hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr0484.txt

Episode: 484
Title: HPR0484: Her PR Problem
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0484/hpr0484.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-07 21:30:20

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So I was not technical on first-generation college, I got my first computer when I graduated from college, I got a typewriter when I graduated from high school.
So I really entered the field in a very strange way and my first job in editorial was at CISADM and magazine.
They talk about getting thrown in the deep end.
And I still remember one of the first articles I ever edited walking into my editor-in-chief's office and saying,
work a child process, are they kidding? I had never heard that before, you know, and I just thought that was the weirdest thing to see in writing.
And that was a long time ago, about almost three years ago, I started working at Linux Pro magazine.
And at the time I was also putting myself through grad school, so I was working full-time as a single mother and my colleagues.
And I started talking a lot more about women and open source and technology.
And that's kind of the perspective I have the background on it, going into it.
First thing I'll go over is I'm getting outside of your comfort zone.
I went to Atlanta Linux for us this week, and then LinuxCon, and then here.
And at LinuxCon, I had a conversation of a practice with Brian Profitt, who is the community manager for the Linux Foundation.
And he said, we weren't even talking about women and open source learning.
He just said, do you think being a woman and open source would tell you back in your career?
And I immediately said, no, the two things that have helped me back in my career is the first company I worked out was a dead-end job.
It wasn't because I was a woman. It was everyone I used to work with is laid off or at a different company at this point.
And the other thing is my personal decisions, or lack of decisions, have helped me back in my career.
And I really think that looking at it that way and making sure that you aren't the person holding you back, it's going to help.
Because I see a lot of people, and some of them are right, I'm sure, you know, I'm blaming other people in our fields for holding them back.
And for my perspective, they could be making other decisions, you know.
I got to know I was making this money because I didn't know how to negotiate for more, you know.
And there are certain things that you do have control over, and I want to make sure that people realize that they do have a certain level of control over their careers, you know, that maybe they don't recognize.
I've had, but I'm pasta syndrome too, because that was something that was new to me, and I've realized now that a lot of men experience, not just women.
And the difference between being aggressive versus assertive huge difference, a lot of subtleties involved though, and then how to network by helping your colleagues promote themselves.
And then why you might want to try promoting yourself better too.
All right, so I realized I was in a rut a long time ago, and I realized one of the reasons I was in a rut was because I had gotten way too comfortable, and nobody was coming along and recognizing how great I was and making me great offers.
And I was going to have to go out and get my own offers.
So one thing I looked at is, let's say public speaking, for example, is something that I wanted to do, and I was uncomfortable doing, and I realized that the only way I was going to get comfortable at doing it is if I made myself to it.
And they had open auditions and Lawrence Kansas for a production of the vagina monologues at the University of Kansas.
And I hadn't thought about acting or being on stage or anything, but I saw it, and I saw I wish I was kind of personally wasn't afraid to go get on stage and done a monologues, because I'd heard about it, and I thought it was cool production.
And then hearing myself say, I wish I was that kind of person, made me want to be that kind of person.
And so I forced myself to go audition by myself, and nobody went with me, and it was quite terrifying, because I wasn't a college student.
And I go to campus and met her auditions, and I know anything about play.
And so I auditioned, and I got the role.
And so I got the role, and I ended up playing the role of the woman who loves to make the vagina happy for three years in the production at KU.
And so when I went and wanted to speak at events, I had that, and you know, looked back on that, and I was wondering why am I afraid to speak in a room full of 30 people about stuff I'm passionate about, and that I've talked about in private conversations many times.
And I realized I had a fear of getting up in front of an audience, and it's something I still work on, I'm uncomfortable with it.
But then I was able to look back and remind myself that I'd been on stage in front of 600 people playing the role of the woman who loves to make the vagina happy, and my dad was in the audience.
And I should be able to get in front of a room full of 100 people, and not say the D word, and be more comfortable than I was under those circumstances.
So that was an example of how getting out of my comfort zone has helped me personally and professionally.
You don't have to go do something quite that dramatic, but you might want to think of other ways that you can push yourself a little bit more to get what you want.
The imposter syndrome played a big part in this too, I didn't feel like I had that expertise to get up in front of talk to people on, and I've actually been doing this for a really long time.
I've been in this field for about 12 years, and so I was in grad school, and I've just gotten this new job at Linux Pro, and they were opening their North American office in downtown Lawrence, and I was getting tons of responsibility since me out of Munich, our parent company.
