference between a one degree Celsius Celsius versus
one degree higher Celsius I can't tell you the difference between one degree Celsius and 54
degrees Celsius because it's just not I don't I don't know what they each feel like
I guess we should do it on speed limit because I'd have a good excuse
you know if I was five kilometers hour over the speed limit because I you know I get pulled over
and I'd tell the cop I don't know how the hell fast I'm going I don't understand this and the
cop would say you know I I don't understand it either and I go to the judge and judge would say
no hell I don't understand how fast that is just go on your way well here's the thing when
Ireland moved from the imperial it had imperial cis metric system for distances for ages but
all the speed limits were in miles per hour and when they switched to kilometers per hour they
had advertisements on and they had billboards and everything of explain and we're going to this
and the judicial system said right it will not be tolerated the first person who used attempts to
use this as a defense is going to get is going to get slapped in the face everybody knows about this
and few people tried it and they got the maximum fine well I wanted to say is yeah the
the primary thing I have no idea how you can do sales yes and then the then yeah the miles
and the kilometers per miles now is not one because basically all of Europe is in the
kilometers per hour as far as I know but the UK is still on miles and yeah if you give
over to Europe you have to figure out what the kilometers per hour and also what I wanted to say
here as well is I was just wondering if we had the first part of the hacker public new years radio
put up on website like last year but I've just checked and it seems to be up because I remember last
time when it came up the first three hours quite soon after the well what's this show was still on
about this time I think actually yeah that was because last year we needed to the show needed to
be posted for the following day but and now that we have pre-recorded shows the slots are available
next week so I'm not going to step on my posting shows when they can come and they can do this next
am I still on this or just yes I must have gone wrong on my mumble because it should have
cut putt me off now I'll close it down again it will be better that way well okay here I was going
to say this last year you just need to break it up into an hour at a time and you've got you've
got a whole month of shows yeah but that's not the point nobody can take down I think I don't
need to close it down and I think it went off anyway I was surprised we were cutting them into two
hour chunks I thought that was too many shows to stretch it out over no it's it's an easy editing
and recutting chunk size so if we need to go ahead and take like an hour off another show and
put it together make a three hour and then take the another half and put it on the next one
and make it into three hour it's more easily done with two you know with three two hour chunks
then it is with having a whole bunch of three or four hour chunks well I've reserved five slots
so if there's more now we decide whether we're going to put it out in five slots or more slots
than that but then a hookah's statistics and polling is going to come out in between well I mean
you could always break it up if you wanted to you know have the five registered slots that you
have for it and if it if it turns out to be more you know like I said we don't we don't have a
plethora of shows right now so fit them in as you go yeah we never have a plethora of shows but we
have as many shows as we have if you look at the calendars.php page which I'll post into the chat one
second so the calendars.php page we see that our way of six days to the next free slot which is
going to be the first week of the new year the first full week first monday the new year will be
the hp ratios this divided into five slots so that's going to be fairly fairly hefty slots but then at
the same time what's the point in dragging it out any longer. Well famously I'm going to say I'll
be right back after I get another beer you do that I can you guys hear me now yes go ahead over
hey how you doing that that's going to be that's going to be a painful trying because I
imagined you know there's there might be some spots where there's you know 20 minutes of kind of
deadness or you know whatever like this is someone actually going to sit through sit through that
to cut those chunks out yeah and I think the worst we've really had is maybe three minutes or so
of dead space so we really haven't had that much completely empty space overall okay yeah it would
be stunned if the longest thing was even three minutes I'd say a minute at the longest of absolute
silence well I think it was while you were asleep we kind of got down to like two or three people
in the room and okay and we all kind of got phased out for a little bit but it was enjoyable
also you missed another blind user some semi blind oh did you catch their name today user
real name or hey boy no core core oh really yeah he was in the mumble he's going to tune it
oh okay that's cool yeah he's over in Singapore so it was dinner time for him so he had to leave
oh okay that's cool morning guys happy new year happy new year happy new year morning
over new year it's gonna say that sounds like dull and happy new year
oh sound chase are you the only man man that stayed up all night yes I am
happy new yeah cheating what cheating using a soundboard what soundboard
you notice he just you just repeats the same thing every 26 every 26 replies you know
he just repeats the same thing every 26 replies I think you just put your theory to a halt there
