Episode: 3844
Title: HPR3844: 2022-2023 New Years Show Episode 6
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3844/hpr3844.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-25 06:37:48

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3844 for Thursday the 27th of April 2023.
Today's show is entitled, 2022-2023 New Years Show Episode 6.
It is part of the series HP Our New Year Show.
It is hosted by HP Our Volunteers and is about 121 minutes long.
It carries an explicit flag.
The summary is 2022-2023 New Years Show where people come together and chat.
Can I do something personal real quick?
Depends on how personal.
Someone tried saying hello to me as if I'm somebody and I talked over them because I was too afraid to lose my own dream of thoughts.
So I just would like to say hello to you guys.
I said, the famous cookie is there, yeah?
Infamous? Maybe? I think the only thing I'm famous for is being infamous. I'm a screw up.
But thank you. Hello, Seb, how are you?
Yeah. Don't worry about me from...
It's not a year we were on this.
I remember you from your sub-sub-sub as your screen name.
Oh, yeah.
You're cutting it out of this.
Is he doing that as I shot him?
Yeah, here as well.
So the beer topic was going to say is which country has the best beer?
Belgium.
America right now.
With Americans even can make some Belgians. It's unbelievable.
America and Belgium because of husband and stuff, yeah?
Well, the U.S.
The U.S. is doing with beer, what Japan did with everything else.
They see how people do it.
They try it out that way without pre-judging it and saying it's wrong.
And they put their twist on it.
And they combine what they've learned.
And, you know, Japan did it with cars and electronics and wagyu beef, you know, whatever.
They watched Tom Selleck, Mr. Baseball for that speech.
But America has done the same with beer and has done really well with it.
I did have to laugh. I was a few years ago now.
And there was a contingent from the U.S.A. obviously because it's a huge conference.
And a few of them, it was their first time here.
No, it was their first time in Belgium.
And they were like, let's go have some drinks. So we did.
We're going to have some beers.
And of course, what they didn't realize was two problems.
One, the lowest percentage of alcohol you're going to get in a Belgium beer usually in a pub is about 9%.
Which is a lot higher than 4% to 6%.
You know, that we're used to getting, even in the UK, we could usually top out about five for an average.
But then also, of course.
Well, the Maritime I had of belts.
Americans don't have the fines.
We have 16 ounces. They're smaller. So you're right.
It's a bigger beer and it's got much alcohol in it.
So we had a very, very, very bunch of Americans.
The fact that, you know, Poké's right.
This is one of the greatest places to get different types and really well made and really flavorful beers.
Me, it's basically anything you want.
Most of your average Americans are still drinking piss water.
Good. Let them, it keeps the price down on the really, really good stuff for the rest of us.
Right. I mean, you've got all this great stuff here.
And if you walk into a bar in middle America and you're a white guy and you order anything other than a Budweiser,
you're probably going to start a fight.
You're supposed to start off.
It's not even Budweiser anymore.
By the way, it's pronounced Pusvasa.
The guys that I drink with drink, one guy drinks raspberry, natty lights, another guy drinks tea's,
another guy.
But you wouldn't believe with that flavor.
At least it's flavor.
The what?
The more flavor than your average Budweiser.
I don't know, mate.
I know.
The light is disgusting.
No matter what flavor you freaking put in it.
At the point, at least it's not a generic Bud light.
Yeah, but Bud light is better than the gagging that I did on that.
A natty light.
Yes, okay.
I don't know.
The raspberry natty light.
I never had a regular natty light.
The raspberry natty light made me gag.
I almost chucked it.
So they're all nasty.
It's interesting you were saying, Poki.
Poki was saying about the Japanese taking things and excelling.
I can attest that that was not the case with beer.
And it's not because their beer is bad.
Their beer is absolutely great.
They do some amazing craft beers.
But they do insist on putting about 20 centimeters of head on a glass,
which is just fundamentally wrong.
I don't want there to be more head than beer.
Not if you ask for a Tim Cook.
So are you familiar with Tim Cook?
I don't tend to ask Tim Cook.
Mr. Apple.
Tim Apple.
No.
The other Tim Cook.
You wouldn't ask.
Because he was a patriot, dammit.
No.
Tim Cook is the brewer of Sam Adams.
And his first commercials back in the...
It could have been late 80s, early 90s, mid 90s.
I don't know.
It was too young to drink at the time.
But I heard them all.
I wanted to drink.
I was going to...
I wanted to say...
I will say something after that.
So...
Hey, Karim.
Different than drinking age.
Well, yeah, yeah.
I was going to...
Well, yeah.
You got me.
Okay, okay.
That's...
That's not clear.
It's like...
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
I know.
Somebody said that the pint's smaller in America, didn't realize that as well, but okay.
I don't know why.
I was like...
It's like...
It's like...
It's like...
It's like...
In America, you're not supposed to drink until 21, but yet you can drive a cart 15, yeah.
And a...
I will...
Car can kill people, yeah.
You're the driver or other people on the road.
The drink...
And also...
The drinking age...
Hey.
In the U.S.
It's 21.
But I swear, the drinking age in Iowa was...
was 14. Yeah, the age in the UK is 18 but we all started drinking around about 14.
Exactly. Oh yeah, and the most important one.
Come on, it's about driving.
But from Bristol, we know what it's like in the West Country.
You're raised on cider, it's in your veins.
But no. You cross over from Submerset and you've got nothing to do but like,
where's the car? Mine are just as good as you do through the field.
Drink your cider.
I know. Yeah. Oh, mine aren't that bad. Exactly.
I think it's Iowa because it's all farm country out there.
And the whole thing is, is I swear, the state sport is drinking and driving.
Lots of states say, yeah, hey, Steph, you are causing a lot of feedback.
Anytime you're keyed up and anyone else is keyed up, there's huge amounts of echo.
The might be, yeah, I think it depends how it sets up.
Maybe one or two things either you're not using a headset or you're holding a stiff stick mic.
No, it not might be. It definitely is. Anytime you're keyed up and anybody else
keys up, it echoes back at everybody. It's definitely a thing.
It's definitely happening. I can't tell you what's causing it.
But it's, it's very clear. It's like software clear.
Not headphones next to your mic.
It's maybe something in software, but it could be.
If you're not wearing headphones, that'll do it too.
But you guys could speak here.
Isn't a good mic if that's it.
Attack your two quiet. No one could hear anything.
You just said, I couldn't.
Could you repeat that with a little more gain?
What the f*** are that whites to be on this?
Yeah, I do have one drawer speaking.
I don't want to hear what they're just saying.
It's usually nonsense.
What the heck?
Oh, that was a good burn.
George, I was interested, even if the guys who actually know you want.
Yeah, George, the British contingent, we're, uh, we're having a poke at you.
But, you know, you couldn't shout over us.
Why? Why? You love me.
That's what's cause he's easy.
Just because it's just because it's the name, just because his name is the love bug.
Doesn't mean he loves you.
Well, I know you hate me.
Hey, you can get hate with that.
Well, he didn't have nothing to love bug.
Yes, good evening, everyone.
Only say he's got work in.
Yeah, that he's a really, really old crappy version of mumbled for it to work.
I tried the snap version and the flat pack version of the most recent ones.
Certificate.
And no other than that would work.
I assume certificate issues.
No, no, certificate was fine.
I know he's the same certificate.
I've, I've, I use a safe certificate.
But it was more the fact that the push to talk, um, global shortcuts.
Whenever I click the ad button to say, this is the shortcut I want to use for push to talk,
it just didn't do anything.
So I had that problem as well.
I'm, I'm, I had that problem as well on the version from, um, the arch repository.
I had to get the Git version from arch.
So I think they've broken some.
Yeah, it looks like him.
Am I coming in?
That's fine.
I'm going to get a second.
You're just, it's probably user error.
You sound beautiful love bug.
Oh, bless you.
No, I mean, he's got an actual podcasting setup.
Yeah, you sound really like your levels are not blowing anybody out.
I could hear almost made out what you said.
Even when people were walking on you.
And when you're the only one talking, you have scourges like, geez,
what, what are you using?
That is a huge shut up guys.
Well, Mike, you got, uh, I'm using a Samsung, uh, Q2U,
which is, I think it's the equivalent of the audio technical 2100.
It is.
Um, it's a, it's a really, really nice microphone.
Incredibly cheap.
Probably works out.
Well, a current exchange rates about 67 cents, um,
but I think back in the day when we actually had a working currency,
it was, it would have been about 60, maybe 70 dollars.
I think this is one of the ones that, um, Leo,
that was formerly on Mintcast was recommending.
And it's actually on sale right now.
Samsung, you two, one, Q2U.
Thank you.
Damn son.
Oh,
Samsung.
Yes, it's a XLR and USB.
So I'm using it through XLR for a mixer,
but the USB, um,
option for it works really well as well.
Really? Does it sound just as good?
Minus the mixer or just almost as good?
Minus the mixer?
Well, I've never used it through USB personally,
but my wife does when she does her work from home.
Usually we use the same microphones for our show,
uh, both going through USB for the mixer for the podcast,
but when she's doing her own work,
she just takes the USB cable from the back of the microphone into her laptop
and it, it just works.
It sounds brilliant.
Oh, this is, um, for Americans,
this is $99.99 at Walmart.
$55.59 on Amazon.
Yeah, $55.99 on Amazon.
I don't know exactly who you guys,
but I bought the ETR 2100s about eight years ago.
I bought three of them for about $30.
So they have gone up in price like crazy.
But is that just for the microphone,
or is that, is that the podcasting set,
which is like your desk stand?
No, that's, well, that was the basic set.
Right, word of advice.
Forget the headphones.
The headphones are beyond awful.
By your own.
Yeah. Okay.
So, um, George,
Tak Geospart,
when you spoke up and said that, um,
the 33 bucks, you know,
saving 20 bucks, 22 bucks.
I would brag about that.
Um, if I were in your seat too,
but for my seat,
I just heard what your sounds like,
compared to the love bugs.
It's worth the extra 20 bucks.
Actually, I'm not using that mic.
Oh, nice safe.
Oh, good save.
Thank you.
I really didn't,
oh, I didn't want to walk away feeling like I was mean.
Thank you.
No, this is an ex-clovand
or some weird off-name brand drop mic.
So I'm sure I've got a medication called that.
Yeah, I know it's weird.
It looks like it does look a medicating.
It looks like it's a pretty mic,
but it's, yeah, it's generic.
Did the ex-clovand give you those weird dreams to love bug?
Every single night.
Then I think I recognize you even from outside of the podcasting.
I think I remember you.
Speaking of the processor,
you know that whole $99.99.
You know where that comes from?
Why we do the 99 cents thing.
It's a psychological thing, isn't it?
99 dollars is less than 100.
Yeah, but it's got what's the keys?
Sparfer if knows the key.
Yeah, why?
It's that's partially correct.
So that's only one side of it.
The actual reason is that when people make sales
and they would be,
they would skip putting it through the register
because it was just easier to not.
But of course, if they have to give change,
they have to open the register and record the sale.
So to force them to do that.
At the end of the day if the registers are.
Exactly.
Because they had to reach in to get the change.
And that's why they put it to 99 cents
because that was the closest they could get to the dollar
while also forcing their employees to open the register.
Interesting.
See, I prefer having round number things to pay.
You know, of course.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I mean, some of our local supermarkets
have started now selling things for, you know,
50 pounds from $14.99.
Well, you'd be surprised, actually.
The amount of places it still only take cash.
Oh, I live in Germany.
And yeah, I live in Germany.
And they just, they don't do card here.
It's just cash.
I good for you guys.
I just started doing, um,
carrying a little bit of cash again.
And it isn't even all that much.
And I almost never use it.
But it's empowering.
It really,
well, yeah, an emergency stash in your pocket
is always a good thing.
But yeah, I haven't actively carried cash
other than like having a 20 on me for a decade now.
So you want to get to the point where you have a difference.
It makes to you.
Yeah, get a cash clip.
Get a cash clip and bring that out
when you come to pay for something.
And you feel like a king,
even though that's only, you know, 200 euros in there.
That's a good way to draw attention
in a lot of the places that I've lived.
You know, that's a good way to get dumped out
in the parking lot.
I mean, yeah, but in, I mean, in Berlin,
that's not really a, not really a concern.
But that's 20 years in El Paso.
I'm very sorry.
I will bring cash with me for both them for,
but, but, but saying that even at both them,
more,
while two of the stands may even take cards,
this t-shirt stand for the event t-shirt
and maybe something else.
You see, you say that.