And so I was having dinner with a colleague, a fellow student, actually, and I was telling her how nobody realized that I didn't know what I was doing at the company, and that they'd given me all this responsibility, and I was completely clueless, and I just couldn't believe they all thought I knew what I was doing, and she was like, yeah, it's called the imposter syndrome.
She said, I had it too, and I'd never heard of it before. Has anyone else heard of it? Maybe I'll have it.
So I started talking about it with people I work with, and I found out it's pretty common.
The term was first coined in the 70s by some academics, it's very common, and in universities, professors tend to have it.
Women, in particular, men have it too. And the imposter's can attribute all of their success to lag, like I was speaking, I got really lucky to get this new job, and you contribute successes of other people to scale.
In hindsight, I deserve that job. I will own it now. It's still something I have to remind myself, but I really felt like I got it because I got a break.
The other thing is imposter's are less likely to work out for fear of being exposed.
In our field, that can be really, especially intimidating, because we have a lot of really outspoken, dominant personalities in our field, and we have a good chunk of people who don't care if you like them or not.
And so they will go ahead and say things in not different ways than terms, maybe lacking old social skills.
So it can be especially hard in our field to put yourself out there, because people will tell you if it's stupid, or dumb code, or whatever.
It's also not about self-esteem. I don't think I have a low self-esteem, and I know a lot of other women who I've been very shocked to print my ZPHD imposter syndrome, and it's not about self-esteem.
It's about being a perfectionist, if anything, and being exceptionally self-critical.
So what do you do about it? I recognize you're not alone. It's really helped me to talk to people and network with people, and to find out which is really surprised at how many people in our field till the same way and outside of our field.
So it's okay to talk about it. You'll be really surprised at how many people will mod and say they feel the same way.
And also you have to remind yourself that you can't be good at everything. I had somebody tell me to do the day.
Ricky, I love you. You're good at lots of things, but giving directions is not one of them. And I was like, yeah, okay, I'll let that one be your thing. I'm not good at.
Refrain failure is a learning opportunity. I was an editor for quite a few years now, and so if I have a typo, it's really kind of traumatic being.
And I know a lot of people don't fill that way, but I send an email out to about 600 people one time, and I had a typo in it.
And one person responded, and a real snarky comment, oh, managing editor, huh? You know, nice spelling.
And I was so upset about it. I literally had a nightmare about it that night. And then I decided to remind myself, because this is overreacting.
It was one letter off. However, I was like, well, I'll never sell that word wrong again. And so that was a learning opportunity for me.
Okay, being assertive versus aggressive.
My mother was telling somebody that the women in our family have a hard time. A being assertive without coming off as aggressive.
And I didn't know she meant that I've been told over the years that I'm intimidating. I've heard that quite a few times.
And there are mannerisms that are subtle, you know, and the way you say things, you know, and I personally have to work on that.
And so I'll give you some tips on that. I'll give you an example from this week, from an event I was at.
But this, I'm sure you've seen this happen in many other situations. We'll say you're in a situation and somebody says something that you think is sexist.
Or you hear that somebody said something that they thought was sexist, or racist, or ages, or whatever.
There are many, many ways you can handle it. For example, you could call the person or shoot them in email and say, you know, friend tell me that you said this.
And I just want to talk to you about it. And what you said, and this is what you meant. And this is how I mean my friends feel.
And they're a way that, you know, maybe it could have been handled differently. And people would have felt differently.
And you could have had the actual meaning you meant. That's not what you meant.
Or you can send an email saying, I heard you said this. I cannot believe you'd be so insensitive. You should know better of all people.
I demand a public apology now. And then you reprint, you know, your demand for a public apology online.
And regular updates on whether or not you get this public apology.
So which reaction are you more likely to want to deal with? I mean, which person do you want to make happy?
The person who addressed you directly and saying, this is an issue, you know, how could we resolve it?
What would be a better way to handle it? Or the person who comes out immediately on the tag, you know, out in public.
Didn't give you an opportunity to talk. I mean, it's a much different way of handling it.
Ultimately, you're trying to get some results, I think, which is, let's not say things that are hurtful to begin with.
Whether or not we need to say them, you know, but there's definitely a different way to approach it.
So women tend to have issues being a sort of, I imagine most women here have gotten their tongues when people have said things that were insensitive.
Or for example, I sat in the cubicle for a long time and there were a lot of empty offices in her office space.
And I couldn't understand that. And finally, I went and I talked to our HR person.
So my female colleagues and I went without offices for quite a while. And finally, I went and I talked and I said, I don't, I think that we're not part of the boys club.
