Episode: 3429
Title: HPR3429: Linux Inlaws S01E39: Ubuntu and the Community
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3429/hpr3429.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-24 23:17:51

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3429 for Thursday, the 23rd of September 2021.
Today's show is entitled, Linux in Laws S0139.
Ubuntu and the community and is part of the series Linux in Laws It is hosted by Monochromic
and is about 87 minutes long and carries an explicit flag.
The summary is all about your favorite to be in spin and IBM mainframes.
This episode of HPR is brought to you by archive.org.
Support universal access to all knowledge by heading over to archive.org forward slash donate.
This is Linux in Laws, a podcast on topics around free and open source software,
any associated contraband, communism, the revolution in general,
and whatever fence is your tickle. Please note that this and other episodes
may contain strong language, offensive humor, and other certainly not politically correct language
you have been warned. Our parents insisted on this disclaimer.
Happy Mom? Thus, the content is not suitable for consumption in the workplace,
especially when played back in an open plan office or similar environments.
Any minors under the age of 35 or any pets including fluffy little killer bunnies,
your trusty guide dog, unless on speed, and qt-rexes or other associated dinosaurs.
Welcome to Linux in Laws, a season 1 episode 39 of Not Completely Mistaken,
the one with canonical Martin Hower Things.
Yeah, I think it's a great, Chris. It's still sun still shining in the UK.
Yes.
Is it COVID-19?
Oh, perfect. This is the sweltering heat, like 22 degrees as well, over then in the UK.
No, this is a very cool 24, I think.
Ice, ice, ice, hidden early apparently the British child is too bad.
So, I don't know yourself today.
Can't complain. I mean, the effects of global warming are certainly setting in here.
We are now touching, I think, 27 or something like this.
Kind of mid-June.
Okay, but this is no weather show. This is actually Linux in Laws.
Your primary source, your primary source of, or your premier, premier source.
It's been, it's been long there.
Your premier source for fun, humor, and of course, open-source topics.
And today we have no other than Reese coming from canonical, but why don't you introduce the
referees?
Well, this isn't a weather show. I thought I was going to talk about the British weather.
No, sorry about this.
I said that it would be quite a long show.
I'm like, I use it eight hours.
Exactly, I don't have a lot of five minutes, I guess.
It's raining, it's overcast, it's too hot.
That'll do.
Right, yeah.
Fair enough.
15 seconds, right?
Well, see you guys.
It was thanks for having me, man.
Great to have you on the show.
Yep.
Yeah, let me introduce myself.
So my name is Reese Davis.
I work for a company called Canonical, the publishers of Ubuntu.
I have worked here for two, almost two years now, where I started as a product manager for a
number of Ubuntu or Ubuntu related products.
And then a number of months ago, I sort of made a switch to the community slash advocacy team.
Where I work with my new colleagues in community side of things.
I work with developers in an outside of the Ubuntu community to to make community events and to
make developing on Ubuntu a better experience.
And I work with themes in psychoanonical to help them approach and help them improve
and help them in general with their sort of community initiatives.
And I've been, I've been a big fan and a big proponent of open source and all of these things
for a while, although I haven't been in it and contributing as long as perhaps
or three of your listeners, I think you said.
And what they've been up to for now, I'm just a part of, I apologize.
Yeah, and I've just always been a big fan of all of the open source.
I've drunk all the cool aid and now I'm really in and hoping to
come to answer you guys' questions, hopefully answer some of your
your hundreds of fans questions and I really just just help things out.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, now I'm a pleasure,
I'm tempted to say, raise a quick question.
It's how, what we normally do is, essentially, we,
that has been a great intro all right.
But what drove Mr. Davis to open source originally?
maybe you can share some of that on your early years and how you arrived at the
open source ecosystem. So my early years were in university let's say that's when
I was that's when I was very young and where I was I was learning and I was
studying mechanical engineering and mechatronic engineering and as part of
that my as part of that and throughout university and throughout this
kind of schooling I gravitated towards the more open source things and the
and Linux and doing those kinds of these kinds of open projects and in the
meantime I was getting involved with various sort of different technological
technology communities and other kinds of communities online and really
sorting to to see and become a part of this kind of open source community
mentality and seeing the value of all of these things and how people interact
and contribute and get along together and so on and so whenever I was working
on projects of my own whether that was for for school or for my own self I would
be using open source projects and writing code for them and writing
documentation for them and seeing if I should be back to this this one left
that is open source and and I just saw it as a way as a really really good
and strong and and one of the best ways not just in terms of what you can get
for success but in terms of quality of experience and validation of
individuals to contribute and to to technology and so from there I really
really took me in a really was it a straight line towards Ubuntu and
Canonical what really attracted me to it all was the vision if you will the
mission statement of Ubuntu which was which has always been Linux for human
beings right making it making technology available and making it easy for
people to do their own thing and not having the best of technology abstracted
from people just because they live somewhere else or they or they work on
different things and so that's what's really driven me here that's what took
me to product management with Canonical to hopefully sort of drive that road
map and drive things in that kind of direction and it's also what brought me
to the community side because as as Canonical grows it means there's a lot
there's a lot a lot of effort goes into the commercial side of things into
getting things going and trying to make Ubuntu entirely and fully self
sustaining it's public knowledge that Canonical is is is turning over it's
fully it's self-sustainable even if it can it can sustain the development of
Ubuntu in and of itself on its own and while that happens we don't want to
lose focus on the community side of things and the open source nature of
everything and that's that's really what I wanted to get into and we really
wanted to focus on and yeah does that answer your question with it I just
ramble a little bit too much I can answer for Chris and that definitely does
because I wanted to pick it well they actually pick up on one of the things you
mentioned is really that mission you to bring the free software I mean how much
is that how does that manifest itself in terms of apart from building on
Ubuntu and supporting the community there out of any other initiatives
that that Canonical has in that area so we itch we try to have it manifest in
this is in whatever we can have it manifest in a lot of the big projects and
products and things that can work on is done it's done in an open source way
it's contributable it's doing all of these things and a lot of what we try to
do with the likes of the Ubuntu desktop for example is is make it as available
as possible while while still being free and open but have but in order to
sustain these kind of things that's when we look at enterprise solutions and
commercial opportunities with big players so if you look at the clouds I like to
say I'm not sure if anyone else says this but I like to say the clouds these
days aren't really made of water they're made of Ubuntu the big public
clouds thank you thank you for the laugh I needed them and and that's a