But when I was at a free-node live,
I went to try and buy,
I told you about the EMAX manual that I have.
I tried to buy that from the free software foundation stall
and they were trying desperately to use free software
to power the card readers and it just didn't work.
And I was just there like,
I can go and get cash out there like,
no, no, no, no, we'll get this working.
It took an hour and a half.
Oh, you know, you've been a free-node live,
but obviously that was in Bristol.
So, yes, that makes that perfect sense.
You know, you mentioned free software.
You know what that reminds me of?
What's that?
Free software.
You know what I mean,
free software, free money,
free software, yeah.
No, no, free is in freedom.
I was going to make a recommendation.
Sorry, what's free?
I don't understand free data.
Free is in freedom.
Free is in freedom, I have no idea.
This is the time in the place,
but at least let me get my recommendation out first.
And then we can make this the time in the place
for free versus free conversation.
Yeah, please.
Anyway, just in case anyone who hears this
doesn't listen to dev random,
and I'm sure no one who listens to this does,
I found an awesome, awesome, awesome app
in the Eftroids store for Android
called Flavor Decks.
And it's built so that you can catalog
and take pictures and do star ratings.
And it's all personal.
If you don't have to share it with anybody
or take theirs, I would like for there to be a way to be,
but I don't know if there is.
Maybe there is.
I don't know.
Anyway, and it's pre-built for whiskey
and wine and beer and something else,
but I've been able to make it work for pipe tobacco.
I just added it as a category.
And it's really, really nice.
I did it on you random as our Eftroids spotlight,
which we don't always do,
it's just everyone's in a while.
We'll find something in spotlight it.
And this made the cut.
This is an awesome, awesome little app.
What's the name of that again?
Flavor Decks.
We have a story for those from the west country of England.
And again, and perhaps, although it may have been,
also, it may have originally come from Scotland.
Yes, of course.
Now that I think of it,
it's a counter to your money clip argument.
A counter to the argument for the money clip
or the argument against the money clip.
It was the counter to the argument for the money clip.
An American went to Scotland with a Velcro wallet
and one of the Scottish people said,
saw them opening it and hearing the traditional Velcro screech.
I, yes, that's a good Scotch pocket.
It screams when you open it.
Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Yeah.
Is that calling Scotch cheap or did I miss the joke?
Yeah, Scotch is cheap.
And glad my touch down co-hosts on here this evening.
Not necessarily cheap.
They just take the spend money.
Uh, okay.
That's Scotch.
I do really love it.
I, I, no, it's not the same thing.
Okay, we, we, we have a, we have a common stereotype
that the Scotts are, are tight-fisted.
It's not true from what I've experienced with Scottish people,
but it's a funny little, you know,
it's a funny stereotype.
It's like a stereotype that, you know,
people from the west country always being drunk,
except that one's true.
So the couple, the couple of differences
that I see immediately, not to be a mycog,
but you can be generous and be happy to spend money
on friends and family and still be cheap
on a day-to-day basis.
And you can also be thrifty or frugal
and always go for like the best bang
for your buck choice after doing some research.
You're thinking thought too hard about this.
That just cheap.
I think too hard about everything.
I can't turn it off.
I'm sorry, fellas.
I didn't mean to bring it down.
There it is.
There's another story about Americans
who have a certain fear of debt.
This guy said that his father or grandfather
borrowed $10 from a farmer.
And he said,
the farmer never asked for his $10 back.
As long as he paid him a dollar a week.
Good deal.
If you're the farmer or the other guy,
really, if you're satisfied with that.
I don't understand the point of the story, though.
He acknowledged the obligation,
but he never had to pay the principal back.
Just the interest.
Yeah.
No, I got that,
but how did that relate to being afraid of debt?
It's basically America.
Yeah, it's like the total amount you'll end up paying
is like $52.
Other clothes just paying the $10.
Oh, I had $25,000 in student loans.
And that's low.
$25,000 in student loans is low.
I've been paying on it for 10 years.
And I meant like $15,000.
And that's only because, you know,
we weren't required to pay for a long time
and I kept paying.
So what you meant was that Americans are afraid
to acknowledge the existence of the concept of debt
before signing on to more of it than they can afford?
Well, it's not a matter of signing on to more of it
than you can afford.
They saw you the American dream.
The only way to get ahead is to go to college,
blah, blah, blah, get a better paying job, et cetera, et cetera.
Now granted, most of that is garbage.
But what they don't tell you and what they do with 18-year-old kids
that don't know any better with their finances
is they do two things to put you in debt.
One, they convince you to go to college
that you can't afford to pay for.
And in order to do that, you have to take out loans.
And two, you're 18 years old, you need to be able to eat
and dress so they get you on a credit card.
And then, hey, look, zero APR for the first six months.
And then afterwards, 24%.
And they don't tell you how that works until you're paying it
and you keep paying and you keep paying.
And the amount that you owe keeps staying the same.
The first part you're 100% correct about,
the second part can happen at any age, not just 18.
And I think four has been keyed up.
But I think it's predatory when it happens to an 18-year-old
that has never handled their own finances before.
Yes, the things you listed are the bait
and the credit is the trap.
So I was just going to say, in the UK,
we have the world's stupidest sort of student loan system.
So we never used to have student loans.
We had an equal to student grant.
And it was basically paid for by taxes.
And then all of a sudden, under the Blair government,
I want to say, the labor government,
they introduced this idea of student loans.
But so student loans can actually get extremely expensive
in the UK, like America, yes, you're saying $25,000.
My debt is currently 47,000 pounds.
Did he just call for everything?
Do you want to just leave?
The reason mine is only $25,000 is because
our only came out to $25,000 is because I'm a veteran
and I'm a disabled veteran.
And I was getting money from the government to go to school.
It just wasn't enough to actually go to school and live.
But I've got a friend who she went to,
once I call Cornell, and hers is less than mine.
I'm just saying, it's not this sort of hard and fast thing
of like Americans always pay more.
In fact, mine ends up being pretty expensive.
But that is the joke, you see.
Here's the joke.
We pay interest on that every month.
And you can, if you want to, start paying it down.
But after 30 years, they'll forget the debt anyway.
Explain that to me.
Right, because they want 30 years of payments from you.
You can actually stop paying, and they won't be able
to find you most of the time.
Oh, here they'll find you.
Sorry, get you a move.
Well, all of what he said, but I want to add in.
You're also university, was it $9,000 to go to university,
yeah?
And I think stop them, get free, don't make.
They do, if you're Scottish.
Yeah, if you're Scottish, yeah.
And if you're Scottish, and you go to a Scottish university,
or if you're Welsh, and you go to a Welsh university,
you get it for free.
If you're English, and you go to any university in the UK,
you have to pay 9 grand a year, because nobody likes you.
Well, except for one university, the one that I went to,
the University of Hard Knocks, that's free.
Oh, nice.
Well, there's a cost.
It's just not monetary.
That's the not worth it.
Actually, what you're interested in with US student loans
is the bankers put them ahead of any other debt or payment
system.
You're on disability, they'll suck up your student loan.
They'll suck up your disability pay
to pay off your student loans, yes.
So good.
Yeah.
And you can't support anything.
Yeah, you can't get rid of the student loans
by declaring bankruptcy.
You can't get rid of the student loans by dying.
It just, they will take it from your estate,
and then anything left over goes to your family.
They still owe it to the bank.
But I didn't.
Yeah, I paid them off early too,
because I got it down to a point.
Mind you, I'm in my 50s now.
So I paid them off in my 40s, which is rare.
But I got to a point where I looked at it,
and it was a certain amount.
I'm like, I can afford that, and I just paid it all off.
They were probably.
Yeah, get rid of that interest.
I may be at a point in my 40s where I earn enough money
to pay off my student loans.
But on principle, I will not pay off my student loans.
I will wait for it to run out.
I will stop paying it.
The reason for that is that they changed the terms
of the agreement after I signed it.
So I don't see why I should have to pay them anything.
Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people that can.
I just feel like, you know, the government
changed the terms of the agreement.
They changed the terms of the sort of,
they changed the terms of how student loans worked
after I'd already signed off the student loans.
So that invalidates the agreement I signed.
So theoretically, I've not signed any agreement.
Did you hear what they did?
In terms of the deal, we do not change them anymore.
Did you hear what they did to teachers here?
Essentially, what happened was teachers
require X amount of education, college education, of course,
right?
Well, the US government offered to pay for said education
if these teachers worked X amount of years
for community schools, essentially.
And but you had to pay for it first.
So you had to get the loans and pay for everything first.
And then once these teachers went out
and actually, you know, got the jobs
that they were supposed to get in order
to get this all paid for, they were like,
no, we ran out of money.
We're not paying anything.
Enjoy your loans, pay them back yourself.
Classic, classic.
If I could just take the opportunity to quickly jump in,
I'm going to take my leave.
It's nothing to do with Joe Resenton having shown up.
Joe Ross, but the last time he and I,
but the last time he and I run an event similar to this one,
we ended up talking about monetizing podcasting
until four in the morning and I did up with a hangover.
So you're leaving me now then.
No, genuinely, it's not to do with you, Joe.
I would happily speak with you for, you know,
the next 12 hours about absolutely nothing at all.
But unfortunately, I'm falling asleep
and my beer is just about to end.
Well, it may be enough to show the love of glitters
so you maybe can turn up later.
Yeah, well, you'll still be on the go to the mid-day.
You're still on the go to the mid-day.
I think I think I asked your numbers on me
cast a while ago, Joe Res.
You should come back, hang out.
Have a great year.
It's been a long, long time since I was on that show, my friend.
Yeah, you should come back.
We've missed you.
I know, but I don't really use the next minute anymore
or advise anyone else uses it.
So it would feel somewhat hypocritical
to come back on that show, I'm afraid.
I'll come back on a roadside, I don't like it anymore.
Neither the windows now.
Okay, that's crossing a line.
Well, I just realized, Joe, I'm falling asleep.
You have a...
We have a distro neutral podcast that he could join.
Yeah, we don't have good enough sound quality for Joe Res.
On the Linux look, yes.
Well, it doesn't matter about distro agnostic,
I have an operating system agnostic approach.
If you use windows, good for you.
If you use macOS, good for you.
If you use WSL, good for you.
I'm not going to necessarily use those things,
but if you want to use it and you're happy
and you get your job done, then I'm not going to judge you.
That's not a very nice thing to do, is it?
To judge people's choices.
Not publicly.
Oh, of course, when you can sign it,
it'll silently judge.
I'm a freaking hippie.
Well, we are extremely distro agnostic
on Mintcast, believe it or not.
Yes, a lot of it is mint focused,
but we're talking about anything that's going on
in Linux in general.
Otherwise, we'd run out of things
to talk about real quick.
Well, yeah, it's a podcast by the Linux Mint community
for all users of Linux.
Yeah.
It's one of those situations as we're like,
I follow you on MasterDon and Twitter,
and yeah, I've never actually encountered you
in a room like this.
So, hi.
I think you and I have talked before, haven't we, Joe?
I would imagine so, yeah.
On here.
Yeah, almost everything.
Yeah, it's almost every year I pop in for a little bit
because my wife goes to bed
and I'm just kind of drunk and bored.
So, yeah, I'm kind of drunk and not bored.
There's my audio back, can anyone hear me this time?
Yeah, we can hear you.
Yeah.
I'm great if you got, what microphone is it guys?
Sounds amazing.
I'd have to look it up on Amazon.
It's a little Sony stereo lapel mic.
It was probably between $7 and $17.
Wow.
Sounds absolutely great.
Yeah, it doesn't, like, it's a clip mic.
It's a little thing you'd clip to your lapel.
So, you've got to clip it someplace stable
and that's hard for me to do.
So, it always, often you'll hear bumping against my shirt
like that or sliding around or something.
Yeah, that sounds terrible.
But when it's in the right position,
that sounds absolutely great to me.
Yeah, if you could clip it to a mic stand,
you'd have a podcast set up.
I mean, it's just a two and a half millimeter plug.
It's just, you know, you need a two and a half
for the mic and a two and a half of your headphones
as opposed to a four ring, three and a half
that has both or an adapter.
It's just electrical.
Interesting.
Yeah, well, sounds good as it is now.
So, keep doing what you're doing, it's my interest.
Oh, thank you, sir.
Speaking of monetizing podcasts,
who here has looked into Castapod?
Not me, but it sounds interesting.
Please tell me more.
Okay, so Castapod is a federated service.
I know about them because I'm fun,
well maintainer and they do podcasting like we do.