And that's why we're not getting these offices. And she's like, no, no, you know, people in editorial roles don't get offices.
And I said, well, neither does marketing. And that guy has an office. And next week, we all got moved into offices.
Now, if I would have skipped, you know, that process and just, you know, called our supervisors and said, you know, my, my people are getting held down.
And the guys get offices and we're all out here. I don't know if I would have gotten an office that would have created a lot of bad blood.
But instead, just going directly and asserting myself and saying, you know, come on, they're empty, give us an office. We all got offices.
So this thing I noticed is women. And I'm generalizing here. Not all of them do this. I personally have done this.
We plug along and do a lot of good work and we expect that people are going to notice it. And we're going to get recognized and get promoted or get erased and get, you know,
acknowledgment and credit for what we've done. And that's not really how it works in the real world.
You sometimes have to go ahead and make sure people notice what you're doing because everyone's busy doing their own thing.
And if you're not pointing out, you know, your accomplishments and the business world is very likely people aren't going to notice them.
Okay. So here's some tips for being assertive and you're having issues with this.
You can state your point briefly and clearly. You don't have to make it a big long drawn out essay, an email or whatever.
You can be concise. A assertive speech is good. It's positive. It's like what you were talking about.
I mean, it fosters an ongoing conversation instead of shutting it down. Aggressive speech can completely shut a conversation down.
You know, you just came and attacked me for something I said. And so I'm not feeling like I want to make you happy now because you attacked me, you know.
And so that's aggressive. Aggressive is tone, voice level, you know, body language, all of it.
Down in Bears colleagues are my personal tax. I see this a lot and I've been in this field for a while and I really like it.
I think it's a good positive environment. And I, it stresses me out in a whole lot of other people when we see all the insighting that can happen because it is kind of a tight knit community, you know.
And people who are in it for a long time move around quite a bit. And so the person you're really mad at and call these horrible names, you might actually be working with later.
And that's good to think when, you know, you're going in on into this. Even with a magazine, you know, people jump around from magazine to magazine.
You know, authors, you know, editors. And so it's really important to maintain good relationships. And you don't have to feel confident when you go and assert yourself.
You just have to appear that way. That's where also being brief and clear will help you appear confident in school.
So maybe you think you're already being assertive and no one's listening to you. Maybe it's not you. Maybe it's them. That was my experience at my former company.
I had been assertive. I had, you know, I got that office finally. And I really worked on this stuff for quite a few years. And I realized at one point, it's not me. It's you.
This is the wrong company for me. You don't recognize contributions. It's not just me. It's not because I'm a woman. You're ignoring a whole lot of other employees.
And I can't change an international company, but I can change my job, you know. And so for me, I realized I needed a different environment.
I worked for an international company now. A parent company is German. We're located in my office is located in Kansas in the Midwest.
And the way people communicate in Kansas versus the way they communicate in Germany is very different. And I've helped people. I was prepared for that because I'd worked with New Yorkers before.
And I was and I also come from very fantastic family. I'm considered incredibly sarcastic by Kansas standards, but I fit right in by German standards, you know.
And I really liked it. My German colleague, when I wasn't speaking up when I first got this job, I wouldn't speak up in conference calls there after my opinion. And I was battling my imposter syndrome and I wasn't speaking up.
And then I've also called me after the call and say, why didn't you say anything? And I said, well, I haven't been here very long. You know, and I don't want to step on people's toes. And he was like, you know, you just have to say stuff.
You know, you just say it. No one takes it personally here. And it's true. And I love it now. I mean, I just say, no, I hate that idea over my dead body.
Well, we put that on the cover of the magazine. And then they'll be like, well, now we voted and it's going on. And that's okay. And it's not. I work with this environment.
Other people wouldn't. That's why I realized that this was the right place for me and making that career change was a good thing for me. So the long team of log.
After I started this company, I was having dinner with my colleagues and I was talking about my thesis. And I needed to come up with a good idea for my thesis and grad school for journalism.
And it had to be kind of a big project. So I wanted it to tie into my job. Also, I wanted to be practical. And my colleague said, well, you should do a blog about women in open source.
And I was like, no, you know, I'm not a woman in open source. I don't write code. And there was no you are. You've been doing this for a really long time. You know, you have a different perspective.
And so I started thinking about what I wanted to do on my blog. I researched it quite a bit. There are quite a few other sites for women in technology and women in open source.
But I really thought about what I wanted to do. And like news kept saying, I really want to keep things positive. I want to focus on what's going right.