common choice of distribution on those exactly and that's where and so that's
where a lot of a lot of time and sort of research not of innovation goes in
in psychologist towards those kinds of towards those kinds of deals and so
that money can be put straight back into the development and the and the
innovation within the technology that we that is things like the desktop
which people can use all over the world and we've seen these things do specific
projects we are moving with which we try to move with the times try to move with
things and so there are things in two sections there's things on the sort of
cloud side of things where you've got virtualization technologies like LXD or
multi-pass where Oracle puts a lot of resources and same with things like
microkates an open stack and the big cloud native buzzwords if you will and
then there's innovation on the devices the more IoT side of things where you have
the likes of microkates micro Kubernetes and you have things like
snaps and and the snap store and and that kind those kinds of technologies that
while we work with big players we work with some of the biggest players that are out there
we try and make it so that the money and the funding and the things that come from
those big things definitely trickle back down into the not even trickle but
force straight back down into the development of these technologies that we try and move toward
that mission sounds very interesting sorry you want to go next no it's interesting changing
tack a little bit given the fact that Ubuntu is a spin of probably a part of beside
Redhead the most widely used distribution in enterprises called Debian maybe you can
share a little bit of of light on where actually Ubuntu came from and why Mark Shutterworth
chose Debian as the upstream distro yeah so I imagine the two of you know more than
have more experience and know more about where Ubuntu came from in the beginning but I can
expect to a little bit and the relationship with Debian there so obviously Ubuntu is downstream
to Debian it's based it's a Debian based distribution and it came and what it came about
where it came from was well again I can't speak for Mark himself but where I see it came from is
Debian in those days as I understand I don't I wasn't involved in those days but Debian stands in
those days was very good and it was this distribution it was changing things it was it was doing all
the things that Ubuntu wanted to do but it wasn't doing it it might well it probably it wasn't doing
it in such a way where it was long term and and regularly structurally viable and so the one of
the things that Ubuntu wanted to do was was to turn that into a regular into a regular thing to
standardize it and make it accessible to humans to not humans I mean humans can go with Debian right
but to make it accessible to your your average user if you will right if the next in the beginning
was going to take off it needed to be accessible in that way and the likes of fingers as it existed
then it wasn't it wasn't approachable for necessarily approachable for the new person
and so on so in the beginning when Ubuntu started coming around and it was it was a smaller group
of people contributing all over the world and they'd send out the CDs and I'm sure people
they still have the CDs right they send them and they'd say right work on it and contribute
and develop on it and and it it became that much more approachable it came that much more
accessible and having Debian that was likely wasn't able to do that in the same way because of
how it had started and how it was the foundations for for lots of different things and I was trying
to do all of these different things in a very so technical way and so Ubuntu took that in a more
accessible direction and really focused in on making it simple and making it approachable
to the average user and that's something that I think we still aim a lot for today we still focus
on while I like to think and I like to say that it's the most popular distribution for your
average developer which I think is true it's also in my experience the most approachable
distribution for for new people for people getting started when I was getting started not terribly
long ago with Enics and getting things up and running it was it was a bitch bashbosh up and running
get it on my laptop but I can and away I can go I don't need to think of it as this this thing
that you have to get to work it was just something that worked right and and that's where that's
I think one of the ways in the beginning that Ubuntu became successful and was able to and
was able to to succeed it's an interesting perspective indeed yes because
fully stutter I'm an arch package maintainer among a very many other things when I started with
arch arch wasn't the most approachable distribution for me most manjaro has has of course
changed this a little bit but I reckon especially with the with the likes of the Ubuntu
spends and I'm particularly talking about mint here mint has I think alongside Ubuntu itself
helped to lower the bar with regards to I have a USB stick or just put it into my machine it
guides me through the install and within a couple of minutes maybe 15 maybe 20 I have a
working system has come a long way such a long way such a long way and it's and it's and it's
that exact sort of ability that sort of procedure where you could just get it on a USB and plug
it into your laptop and where you go that the debut of the labels and then folks like mint and
and Ubuntu can recapitalize on and make it so they're users so that their distributions are
approachable to to non Linux or non technical people right what what I would love to be able to do
I'm I'm confident I could do with a lot of relatives right now it's just hand them a USB stick
and say hey why didn't you try this and they go what is it and I can say well just click these
two things and then follow the instructions in a way you get nothing dodgy to see here nothing dodgy
to see here it's just an operating system I promise yeah yeah you mentioned I mean obviously
the difficult application well not to go but you mentioned a few applications of where
you've been used and canonical puts his efforts and the desktop the the server side cloud
you didn't mention the WSL part of that oh my goodness how big does that feature in your
in your work or in canonicals you know proud level of importance what are you able to go
well thank you for catching that one I did miss that out and if if Sahini if you're listening
I apologize for missing that out Sahini is our product manager for WSL and she's very passionate
about working with Microsoft to make WSL a good experience and yes it is definitely a priority
of ours to make sure that that Windows users specifically obviously it WSL is has people
Windows users have a good experience using a booth do on on Windows for the I'm sure no one
in the audience doesn't know but I'll say anyway Windows WSL is the Windows subsystem for Linux
and it's it's a piece of software that you can run on Windows which which just lets you use
a window instead and that for me is great because I it means when I go to places that have Windows
machines or if I if I if I ever get myself a Windows machine I could change my mind immediately
and just use that instead I mean it's still the default user land right I mean for just
sure you went to both the first user land that run on WSL 1.0 we are not at WSL 2.0 as a
real kernel running on top of the micro kernel which is the foundation for something called
Windows formally known as Windows NT as a new technology but we're talking about what 25 years
back but it's a totally small game watch out for the upcoming episode series 27 episode 124
where Windows came from and why it's obsolete but that's that's it's a teaser okay joke aside
you know why Windows is now open so I think it's all right very good that's the one
Martin was open to us before it's demise that's a different story anyway no jokes aside I was kind
of I wouldn't say surprised but it was kind of certainly a different tack on on the whole thing
when Microsoft actually chose Ubuntu as the first user land for something called WSL need to say
other user lands are now available I think it's just a matter of selecting the right one from
the Windows door and then you have a an open suzer then you have a native devian of course