But they do a lot of additional things,
like they've got a lot of additional features
and stuff like that, such as monetizing podcasts.
So, it's Fediverse software,
but it can do stuff like premium episodes
and that sort of thing.
How does it monetize and what kind of monetizing
are you talking about?
Well, it allows for things like I say,
like premium episodes.
So, I imagine they integrate with payment providers
in a standard way and then produce,
sort of, subscribe a specific RSS feeds
in a similar way to something like a sub-stack.
I don't actually know the technical details,
but I'm guessing that's how they work.
They all try and stuff like.
Yeah, so, Patron is what I use for that.
Yeah, because Patron and I upload Advert 3 RSS feeds,
Advert 3 episodes, too, and RSS feed that people can.
Yeah.
Patron takes care of all of the back end of that
and when people stop paying,
the RSS feed stops working and stuff
and I don't have to do anything.
Is that what you're talking about?
I'd be more of the financial handling
or the content side of it.
It's the content, specifically.
They don't handle all payments.
They integrate with payment providers.
This is one thing you'll notice
about all of us Fediverse developers.
We do not want to touch payments with a barge poll.
That stuff is far too complicated
and needs to be centralized.
It cannot be done in a federated way.
The best we can do in another project.
Well, I've not heard of Boosts, my friend.
I've not heard of the Lightning Network and Boosts
and Bitcoin and Crypto.
That's definitely the answer to this.
And not Total Bullshit, Pyramid's Game, Ponzi's Game,
or whatever, it's definitely the future.
Joel, Joel, I say, is that can you live on that
or is it just a way to get started?
That was sarcasm, and I do not recommend any of that at all.
And I agree that payment systems have to be centralized
and regulated.
Otherwise, bad things happen long-term.
Well, thank you for clearing that up.
OK, that sounded sincere.
The best that we can do, I British people,
is hard to tell sometimes.
We sound sarcastic all the time.
That's why the best of me is my favorite who
we're don't apologize for that.
I just missed it.
I'm not, I'm eight and a half out of 10 tonight, maybe.
I'm drinking.
But the best that we can do is, so I work on another project
called Retribute.
And the idea is that it uses your Fediverse information
such as you can log in with Mastodon or P.H.U.
or Funquale.
And basically, you can get a weighted list of who you've
interacted with.
So in the case of Funquale, it's what artists have you
listened to most.
In the case of Mastodon, who have you interacted with most,
P.H.U., who have you watched most.
And then it basically aggregates those into a list
and gives you links to their payment providers
that they have put in their profile or in their associated
links.
And the idea is we'd like to build on that
to be more of a tool that can use, put in place budgeting
and stuff like that.
Just to make that kind of user-driven donation model
more readily available in the parent in the Fediverse.
But what Castapod do is more traditional.
They do sort of, like I say, they have like Patreon,
like Substat, they have this paid RSS feed
for specifically paid content paid episodes.
And they also, I believe, do they have the ability
to add things like region-specific advertising,
I believe is the thing they can do.
Oh, have you heard that personally?
I get a lot of it, because I live in Germany,
so my podcasts that are in English get disrupted
by Germans talking about.
And that's close-up, Vickyus.
And I'm just like, when's the first time you notice that?
Oh, it's been there for ages.
I've noticed it.
I think I probably started noticing it around 2017, 2018,
something other.
OK, because I was thinking, I only
heard it maybe a year, year and a half ago.
That's impressive.
It's becoming really big.
Dude, I'm sorry.
I hate it, but that is impressive tech
that your pod catcher obviously has to report an address.
But the server can go, OK, that address,
we insert these ads at these locations, these timestamps,
and recompile on the fly, in less than the time
that it takes to download our finished podcast.
More than likely, what they do is,
and I've not looked into the tech, but my imagination
is that they have a central server,
and basically they get a report back of a location
from the pod catcher, and they fish out whatever ad
makes sense there.
So it's the same link.
I, I feed.
No, I don't think so.
It's actually way, way more sinister than that.
If you're dealing with a Spotify's one that they bought,
it's way, way more sinister.
What was the one they bought?
Can I get a joke from it?
Joe?
Yeah, go on.
All right, don't forget what you're going to say
because I'm going to say whatever he's a,
whatever Joe's about to say, is correct.
And here's why I know what he's about to say is correct,
is why I know it's not just pre-compiled for the region,
it's just because I've used it while traveling.
And you can get, there are,
there are Venn diagram overlap areas
on the physical map of the United States,
where those ads will change in the same episode.
It's, it, well, not once it's been downloaded,
but from the same server, from the same podcast,
and it doesn't take but a hundred miles or so
to do it.
It's, I think, I think it is based on,
at least here in the States,
the, the three letter code for the nearest airport,
because that's the way weather is done.
It's, it's not by zip code,
it's not as granular as town,
but it may be by weather region.
No, it's, it's way more sinister than that, I'm afraid.
It's, it's not on you.
It's based on, I mean, in theory, let's, let's face it,
this, this tech is relatively new,
and it's part of the whole ad tech,
spying whatever you want to call it, tracking.
And we can, and it's neatly fit into a slot in the database.
Well, yeah, but so the, the deal with it is,
what you're talking about is dynamically inserted ads, right?
And so the technology of that's relatively straightforward.
You've got quite a beefy server, server,
your podcast client requests a download,
they make a decision on what ads are going to get stitched in,
they get stitched in in less than a second,
into the audio file, and then it gets downloaded to your,
or streamed to your device,
and then you have the ads they have decided.
That is, I mean, we're all technical,
we understand how you could do that,
if you had a beefy enough server,
but how they make the decision, that's the sinister part.
So they, I mean, it's much like how this decision is made
when you're browsing without ad block enabled on web pages.
They are targeted at you, you know,
you, you Google searched for, I don't know.
What did I search for recently?
Bluetooth speakers, and then I just get bombarded
with loads of different Bluetooth speaker ads everywhere I go.
And so the theory is that they are.
Which is a punchline.
Sorry, can I, you go ahead.
Right, I listened to this.
I think I was like, what are they talking about?
Although I think I get this now.
Well, I might be able to take your long,
many way, internet radio, okay?
I just want to say a metal station from Germany,
or France, or whatever.
But actually Netherlands begin with,
and what I notice suddenly,
is I was getting my kind of local advert.
Like, I was thinking like, yeah,
why am I getting a local advert for everywhere in Bristol?
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Yeah, and it's part of its location.
Obviously.
Well, so Joe, go ahead, myself back.
Quick punchline, and then get back, please.
It doesn't work because after you buy the Bluetooth speaker,
you get those same ads for the next three months,
so they really don't know shit.
All they can do is watch.
That's the upside to this.
That's the bright side.
Well, that's one way of looking at it.
Another way of looking at it is I have a return period,
and I may say an advert for a Bluetooth speaker
that's better than the one that I bought,
and I may return this one to Amazon.
So you can add back to India to be burnt,
and then I will buy a better one
for a cheaper price, potentially.
But anyway, as I was saying,
it's kind of based on...
Oh, music.
Have you ever had your IP address
on the internet radio station?
And you can tell you're actually in Britain.
So in that case, here's the advert for you.
Well, we hear you, Zav, live that vibe.
We're just not letting you interrupt the conversation
to say that we hear you.
Yes, Mosque, we hear you.
Ah, well, now I hear me.
I had the headphone plug in at a wrong port.
That's what the repeater bot's for.
Have you tried the repeater bot?
I have no idea.
Dude, it's the audio test room.
If you go in there, you'll get a personalized repeater bot
and you can sound check before popping into a room.
Well, I'm good.
Yes, you are.
I hope so.
Anyway, the too long didn't read is that
it's somewhat based on location.
They try and make it based on your own profile
that they build around you,
and they are constantly improving that profile on everyone.
And it is sinister, and I don't like it.
My weather.
What is sinister in the way that all add tech
and tracking is sinister?
Because you see, I believe I firmly believe in advertising
as a way to monetize anything on the internet
because that's how it's always been done
and how I believe it will always be done.
I don't think that people want to pay for things.
I think people want things for free.
And so the bottom line is you need to have ads,
but I don't believe that those ads need to be targeted
at individuals.
I think they need to be targeted to the content.
So if you if you have a great blog post
about Bluetooth speakers,
then you should have a ton of ads next to it
about Bluetooth speakers.
And if you if you have a podcast about Linux and open source,
then you should have adverts that are relevant
to the kind of person who would listen to that.
So, may I answer the same question, Seb?
Yeah.
It's soon I'm going to be listening about AFK.
It's sinister in that it feeds you an echo chamber
and they don't tell you that that's what they're doing
and people really like echo chambers
so they don't bother to check that that's what's being done.
Can I just interject here?
This is my day job.
Hi, I work for a company called Adjust.
We are a mobile head tech company.
So I get to see all this stuff happening on the back
and I am absolutely on board with Joe.
I don't agree with what we do either.
Yeah, I'm totally against it.
It's just a job that got me into a country
that I wanted to live in.
But I will just say on this front,
sinister is perhaps the wrong way to look at it
if only because the algorithms, quote unquote,
that are making these decisions are entirely done
have no knowledge of what you are,
who you are, don't want to know.
So when we say personal data is being collected about you,
the thing that's being collected at least on the mobile,
I mean, web is worse, web is a lot worse.
Don't let me, you know, don't let me get me wrong.
The web cookie tracking, that stuff is really bad.
But for mobile tech, basically your device
has a GDPR compliant advertising ID on it.
It is a string of numbers, it's a UID,
basically a string of numbers and text.
It could be reset at any time and at that point,
any data collected on you is worthless, frankly,
because it no longer reports back anything associated with you.
It may be advertising you.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Yeah.
Go ahead, seven, and I'm next.
I was talking, well, I said I was listening to someone
and I was talking about internet radio,
which has seems to be the same fake and damnly
that we were talking about.
But if I'm just into internet radio
and I picked the foreign country,
I don't want to hear that stupid local advert.
I really don't.
And in fact, I'd rather hear the bare advert
like you would on the radio station,
like the Swedish one, I was getting the local adverts.
But yeah, it's done by IP address advertising
and things like that.
And then they came up cookies and other things
as well and into that.
And Google's following us as well.
Well, yes, but who in,
so if you want to listen to a podcast
that sprouts from Indonesia,
who in Indonesia gives a shit if you hear their ad?
So those aren't the ones that want to pay for you to hear.
Oh, yeah.
The lumber store up the street from you, however,
has discovered that people are listening to podcasts
and you'll hear an ad for the lumber store
up the street from you because they want you to get their ad.
And I've got to say, well done in the execution.
I don't love the implementation
or being subject to it,
but well done in its implementation.
Now I forgot my question, so continue.
Well, that's forcing you to hear some local adverts
when you don't want to.
In fact, if I want local adverts,
I'll turn the normal radio on there, BBC, whatever, you know.
But that's inside the point that we don't even have on ads.
It's you either get ads and you pay for the content.
That's neither here nor there.
I'm just saying, if you have to have ads,
it's better for the guy paying for the ad
that he hits someone local.
And frankly, it's probably better for me
if the guy pay into someone local
because at least then I got a chance
of keeping a small business in business.
Oh, I guess just use a VPN or whatever.
I'm tend to from other country.
And then I guess it doesn't mean that other.
Well, the research that has been done,
and there is a lot of research around this,
is that actually people find targeted ad
much less annoying than general ads.
Because targeted ads actually have a chance
of meaning something to them.
And what Joe was suggesting,
which was the targeted content ad ads
would probably fit this as well.
But general ads that do not have anything to do with you
have no basis in your prior search history
or in the case of mobile ad tech in your prior installs
are actually considered much more annoying by most users
than ads that actually means something to them.
This is why when Apple introduced iOS 14,
they introduced this thing called the SK ad network
and with it the sort of corollary privacy tools, quote, unquote,
which allows people to block access to what's called the ADID,
which is that string of numbers I was talking about.
I'm going to ask you a quick question since this is your job.
And I will forget this question if I don't ask now.
Who's more valuable to you, the average user,
or people, I don't want to say like us, but frankly like us,
who recognize that this is going on.
Everybody knows it's going on.
The most valuable people are not everybody.
Some people use Facebook and shit.
Well, yeah, but here's the thing.
So there are a few things.
There are classifications.
And if you've ever done any research into gaming apps,
you know this.
There are classifications people that go all the way
from basically not payers to what they call whales.
There are a very small number of users
who are responsible for the vast majority of purchases.
The average user does not purchase things
based on advertisements.
It just doesn't happen.