well played sound chase sir hey we can hear you yes and I I could always hear you I thought
something I never really used the headphones on the laptop but it looks like when I accidentally
plugged the headphone into the microphone that like screwed with the microphone thing so for some
reason by re plugging the headphone in knowing it wasn't going to work kind of did whatever it had to
do and then the microphone started working so go figure I could be any number of things how well
are they labeled for you not at all don't you just hate computers sometimes oh yes and no another
weird thing you can have happen is if you're using the two jack thing if you get one like if you get
the microphone plugged in all the way but the headset not quite plugged in all the way it can
mess with the microphone depending on how the headset's wired yeah well plus if the the two are
on the same you know a board or whatever that you know that messes with it also my buddies got one
that just the idea of it infuriates me and it's it's only one jack from microphone and headphones
or headphones I should say that's wrong yeah and the computer knows the difference it hasn't made
them say wrong yet because what if you need both at the same time there are adapters it messes
with the quality too like I imagine the quality isn't that great it does matter with the quality
to some degree but that's what I'm using right now not a great defense I'll admit
no your sounds all right but why should anyone have to buy in a day after when they're out of
just be two holes there oh the device is down to you think enough to do what it really comes
down to is that's what's used on cell phones and so their basic idea is that that's what's used
on cell phones so you can now use the cell phone headset here boy I'm glad we shut the past
that statement really fast but it blows me in a way that on cell phones and tablets now that the
audio port is a data device well sort of it's as much a data device as a hand radio is a data
device right yeah I don't want to gloss over the one that you just said where the device might not
be big enough and I don't think that's a valid argument against having only one jack on a laptop
I mean especially this guy's laptop it's like a 16 inch laptop I think just there's plenty of room
well no it's not the idea of the jack room itself it's the idea that you already have a
headset that has a microphone built in why not put them on the same thing yeah that argument I
can buy but in that case you know I would still argue for give me three then give me the one first
standard you know a mono microphone one first stereo headphones and if you want another jack
that's got you know five rings on the pin give it a third one there yeah but they
think that annoys me about regular headphone headset things is that they've got these two
dangly wires one plugs in one side and on some laptops it's even more frustrating is you have one
they headset jack is in one side of the laptop and on the other side is the microphone jack
so your cable isn't physically capable of going around the whole way you know there's no excuse
for that either the other thing you have to realize is that many of the jacks these days are not
designed with the idea of taking a standard headset from say a phone which has more rings
because of that because of the way everything was designed that actually screws up listening on
those unless you slightly pull the jack out otherwise what they could do on that same device is
set it up similar to blackberry and otherwise where you can use a standard set of headphones in
that headphone jack but you can also use that single port as a headset jack allowing the microphone
functionality as well you still have two jacks but you still have both functionalities involved at
kind of on topics speaking of cell phones or whatever has anyone physically touched a Firefox
OS phone that sounds so wrong did someone say that's wrong no that is so wrong just the way it was
phrased went wrong in my mind oh yeah I can you haven't seen any out in the wilder any in your
neck of the woods haven't seen any out here now only person I know if one is Jesra yeah I saw
I stumbled across the video the other day where someone posted a link to it and they're actually
working on a I don't know how far along this this video seemed a little old but they're actually
getting a screen reader working on it so I was pretty excited about that that's pretty good
yeah I get out in a different kind of wild so I haven't seen a Firefox phone yet I haven't even
seen a video one to be honest with you what um so Android is not accessible at all because I know
the how it is okay yeah I mean it you know it that that's a whole not a tangent I mean it's
it's a accessible issue whatever but I mean it it is but I'm I'm just more interested in
Firefox OS because like we'll probably really never see it in the States that we're really not
even going to talk our audience they could probably kind of care less about if we if they ever saw
any in the US but um I just think it's a really interesting concept I could I can really see
Firefox OS you know eating the very low-end market like we're all we're no key it was dominating
for years and how they own like you know 60% of the world's you know cell phone usage or whatever
I really think Firefox could step in and take that usage away and so that's why I'm interested
in it becoming you know accessible and stuff because then that many more people will hopefully have
you know an accessible phone yeah I only buy low-end phones so you're you're talking to me if that's
my market segment they've got some hardware manufacturers already for Firefox OS I think but yeah
I mean anybody typing Africa I'll have the askables said so yes the weathering well isn't really