center S and fedora also available it all started actually with Ubuntu any particular inside on
this by Microsoft chose actually Ubuntu or why would you chose Microsoft to be part of this WSL
effort good good question in the beginning so I don't I don't know trying to smile in the beginning
I think it was just that they were they were using Ubuntu already so they created they made WSL
and they wanted it going and and for whatever reason I'm not privy to their decisions as they
were using Ubuntu and then we got involved they started talking to us we had a engineer
nit by the names of by the name of Hayden Barnes and an engineer by the name of Patrick who were
WSL engineers before joining canonical and then they joined canonical and they they focused on
that relationship and developing at the Ubuntu experience on the on WSL and so we were able to
to work with them and to contribute and to and to make Ubuntu a strong and a good experience I
think I think that's the the reason as well I imagine as the reason that Ubuntu is is that
the default the moment is because we were we were there with them we were we were helping them
make make sure things worked and make things happen and so just just by comparison to other
distributions who maybe weren't able to or didn't get involved in those kinds of relationships we
were able to sort of to sort of sneak in there but as you say you can you can click and choose
other distributions while you're on your Windows computer so no one feels like they're they're locked
in even though they're already on Windows so maybe they are but you know on a on a similar subject
over the years I have been barriers let's put it this way speculations assumptions that's the
other thing and in poll might winters if you're listening you know who I'm talking about
that Microsoft is actually putting some money on the table for for a company called canonical
not just because I have a nice logo and they were the first user land that was available in
WSL but rather for their innovation and tax deck that they would bring to the table
need to say I won't ask about any kind of detail inside but what's the general just on this
I mean is is canonical for sale in that is the Microsoft or other other companies
well I can say that we have we have some very nice logos and I categorically say that it's not
up sale no okay not the Microsoft or to or do anyone so as far as I know so even if Martin and
myself the two of us in between us we'll put some money on the table that won't be that won't
happen okay for a while well hang on you didn't mention YouTube putting money on the table that's
a whole different ball game how much they're talking here maybe three I'll have to take it
okay no jokes aside Martin go ahead I think you had a question well it's not on a more
sort of open source there's there have been some some complaints in the past about you know
you've been to these community efforts and then all that stuff and I guess you know be yourself
being a community outreach person how have you experienced that and what has changed I guess
in to make that a you know a less of eight criticism on of canonical it's put it that way
it's an interesting it's an interesting story it's a very it's it's a very valid
criticism right so it was it was it was it wasn't it wasn't a good um we didn't have a community
team for a while we didn't have these things so let me let me let me roll it back a few years
before I joined the company um there was a state of things where there wasn't a dedicated
community team there was an advocacy team which was focused on snap on snappy on snaps specifically
and there were um various smaller well various subsections of the community around various sort
of projects and products at canonical so uh you had the snap advocacy team which were probably
the loudest and the most active that's where you saw the likes of Alan and that's where you saw
and the likes of Martin put in their efforts and then there were other smaller sub subsection
communities around the products and projects like like juju which is a cloud thing or things like
magnet cage is just a Kubernetes thing or things around snap craft at snap d in all of these
different sort of projects and products and what um we were doing in that way as we were trying
to to build community up around these things instead of um instead of focusing in so
the snap community started to come alive um I imagine you've heard or have been on and if you
haven't you should absolutely go to the forum for snap craft that's forums.snapcraft.air
where please sorry before we go any further I reckon there are two listeners out of our four
who do not know what snaps are maybe you should explain what snaps are and why they're important for
you when to you say 50% of your users don't know um so very very simply snaps are
and sort of application containers that you can use to package your software in a way that is
um one it's it's available to install across distributions to its its secure and it uses sort
of container technology to make sure things are secure but three probably in my opinion the most
the biggest pull for snaps is that it makes them highly available to people it makes them simple
so that you can just go um you cannot worry about the packaging or the format or whatever you can
think of what application do I want oh okay I just get it over there you know and and that's not to
say there's also for those 50% of users there's there's uh there's some controversy around snaps
there's been controversy around snaps over the years and uh it's important to note that snaps aren't
the only way of doing things they're not the best way of doing everything they're a very good way
to do some things but it depends on the use case and the application and for the right use case
of snaps are um are really good really easy and really approachable to people now which is where
a lot of the community effort was going a lot of the outreach was going and um over the past two
years while I've been at Oracle I was able to see some really really great work being done by
people we mentioned earlier around snaps and doing that advocacy and building that community
and building out and it was and it was really interesting and good to see and I joined
and that's the kind of stuff that I wanted me doing so I did some as a product manager I did some
sort of community adjacent type things I did the developer survey for 20 or four release I did
some talks and some presentations various conferences in this model of focusing on different
projects and products of building communities around them but um for a while the overall sort of
state of the Ubuntu community in general um I think it's fair to say it was declining and there was
a lot of very valid criticism around uh the fact that it at least looked like um which is really all
about matters to a community like this right it looked like the community was declining and
clinical wasn't giving it as much attention as perhaps it could or perhaps it should and so
I'm not sure where the where you guys get your information but and so a number of months ago
on the old Ubuntu discourse and that's at discourse.ubuntu.com and there was a long thread which is
where I saw the inception of this whole thing of a discussion around um the importance and the
investment in the Ubuntu community and um our benevolent dictator arc was in there and discussing
and talking about these things and that's where this sort of we're calling it a reboot of the
Ubuntu community came from because we recognize um that the community teams the community itself
and canonical weren't giving it enough attention as it deserved as it really deserved and so what
happened was we reinstated or we rebooted I'm not exactly sure of the details the community council
which is a group of Ubuntu members who who are really there to um to sort of moderate
Ubuntu member discussions and to and the talk things through and to be a guiding a guiding hand
and one of the the biggest part of this for canonical was just sort of reboot of the community
which is what I am now a part of and you can read about that on the Ubuntu blog where we if you
just googled up into community reboot I'm sure it will come up or you can go over to the discourse
and look around there. Chris are you gonna say something? Link's moving the show notes yes.