That's not what advertisers know this.
They're casting a very wide net.
They know that there are basically going to be in every,
I don't know, 10,000 people they get.
There's actually only going to be maybe 15 who actually buy,
but they buy a lot.
They're people with a lot of disposable income.
But back to the point that was going on about with podcasts,
the most valuable thing when it comes to advertising
and targeted advertising is not you.
It is not knowing about your previous actions.
It's not knowing about your previous behavior.
It is your location.
Where are you currently?
Because that is what links this up to different businesses
that might have a chance at selling you something right now.
So when you have apps that are asking for location access,
one of the big reasons for this is it's super important
that they know where you are right now
so that they can start recommending things to you
that's in the local area that you might go and buy.
Because that's how companies like mine get asked
to put ads in front of people who are nearby.
That's the most important sort of thing in advertising.
So again, why is it useless to tell?
Well, because going back to your point,
you said if somebody in Indonesia has an ad,
why would they want me in the UK to hear that ad?
They don't.
It doesn't do anything for them.
It doesn't help them in any way.
Unless they have online service,
sorry, when they're here.
Unless they have some sort of service that is online
and can be purchased from anywhere.
Say a cloud provider.
For example, are these two things?
Always just didn't send that radio.
And well, I can't really see his point.
But I mean, if it's incident radio, there's a chance
I've got a link to Sweden.
I'm going to want just the Swedish radio statement.
In fact, I might even go to Sweden.
Then I might be gay.
It wasn't that I probably wouldn't be gay
or that for whatever.
That's for local advertising.
It's a bit like we can see his point.
You've got more chance at selling something
if it's local, but it's a bit annoying
when you listen to something that's otherwise
and have a duck and you go, I don't know.
Advertisers don't care about what's annoying.
If they did, they wouldn't advertise.
Yeah, they care about ROI return on investment.
Yeah, they care about ROI.
And is to your point where it says that they, you know,
maybe I'll go to Sweden one day, doesn't matter.
That's one day.
That's not today.
That's not right now.
I want your money now.
That's advertising.
Is there a way for the internet seller
to target locations just like local sellers do?
And is there a way for them to determine
which locations are better and worse for them?
Are you into that yet?
Sure, I mean, there is good research to indicate
when, you know, for example,
going to Joe's point about cloud resellers
and stuff like that.
Whereas it's most useful to hear about that.
Well, in cities, London, New York, places like that,
where people are working for businesses,
where they're most likely to actually be working
in an industry.
So for example, you're going to get bombarded
with that kind of thing in Silicon Valley,
but maybe less so in rural Yorkshire.
But those are no point.
So those are services, yes?
Sure, yeah.
Those are like cloud services, AWS, for example.
How about, and I'm not arguing with you,
I'm sorry, this is really fascinating.
It's just spurring questions out of me.
What about material goods?
If I want to sell, I just bought a new little CNC machine
and I think I'm doing good with it and it,
and I want to be able to sell CNC goods to motorcyclists.
Sorry, that was predictable, Taj.
No, I think, I think, I feel, no paper,
you can't advertise like this on the local
or that radio station like podcast, whatever,
because you're not a company,
I think would be answered to that if you're just a person
with that helps with,
that's what you kind of get.
I mean, I'm talking specifically,
I don't know about radio advertising,
that's beyond my purfew, I just know about mobile advertising
and to the point that was, yes, that is my question.
It is a radio advertising target that people know.
No, no, no, I'm, step it up from where I think,
step it up, say I want to, I want to,
I want to turn this from a hobby into a business
or I want to turn this from a business
into a slightly larger business.
Can I still, I'm asking specifically to sport,
can I still find, and I sell on the internet,
I'm not just a local guy, I want to,
I want to step it up from, I do good locally,
I want to step it up, my internet sales,
can, can, have you dabbled it,
I want to ask specifically about your platform
that you work for, I'm trying to frame it outside of that,
but can I, do you understand,
as a guy who would explain it to me,
how a person in that scenario would target a podcast,
listener, physically on the globe?
So to kind of outline what my business does,
we're in the, we're in the sort of business of,
what's called, what's it called?
It's a mobile measure, so,
what we do, I'm a technical writer,
I don't get into the actual programming in Integrity,
but basically what we do is we attribute,
things like app installs to the advertisers
that that succeeded in getting to install it.
So the stuff we're talking about specifically is apps,
but theoretically from what you're talking about,
there are lots of different factors here.
Advertises do collect large bases of information about,
yes, you and your behavior as an individual,
but also, like I say, the generalized information
about an area you live in.
To take your example about motorcycle equipment,
if you happen to be in an area such as,
you are, let's say you're in Wisconsin, okay?
You're in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and...
Oh, it's the home of Harley-Davidson,
it's also, let's say for example,
it is currently the Harley-Davidson Festival.
There is a very good chance that,
because you're in that location at that time,
even if you yourself do not have a history
of doing anything with motorcycles,
you are suddenly surrounded by a bunch of people
who are involved with motorcycles
and are very, we are talking thousands here.
So there's a big concentration there
and they're basically gonna catch a cast all net.
So say geographically, I want to basically target
this area for however long.
Now, you as a business, the way that this would work for you,
is you being...
It's as powerful as it is geographically.
Yeah, there's loads of different factors.
This stuff is really complicated,
but the way it would work for you as a business owner now,
is you would go to an advertiser and say,
I am going to give you basically this much money,
and I want you to put my ads in front of people,
and the return on investment I want from that is this much
in sales and to the advertiser's job
to then use their body of knowledge
to put that ad in front of as many people as possible.
My software, for example, the software I work on,
if this were an app, for example,
you have an app and you want to advertise it,
the software that I work on would basically determine
who gets paid for the install.
So when a user clicks an ad and gets taken to the app store
to install that app,
an advertiser needs to be paid.
Now, you might have got three advertisers advertising the app
in the same way.
You need to know which one of them got that done.
And so basically advertisers are always vying
to be the one who got the install or to got the sale
or whatever it was.
So they will use their vast knowledge of human behavior,
existing human behavior,
existing user behavior, but also, yes, geography
and patterns of behavior in a certain area
to target that ad where they're going to get the best ROI.
So yeah, it's one of those things.
It's very, I mean, it's sinister as a word for it.
Again, sinister implies, I think,
a motivated person behind this who is doing all of this.
But in reality, it's a bunch of dumb systems
that know nothing being strapped together.
And it's actually, like I say,
peek into one of these systems.
They don't know who you are.
They don't care.
They just know this UUID that's associated with your device,
not with you.
So this is interesting.
So it's interrupt.
So it's interrupt, man.
But I would love to talk to you about this properly
when I'm not terribly drunk and on a shitty mobile connection
in the wind.
So just like, at me somewhere or some email or something,
because I really want to talk to you in depth about this
if you have time to an inclination to do so.
But I really would love to talk to you more about this.
Bad news is, outside of tonight, he's 120 pounds an hour.
It's true.
Well, I do have those little dollars, you know.
I mean, like I say, I'm a technical writer.
So my job is really very perfunctory.
My job is basically to look at APIs
and tell you how they work.
But we did.
Yeah, you've tried this to explain technology.
Your job is basically the same as mine.
But I told her and you write, it's very similar.
Yeah, it's just that I don't write about the sort of,
you know, I have a very limited purview of what I write about.
But we did do about three weeks of onboarding
where we got this all explained to us.
And this industry is constantly evolving
and my company is one of the ones at the forefront of it.
So, you know, they are very...
Hence why I want to talk to you about how you do.
To me, that's why I want to talk to you.
To be totally fair, Sporov, I've asked you
pretty much only marketing questions
and you're a technical writer.
And there's not a lot of overlap there.
But really, you've done a hero's job of it.
Yeah, I mean, we work with marketers specifically.
And they are the ones who come to us to ask us
to implement new features to, you know,
handle these new upcoming features
that they really want to get in with.
But the best people to talk to about this stuff
would be the actual advertising agencies.
You know, it would be people like...
I tell you that, well, our parent company is...
Our parent company is one called, I think,
is Apple Oven or something.
And they are one of the market leaders
in the actual tech behind advertising.
Like, they're really...
Like, they're really big on this stuff.
And it is worth looking into these different ad agencies
and seeing how they do what they do.
Because they go to explaining,
at least in a sort of obfuscated way,
how they get your ads in front of people.
And it's fascinating.
So it really is a fascinating subject.
Like I say, I personally,
if I were given the choice of working in mobile ad tech,
it wouldn't have been my choice.
But where I work is a very good company
in terms of being employed there.
They're very nice.
They're very...
They were willing to take me on as a writer
when I had no previous experience with it.
So can't complain about it.
Do you have to go to the office or can you do a remote?
I am fully remote.
I do go into the office sometimes,
but now I live 45 minutes away,
so I don't bother most of the time.
Can I rotate the gym to see a different facet?
I don't want to actually transition.
Sorry, I'm talking like a podcaster.
What kinds of advertising,
because we haven't discussed direct payment of a podcast,
what other kinds of advertising are all of us willing
to put up with?
If it's not this directed advertising
that comes at you based on where you're standing
when you download the podcast,
what else are you...
Like just as an example, the live read,
or that's the only example I can think of.
I shouldn't have said or.
One good example of this, actually, for me,
is there's a really good podcast called Maintainable,
and Maintainable is produced by a company,
and the only advertising they do is for themselves.
So basically, they use it as a vehicle to advertise themselves,
and I will never use their services,
they work as a specifically Ruby on Rails consultancy firm,
which is not a software product I use,
or something I would definitely need,
but I appreciate the advertising firm
for Ruby on Rails consultancy.
Well, sure, yeah.
Well, another example of that is thinking Elexia,
which is a very, very specific podcast about Elexia,
the programming language, which is,
I can't remember what it's derived from,
I'm sure someone will tell me right now,
and that's sponsored by some big company
in the Elexia world anyway,
and that's their whole thing is to just advertise themselves,
and they pay an editor and all the rest of it
to produce a professional sounding podcast.
That's one route to go down,
and it's something I've explored as well,
and I've had meetings with people and got close
and done pilots and whatnot,
and well, for a while,
kind of did that for a living for 18 months in a way.
So can I ask other than Joe and Spore,
if the other people in the room who were listening,
would you listen to a podcast like that
that just puts on, basically it sounds like propaganda
to me, it sounds like self-hosted,
self-circling propaganda to anybody else in the room,
what do you think?
Well, I know that we have upwards of a thousand people
listening to distrahopper who digest,
so I really don't see how we couldn't have a niche podcast
for the people that wanted to listen to their niche podcast.
Yeah, but I'm not asking about niche podcast.
I'm asking like your bread and butter stuff,
or even if it is your niche podcast,
the guy making it says,
hey, I can't afford to do this anymore
if I don't start getting some money coming in.
What are you willing to put up with
what would you prefer to have presented to you
as his or her monetization plan?
My first preference is donations.
If we do go to ads, we want it to be ads that we support
that we use, not something that just happens
to be on the topic.
But everyone knows that I'm regret.
Yeah, I'm really on the fringe of this.
I've taken heat for promoting my podcast as being ad free.
Indeed, we've clashed about it,
and I've talked to you pretty much everywhere I can think of
because of it, because you have publicly said,
you've probably talked about advertising
as being like a really negative thing.
And you're entitled to your opinion.
I'm not talking about talking about you from my,
I am not very advertising as a negative thing.
I'm preferring to most of my listeners
seeing it as a negative thing
and me not needing advertising money.
So it's a promotional thing.
If you want to reach people that don't want to hear
advertising in a podcast, you have to promote
that you don't have advertising in your podcast.
I guess so, but you know,
if you just want to do something as a hobby,
then good luck.
But you know, I do this for a living, man.
So I'm not putting you down for what you do,
and I don't think you should be putting down
me down for what I do.
Yeah, for Joe, Taj and I,
and Lyle, who's not here at the moment,
we do a podcast together.
We don't take ads.
We never want to take ads.
If it gets to the point where that if we need
to take advertisements or to collect money,
we kind of decide it as a group
that we don't want to continue the podcast at that point.
So I mean, thank God for free software.
Podcasting is monetarily cheap enough
that we've been able to continue doing this.
And by we being able to continue doing this,
I mean, Taj and Lyle do it in a lanyard attack along.
Hi, Taj, have a new year.
Happy new year.
Yeah, totally.
Like if you just want to do it as a hobby,
then yeah, thanks to free and open source software
and various other services,
you can do it pretty much completely for free at this point
and not even need any donations.