the target but maybe if all these Chromebooks and so on you're popular then they'll for my
thing going in there trying to get Firefox OS out on tablets and phones and drug big
worlds as well maybe they'll do that out tonight we'll see you I guess on on similar note I wonder
what the usability would be for a blind user on an Android phone are there apps to assist with say
reading things for you or similar yes but it's kind of this is kind of a two-pronged thing or
whatever for the first like for using a tablet in a phone for me are extremely extremely annoying
like I you know maybe I'm just you know maybe I'm just right at that point where I just feel
more comfortable you know the keyboard and you know with stuff like that I could never see myself
like having a tablet as like my main thing I I can't I can't get anything done like typing is
horrific you know it would take me forever it would take me like literally 15 minutes of
typing email like it's it's just so annoying I could never use the use a phone or a tablet as
like my main device and even as like a in-between device it's still extremely frustrating so yeah
I'm not I'm not a fan at all of like tablets of phones if you're you know if you're a vision
impaired or blind like yeah you know it has a screen reader I run my finger across the screen
and it tells me what my finger is over even though it's doing that it's there's still a I'm I
still take my time dragging my finger because even though it's announcing what's my fingers over I
still have to make my way to that you know icon or whatever widget when you can see you can
easily just food fly your fingers around and get to where you're going even though it's still talking
it it's still not you know that effective when you drag your finger across the screen and you get
where you want to be is it then is it still difficult to tap what you actually want because
I mean you you don't know when you lift your finger if it's still exactly right there do you know
what's kind of cool those I say five you know I drag over to like an email app that I'm going to
open I would drag my finger and just double tap kind of right there I could even drag my finger
over lift it up and double tap somewhere totally different and it would still open that app nine
times out of ten it holds a lock on that yeah yeah that's good I will say one thing I've liked
about a new one I've looked at the stratosphere do I think it is samsung phone you open up the
slide out keyboard and it actually does have the indicative dots on the f and j keys so you can
orient yourself somewhere on that keyboard yeah I had a samsung epic 4g and it had on the
silent keyboard it had the the dots there also which was nice well Jonathan I got to say I
mean it's it's hard enough for those of us who can actually see the darn thing uh to to type
on an android device yeah yeah and I am just I I've said this before but I am in awe that you can
you know that not being able to see you can you you can actually do anything useful with these
things because you're your way ahead of me and and I can see the blasted thing yeah it's it's
terribly frustrating I mean I I really only have android devices because I've been poking around
with building um custom ROMs for android so I have an x7 that the pod nuts network graciously
donated to me so I've been working on building custom ROMs basically kind of like a sonar
you know type ROM but for android so I've been messing around with that but I'm not really doing
that for myself I mean I'm I'm seeing there's more and more blind users using android and like a
lot of blind users are buying like the Nexus 7 and stuff so I'm just trying to you know build ROMs
for probably the majority of like Nexus devices at this time only because do we do them yep Jonathan
we lost you okay well I guess I always want to say it's game sons and one good morning happy new year
hey good morning good morning sons of man one one yes and and happy new year as well
happy any happy year well I wanted to say is um I'm not really that keen on phones or tablets
well touch screen for different reasons but I've really used a laptop and desktop and so normal
keyboards and I've also got touch type of experience of 16 years so about 16 years now so when I
get on a phone or a tablet I'm going to put in a message it's just completely different it's just
slow you go get used to it and you know when you can oh mom and a keyboard I can just type and type
and type and type and um so yeah quite a keyboard and that's the other one that there's that
other keyboard now a DVO or a K or something and some people think that's a lot better you know it's
like it's not mainstream I think you some you know the one I mean it's like that why would I
change from quality to to study keyboard out the same kind of thing like the thing that the whole
thing again once again marketing marketing if people will buy it then somebody is willing to make
it and sell it yeah well no it's not necessarily marketing devorat keyboard's been around for
quite a long time it's not a new keyboard it's it's people are buying it because it is more efficient
it's just awkward to learn yeah but yes actually basic but then if you learn quality for 16 years
like I'm saying then you'd have to like sort of all that knowledge would just sort of like okay
you have to start completely yeah but would it really be adventure would you really get an
advantage learning the other way you know well you're talking about starting over but if you
started from scratch and never bothered learning quality then yes devorat is more efficient you
move your fingers much less and much less distance everything is you know it's laid out the most