Oh wonderful. Well then look at the show next um yeah so which is which was the the big thing
is that canonical so that's the team that I'm on now with uh my friend and colleague Monica
and our uh manager Ken who is hopefully who is an interim manager because she is
the engineering manager for the best of team as well so but me and Monica are here now to
to sort of shepherd uh canonical back towards the public community not that it was ever far away
but back towards it the way I like to look at it and I always like to look at it is canonical isn't
a separate entity and it's not a overarching entity uh canonical is and should be a contributor
to the Ubuntu community and that's what we're sort of here to facilitate now so we uh we liaise with
developers and other communities and community members and we liaise with canonical and we sort of
react as that conduit between the two and I could talk about all the sort of initiatives that we're
doing but um yeah that's the sort of state of things in the moment so the criticism um of however
long ago it was now a year less than a year ago was very valid and and it's and it's important
we recognise that and and realise that we would we were doing something wrong um but yes this is
what we're doing now to hopefully to rectify that interesting perspective uh go back to the snap
thing um about half a year ago maybe a year ago there was some voices there was some voices in the
community let's put it this way um who weren't exactly pleased with the way snaps were going for
example the decision by canonical to to package chromium or crow for that matter just as a snap
instead of a poor instead of a true devian package raise some concerns um can you elaborate
perhaps a little bit on this yeah i can yeah go ahead i can i can elaborate a little bit i'm sure
there's um i've seen this i've seen this uh talked about in a number of places online and
my ex colleague and friend album has done some wonderful explanations of this i'm sure
we can find some links to put in the notes because i will not entirely
preview to it as i wasn't yeah i wasn't sort of a part of that judge but what it effectively
as i understand it what it came down to was um it ended up the desktop team uh who
looked who maintained that snap and we're looking after it we're having to maintain the
dev package and the and the snap and uh what it came down to was the fact that the
the snap itself was a lot easier to maintain a lot less work it had a lot of um and a lot more
users than the dev package and so we made they made we made the decision to to just support the snap
now that decision was was made publicly and it was announced long before the controversy
i think the problem was that we didn't announce that far and wide enough and then some time later
um the other distributions when they uh rolled forward they realized this and it looked as if we
were sort of sneaking the snap into into into their releases which wasn't the intention of course
that was no intention and we thought we announced it although we definitely could have done a better
job uh and so that and so that was where the controversy kicked up and people thought we were
trying to push snaps down people's throats but when the reality is we want to uh we want to use
snaps when snaps make most the most sense and in that case for us resources wise and
availability wise and and uh keeping up to date wise uh was the main thing and then of course since
said controversy um there's been a couple of i know i i know uh Alan and a couple of other people
have done sort of explainers like this in interviews and there's a blog post out there that
you can read through to to see the full reasoning uh but all of that is it is quite fading from my
memory but i hope that i haven't said anything too wrong now uh as far as i can recall it
poppy said something on on the wonder podcast around that time and he said that innovation basically
doesn't make it feasible for us to promote their packages so the rate of innovation was outpacing
the release cycle cadence and that's the reason basically uh why i think canonical at least
according to that statement by mr. Pope decided to package this is snap rather than full
blonde devian package and but i think the notion or the maybe the misconception in the community was
that actually one of the biggest Linux distros was becoming just a container for for snaps
well so i'll just i just want to tweak that a little bit there because uh i'm almost certain
that Alan wouldn't have said that uh that's the case for all devs and for all things that because
it makes a lot of sense and we want to have a lot of devs inside of but just for the rate of
innovation of the chrome package specifically yes exactly yeah um exactly and so yes so exactly so
there's a lot of concern around about becoming this snap only thing which uh which just isn't true
you can look and see the uh packages in them we we still like it we still push we still have a lot of
dead um packet packages and devian developers as part of a community who who don't think that's true
either in them and yeah it just made sense for that particular snap and we did a bad job of
communicating that especially to other distributions uh but but we're learning and uh i'll personally
make sure something like that doesn't happen again i mean it's yeah it's interesting because
our reckoning your bookter's history is sprinkled with attempts and learning curves and
conclusions let's put it this way upstart probably would be another example for for for the for the
youngsters in the listenership upstart was a system v in it replacement in originally designed
and implemented by by canonical before system d took over with some release i think it was
1617 right i can't even remember if it wasn't LTS or not but maybe it was it was 1604
details maybe in show notes if i can dig this up where canonical simply buried upstart in favor of
system d was emerging as the de facto standard and fair play to canonical because that show is
that actually companies can learn i from a take up perspective i thought upstart quite interesting
let's put it this way it was certainly more focused than system d especially system d nowadays is
because system v is probably we all know it is is is it is encompassing more and more
functionality of originally kind of dispersed functionality with regards to programs and
general ecosystems but canonical picked up the trend and simply dropped you upstart and
simply replace it with the then emerging industry standard called system d
so i don't actually i don't actually know to rinse i know about as much as you just described
there with the upstart thing but but it's a good example right of of companies like canonical
and canonical specifically learning from these different things and there's been a lot of
controversial a lot of controversy around some of the decisions have been to it and canonical
has made for Ubuntu over the years and i think it's i think it's fair to say that when those decisions
are made they're not made lightly and they're made with with the in mind of being becoming and
could continue to be accessible approachable to new users and to be able to be
sustainable because canonical as companies go isn't the biggest company isn't even close to it
a large company really and it needs to remain sustainable and needs to remain lean in this way
to able to keep these things going so picking up technology that we don't think or don't believe
is going to continue to provide that kind of value to users just isn't this isn't the way to do
things and that can be applied to lots of different things and an example i like to think of for
example is is mayor a lot of people think mayor as a as a technology which is a graphical
display server that canonical was was backing disappeared a few years ago but it has this bit
still kicking it's still there there's still developers at canonical working on it and the
difference between dropping something and continuing to going is we still see and we still get
very positive feedback and people coming to us are saying that we like it that they like it that
things are going well and they say this is a very valuable thing and maybe it's not the thing
right now but it's worth continuing so that project is still still gets resources it still gets
people working on it and then if something gets dropped maybe like upstart or something else
it's because it's not because of loud and angry people online right that's a very
usually that's a very small audience it's because the value that we see there for these users
for the approachability that bring through just isn't there anymore and we're not afraid to
to cut things like that if it does if we can't see it contributing to the ecosystem and the
approachability could bring to the long term then it's a very real possibility that we that we
lick our wounds and move on if something's winning why not move to that you know what I mean
okay yeah no it's an interesting point here that you mentioned it because obviously everybody
associates you've been to with this canonical right but there are more that our projects that you
um well contribute support you mentioned mere um what are the other big ones that that are of
interest to clinical and more specifically why you can kind of share a little bit of lies on that
that'd be great sure well um yeah well there's so there's there's numerous projects kicking around
and things that uh there's resource behind the uh i've got to list somewhere if i can put it up
but um there's an edge in me which is sort of at the background and the way it works is it sort of
spans from IoT to edge to the cloud and that when you say um most people who know about
have been to know about Oracle i think that's true in certain circles there's definitely uh it's
definitely a great much greater number of people who know about Ubuntu don't feel about canonical
which is which is sort of a um sort can be a can we struggle at times and sort of explain this kind
of thing because you don't want to use uh parallels of other operating systems but it's um but it
makes things difficult so the way things that exist there are there are projects that sort of
contribute to Ubuntu there are things like Ubuntu desktop and server and adira snaps and things
like landscape which are projects that um uh that go back a long time and they they contribute
to the overall sort of ecosystem of Ubuntu and then there are projects that are uh that are still
contributing to the Ubuntu ecosystem but are almost foremost solely uh backed by canonical things
like um things like mass or or uh or the audio which juju and exactly mass and juju and things
like charms and charm open stacks and charm cubanetes and so on and these uh uh these are projects
that get uh that get our attention because that uh they're sort of ahead of the game in those
industries and because we see a lot of value in in making things in the future more approachable
and more accessible in the same kind of Ubuntu sort of way so as I say as projects like mere this
project like multi-pass or unbox or uh the Ubuntu server itself, Ubuntu desktop itself has
worked that we're doing uh with fingers like NXT which is uh the Linux contain Linux containers and
and just and things like that which contribute to the idea of value that we can bring to Ubuntu
users down the road in or down the road all right now in in what they're doing to make things make
this time technology more accessible and then you've got sort of longer term projects or longer
term products like uh ESM or Ubuntu Advantage which focuses more on making sure that even people
coming in late or even people are using uh legacy or outdated technology can continue to consume
and continue to use these things in the sort of approachable way that we want them to.