Maybe like a domain if you want to splash out
10 bucks a year or 20 bucks for one of those fancy domains.
And otherwise, yeah, it can be completely free.
But that's just not what I went into this thinking.
I went into this thinking that I want to make podcasts
about Linux and open source not shit
like they were when I came into this nearly 10 years ago.
And I want to try and raise the quality
and I want to make people actually do good shows
and the only way I can do that is by doing that myself.
And so I spent a long time getting good
at making shows about Linux
and the only way I can do that is by getting paid to do it
because I'm not just going to do it totally for free.
And so I made it my job and now it is my job.
And when some people come along and say,
oh, well, when people come into my social channels
like my telegram group and start advertising
their podcast as being, we've got no adverts.
So we're better or we're great because we've got no adverts.
Like, I'm just wondering what I'm saying.
I'm not ever saying we're better
because we have no adverts.
I'm just saying we have no adverts.
You have an attitude about this that I don't have
and I don't understand why you're upset with me
for promoting my product the way it is.
This debate sounds way older than the,
however many of us sit down tonight.
It is way older and I very nearly left
when I realized he was here.
And then he started talking about it in the chat
and riled me up a little bit.
And I'm really trying not to get angry and leave
by I think I might have to because I just,
we don't agree on this.
Well, you don't have to leave
because you're doing a pretty disagree with somebody.
That's what's wrong with the world today.
Just learn to communicate with people.
This is a miscommunicated people.
Like it's literally my job.
It's not about communicating with people.
Sometimes you just have to accept
that some people can't be communicated with man
and you have to just block him.
And once you get to a certain,
I don't want to chat.
I'm saying there's at least 10, 12 other people
in the room right now
and you're saying interesting things
that we're interested in?
And so is Za-Valya, saying interesting things.
So I don't know, I guess I'm just asking you
for my own
the effection.
Just stick around,
and just we're having a conversation.
Tell it now,
because I've got questions for you,
you've said stuff that's prompted questions in my head
having nothing to do with Zalvia.
Can we put it in a real moment?
What does that have a lot?
I have no problem with Joe. Joe has a problem with me.
I don't understand it.
I'm trying to understand it.
Can you put aside for a moment
that he's talking all together?
Yeah.
Just if he shuts up and just stops talking,
then we can put it aside, no problem.
And I'll keep talking to the rest of you.
No problem, yeah.
But if he's going to keep button-in
and I'm going to leave, it's as simple as that.
I have no time for the fellow.
Sorry to bring drama.
It is an open room, but you're open to join
and you're open to leave.
And if you keep talking, I'm going to leave.
It's as simple as that.
You're also open to chase somebody out of the room
if you want to be obnoxious.
I did that to somebody one time
and I still haven't been given myself
and he probably hasn't forgiven me for it.
I don't want to be obnoxious.
Yes, yes.
I'm just being heard as being obnoxious.
I'm not.
Only by him.
Only just chill out when he's talking to someone
and leave that for another day.
That's all I'm asking.
OK, I can leave it.
Sorry, I was away well listening to it a bit.
And I see there's a heat-stug doing
some sort of hair, but can I be the...
Well, I'm one of the peace speaker.
But I want to ask a question to Joe actually
going with what he's saying just now about podcasting
and how he decided that he was going to do something
a bit different.
10 years ago, they weren't pretty good or whatever.
So it sounds like Joe is getting some
making some money doing podcasting.
It's what I do for a living, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think I've talked to you briefly before
and there you want to podcast people.
But it might have been an old camp,
but I'm not sure you'd be able to do anything with it.
My question is, what's the generally
growing up on here anyway?
It on HCR at some stage.
And this might actually be a good time,
if I can word this right.
Basically, is open source a pastime a hobby?
Or is it a job?
And what I mean is like, so I know
that a lot of open store stuff is voluntary.
It's hobbyist.
It's done for fun.
But then some things are done as a pastime.
And then the question can be, are you professional or not?
So in your case, are you a professional podcaster?
Would you say now?
If you see my question,
why I'm trying to ask, I don't know if it makes sense.
I think I understand.
Because you're going to take it out, as well.
So it's just a hobby.
Yes, yes.
Right, OK, so to be clear,
my only source of income is making podcasts.
Yeah, they are almost all about limits.
Hold on, hold on.
Seb, you really can't key up when anybody else is keyed up.
It instantly causes.
Oh, yeah, I've got the thingy having my feedback.
Yeah, it makes Joe and anybody else unintelligible.
Sorry, Joe, go ahead.
No, the alcohol makes me unintelligible.
No, it makes you looser in the lips.
I love it.
It's wiggling my hips.
It makes me almost say a word that gets me fired
from certain jobs.
So I need to, anyway.
So, right, yes.
What I do to be clear to everyone who doesn't know who I am.
What I do for a living is make podcasts about Linux.
So basically, the joke is I talk to my friends about Linux
for a living.
So basically, what everyone has been doing here tonight
and for the last, like 50 something hours, I think, or whatever
long this has been going in.
Anyway, that's the joke is that's what I do for a living.
But in reality, what I do is I craft those that are entertaining
and amusing and informative and thought-provoking
and not too long, not too short and whatever.
And I also have to sell a bunch of ads
and I have to deal with the finances of that.
And I have to be a terrible, terrible,
cis admin in a sense as well.
So yeah, that's what I do for a living is make shows
about Linux.
And the question about this idea of open source being
a hobbyist endeavor versus a professional endeavor,
there are two types of people who contribute to open source.
There are people who do it in their spare time
and there are people who do it for a living.
And that Vendoragram is not two separate circles.
There are often people who contribute to open source projects
for a company like Red Hat, let's say,
or Canonical or Suza, whoever I understand this week.
Yeah, I've been around a while.
It's not even circles, dude.
They overlap in weird non-uclidean ways.
Well, yeah, I was simplifying, I was simplifying,
obviously.
But I knew what I'm saying is this,
that to be an open source person
does not necessarily mean that you are paid all the time
or a volunteer all the time.
There's overlap, but there is a myth
that open source software is all volunteers.
And the reality of that is so far from that.
Most people who work on open source software
get paid to do so.
And you could argue that, well, most open source software
only has one person who develops it and maintains it
on some GitHub or GitLab or whatever repository.
But I'm talking about the open source software
that millions of people actually use.
Which are running their way.
Even if it is just that one person,
that one person still has to sustain themselves
day-to-day week, week, year-to-year.
Yeah, and so the best way to do that
is to get a company to pay, well,
to get your thing popular enough that a company
will pay you to work on it, because they are depending
on it and they realize that it's not a good idea
to depend on something that someone's doing
in their evenings and weekends.
But that's like a whole other debate.
But what does it mean?
It means that that's the best way of doing it
or that that's the only way, because best I can see that
is being like an incendiary word in the rest
of a completely agreeable sense.
It's a complicated issue.
The funding of open source is not something we can tackle
in 50 hours, 500 hours of discussion on mumble.
We can't even involve the project.
We can't even involve the project alcohol.
No, we can't agree.
We can have 100 new year HPR things
and still not come up with a solution
to the problem of funding or software.
But all I'm saying is this, my business model
is pretty straightforward, right?
I make great shows that a bunch of people listen to
and then I sell as many ads as I can
that are based on the content
and offer people the opportunity to listen to those shows
without any adverts if they're willing to pay
a certain number of dollars per month.
It's a relatively straightforward business model.
It doesn't involve any tracking as such.
It just involves tracking of how many people are downloading.
How many thousand people listen to that episode?
That's all I'm really interested in.
And to some extent, what country are you in?
But that's as granular as it gets.
And what's the demographics?
Well, I don't need tracking software to tell me
that it's 20 to 50 year old white men
who listen to my shows.
I just have to go to any event that I organize
and that fucking tells me who's listening to my shows.
Yeah, so, okay, in that case, my question is,
you would say you are, well, two questions here.
One is you would say you are professional podcasts.
Yes, that's what we do.
So that makes you not to the hobbyist.
That's the first question, yes.
Well, I make a living out of it,
whether that makes me professional or not
is a matter of humor, but yes,
I am a professional podcaster right now at this time
on the 1st of January 2023
that is currently my profession is making podcasts, yes.
Yes, exactly, yes.
That's what I take that as an answer.
And also the whole thing, that's the debate.
And that's what I kind of want to talk about
like this public speaking and speech
I'm thinking of doing in a market.
Public speaking group for seven minutes,
but some people, you know, the steam people,
sorry, I can't do any of my open source.
They just basically up so much of their free time
as a hobbyist, that's their big number,
that's what they do in their spare time,
not even getting paid for it.
And what people, I think what people overlook
is that people think, hey, you're not doing anything
that good in life unless you get in paid,
but that's like hang on a minute.
There's loads of open source contributions
that are absolutely amazing that people
doing from programming to contesting,
to translation, to documentation, to quality shorts.
And they're not getting paid,
but they think some really amazing things,
some great projects under the community now,
as an example, not just that,
but and I think that's the point I want to try and make
somewhere that people can do some really amazing things.
And open source is one way to do it,
that allows you to do whatever you want pretty much.
And you don't have to be paid, but saying that,
that are people getting paid as well doing things,
it's a bit of both.
I just like to put in here,
because I'm an open source maintainer in my spare time.
The software is the smallest part
of many open source projects.
And actually, the writing of the software
often is what you spend the least amount of time doing.
And you say, you can do what you want with it.
It's not really true.
At the moment, you start getting users.
They start to dictate how, not dictating like a,
dictatorship sort of way,
but they start to influence very heavily
how you build the software going forward.
And that can lead to you having to put a lot of time
into things you never really wanted to,
that you have no interest in,
you have to put a lot of time into research
and understanding and conversation.
So in that way, it's kind of similar to what Joe was saying,
where it's like a podcast is not just recording yourself
talking, there's a lot of behind the scene stuff.
And that's actually where the money tends to go.
So we've had, we've been very lucky in the past
who have had some funding.
And the vast majority of it seems to go on just
keeping the project managed.
Very little of it actually goes on the code that gets written.
It's the stuff around the code.
It's the talking to people.
It's the research.
It's the planning.
It's the sort of continued sort of conversations with people.
That's where it gets really expensive and challenging
in open source.
Yeah, I mean, I think marketing depends on the project,
obviously, again, but I do think marketing is an area
that a lot of projects will have proper struggle with,
or they will be harder to do.
But marketing is important or you're not going to get the users
and then who's going to be using this stuff anyway.
Yeah, marketing is an interesting, an interesting conundrum
for open source projects.
And particularly, I mean, we've had a particular problem recently,
of course, this whole Twitter debacle went on.
And people came over from Twitter to master on.
They're mastered on occupies a similar space to us.
We're both a Federer's projects.
And so we were really sort of excited
that people wouldn't come over to funquale, check it out.
But of course, because the software was kind of in a state
at the moment of in-betweenness, their first impression of it
was, I don't understand.
It's confusing, it's ugly, and all this stuff.
And so we actually ended up getting bad press
from people coming over in light of what happened at Twitter.
And that's a really challenging to do,
because we can't show them the results of all the work
that we've done until it's finished.
And that I think has actually a fate
a lot of open source projects sort of hit
is that they get attention at the wrong time.
And that can be just as bad as not getting attention at all.
Maybe I don't know if Master Don was ready to take on
loads of people like the servers, but suddenly
there's a massive influx as well, where one's going.
Anything that tech people would have done, Master Don, Master Don.
Well, yeah, and look at what's happening with Matrix.
I don't know if you've read the blog post about the, you know,
financial diastrates that they're in right now,
because, you know, they didn't, well, I don't know.
I'm not going to pass judgment on it.
They are a victim of their own success, let's say.
And also of the issue where companies
will use staff and not pay for it,
not contribute to it in any way, because it's free
and open source, so therefore it's free as in there.
Yeah, and I think that Matrix also suffered
from this problem of a lot of places use matrix
and use specifically element as it is.
Others, such as the German government,
have made their own clients and things like that.
But what they haven't done then is made things
that are useful to the project as a whole.
So while of course they are upstreaming,
they're not upstreaming anything of use,
because it's all just very specific stuff
that only the German government would want.
And that's part of the problem as well,
because that creates, it sounds, oh, like, you know,
it sounds helpful, the German government's picking it up,
they're going to, they're going to contribute code.
And of course they contribute,
but they contribute some useless stuff sometimes,
and that actually creates a lot more administrative overhead
for the upstream developers to sift through all of that,
and make sure they're not including stuff
that wouldn't be useful elsewhere.