popular letters in the language are your home row keys and you know the the less off and the
keys use the further away from your finger it is actually I was going to point out historically
the reason the Quarty keyboard layout was actually chosen for the original typewriters was to
deliberately slow type is down down because when they actually had hours like the devorat layout
and a couple of other variations they found out that people who learned a type could actually type
too fast on a mechanical keyboard so they actually switched to the Quarty style to actually
slow people down I have heard that deep I have heard that debunked well that is so
cool how my voice comes through when somebody else has a key down but now I've heard that story
debunked you know that they they set up the typewriter that deliberately so you know because
their race typed on old mechanical typewriter at least people my age and gone fast enough that
the hammers have gotten all tied up in in the center but I've heard that you know I've heard
to the way that that's no really it's no faster one way than another according to the studies
that I've seen on it it's not so much that devorat is any faster it's more what you learn is faster
if it's what you learn the biggest problem with learning devorat at this point is to use it on
every computer you come across you're going to have to carry a keyboard or just not ever look
the keys I mean if you know where they are you know where they are the the real efficiency in the
devorac and I don't use one so this is only what I've heard from people is not just in speed though
there is a speed advantage it's that your fingers move less so you're you've got you know less
rsi type of strain from it is the way I've always heard people talk about it
well you see yeah yeah can come on man happy new yeah happy happy new you welcome that paper
hey boopie happy new you okay okay just to kind of go back and talk about this again
actually the query keyboard it wasn't necessarily so much to slow type us down
but it was actually because of the mechanical nature of the original type writers it was the
range of the keys the keys that worked best for the mechanical physical key layout as far as the
the type the hammerheads that actually had to hit the paper can try again I had to mute you for no
okay left yeah this happened to him yesterday like fairly near the beginning and he had
actually even come back yeah you're at the same time of day can you hear me again over yeah yes we
can now okay good uh you lost your point about the devorac keyboard versus the other keyboard
and that was yeah you got to write it was designed to be as fast as possible both prevent
mechanical overlaps on the keys oh there you go the mechanical overlap so it's ready for
to forget about that yeah well we got uh boopie here I want to take a divergent uh what we're
talking about to to to ask him and uh you know I know you think probably I troll against canonical
but uh I thought you might you might have the inside skinny on on this there you know there's this
distro watch uh report uh they talked to uh one of the guys inside mint that something about
canonical said uh you know we we would like mint to uh pay a licensing fee for access to the uh
I guess the repositories and I you know you know I didn't know boopie if you're in a position to say
uh yay or nay is this is this a thing uh you know I would like to put this to bed because so many
people will let him answer that's right if he wants to carry on asking I don't know
are there any other points well well I guess what's the story you probably heard us on the
on the interwebs just interested to to hear yeah I I know as much as you guys know uh in terms of
the story so uh I know there's been some discussions um between canonical and clean um and that's
been reported as well um I don't I don't know the content of any of the communication that's gone
between them other than what's been reported publicly um because I don't work in the legal team
and I don't work in the tea the I'm not senior management that would deal with those kind of things
but I do have a personal opinion on this which I'm happy to express and may come as a result of
me being a canonical employee but it's also part of me being a member of the Ubuntu community
so for a head the the way so we have uh flavors of Ubuntu and those flavors are all built from
the archive so Ubuntu, Ubuntu, Ubuntu, Ubuntu, Edubuntu, Ubuntu Studio and so on
you know what I mean X sorry look lone remix as well more recently uh yes yes yes you're right yes
there I keep forgetting that one because it's new and I'm keep I often recite the full list and
I always forget one uh and on this occasion it was no remix now the thing about those flavors is
they're all built from packages in the archive which is one point the second point about them is
that the people who maintain those flavors help to curate the packages that are in the archive so
we work as a team curating the packages that are in the archive and part of that is to ensure that
we don't stamp on each other's feet you know so a change that Ubuntu requires for KDE maybe a
cute package change doesn't mess up the Ubuntu flavor or something the Ubuntu Studio people do
doesn't mess up the mplayer or ffmp packages that are relied on by the other um flavors so with that
said um the that means there's a close collaboration between all those flavors and they work together as
teams right what you have with derivatives is derivatives take Ubuntu and they
respinate for some other reason whether that's a new desktop or uh in the case it's been you know
cinnamon and uh marty or um uh or some other distro that might want to add a security spin for
example or you know for whatever reason um you know people have their own ideas uh of what they