Okay yeah I mean I did the reason for asking the question was because obviously you are a
canonicalist commercial company supporting them as opposed to uh and people obviously draw
parallels with the red hat and all this kind of uh I don't know if you've faced um uh whether it's
uh operating system or a database like um whatever first vessel red is right there's always
well not there there are um there are there are commercial companies um trying to make a
business model out of this and I was trying to kind of get an idea about you know what a
canonicalist company um how is it trying to you you mentioned uh the mission and and how that fits
in with with uh making it accessible to um and putting that money back into uh you know various
projects uh makes sense but uh in the end of the day it is obviously a commercial company so
how does that kind of uh what is the comparative business vision for for canonicalist company to
yeah is that purely as you mentioned to facilitate the Ubuntu and its usage and put money back
into the community or is there a you know a great big plan to you you mentioned it wasn't for sale but
yeah well ultimately the ultimate goal of your benevolent leader i mean sorry uh just small
interlude here in case canonical still needs money after the after the initial sale of this
certificate authority um of a certain market shuttle worth well that's assuming that you do
don't put another money together together right obviously right okay um well
use this from my listeners as well wow that's always sounds wow make that a fiber yes
okay here we go here we go um so it's uh it's it's interesting i won't i wouldn't i wouldn't
so i wouldn't speak for Mark uh for Mark's own ambitions and i i'm going to be a little bit careful
on i'm gonna stay away from numbers and specifics here because i'm not sure
what i'm allowed to say but i can i can say a lot of things the idea is uh for these for for
open source companies in general not not just for at canonical the idea is you want to you want to
give your technology to developers and to users and to contributors in such a way that it's mutually
beneficial i.e. and you want to be able to incentivize and reward them for contributing to your
technology and really sort of spotlight and highlight what they're doing right the uh the core
really of any sort of open source project of anything that's done in this way is the developers
it's the people who are actually work on it's people who spend their most valuable thing which is
their time on helping you on contributing to your technology and what we really what you really
need to do is that open source company is focus on that and reward that and make sure that that can
that's sustainable and that people who are doing that are are loving it and that there's
something that they want to do and want to keep doing so while canonical is a commercial company
and and it's and it's there to make money and it's it's it's the publisher we're going to in
this way all of the money that comes from uh what canonical gets the vast majority of it goes as far
as i know all of it really goes back into growth it goes back into building up the projects the
things that we can work on the things that we want to work on the things that will make as i say
this sort of vision of approachability and accessibility Linux for everybody come true
and so there's money as i say there's money in the cloud side of things in the with the public
clouds where we sell and we do deals with the biggest players the people who can very much
afford what's going on there's there's money in what we do with dail and the nerve when HP
and sort of preinstalled workstations and there's money on the devices site with folks like like
Bosch or with the big players and devices who who we work with to build these relationships
and these other ecosystems of devices and IoT things and really sort of move in that direction so
there's a sort of read three pillars and the the end goal of these things is to keep
innovating is to keep staying at the staying at the front of the pack staying with the front of
the pack and making sure that the technology that people are creating that the innovators of the
world are doing is done on Ubuntu so that anyone can access it right that's where the investment
goes back into if if sales on something does really really well we'll use it to make sure that we're
up there we're right in front with everybody else so there's a good example of this is in AI
is in AIML that's a big buzzwordy thing that lots of people talk about but there's a initiative
in canonical whereby we're investing and we're making sure that we're there with things like
like cube flip which is a which is a Google project then we see a lot of a lot of value in
and so we've got people working on that making sure that that in itself is accessible and
attainable and approachable for people because that's that's at the front of things we've done we
have support for things like TensorFlow and OpenCV and these kinds of things like that and that was
before and now we're trying to stay at the front so the big customers the big deals and so on
that clinical buzz a lot of it goes straight a lot of it and as far as I know all of it goes back into
making sure that we can stay ahead making sure that we can stay there and enable these new technologies
to to anyone who's using Ubuntu and that's really sort of the power of things like Ubuntu so
one of the things that I've been the big part of is our relationship and our movement towards
things like the Raspberry Pi and something that's that I noticed that people really the people
got in touch with me just to say was it was amazing how they could stick Ubuntu on their Raspberry Pi
this thing that they just got off the internet on this credit card size computer that they got for
what 40 pounds if that they could stick it in there and then all of a sudden they had access to
all things open source because a lot of the investment that we do goes straight into making sure
those kinds of technologies are sort of the words that I like to use as a sort of like first class
citizen on Ubuntu does that make sense to that answer your question I think it did yes leaving
or or actually if people want to check out Ubuntu they do not have to go to a Raspberry Pi
actually they can go into the center and log on to their Linux 1 system leaving the hipster subjects
like deep learning machine learning and Raspberry Pi is on the side for a split second do you know
what Linux 1 is yeah I don't I don't know if you look onto your main frame tomorrow morning first
thing if you go onto your ordinary L power and depending on how it's configured you have the choice
of a real compatible user land or something called Ubuntu so these would be the two primary
distros as in user lands that IBM supports and that we should have a little bit more of
of of of additional light onto what Linux 1 really is the whole thing started about 50 years ago
when IBM decided that computers were the way forward in terms of mainframes
were they right little known fact they actually invented the first virtual machine
hop-upizer back in 72 it's called what is it named VM as a virtual machine
things have have come a long way since then if you buy a brand new mainframe these days whether
it's entry level whether it's mid level doesn't matter the whole thing comes virtualized already
in terms of hardware support for virtualization out of the box you don't have to install any
additional software it can run multiple operating systems on its core right away and if law
if current laws anything to go by actually the numbers with regards to people that are still
relying on something called ZOES I think if this is still called ZOES I might be wrong but check
out the current IBM marketing literature literature for the details is actually declining and
their their voices inside IBM especially after the direct acquisition saying that Linux
is these strategic way forward for old for old and big iron if you take a look at the annual
reports of a company called IBM you see that a significant chunk of the revenues actually
coming from the department that still does mainframes all is slightly technically more advanced
than 50 is back it is needless to say by going forward IBM is making a bit a big stride
of actually consolidating quite a few distributed systems like your ordinary kind of server clusters
onto a single mainframe instance and they're doing that in a fashion that actually from a cost
perspective depending on the particular use case it does actually make sense so instead of running
10 or 20 servers in your cluster running Oracle workloads you simply buy one box
I'm simplifying things a little bit that runs Linux and where where where Oracle where these
Oracle workloads are then consolidated on one machine you don't have to maintain 20 machines
you only have to maintain one machine and as I said two usalans are stand are available
per default and that's actually well and Ubuntu so yes not only is Ubuntu recognized
in the enterprise space actually the biggest enterprise company on the planet selling enterprise
hardware called IBM is acknowledging that with that fact that's wonderful that's good I mean
if they if they happen to be one of your four people listening that's great I'll let