So it's a real, I mean, if the German government
aren't paying for Matrix, that's appalling.
Right?
It wouldn't surprise me.
I've heard the Matrix, but then I've found it,
but what I was going to say is,
or it could be like, hey, picked or using minutes,
make movies great, although it turns out
they've got doing commercial program, I think.
That's another point.
What I was going to say is, well, it's obviously
with the software license, is if a company goes
and goes, hey, look, it's GPL code,
we'll just put that on a TV software,
or something, and that's found out about them.
Well, there's things like the software freedom controversy,
sorry, and the FSF, obviously, and the FSE as well.
And in the UK, there's an open UK that,
one of those organisations, they'll go to court over it,
potentially, like you've broken into GPL,
no, you need to put them at least your code.
You need to do stuff, you know what I mean, I'm sure.
Yeah, it's a real shame, because on a sort of personal
ethics level, I really like the idea of much more
permissive licenses, such as the MIT license
and the 2.0s BSD license, like those to me
are much cleaner licenses than the GPL.
But unfortunately, because of the problem
that Joe's highlighted, if you use those licenses,
you run the risk of people taking your work
and just not contributing back.
Sometimes you get lucky, in the example I would give there
is Netflix heavily uses FreeBSD for their caching,
and they are massive contributors back to the FreeBSD project,
which is wonderful.
And in their case, it makes financial sense,
because, you know, they upstream it,
and it's up to the FreeBSD maintainers
to maintain it from there.
But it's a positive, net positive.
They do a lot of improvements.
But the vast majority of things, if you do make them
with a permissive license, companies
will take advantage of that.
And that's why viral licensing, such as GPL, exists.
And it's a real question you have to ask yourself,
when you're starting a software project is,
do I want to make this under the license
that I think is my personal favor, which in my case is MIT,
or do I need to protect myself from future fevery?
And these kinds of decisions are difficult,
and they have long-lasting ramifications
for how your software goes.
So there's no easy answer to any of this.
I actually had a question, though, for Joe.
When you said you sell ads, I've not actually,
I don't listen to many podcasts, I've not come across it.
But is the format of that that you read ads
as part of the show?
Yes, so it's baked in host-read mid-rolls
in your jargon.
Yeah, so I sell ideally a bunch of ads,
but sometimes I've just single ones to companies.
And then, yeah, we agree, a 60-second script,
and then I do my advert, okay, this episode is sponsored.
I, this company, go to thiscompanies URL.com slash blah blah blah.
They're great, and you should check them out, and blah blah.
So that's this company.com slash LNL, or whatever.
So yeah, that's how I do it.
Yeah, I do direct sales.
I have things in the works with agencies,
but I've found that to be an immensely frustrating experience
here, though, but we'll see.
That's kind of why I want to talk to you about this properly,
like privately, and when I'm sorry.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how much I'll be,
but I'm happy to tell you what I know.
But I was just going to ask them for,
and I'm guessing the way that this is worked out,
and the way that it's, you know,
the sort of pain that comes out of this is worked out.
It's based on the number of people who head to the link
you specify, and that's how the payouts happen.
Well, I don't want to go too far into my corporate secrets,
as it were, but now it's based on the number of people
who regularly download, and what you get there is a CPM,
cost per million or cost per thousand.
So, I don't know, what's the simple thing?
10,000 people listening.
So your multiplier is 10.
So say you're going to charge them a million dollars
per thousand people who listen.
It is orders of magnitude less than that, obviously.
But let's say it's five dollars per thousand people
who listen, and you have 10,000 people listening,
on average, so therefore you charge them five times 10
is 50 dollars per advert.
Obviously those figures are not the real ones,
but so that's the sort of traditional baked in way,
my understanding of dynamically inserted ads is that
it's more a case of you agree a CPM,
and so say it's five dollars per thousand people,
and they say, right, well, our budget is
of what, five thousand dollars,
so therefore we will pay for a thousand impressions.
So it's more like the old school banner ads and text ads,
so they will dynamically insert into the first thousand
downloads their ad, and that can either be
programmatic, as they call it, which is read by
just some voice actor person in a studio somewhere,
or it can be host read,
when you get more money for the host read ones.
And so you just say in their platform,
you upload your MP3, and you say, right,
at 10 minutes and 45 seconds, here's the ad break.
And so they then dynamically insert a thousand of those
that people have paid, the first thousand people
that download that episode, they dynamically insert
the advert for this mattress company or whatever,
and then once a thousand done, that's it, and you get paid.
So it's sort of quite a different way of doing it,
to how I have traditionally done it,
which is we have X number of people downloading,
X number of thousands of people,
and so that multiplier, we will multiply by the CPM number,
which we will agree, which obviously depends
on the company you're dealing with,
and negotiation skills, et cetera.
And I've heard of CPM's lowest five dollars,
or as much as $150, and somewhere in between liars,
is most of the deals that I have done.
Let's just say.
Okay, now that's interesting.
I ask mostly because the project I work on,
we have rudimentary podcasting tools.
And as I mentioned cast apart, they are a direct,
I wouldn't say they're a competitor to us,
we're not competing really,
but they have done a lot of work around monetization,
and we are rather more hesitant to get
into the monetization side of things,
specifically around advertising.
We really don't want to have, like you say,
dynamic advertising be something that we offer.
However, something like host red advertising,
I'm trying to just, I didn't really understand
how it worked before this,
but it would explain why people find things
such as the viewership numbers,
or the listenership numbers, so important.
And it's just something for me to bear in mind
when we come to revisit podcasting as a feature set
that having better analytics is a super important way
of getting people, giving people more avenues
for payment than just the one that we prefer,
which is direct endorsement or direct donation.
Because, let me just say this,
let me just say this,
unless you have like a million plus downloads a year,
well, I don't know,
let's just say hundreds of thousands,
millions of downloads per year,
advertisers not interested these days,
generally speaking, is my understanding of the market right now.
Yeah, yeah.
And let me also say this,
that even in a situation where you've got an audience
that fully understands that the donation model
or pay what you can as elementary do,
they phrase that as pay what you can,
rather than pay what you want.
But anyway, basically the donation model,
you are never gonna crack more than a few percent of people
who are willing to pay for shit on the internet,
is my understanding and look,
if you find me someone who is cracked more than a few percent
and I want to go for beers with them
and pick their names on how the fuck they did that.
Yeah, and I totally agree.
And it's something that we've, like I say,
we've struggled with it, we've been looking into it
and we are mostly donation funded projects.
But there's a big difference between a project
and an individually created podcast
I think.
But that's why we like this idea of having,
let's say that if you give a value proposition to users
for using this platform,
I talked about Retributes and you say,
okay, let's say you gave five euros a month
and you just had that allocated and it spread
between your most listened podcasts randomly,
whichever ones you most listen to
or whatever ones you most interact with
or whatever it may be, or random, who knows.
I wonder if that's, and you know,
spread that across multiple users who might be willing to do it.
I wonder if that would start to sort of yield results
because at the moment we're seeing the problem
that I mentioned about Wales,
where you have a lot,
most people will not pay anything
and a few will pay thousands, you know.
Well, let me stop you right,
because what you're talking about exists, right?
What you're talking about exists
is podcasting 2.0.
And there are a whole bunch of new podcasts.
I think it's like new podcasting.com.
Yeah, those people do that
and certain other ones are stable.
It works, so you're correct.
I'm glad you found a piece of it that works for you too.
That's, that's,
effing awesome self-sensory, you're sorry.
Are we allowed to say fuck here?
Well, we are, but then Apple says you can't put
like a kid smiley face on it,
which I never thought should have been on it in the first place.
So fuck Apple then.
Just on the other hand, you know,
you might, something I say might be so,
effing brilliant, you want to play it for your kids.
So I watch out for that on my part.
Fair enough.
But anyway, so the,
the dream of podcasting 2.0 is genius.
It's exactly what you were just talking about.
It's the idea that everybody contributes a tiny bit,
you know, they decide right.
My budget for the month for the year is $5.10.
Hold on, $1,000, $1,000, whatever.
Hold on.
That's a very small part of podcasting 2.0.
The financial part of it is what everyone focuses on.
So it looks huge because it's under a lot of magnifying glasses.
It's just a wedge of the pie though.
That's literally what we've been talking about for the last time.
It's, it's monetizing things generally.
So yes,
but you said podcasting 2.0.
So I would hate for anyone who hasn't heard of podcasting 2.0
to think that everything we've talked about for the last hour
encapsulates podcasting 2.0.
Podcasting 2.0.
All right.
Well, let me cut to the chase then.
All right.
Let me cut to the chase then.
And the cut into the chase is 2 podcasting that podcasting 2.0
is tainted by crypto bullshit.
And so therefore I want nothing to do there because crypto
is Ponzi scheme bullshit.
I mean, if you want to agree, if you want to disagree with me,
I mean, we can.
Yes, I would disagree on this.
Can I have 10 seconds to disagree?
I mean, you can, but I'll probably take my headphones off.
No, no, I know I want to discuss it with you.
I would like to rebut a piece of what you just said,
not the entire thing in a reasonable way.
And if you think I'm being unreasonable,
I would appreciate that feedback as well.
Right.
Well, let me just say this crypto bullshit or not bullshit.
Are you saying that?
Are you asking that?
That's the question.
It's like a why slash and crypto is bullshit.
Why slash and underscore?
That wasn't my question.
Do I have to answer your question before you'll answer mine?
No.
Feel free to answer to ask me any question you'd like.
Okay.
And I will answer yours next.
If you still are interested in what I care,
you can cut that part out of podcasting 2.0.
You don't have to use that at all.
Right.
That wasn't that was a statement.
Are you aware that you can cut that out of podcasting 2.0?
And it's still a marvelous landscape without that included.
That was my question now.
Right.
So, right.
So my answer to that question is,
of course, I'm aware that the monetization aspect of podcasting 2.0
is one of the aspects of it.
And chat is new tags.
And it loads of other cool stuff.
Right.
Totally.
I'm totally aware of that.
So you think the rest of it?
No, let me see.
How does that get from you?
No, you can't.
You know, you don't put words in my mouth.
Right.
It's not cool because the rest of it was cool.
No, I said that there are aspects of it, which are cool.
Okay, not the rest of it.
Okay, but I'm sorry.
Correct.
Right.
I should not.
Thank you.
Right.
Just imagine this.
Right.
Just imagine the most delicious food that you can imagine.
Maybe that's a chocolate cake.
Maybe that's a delicious English breakfast fry up.
Maybe it's the most delicious Chinese pasta.
Right.
But just imagine you've cooked,
just whoever's listening right now,
just imagine you've cooked the perfect meal
or someone else has cooked it for you.
Maybe they're friends of yours.
Maybe you've paid whatever.
You are sitting down to the most delicious meal in the world.
Right.
It's better than anything else you've eaten.
Right.
However, on the same table,
there is a big plate of steaming shit.
And that is crypto.
And that has tainted the entire meal.
And crypto has tainted the entire podcasting 2.0.
And so that's it.
You can't just eat,
even if you take that plate of steaming shit out of the room,
it still stinks and you are not hungry anymore.
Joe wants delicious food.
Joe may I say out of love.
I'm saying this to you.
If the table's big enough and full enough,
it doesn't matter what somebody far enough away is doing.
It's, you know what I mean?
It hurts to shut people out.
I have no pain in shutting crypto bros out
because that shit is fucking bullshit,
scam, pyramid scheme,
Ponzi scheme shit that has no room
in anything that I'm willing to touch.
It's fucking bullshit and I can get fucked.
Yes, first time you said it.
Would you like to hear my answer since you asked me?
I agreed I would answer.
All right.
Let's hear it.
If you still care,
if you actually care,
if you're just challenging me,
don't then,
but if you care what I think about crypto,
then I will answer.
Yeah, I'd love to hear it.
What are you, what are you hardlin', my friend?
What are you hardlin'?
What am I hardlin'?
Hardlin, hurtlin', I miss that word.
Hardlin'.
It's crypto speaks for holding.
How much crypto do you have?
Oh, zero.
I don't care about crypto in the least.
That's funny,
so therefore less than I have,
because I've got 0.00 something of a Bitcoin
and like $700 coin.
No, I can give you a little negative.
It's, and I try to avoid it.
There is a little bit of negative crypto I like.
That's not true.
My IRC bros were telling me,
buy crypto, this buy Bitcoin,
this thing is so cool.
It's 11 cents,
and it's going to be worth something someday.
Even if it's worth a buck,
you're a friggin'
$100,000 air.