want to do uh and and that's fine and we're perfectly fine with people you know respining Ubuntu
what you see with mint though is they take Ubuntu they respinate and they make um what seems
to be quite a popular derivative distribution and they replace all of the affiliate codes so we see
no revenue come back because it all goes to claim but all they users are still using the Ubuntu
archive so they're not rebuilding packages they're just pointing all the users at our archive that
we maintain at our cost and at our you know effort significant developer ever all those people
are running all those maintaining all those flavors are maintaining that archive mint points to
that archive and doesn't give anything back they don't put the packages back in the archive
they're in their own archive their own ppa's or whatever so there's a kind of imbalance there
that the mint guys are maintaining a derivative of Ubuntu not giving anything back and um getting
all the benefit if that makes sense yeah yeah yeah that's where I thought you were going with that
I kind of agree um it it seems like and I've always been kind of surprised whenever I've run mint
that all the packages are are you know tagged as Ubuntu and the repositories are Ubuntu's
repositories but it's true they didn't even it's like the Firefox user didn't drink I think yeah
it says Bunder in there doesn't it because that's what Ubuntu does they just kind of take from
Ubuntu basically all it basically is Ubuntu accepts little changes here and there could be
mates in a moon and then a few of their own poems and one thing there there is that but it you
know you there is the the common thread is that mint is Ubuntu with a different desktop you know
that's that's what some people will call mint you know in short the 32nd elevator pages mint
is Ubuntu with a different desktop but it's not quite just that there are other changes as well
there are packages that are held back there are you know recently the discussion that triggered all
of this was that on of a graver on a mailing list happened to say you know I wouldn't use mint
personally because and then he cited some reasons why yeah yeah that's cool I think the security
one that we're probably referring to but yeah yes so you know he was referring to the fact that
by default mint holds back security updates which seems you know not a good idea for their users
you know Clems responded to that but there are significant enough changes between Ubuntu and mint
that it's not the same in that a package might not install on mint that installs on Ubuntu so
you could go to some third party developer website of your favorite app and it says here are the
downloads and you see a download for Ubuntu you think okay I'm running mint which I know this
close enough to Ubuntu that I could download the Ubuntu Deb and it should install and everything
will be fine and actually we in Ubuntu the Ubuntu community get people coming to us because packages
don't work on mint now yes that's that's the mint people sending you know people in our direction
and we're we're doing the work the support work to help people get stuff working and we do help
people get stuff working on something that isn't even our distro doesn't give back to us doesn't
put packages in our archives so I can can I can completely see why canonical might say to mint hey
look you know we need to come some agreement here because you know you're getting all the benefit
and not giving us anything back one second so what is the correct procedure then from your point of
view they would do like what you do to Debian you take the source code you rebuild everything from
scratch and you'd host your own repels or would it be enough to take one copy of their repels and
hosted on on their own F2B server is it is this a pure resource from the point of view of
maintaining the servers or is this a more ideal ideological thing where you don't want them having
access to your binaries I know that's a lot of question but go ahead I don't say there's more
to it from what he just said yeah it's not as simple as that I think there's far too many nuanced
points to be able to say well the answer is you should take the source code and rebuild yourself
that that that partially fixes one of the issues of you know just using the archives that doesn't
address the fact that they're not maintaining the packages in the archive well no one's like if
there if you if they took your source code yeah that you've developed and they put it on their
own servers and they use those as the repels surely wouldn't that be exactly what you're doing to
to Debian repels no it is but that's only part of the problem that's that's not I just want to I
just want to address this issue before we go on to the next one well no because that doesn't happen
why does that not address the issue that they they from an end user point of view is mint they
would see that the repels go to mint that would certainly be one that would be one contributing
factor if mint took the Ubuntu archive and rebuilt it for Ubuntu you know of rebuilt it for
mint in exactly the same way as steam did steam took the Debian archive all the bits of the Debian
archive that they need and rebuilt it and made steam OS so you're doing with Debian or am I missing
something here yes that but that's part of it I'm okay I think what you're doing is you're trying
to nail down everything to one simplistic no no I want to I want to nail down the first part about
okay there's the resource issue what if if I was in the mint community and I was able to donate
them servers what would I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying the issue is I'm not saying