our government say hello to me and I will say thank you absolutely I'll be sure listening
if made address is sponsor at linuxinlast.eu
cached donations I will come but we do take my attention as well
glorious mark you had a question to us both yeah I wanted to get a I mean you've been
you've been doing this for a couple of years I think on the Ubuntu side how do you see this
panning out right I mean there's obviously there are many did live them distributed out there
beautiful the most popular ones etc obviously next but how do you see the next how do you see
Ubuntu's future panning out I mean just looking at it from a you know sort of bystander point of
view there are many many Linux just yes I run Ubuntu myself as well fine but me too it's kind of
why there is a great diversity and how do you see that panning out so in over a
mix the five years so let me let me answer the question and then let me turn that question to
the two of you because I'd be interested to hear what you both have to say as well because that's
there's a question for someone much more than know than I am but so the way I see it going is
you're right there is we've got we have enough distributions right hopefully these distributions
continue to coexist and hopefully we can all get along and everything will be happy days where I
see the next sort of big thing where the next things will be happening isn't necessarily with the
hipsterie stuff that we talked about before with the likes of AI and deep learning and all of these
things that's that'll be there I'm sure but that I don't think that's where the focus of these
things are going to be I think the focus of things like Ubuntu and the distributions the focus
is going to switch from this operating system layer to something higher right we've seen
the the growth and the popularity of things like Kubernetes which is this sort of manager layer
but what's coming next in my view and that what I think that people will agree with is
applications and things that you can do things that you can interact with things that you can
work with and then how all of those things work together so while we don't need any more distributions
like you're saying we we do need more applications we do need more cross compatibility we do all
these things and because of the history of Linux because of the history of these different
distributions and how these things work and how they don't necessarily fit together we as an
ecosystem are sort of a little bit behind right you look at things like Apple people like Apple who
have this one thing they have this one thing and so if you build it for this thing or work on all
of their things which puts us which puts us behind a little bit right but but the future of where
these kinds of investments could and should be going is two things that complement those applications
the things like WSL things like management platforms things like an IoT management platform like
the snap store things like a desktop application management thing like snap stores and things like
cloud management platforms like like like a juju or a or or an equivalent right where you have
these places where apps which is the thing that is going to gross whether it's where people are going
to start looking more where these things need to live and that's where we as a Linux community
need to sort of come together and to make sure these things happen because I gave a talk
about a month ago now at the Linux app summit LAS where I talked about applications on ARM
and how the ARM ecosystem with the with what's happening at the moment with Nvidia and Apple Silicon
how does this this weird unique opportunity in Linux to sort of to really capitalize on what's
going on because if Nvidia is getting involved there's going to be a lot of money involved
in putting a lot of effort into making the place to be in the place to work and we've seen with
the likes of Apple's M1 computer how desktop hardware is going to start moving that way and if
Apple are doing it you can be sure other people are going to do desktop class ARM hardware and
so there's this future place where these things can go but if you look online at the moment if you
just Google apps on ARM or applications on ARM architecture and so on you don't see any
Linux stuff you see a lot of mobile stuff and that's where it shows us that there's a gap
but but after the mobile stuff you see a lot of Apple stuff and you see a lot of Windows documentation
and so what I think this is an opportunity to do is to come together and figure out a way
well it's easy obviously it's easy to say but figure out a way to work together on this sort of
application ecosystem and be there first and get there with ARM applications that work on ARM
for this new class of hardware that's incoming and then become that front front become the place
where you go for oh okay if you've got some ARM hardware of course you'll just you'll just install
a Linux distribution it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter if it's something else you'll
install the Linux distribution and you'll use you'll use those ARM packages you'll use those ARM
applications because well because that's that's where all the applications are right and it's a
matter of um this matter of those applications is a matter of and that's a sort of a microcosm to
industries at the moment where the platforms are really starting to have to get ready for this
wave of applications and how you consume them and how you manage them and blah blah blah blah
so that's a sort of long-winded way of saying that yeah I think the future really is um lots of
things but applications are going to be super important for the likes of Linux distributions
sorry until I have to say this reads but until until such time is canonical results not to support
typical a certain not typical but a certain um v7 farm chip as an SOC because that exactly
happened to something called computer and app's utility light um I bought this gadget in
2016 and canonical decided to end support for this SOC including the user land with 18 I think
1804 and this particular SOC where you simply would put the you want to
image on the SD card and could boot it because after that you would have to resort to
compiling your own kernel maintaining the user land yourself probably patching even upstream
packages and that wasn't great to be honest with you yeah so it doesn't sound great right it doesn't
sound like um a good experience doesn't sound like the way things should be going but with think
about the ecosystem of those kinds of devices all these armed devices and and think about the
capacity and the capability of a copy like a local there's no way um at the moment there's no way
we'd be able to cover everything like that right so I get it but the civilizing of course was
actually this introduced me to something called alarm as an ash living sun arm which I've been
running on most of my iron quarrels which I'm not running and right ever since and that we need to
introduce me to arm big time and otherwise I probably I wouldn't probably be a package man there
farm really well there you go well that's good to hear but what I was what I was going to there is um
that and and I think that's a huge shame I wish I wish we could do all of these things we should
do all of those specific essences but that's why the focus now it needs to be on things
on arm specifically and enabling the most probably the most the best things not the most
the best but the most popular things are the things where people the places would go
they were as reprised but then you could say a similar thing for the for the up and coming
if you will the underdog of risk five that sort of new architecture that people that people
are talking about in the back rooms and making sure that been to is is there and and they're along
the way and so that like I was saying before so that we're running in front and making sure that
anyone using a boon to be able to do it on these platforms and use these things in the right way
because you're right it's a shame that things like that don't have as much attention as they
probably could but yeah tiny tiny hint if it's targeting desktop system for risk v make sure
make sure your Mandarin is in order because this is what China is getting into big time if the
current use is anything to go by isn't because they cannot get hold off of arm licenses so they
are doing their own risk v five thing in terms of laptops so if you buy a laptop I reckon within
a one or two years time frame in China chances are if it's not in service and Trump did a pretty
good job and then on the embargo side of things it's going to be risk five variety running
probably some sort of Linux indeed and if if any of your four listeners want to start talking and
start thinking about risk five you head on over to the video discourse and have a look at the
risk five conversations going on over there because it's super fun I just want to follow up on
on your previous statement around the applications piece what specific are you thinking of here
is this applications for home users for enterprises is there something specific you have in mind is
like an app store type scenario right or what is there anything specific that you have in mind
because obviously on image you have a lot of that there are you where you want to have your