Buy it, buy it, buy it, buy it.
And I didn't buy any.
And that's my one regret regarding cryptocurrencies.
The rest, I don't give a shit.
That's my honest answer.
And I respectfully am giving you an answer
because I said I would if you answered my question
and you did.
And thank you, Joe.
I appreciate it.
I still have another question for the chat,
but it's an entire subject change.
Well, that's one of the reasons I stopped
listening to the Jupyter shows
because they seem to be so tight
into the crypto aspects
that it just really turns me on.
It's like their show doesn't exist without crypto.
And I used to love listening to those guys.
Yeah, I think I'm personally in agreement with Joe here.
Like we, as a project,
have fought so hard against crypto.
And we have put out public statements basically saying,
any suggestion of crypto,
you have to fork the project to do that.
We're not integrated with that.
But I need to go and do some reading up on podcasting 2.0
because I really don't understand the sort of spec of it.
And I wonder how many of the features you could lift
from podcast 2.0?
Because you can't lift all of them
because it looks like some of this is about sort of creating a registry.
But you could certainly lift some of the technical aspects
such as the chapter marking and stuff like that.
So you don't need to lift it.
You don't need to lift it.
That shit exists already outside of focusing 2.0.
The whole thing is just intimately tied in with crypto bullshit.
And it can just get fucked.
Yeah, hold on, Joe.
That's super interesting before he's read it.
Soporif, when you're done reading this,
you said you're going to check up on it.
Will you please come on our podcast on your random
and help us with it?
Taj has read into it and he loved it,
except for the money part.
And he couldn't stand listening to it.
Oh, Taj is here.
Taj, I don't mean to speak for you.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, I'm looking at this, you know,
from the perspective of we need to go back
into look at podcasting again.
I just want I want to go in and understand.
Because we have rude, like I said,
rudimentary podcast support.
We don't have things like chapter markers and that kind of thing.
Chapter markers are awesome.
Album art is awesome.
Chapter art is unfrigen, believable.
So your first thing is different in Taj's.
But that's why it's interesting to me.
And that's why I'd love if you come on our podcast.
Now I will shut up and let you say we don't wish.
I was just going to say like for me,
I would agree the biggest contention
and we read through cast-apods,
list of features and, you know,
we've suggested cast-apods people who want some of those more,
you know, advanced features,
but we've really put off by the crypto stuff.
And that's why we don't really recommend recommended too much
anymore.
It's still a step in the right direction in some ways.
If you're moving away from like Spotify,
it's your other option for publishing.
And you say, actually, I'll go with cast-apod.
In my opinion, that's a good move.
But I agree, I'm in agreement with,
with a thing about cryptocurrency.
But that value for value thing that I'm looking at,
that's something that you could do,
like I say, with a traditional
payment system backing thing.
Where you basically just have this.
But no one's interested.
No one's interested.
That's the problem.
No one should do it in theory.
You could do it.
No one wants to pay for shit.
That's free on the internet.
Except for people who get wrong.
You're wrong.
Okay.
No, we do exist.
We're not interested.
We're not interested.
And he's not looking for a statistic majority.
He's looking for enough to get by.
Or maybe not even him somebody.
They're looking for a server cost.
Because they can't afford a server.
And maybe I'm the only guy that pays and it supports it.
Or maybe I just throw into the bucket
so that the guy who's given it to me doesn't have to give me ads
or whatever other reason.
It's not where this was going.
Right, right.
We do exist.
My point is we do exist.
No, no, no, right.
Yes.
If I pay for the thing,
you mean literally pay for the
infrastructure costs of, you know,
a $5 VPS and maybe a $20
lifts an account or whatever it is.
Yes.
At my day job, I build the internet.
Yes.
I do that too.
On my personal time.
And this is what he's talking about.
Can you let him finish?
No, because what I'm getting at here is right.
No, you can't.
No, no, because the problem is that we don't,
we have not established what paying for something means.
Right.
You can pay for the practical infrastructure aspects of things.
And the time that we have with the words
allotted to us with the amount of people we have.
That's way too big a topic.
Come on.
I think that I think that I get what it's being said here.
Basically, when you're, when I'm,
what I'm talking about is essentially donations in kind.
Essentially, you know, give,
put money into a pot and have that be distributed.
But that doesn't give you a certain thing.
You're not actually purchasing something.
Whereas if you subscribe to a podcast on safe,
sub stack or, you know, Patreon,
you do get something.
You get an advert free thing or maybe you get some premium
episodes that you don't get elsewhere.
So I do get that.
And yeah, that's, that's certainly something that, you know,
I don't think we have a solution to our solution is more about.
For those people who are sort of, you know,
there's sort of people who help pay for a master
on server that they use,
those generous people who might be willing to, you know,
basically distribute some money between the content
that they listen to that be that music or podcast.
But I great.
That wouldn't be enough to make a living off of.
And that's why I was asking you, actually, Joe, about the,
how do, like, the, how do your ad reads work?
Because, you know, we need to think about other ways
that we can help with that kind of thing.
How do you work with it?
We're very much for ad reads,
because I wasn't sure how the, how the sort of payouts
for ad reads work, how the, you know,
how the actual setup works.
But.
No, I guess.
You put the little and I missed what you said.
Thank you.
Yeah, sorry.
But we're a platform for hobbyists at the end of the day,
when it comes to podcasts, we're much more about music,
and there's a different challenge to selling music,
and there is to, to making money off of podcasts,
because again, music, you get a deliverable,
whereas with, you know,
and we have to think about that,
because we don't really want to put paywalls in front of music either.
But, you know,
there's a,
there's a,
no, no, no,
when we interject the point real quick,
with music,
it is so deliverable.
I have anticipation on my way to the internet to go by music.
It's, it's really deliverable.
Hang on.
So you tell me that music is difficult, right?
So let's say,
ACDC pins out a new album.
It, right?
So in a way that,
it's deliverable in a way that podcasting hasn't figured out yet.
Podcasting is absolutely that deliverable.
We just haven't figured it out yet.
No.
I think the difference is,
and it's historical.
I think the difference is largely historical.
Like you say,
you have anticipation of buying the new album from ACDC,
and that's great.
Whereas podcasts have historically always been essentially free access
through easily accessible software using a standard RSS feed.
And so people being, you know,
they're like,
I can get podcasts for free.
And then suddenly,
the idea that they might have to pay for them,
they find that difficult.
Whereas music,
they've always paid for it.
That's baked in.
It's called growing up.
Well, let, let, let me get a little bit political here, right?
Podcasts are free at the point of service.
That doesn't mean they're free,
because someone's got to pay for it.
And, uh,
this sounds something that we,
yeah.
Joe, Joe,
it sounds a lot better than I said it.
Joe, you're preaching to the choir.
We all understand you don't need to,
to say it as if we disagree with you.
We get that.
We're, we're on the same,
we're all on the same page at this point,
and it sounds aggressive.
To me,
maybe I'm just hearing it wrong.
And if so,
well, it just, it seems to me that you've,
you've got a bunch of people who are happy to make podcasts
as a hobby, right?
Which is totally cool, like great.
And, you know, they want to make a few bucks out of it
to sort of kind of cover their expenses
and maybe even cover their time.
But, you know,
if you're spending, you know,
say two hours every couple of weeks
to get together with some friends record it
and, you know,
like maybe do a little bit in audacity
and then export it,
upload it somewhere and publish it.
And, you know, that's,
you know, you may be making a couple of hundred bucks a month
or, you know,
you're bringing in a couple of hundred bucks a month.
That's covering your hosting costs
and it's paying everyone a beer money,
whatever.
That's cool, right?
But that's just not what I'm trying to do here.
I'm trying to do this as a living.
And it's, it's just a different situation.
And it's, it's very hard
in the Linux love and source world
to make people understand that.
And you can't,
and this applies to
Ubisoft's projects as well.
It's got certain projects
that haven't been updated for years and years and years.
Right?
Because, Joe,
okay.
You sound really guilty,
but what you're saying doesn't sound worthy of guilt.
There's no guilt.
No, it's perfectly reasonable.
I mean, you've been reasonable.
It is reasonable.
You want to keep.
And, yes, I, yes.
Actually, open source.
Yes, I wasn't trying to say something to me.
Now, I'm trying to say that like you sound, it's,
oh, it's guilt.
Yes.
I don't believe in guilt.
Defensive.
Maybe defensive is the way.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, defensive.
I don't understand.
But then the difference there is that I would,
you're among, I mean,
I know you don't get along with,
is that,
you have to go back to the pronunciation.
I know you'll get along with them.
It's pronounced.
It's pronounced.
It's pronounced.
Okay.
Okay.
I, I understand you don't get along with them.
He still sounds like your friend.
There's a difference of opinion.
That's about it.
I don't have a problem with your model, Joe.
I know you need to make money.
I don't have a problem with that.
I just don't think that because I advertise one of my podcasts
as being no ads, no BS,
it doesn't mean I'm calling your product bad.
It just means I'm calling my product what it is.
Okay.
So no, no ads is in one circle,
and no BS is in another.
And Joe, you don't fall within the Zen overlap.
He never, he never meant to intend that you did.
If anybody listening to this thinks that no ads and no BS
is not an attack on people who have ads in their shows,
then good luck.
Good luck with critical thinking and the rest of it.
Come to my house.
No, listen, listen to me.
Come to my house, my fucking house, my Telegram Group
and advertise your podcast as having no ads and no BS
gets you banned from my Telegram Group.
So I said it in the wrong place.
No, no, no. He said it in the wrong place
and then we have a private conversation about it
and then he doubled down on it and he can get fucked.
Okay, okay.
And all of you can get fucked because I'm just done with this.
He don't tell me to get fucked.
I'm trying to understand you and I...
All right.
That's my arrest for the night.
Dude, you said it in the wrong place.
You shouldn't have doubled down.
I did the same thing myself.
He was asking people to advertise their podcasts on his show.
My podcast, I was not saying anything about his podcast
being bad or wrong in any way.
I was just saying my podcast has no ads, no BS.
It's a less than 10 minute podcast of the week's Linux
and open source news.
I don't have time to give long explanation.
I took that first one.
I was very angry and also happened to be in a deads on there.
Sorry.
Fucking 3G sucks.
It's not even 4G here.
Sorry.
I may be breaking up.
Sorry.
I didn't really say that.
I just...
That was shitty timing.
Sorry about that.
At the first time.
The end of the interview.
Thanks, dude.
Hey.
Okay, okay.
May I for just a moment?
I'm wicked drunk.
I need to say I love you guys.
I love this conversation.
I understand.
Damn it.
What does it move, spell it?
Moss.
Moss, M-O-S-S.
Yes.
Okay, Moss.
You made a great point.
You did it in the wrong place.
He let you know it was not in the wrong place.
And instead of saying sorry, you know,
next time I'll try to do it better, you're doubled down.
I've done the same thing.
I don't...
I didn't like it.
You're doubled down.
I feel like he just went on slamming me.
It doesn't matter what you think about what you think.
It doesn't matter what you think about what you think.
Let's just leave it at that and move on from there.
Yeah, he thinks you doubled down.
Whether or not you meant to.
He's not questioning your intention.
You doubled down in the wrong place.
And he was just saying it was not the right place to do it.
If we can agree that it was the wrong place.
I totally agree with the point that you made.
It's what we've all been talking about all night.
He's even saying the same damn thing.
It was just the wrong...
It was the wrong way to say it in the wrong place.
Thank you.
Exactly.
Yes.
Thank you for summing it up.
Brilliant.
Who?
Me?
Yes, you.
I just summed up your summary.
No, that's all.
The both of you summed it up between you.
Brilliantly, yes.
It was the wrong thing to say in the wrong place.
And in a different venue could have been much better handled.
And like this is definitely not the right venue for that.
For this whole thing, either.
So I'm in the right frame of mind for this.
No, no.
I'm sorry for bringing it up as well.
Cool.
See, now I think we're in the right frame of mind.
Maybe Joe and I hit it off.
We're in the right frame of mind for team building and for love.
And for sharing love for one another.
Bridge building, excuse me.
That's, we're in the right frame of mind.
I am.
Joe, what about you?
Sure.
Other Joe.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, you are a brilliant talking diplomat.
It's all I could say.
Here here, Joe.
Here's a joke.
Are you open to working?
Are you open to working for the British government?
We need some.
We really, really do.
Can you please like talk to Europe and fix that whole situation?
Because we need a good diplomat like you.
With which whole situation?
All of them.
Please.
Yes.
Nothing specific.
No.