the issue is one of bandwidth pointing at our servers that is that's yeah that that doesn't
get that but you're all that's a tiny part of it that's you're focusing on the smallest part
no I'm sorry poppy I want to address that issue first before I go on well you can keep on asking
but I'm telling you that's not the okay we've dealt with that one I now want to want to talk
about package maintenance don't don't I'm trying deliberately not to put you on the spot I don't
want to go either side of this but so we've dealt with the maintenance issue of the thing now can
we move on to the package maintenance the other aspects that you were discussing sure but it didn't
sound like package maintenance was the sticking point can it sounds like branding is the sticking
point because when somebody has a problem with with their mint install their contacting canonical for
help and I get that I understand so if they recompile what they really have to do is take the branding
out and and rebrand it which does do with the Debian repose and you know that's exactly the same
as if you if you run them onto and you go and join hash Debian on IRC of TC or whatever they're
they'll you know tell you where to go because my point was that if they were taking their servers
and they're reconpoiling the software I was I neglected to add in there that they remove all
Ubuntu branding which would be obvious that would make it clear to their users that they're
going to a mint repo system so in that situation I think that would be the cleanest thing for them to
do I'm not sure I don't think that's the cleanest thing for them to do I think the cleanest thing for
them to do would be to get the packages in the archive so that you could create so mint could
effectively be a flavor you know what would not be better than to just contribute even further upstream
we go to Debian and contribute them there yeah so I said the archive what I mean by that is you
know get it into Ubuntu somehow if they continue to be able to derivative then that could go into
Debian or it could go directly into Ubuntu it doesn't it yes going into Debian is better okay just
to just to make one point when you say I think the cleanest thing to do is etc etc etc you're
expressing a personal opinion correct yeah all right because because this can this is this
can rapidly become you know the canonical Ubuntu representative said no no no that's not what
we want well I think I think probably was very clear when he started this that he did not have any
way of knowing any of the actual canonical positions he has a personal opinion only and
and make sure to make sure that's in the show notes as well and one additional point was that it
was a suggestion from me and Pope Pope agreed but that's I don't think that that's any different
really that's a normal standard way that distributions make a downstream distribution that's how
you take the Linux kernel you maintain it on your you maintain your copy you compile in your
stuff I mean that's just how forking happens correct me for wrong folks yeah but well I want
to what I want to say actually is min isn't really like a pop of thought because you know my
year is a good example they really did for quandary where they took everything they rebasted
they sat down bills structure but when in case of min it's like what Pope he's saying they're
just really what they do with 19 to say 99% of the packages or about that they're just taking
them straight from a bunch because they are derivative they're based on the band is not really a
pop of fork in the sense of what I just said and then that's also why the bunch of branding is in
for certain things still as well because it's just going straight from a band who I don't know
narrative not really a fork in the sense of a pop of fork like I just tried to explain right and
I don't know if there's I don't know if there's an issue using the Ubuntu branding I don't know
if that's that's an issue that's I think that's a contributing factor to why people and and the
historical knowledge that people have that you know any of the commas mint is Ubuntu with a
different desktop so people and and mint is Ubuntu based on Ubuntu whatever version so those facts
that are in the you know in the public sphere contribute to people's belief that mint is binary
compatible with Ubuntu okay I would you know I would argue with the supposition that
the only difference between mint and Ubuntu is the different desktop because you can you can grab
Ubuntu and put pretty much whatever desktop you want on it and it's great right you can argue
with the supposition but that's how it's explained you know we're someone trying to simplify it
and they're trying to use the fewest keystrokes possible that's how it's done I would I would I
would say the main difference people see between mint and Ubuntu is that mint rolls in the codex
which may not be quite kosher with the laws of you know every country where they might be used
it's a difference between a distro that that is put out by a company where you have to be conscious
of your response your legal responsibilities and between a you know a hobbyist distro where they're
not going to come after you for for rolling in those codex those right right from the start
5150 you're you're saying that it's illegal to do what he's doing it's not from he's based in
Ireland it's not illegal to distribute the codex if you download them into the US if you download
that distribution in the US then you're taking the responsibility for doing what he's doing is
perfectly legitimate in the jurisdiction jurisdiction and which he is best I didn't I just need
to clarify that point just in case people think mint is doing anything illegal they're not in
jurisdiction where they're best yep this is correct okay fit what you're you done can I actually