whatever is Microsoft alternatives there is also kind of stuff right so is that what you're
thinking or where is the thinking now for me for me specifically it's all home use it's all
consumer users and all that kind of thing there's so there's a million six applications out there
right but there's only 10% less than that that people actually use and the the that a lot of people
use that have a strong and viable user base and then there's a subset of that again which is general
users and casual users so so a lot of the applications that go forward that need to happen will be
ports of other applications they need to support other architectures needs to support the platform
blah blah blah blah but if for me it's all about the individual developer the individual smaller
communities that are building their applications right now for the first time whether learning about
it or whatever and how can they make an impact how can they do things in the way they want to do it
and if you're a developer right now and you don't know anything about anything you just know that
you want to make this application that I don't know that turns on your front door camera and then
sends some information to a cloud and then does all of this stuff if you start looking around for
how to do that right now you don't find in what is in my opinion the best stuff you don't find
the way to do it with through Linux you don't do it through open source you don't find the way to
do it through with multiple architectures and so on and so forth and so for me my my desire if I
could have one thing for the applications thing space is for those developers or these small
communities who are making their applications for themselves or for their users to be able to see
that just to be able to see Linux as a viable place to want to develop right to be able to see
it as a place where oh if I apologize for Linux it'll get a lot of attention people will be
interested in it and it'll become a thing it can continue to grow and then continue to succeed and
that does exist at the moment that does happen of course it does not say it doesn't but I just
love to see more of that right for me it's sort of about the individual user now before I forget
let me turn the question around on the two of you and and ask you where you think what you think
the future is where do you think it will be at five ten years um that's a very interesting question
because I was just going to answer that with regards to a specific perspective if you take a look
at the big consumer market and I'm talking about pre-page applications running on maybe embedded
maybe tiny systems comparable to something called the NACAS and uh Intel's idea of next unit
of computing these gadgets would either run a proprietary version of a stripped on user land or
something called Android which at its very core is of course a Linux operating system never too
the thing is basically that if you're talking about numbers the battle has been decided already
the decision has been made you'll either look at Android for TVs set up box on the rest of it
or some proprietary stuff where our ordinary users would have a hard time of a opening up the device
and be installing their own applications that somebody recommended because especially in the
case of these proprietary systems they're pretty much locked down that's right yeah that's true so
Android is there in everybody's phones and the people set up boxes and then people's
TVs and whatever and I'm not I mean but Android's great the numbers are there right Android's
one of the top things I've done some and a little bit of Android development my time and so on and
it's um and it's good and great but it's also it's also where the big players play and they have
their things because you have the sort of Samsung flavor and you have the Huawei flavor and you
all the different flavors of Android but what I'm talking about uh for this in the context of
of the next and the components of sort of high-level operating systems is things where you can
where you can have that full experience so if I use Ubuntu for example because of course I will
you can do all of the the bigger development on your desktop on your workstation you can do it in
the cloud you can do it on Ubuntu server whatever and then there's this thing called Ubuntu call
where which is a much smaller minimal version of Ubuntu where you can deploy it on your devices
and and those are the kind of things those kind of things to get a bit bigger that it get a bit smarter
that you're doing a little bit more that maybe you don't want to use Android for and with with this
world of IoT that people keep saying is coming and you're going to want something a little bit more
something a little bit more like a proper Linux distribution you know what I mean now it's
interesting because I have a couple of webcams and all of these webcams actually run some sort of
virtual Linux if you're lucky you can open them up if you're not lucky it's down to a hack
need to say you can you can modify them let's put it this way but they wouldn't use any any known
packaging packaging system like packet manager if you're lucky you get old package or a package
but that's about it forget about that forget about forget about rpm or some flotters there are nowhere
near these standards and I reckon the smarter you go like webcams like other embedded devices like
internet radios they typically run some sort of Linux but it's pre-packaged and it's closed and
it's closed up so anything you want to do with it or set up boxes next example anything you
want to do with this either you're the hack attack but I reckon about a fraction of a tenth of a
percent of people buying that kid actually are or you can look for the stuff that comes pre-packaged
the trick there though of course is if you had a webcam that was approachable if you had a
webcam that was accessible to anybody else then you're in a bit of a pickle right but I agree with
you in that in that if it would be much better if the software running in your webcam the fifth
they're rubbing your thing wasn't some proprietary snowflake that they've called together and
it's completely unapproachable and completely unaccessible but of course that needs to be some kind of
security it was the word right to those kinds of things and while they've doing the absolutely
wrong way of doing the security of this other thing which is closing everything and making it
this snowflake that anything could go wrong with and not having that kind of package management
and so on you can see why they can justify well why they think they can justify it with
security and so on what about you man what do you what do you think yeah now it's I mean
the fact is that not many people want to go around hacking their devices and time or the
inclination because they just work but at the same token if there were more approachable or already
if there was other people doing it then it would just be a case of make the whole process easier
and more popular right and it's it's a very given that it can improve the devices for
its own purpose like for example installing a different operating system on a laptop right
it's quite a proven you know a standard practice and doesn't have any limitation so
yeah so so Chris is absolutely right you know all the device I have as well they're all
prepared he and you know they do want to job they need to do and if there is nothing really
blocking it I'm not going to mess with them that's it so Ruta comes to mind right Martin
it comes with with a version of Debian right but it's it's all locked down and so on but it
doesn't matter it does what it needs to do and the interface is usable and so on so
yeah in terms of future of of of Ubuntu personally I'm probably quite a short term Ubuntu user
as in maybe five or so years before that who is all sorts of other flavors of Linux like Samara
is in wet hands and sent away the I think one of the observations I have about Ubuntu is its
package readability right and the way that's maintained and using the accessible in comparison to
some of the others so yeah I think Ubuntu as a desktop is a good alternative and this you know
the the biggest downside is is it or the the rise of Apple in terms of the enterprise market and
for for home use the lack of you know applications on Ubuntu are for home use for example one you
know not everybody will want to use open office or if you want to play one of the games they
playing they're going to have their realtor windows right it's so those are all kind of barriers
to to the desktop adoption unfortunately but on the server side yeah it's it's it's great size
yourself as well easy and and many of of the software deployments that we see and in many customers
they're yeah Ubuntu is a very good alternative these days whereas it all used to be wet hands
you see more and more of it yeah but Martin but Martin wait for it full disclosure there's
something called 5.13 RC1 or RC2 that does contain support for something called
Apple Silicon stretch M1 as part of the kernel so just a matter of time on Ubuntu you can liberate
that platform right we can liberate that one why would you have one in the first
because it's because it works it's a it's fast the battery life is excellent and it works