Is it the cabbage situation?
I thought that was already handled.
That's the one.
It's a lettuce.
And yeah, it's a big.
Oh, the lettuce.
Oh, my favorite one was the flitching episode in Holland.
So you all want to know what I just finished up?
As long as it changes the subject.
AK-74 short barrel will pistol technically in a 556.
Cool.
Those are ridiculous.
Which 556?
Well, let's take the same ammo as what the M16 M4?
Yes.
Yes.
That's what 556 is.
223 is.
556 is a federal NATO round.
And 556 will not go into a 223.
But 223 will fall into a 556 just fine.
Cool.
But it's still a ridiculous weapon.
And I wouldn't have made the same.
It's a pistol using a rifle round.
Yeah.
Correct.
And a rifle.
Well, it's short barrel, though.
That's the only advantage short barrel.
Which makes it just twice as hard to control.
It negates all the advantages.
Oh, you're saying the M16 is better than the M4?
Because it's got a longer barrel?
No.
No, I'm saying a rifle round without a shoulder stock
is very difficult to control.
Ah, OK.
I mean, I can hold a 1-inch group at 50 yards.
Oh, like...
So there's some on the top of a cylinder block wall?
Because that's the only place where you would want to use that weapon.
Or are you standing still?
Hold it, stand it up and fire it.
Sorry, that's right.
But just...
This is standing up and holding it.
Sorry, I'm trying to break in here with just the worst mobile connection ever.
So sorry, I think I'm going to have to drop out
because it's just dropping out all the time and packing it last and everything.
I've just got the worst.
I think everyone's just on their phones because this new year's eve or whatever,
even though I'm in London.
No.
Yeah, it was great short barrel.
We can do that for a base.
OK, well, it's kind of dropping in our...
I'll keep listening for a bit, but...
Yeah, it was great short barrel and...
Yeah, it's pretty true.
I guess next year.
Joe, one last thing.
If you...
If we don't speak again, I still have my question for you that I posted in the chat.
It doesn't have to be here, but I got a question for you.
Sorry, I'm not like...
It's...
This mobile client plumble of asteroid isn't great for that sort of thing.
What...
What was the question, uh, briefly?
You just answered it, actually.
Ah, was it what client I'm using?
Yes, thank you.
Yeah, plumble, sorry.
Yeah, it's...
The client is great, but just my connection is terrible tonight.
Usually it's great out here, but...
The number of cars and everything.
It's...
It's not the client, it's my connection.
I know.
I've had problems all night.
It's just a very busy night for London, so...
What are you...
What are you using for...
Yeah.
We are...
We are...
We are...
Someone needs to do a new year announcement.
Why don't we all do it?
Three...
Two...
One...
Happy New Year!
Happy New Year!
Happy New Year!
I have the time zones up.
Nobody?
It's still in the middle of the Atlantic.
It's still in the middle of the Atlantic.
I know, somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic.
Next hour will be at Atlantic Time, which is New Brunswick and...
And Newfoundland.
And the hour after that is Eastern Time, US.
That's actually the...
Anyway, somewhere is...
Yeah, it doesn't take my beep as ill of now, actually.
And then I think it's Newfoundland in half an hour, isn't it?
Yeah, but that's at least an hour from now.
No, no, the Newfoundland.
Yeah, nofoundland in half an hour.
Huh, what time zone.
Yeah...
Oh!
They're so cool and weird.
And then New Farm.
And then, New Huntswick and Nova Scotia
are in one hour.
Well, I completely flood her announcingielenlescore
because...
For some reason, I thought there was...
FROM LOWERS.
Yeah, I thought there was a later on this.
Oh, I thought you just...
I'm just wondering.
nope, I mean, the same till now, I am this rally
and still, 2200 here.
I mean, I thought you just...
...missed her now because you were too sober.
I mean, I'm dead sober because like I've just been working on a weapon and I don't do that drunk.
Oh yeah, that makes sense.
Actually, that's not just that's best policy, that is the best practice.
It's going to be real hard to improve on that one, folks.
Improved on, yeah.
But once again, mention Iowa, where the state sport is drinking and driving,
but you know, the hobby on the side of that is taking your rifle with you and hunting from out the window.
Wow, both of those things suck.
You know what's awesome up in this neck of the woods, what we do is get drunk in the front yard,
and when red necks go flying by, like doing jumps on your street, you go woo, woo, woo, woo,
and the 12 year old race is a Miller light, etchah.
Yeah, but it seems logical.
You know what's fun here is the local cops getting drunk and smashing up their cars.
Oh, they're El Camino, those cops got El Camino's.
Why would you smash up an El Camino?
They'll have El Camino's here.
Yes, and pirate, yes, and they're driving on and fucking Ford, uh, shit, explorers.
Anyways, that we were about to pistol you made.
Oh, well, it's, uh, shoulders receiver, uh, WPP polling parts, uh, what is it now?
What is a shoulders receiver?
What is this receiver better than a stamp steel one that collationic of
shadow on his work?
Oh, it's, it is a stamped steel one.
It's just, uh, you know, it's just, it's just has a nice made in USA on it,
so it's easier to deal with regulations.
Did the main USA get stamped into the receiver when the receiver was stamped,
or is it like laser cut?
Well, uh, the, it is my understanding that the basic stamping was done in Poland
as a flat, and then it was shaped here, and then this dude named,
there's place called shoulders.
Like, they're, they're places in general and making USA.
Anyway, well, it's like, you know, anything else, like if you do the final
finishing steps in the USA, the net counts as made in the USA.
You put, so that about half the city buses in America are made in Canada,
they just do the finishing work in Buffalo.
Yeah, it's like, you do bolt the, no, you bolt the rolls on in Buffalo,
and you get to stamp made in USA on it.
No, that doesn't work for someone named pirate.
You said you bought it because it says it's the laser at made in USA on it.
I asked you what the advantage of it was over the one that
Kalashnikov shed out on his birthday.
No, it's basically a clone.
And because he shed out on his birthday, someone should go edit Wikipedia,
and then it will become true as long as they reference us.
I thought everything in Wikipedia was true.
That's what I just said.
So Louis, Louis, you got to learn to agree with people better.
Boss.
Boss, how have you managed to get his name wrong?
Every single time because he spelled it phonetically,
and it was not an M or an O or an O or an S.
It's the same thing as Moss.
It's just in Sanskrit.
So honestly, you didn't know how to pronounce it myself.
All right.
Full handle is Zivalananda, which means Moss Bliss.
I'm changing my answer.
I manage to get it wrong every time because I'm an idiot.
Final answer.
Well, you sound like you want to relate to it.
I try to be nice idiot.
Do I know what what means?
Sport.
No, but I'd like to.
It means absolutely nothing.
I made it up.
You know what Joe means?
Coffee.
No.
Coffee, yeah.
Well, it also means a GI, a American soldier.
Well, I've been that too.
But no, it actually means.
He has Zivalananda.
Zivalananda.
I, you got walk-to-and-show.
Can you say anything else?
I'm sorry.
It, Joe, means gift from God.
Oh, yeah.
Right on.
My son's name is Jacob.
Yeah.
My name is, my first name is actually Kiron,
which is an Irish name, meaning the little dark one.
But I'm 181 centimeters tall and blonde,
so I don't know what's happening there.
Well, careful that it eats your heart.
Just don't look, you know.
So you put one eye open.
That's okay.
I've got my daughter, Tala, here.
And her name means little wolf.
What is that in real inches?
It's six foot one inch.
Oh, not bad.
Means what?
Fucking talking wolf.
Okay.
I got it wrong.
Oh, two socks.
Like from the answers to wolves.
Oh, hold on.
You can talk to Tala for a second.
I'm going to lift some heavy things.
Hold on.
Joe does a lot of weight lifting.
Oh.
Hey, Tala.
Joe said that you're shorter because he named you Tala.
And he's sorry.
He's a liar.
He wouldn't turn sorry for that.
Hi, Tala.
It's Moss.
You know me from the other podcast.
Hi, Moss.
It's a pleasure to hear you.
Thank you.
Good to hear you too.
You're the cleverest kid I've talked to all day.
Thank you.
I'll be it.
I'm an adult now, so I'm big.
Well, for your age, I meant for you.
I talked to a eight-year-old who was just brilliant all.
So for your age, then.
Thank you, sir.
So what kind of lies has my father been telling you?
I've got three stuff out here.
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, we're not going to give.
We're not going to give that up on, Joe.
He said software shouldn't be free with a capital F.
He said only with a lowercase F.
Repeat that.
He said that software should.
All right.
He said that software should only be free with a lowercase F,
but never with a capital F.
Yeah, he said,
he makes stuff even less than Windows.
You make even less than when you understand it.
He spelled Windows without a Z.
That was the lie he told.
What a horrible person.
Well, no, wait.
No, we have to give him.
Hey, your father, you've got to forgive him.
No, he's on the path.
I don't know.
He's on the path.
We're working with him.
Even if you don't forgive him now,
just at least wait till we're done with him.
Well, right now he's just on the weight bench,
which is not quite the path to redemption.
I don't know.
He's pretty enough to get away with it.
You don't want to be on the weight bench if Moss is your spotter.
He is not.
We'll say physically reliable for that situation.
I'm too old for that.
They're slandering you.
No, I'm too old for it too.
You don't want me to be there neither.
No, I'm blessed.
This guy's a sweetheart.
It's only slander if it's a lie.
Have I heard your voice before?
My dear.
Uh, probably.
I tend to try and interrupt his peacetime,
which is mostly when he talks to you.
Would you, would you be the not tall person?
Yes, I am the rather short person with the tall name.
Yes, that's what she's named.
Talia, so she got short.
Okay, then he owes you an apology.
How about that?
I will, we'll just call you shorty.
I have been, I have been delighted by hearing.
I believe Joe or somebody cut out a recording of your voice
and gave it to me some years ago.
Unfortunately, it's not on the system.
Oh, you're talking about my sister.
The one where it's the I am short.
It's hard to keep crack of all the beauties in your family, you know.
Oh, you're going to make me plush.
That was the idea.
Did he give you a spoiler?
I did.
Did he give you a spoiler?
I'm both I rhyme names.
I am a preemptively.
I'm on the East Coast, so I think we're at a safe distance
for platonic relationship.
I feel like that works.
I think my dad might, you know, get a little angry
of any other way.
He's like, as long as there are two states away.
Yo, net minor, East Coast is all on the same
tectonic plate, so those platonic
relationships are still really, really like
self-recruinating when dads are looking at it.
But Joe's in Texas, that doesn't count.
Yeah, sorry.
Texas is like a cryptid.
We're stuck here.
No, so that's cool.
So there's at least a couple of times
in the divide of behaviorism.
So the thing to do is to move up to Seattle and join the
gay, greater Pacific Northwest molecule.
But no, but Seattle.
No, it's so pretty.
I'm not planning.
And glue me in Seattle all the time.
If the weather was nice, I'd get it.
But seriously, that's the hill you want to die on.
I mean, especially the people who were
that keep talking about how nice it is
that I'm going, it's right next to Seattle.
It can't be that nice.
Well, but it is sometimes I've seen pictures.
Well, yeah, that's the half a year.
It's gorgeous.
Vancouver, at least, is sane.
Seattle is questionable.
Well, instead of, instead of bashing on places,
who's got any more funny name stuff?
Well, we have called my sister a fair few funny names.
I like to share them.
One of them was pooped Prince of Contents.
So, hey, that was mine.
She stole that.
I guarantee you I'm older than her.
Don't try her.
She'll time travel and fight you for it.
I know.
If you want to active time travel scalability
in the offers, winning position.
You always.
If you want to always have to let the villain think they're winning.
If you want a funny name, I went to school with a guy
called Adam Schittler.
No, I'm not joking.
At least it wasn't Adolf.
Oh, I thought it was about it.
I'm sure.
I'm sure his dad was sat there with the baby.
No, I'm just going, please.
And his mom was like, no, please.
No, it's fine.
Adam then.
No, wait a minute.
What about at on the altar?
Like, hey, baby, I know we have a proud long Schittler
history up hold here.
But can we at least hyphenate like pineapple hyphen
Schittler can be something.
Adam pineapple Schittler.
OK, the first of your name Schittler
shall and just like you wanted this.
I want the enterprise level.
I don't want the O'Connell box one of those.
I want the enterprise.
I thought the enterprise was in dry dock to me threads.
No, sorry.
I'm talking to my dad.
I couldn't hear you for a second.
We're sorry you're talking to your dad too,
but we understand.
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