ask a fellow up with Popeye here well no I just wanted to point out as far as the jurisdiction
there there is a big difference between a corporation where people could come after you and say well
no matter where you're based people in in this jurisdiction are down are able to download it
and somebody who's you know just just doing a a hobbyist distro I mean there's one one is
one is not like the other and one one has to be hamstrung uh by the international laws
so that you're not constantly uh uh uh uh fighting off uh legal considerations and and that's all I
want that's all I want to say on that I mean I I don't perfectly understand why canonical
can't throw throw those codecs in where uh meant or you know any other derivative distro can no
that's not correct at all it's strictly the jurisdiction it's strictly where the server is based
and the person downloading it assumes the liability the legal responsibility the legal liability
for what's been done it has nothing to do with whether or not it's an individual or a corporation
they both are susceptible to the same laws and be holding to the same laws it's it's going
nothing to do with that yeah it's just to do with patents and um and well yeah it's to do with
patents uh uh all we have to do with jurisdiction and things like that and do you restrict yeah
restrictions but partly to do with patents what countries have patents so that's one example is
that I'll see other codecs and so on but I'll see USA has patents Japan has patents so actually
what minted as well they for magazines or I've seen it in the past and they were they had like a
version so they could like give out in Japan would have patents I think the USA as well without any
of the codecs and so I'm pre-installed as everyone else seen that before yeah they have a thing on
their on their website there's a cinnamon version and cinnamon no codecs version which they
describe as one for magazines companies and distributors in the US Japan and countries where
the legalization allows patents to apply to software and distribution of restricted technologies
that may require the acquisition of third-party licenses okay before we get tied up in the
debate can sound chase you with a question we can come back to the MP3 debate later on yeah
Bobby I was going to say part of what I kind of take your point on this is that you you feel that
part of what may be an issue is that mint needs to actually maybe be more of a gay keeper
in terms of maybe at least vetting the problems that their users are reporting and then actually
kind of handling those and maybe reporting those upstream when it's appropriate or dealing with
them more themselves so that that actually removes some of the the extra burden that canonicals
maybe taking on I'm not sure what the solution is there the from from the support angle I mean
if you hang out in the Linux min IRC channel it you know it's pretty quiet and the same goes for
elementary OS both of these are derivatives that have you know they have a very popular yeah they've
got a lot they've got a lot of users they've got a wide user base they're popular distros and I
can completely see why both of them are you know quite popular but you know we in Ubuntu we've had
a support infrastructure in place for a very long time and people know about it and because they know
that those derivatives are based on Ubuntu when the IRC channels or whatever support mechanism they've
tried fails them you know by you know nobody responding within a five minute window or whatever
their expectations are they fall back to going to the Ubuntu support infrastructure and what you
don't see too often is people going to the Ubuntu support infrastructure not getting an answer
and then going to Debian that doesn't tend to happen in the same way that it does with mint and
elementary users coming to Ubuntu support does that make sense yeah yeah so I think if I can
just summarize here and I'm not trying to in any way diss either projects because I think they're
both valid I think mint is falling between pillar and post here that it's it's not an Ubuntu
derivative and yet it is yes it is on the other hand so and now faced with the popularity up until
now it hasn't been that much of an issue but faced with the popularity it is causing a significant
drain on canonical resources would that be correct or am I putting words in your mouth again
I wouldn't I wouldn't put it like that I wouldn't say that they're causing a significant
drain of resources I think I would yeah it's it I don't know it's it's a tough one because they're
not so wicked as they say they're not a they're not a derivative like uh Kate you know I don't
like I'm the other ones are they are no official derivative they are derivative they are
they're not a rich bit they're not on official clinical recognize one and also they're not really
a pop of fork of a district like I was saying earlier because haven't haven't put all the packages
from Ubuntu and just and put them in their own repos and so on they've just they're basically
just using the Ubuntu repos for most of it like we said earlier and that's the whole discussion
on about as well so in that sense they're not like a pop of fork either but yeah they are
on the off unofficial due to the base on Ubuntu and there's something else to want to say about
Unity and we might as well do it now but Popeye wasn't here now I think we're in this again
back I am well I you are back right sorry can I just can I just finish off yeah I think I said um so
Ken um I wouldn't say they're making a significant drain on resources but you know they it's
it's it's I think it's just I would rather mint we're a team player I think I feel like