wonders on on the weekend in the disco if you turn it if you turn it up with everything it makes it
given the fact that we're kind of short of two hours now no it's it's not that bad but I think in
the interest of time we should wrap this up Reese there's always something called the boxes
the regular listers of the show would probably know what I mean boxes of course and for pixel
two weeks so if you have anything worth mentioning like a movie you've seen recently a book
you've read recently maybe the account number the credit card number of a certain mark
shuttle worth knows the time to venture this oh my goodness this is the place I can talk about
that all right yes yes go just go ahead zero zero yeah actually I something happened today so
I'm a big I'm a big um uh tabletop RPG don't just a dragon actually and something got an
answer today called um from a company called critical role which I think everyone should go and
check out that's all that's all I'm going to say critical role everyone go and have a look
if you're interested if you're interested in that kind of thing Martin you're your pox I
I focus my pox I'm still on I just I should mount since that's it's a very yeah it's very entertaining
so um not finished the series yet what's that what series is that I should start just oh of course
I thought it was a hint I thought was the hints made tale or something my pox of the week is
something called hazy jane answer american camera camera camera camera members probably won't
know it because it's a real indian sorry in new england pale ale I stand to be corrected
it's done by a company called broodark that would be english of sort of Scottish apologies
yeah broodark for those for those people who don't know it at broodark is a company with the with
the tanks and London and the fancy tv ads and kind of commercial spots and commercials whatever
and if you're into new england IPAs I strongly recommend this of course links will be in the show
notes broodark if you are serious about open source sponsorship the email address a sponsor
at linuxinmars.eu okay Martin before we have to let our guests go and we still have to do some
feedback and by wonder of a of familiar i'm almost into to say some of the late feedback only made
it into onto the hbps website now so let's go through them you want to read out the the feedback
or should you do want me to do this hi whatever works it's i don't know if i'm in that case
let's start with the comment on hbps out 35 of season one exactly they'll they'll comment posted
by bob on the 10th of august right now one sec we had one by dragger still before that oh sorry
yes yes yes go ahead okay so comment by dragger still on 7th august episode number 35
regarding rms the number of signatures signatories of the open letter is not 506 figures as
mentioned in the episode it is a three thousand and four by contrast a letter supporting which is
the storm and hbs army support that will give the bio gained six thousand eight hundred signatures
if the fs fe thinks the matter of right or wrong simply depends on how many people make are made
uncomfortable it should withdraw its statement with unsubstantiated claims as there are more people
made uncomfortable by the lynch mob then by Richard stormen interesting observation and of course
yes probably rename the podcast to some old age pensioners talk about the nukes because yes
when we last look at bob on the count time but then we have machines doing this for us right so
okay okay now jokes aside if you take a close look and this is my interpretation of the matter
of course the audiences manage may really vary if you take a close look at the supporting
signatures on GitHub you may be under the impression that quite a few of the commits were let's
put it this way auto generated so again pure pure speculation now on my part some people may have
written some piece of software that simply with the right credentials of course did the right
commits let's put it this way and again pure speculation if you take a close look at the handles
they may be some indication of supporting this pure speculation let's put it this way the same
of course could be set for the for the original letter but if you again if you take a close look
at the commit handles you may be under the impression that this are more often than not real people
in contrast to some piece of software doing things again this is my interpretation of the matter
but given the fact that I've spoken to quite a few people who are under this him impression
maybe these numbers and it's ended I'm in to go by and it's also in yourself Martin
it's is that substantiated claim or if you make this up
no if you take a look at the handles they look artificial well but that's kind of yeah
yeah and Martin not proved that no feel free and as I said Martin what do you think about this
yeah no I mean I can't say I have investigated this into detail however you know these numbers
are fairly small compared to our original claims so should we be worried and I mean
there's clearly a divided opinion on this subject from from both sides and it's whether you believe
in free speech or whether you believe in you have certain responsibilities when you exercise
your free speech that's what it comes down to I think something like this will never be
completely concluded one way or the other correct and yeah that's my one subject then
whether people make up votes in one way or the other it's in a way it's irrelevant it's a it's a divided
subject right yes I'm speaking of eleven comments no of course not speaking of relevant comments
sorry Bob wrote on the on the 10th of august clarification in the interest of fairness and balance the
RMS open letter gained 3400 sorry 3400 signatures and stopped accepting more after just eight days
the RMS support letter has only garnered 6800 signatures while still accepting signatures
over four and a half months later you also forgot to mention that 61 organizations are that
a party to the RMS open letter yes correct indeed yes but then as I said we have old age playing
in favor of us yes yes absolutely and okay yes the GitHub stats are something to go but I don't
think that they're till the full story but because as already explained about a minute ago maybe two
these things can easily be automated at the end of the day okay final comment on this
drag still again wrote on the 11th of august 2021 clarification in the interest of fairness and
balance the RMS support letter started one day after the RMS open letter on the first of april
with the date when RMS open letter stopped accepting more signatures RMS support letter had 555,000
signatures sorry 551 signatures compared with 3500 five signatures on the RMS open letter
okay and the links are in the actual post yes indeed okay moving exactly moving swiftly on
let's move to the 36 yes can you read this out should you want me to do this okay
so episode 36 a comment by Kevin and Brian on the 14th of August and he is saying another good show
as anyone who listened to my shows knows I take the licensing very seriously my own view is that if
your objective is to expand the free software ecosystem use the GPL if your objective is to
promote proprietary software use one of the unrestrictive licenses like MIT or BSD
well spotted I'm tempted to add that's it's got a handy bit of advice yeah I mean that's exactly the
thing that we discussed in that episode this is saying also in previous episodes going back to the
much stressed example of terminus to be who changed the licensing model in mid-flight although
terminus to be of course is not close or software but the thing is that they moved away from
the federal GPL to a to the patchal license for the adoption reasons simply let's put it this way
the same goes for for for for this argument of proprietors of course using a more permissive license
you can essentially what do whatever you want with the with the software I mean just take a look at
and again I'm beating probably a dead horse here but just take a look at the ecosystem of free
and open source software license under permissive model that the hyperscalus took and turned into
managed business and they're making a lot of money with that on a brand new basis
sorry that's my to send on the argument okay sorry yeah no fair enough there's most people
probably familiar with that scenario but yes you completely right and of course the example that
comes to mind immediately is of course ready is you find this with all the hyperscalus inverse
brands and they would suggest elastic cash with the bookshop memories start with google and
something called as your cash awareness exactly on Azure so yes and yes and exactly indeed
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as i said there are not that many people listening so there's probably no point in sending out and the
case
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excellent there we go sorted
this is session this is episode something this is series whatever
episode i can't remember if this is the feedback and we are rolling
yes and of course the the immediate example that comes to mind is the classic search for
versus versus um any other redder's offering
that's sorry elastic cash yes so cut let's do this again
and rolling and rolling once again
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