they it we would all benefit if they did you know put their packages in the
Debian or Ubuntu archive and yeah it became a somewhat more um you know contributing member
of the community like all the other flavors are either either either become part of the Ubuntu
project or start their own project uh independent and contribute patches back like a normal uh
upstream yeah maybe that all stream relationship or yeah we'll have that similar you know um
separate archive yeah that that's an option as well but you know these are things that I'm sure
are being discussed between Clemen and you know the relevant people in them until although
probably not right now over Christmas I was a lot very surprised to hear you say that the the
bandwidth usage on the repository servers is the smallest part of the concern is that is that an
opinion or is that it's an Ubuntu statement that's been made do well I suspect well you know
personally I believe that mint has an order of magnitude fewer users than Ubuntu and an order
of magnitude fewer users than people think it does the the the popularity of mint on in the
echo change the internet which includes distro watch yes um I think makes mint look a lot more
popular than it really is yeah just we want to be the first to admit that it's page rankings
so yeah okay that's let's be clear on that the other thing is that the vast the the archive don't
forget that the archive we have a chunky build infrastructure you know we have if you go to
launchpad.net slash I think it's slash builders or something you can see you know a list of all the
boxes that we have that build uh for uh x86 um 32 bit 64 bit ARM HF power pc um and it's not
cheap for us to run all of that and the the the mirrors are mostly third parties who donate their
bandwidth which is why I say you know the bandwidth for their mirrors is probably not a big issue
because they're not run by us they're run by contributors and they're probably not an issue
at the second point because um I don't think mint makes that much of a dent in the bandwidth
on the archive okay all right fair enough now it's a period of course we get a new year's eve here
for we too going further we're about to leave the end of the show yeah we have small regions of
USA actually you know it's time chase you've been here the whole time why don't you finish it off
oh i'll let you finish it off and then uh i can kick off all the design after all right
go for a fun new and can you have done no no no music stream there's bakers island
Howard island uh and i guess those are us territory so happy new years just tell me
go ahead happy new year i'm new to it okay let's do a talk guys i'm impressed you guys
i have run for so long so i'm stuck shut up
sounds I don't know its weird
all the questions b for first time
Yeah, it was down in the devil, so we'll go and go view that in YouTube too.
I'm new to per second.
Well, now it's an excellent opportunity to sing the free song for a song.
Do you only put that on when I'm here?
Just keep knowing I don't like it.
No, he does it all.
Freedomator, okay.
Freedomator.
Yeah.
Thanks very much for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
That's good fun.
While we're waiting for this, I would like to miss, do my traditional try and thank everybody
and film is really.
I'd like to thank Kevin, Wisher, Corbord 2, John the Nice Guy, Rocky, K5 Tucks, John the
Nice Guy, Ross and TLLTS for providing mirrors for today's show.
Yeah, even crayon.
I'd cue the next stream as crayons, I believe.
crayon is all, so basically everybody who put a lot of effort into getting this thing
up and running really appreciate it.
Yeah, did TILTS ever come back up today?
I had understood that their provider went down for a large day.
It's up now, there's four streams on it.
Yeah, I'd like to thank Sound Chaser for being here for the whole thing.
Big thanks.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Let's try unmuting it again and see what happens.
Okay.
Do you want to see where do you work?
I give up, I guess we're not going to get it.
I don't know what happened.
Give me a minute, I'll find the text and post it into the pad.
Oh, I don't know if I'm up for singing, Old Lang's Eye.
Yeah, so it's interesting, probably the way you've talked about this.
Because to me it sounded like the first acceptable solution that came to my mind was to do like
a centauss thing where they take the branding out, they recompile, and they hosted themselves.
And then that should cure all of the canonical complaints.
But I like your idea that they just upstream instead and get along better.
Because I always prefer cooperation to, I don't know, I guess diversification, maybe call it or forking.
Yeah.
So I like your answer there a lot.
And it's worked for the others.
Look at the most recent additions to the Ubuntu family are Lubuntu and the GNOME remix.
It's worked for them.
Now I have a version GNOME shell derivative.
If that's what you want.
If you like the Ubuntu archive and also prefer GNOME shell over any of the other test stops,
then knock yourself out with that similar with Mint.
If you prefer Cinnamon, but like the stability of an LCS, then that would be a great option
to have like a Minty Ubuntu or whatever you want to call it.
That I think that would be great too.
I don't know.
I've got it working now.
Woohoo!
One of those needs to pick the unmute.
You do it, Ken.
Oh.
Oh.
Oh.
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Oh.
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Oh.
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Oh.
Oh.
Well, happy 2014 everywhere.
Yep.
You're just having 2014.
Yep.
There we go. Happy new year, happy 2014.
Happy 2014, everywhere.
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