I don't think that we are in a field full of sexist picks. I just don't feel like I feel like there are a lot of people, men and women who've been very encouraging me in this field.
Everyone I know and respect in this field would like to see more women and more diversity in general in our field. And so that's what I wanted to look at. I wanted to look at women like me in this field to do different things that you might not expect that are valuable contributions.
And so that's what I decided to cover. And I wrote about my thesis. They're lucky. I'm not on Twitter right now. So you seem like my post from Linux on all the phones to free and we were live streaming.
And so you hear the Star Wars theme song go off. And one of the keynoters speaking is funny. So anyway, yeah. So anyway, I want to look at what other women were doing. There are a lot of women like me who weren't doing a good job of self promotion, who didn't have the confidence to tell people what they were doing.
So they were actually doing kind of cool things and open source. And that's what I've been trying to write about on my blog. And if you read my blog, I don't make more money either way.
If you choose not to read this, I don't feel like I'm promoting it here just for the sake of my pocket books. But I'm trying to share your information here.
I've been doing a series of interviews. I interviewed Moose and Bethlehem and quite a few people. And you submitted an interview already.
And I don't remember if you sent it in or if I emailed you, but I've had it both ways. That's how people I will send you the email. You can send yourself. You can forward the questions to a friend. You can tell me the person you want me to interview.
I'm really trying to pull women from all areas of open source out and look at what they're doing. And I got women library and saying Kansas to sell my blog and send me an email. And I read about them and they're putting in an open source system in these libraries and Kansas.
And I would have never known about that had I not had this blog and been trying to find, you know, this interesting different stuff that women are doing.
Everybody knows this is that one to 2% statistic that was done a few years ago for women in open source.
I have a lot of questions about that now. I think it's about a date. I think a criteria might, we might want to revisit what that criteria was when they decided to or women in open source.
Like I said, I think some people think that you're not a woman in open source if you don't write code.
So maybe we could look at who are what what is the percentage of women in open source to program or whatever or who are such admins and break it out.
But in any case, if you want to look at a bigger umbrella, which is what I'm interested in looking at, who are women using open source in their fields.
How about a teacher who's using some open source in a classroom. I'm really curious. I think that's a bigger number.
You know, and I think the more we start including those women, I think that we're going to see some cool results.
And the other thing, oh my blog, like I said, is I'm trying to really pull these women out of woodwork. My name's Ricky, and so you've got Mitchell and Stormy and Drew, and you might not know some of these women just by seeing their name online or there's Moose.
We never know, you know.
So maybe you're really uncomfortable still getting out and telling people how great you are on any level or the cool things that you're doing.
And that's where I still was quite a bit when I started my blog, but I really like talking about what other women were doing, and I was very comfortable with that.
And so one thing that I discovered that really surprised me is by talking about women on my blog, they, you know, you could go to your stuff for whatever and people would find I wrote about them.
And so immediately they knew who I was, and so I'd inadvertently promoted myself. I had made other people aware of me, you know, and then they let their friends know that I wrote about them on my blog.
And so I can't even tell you how many women I met this year because I wrote about them on my blog.
For example, Amber Grainer, I don't know if anyone knows Amber Grainer, if you don't, you won't know her soon, because she has not been active out here and I've filled really long maybe.
But I found her just searching for my RSS beads. She was writing about how frustrating it was to use the bean too.
And if you wanted to appeal to regular moms who are busy and don't have time to screw with it, this is a stuff that you're going to have to fix.
And so I wrote about her on my blog and was like, I hope to someone that, you know, from canonical pain attention, because these points are really valid.
She's articulating it very well.
Well, then I find out, you know, her husband's sitting across the room and he's a colonel manager to a bunch of people.
And so she's writing all this stuff, you know, like, you know, giving back my Mac, I'm sick of this.
And so yeah, he was paying attention, definitely.
But so I wrote about her and so she and I hit it up online and then we launched into magazine this year,
I've been to use their magazine and I needed somebody to interview.
Mark Shuttleworth wasn't available for that first interview.
And I said, maybe Amber's husband can do it.
He works at canonical. He works on abundance. He's a colonel manager, you know.
And it was just a weird little story about how just writing, you know, drawing attention to what this one woman was doing online has led to a whole bunch of other relationships.
I wouldn't have expected, so.
A little accidental networking.
When I was first researching this talk, you know, because I wanted to see what other women had already talked about or men had talked about.
I want to make sure I wasn't crossing over stuff.
I ran across this blog by one in the field, Tiffany B Brown.
I don't know where I saw that matter. She has this blog.
She's produced it for online media outlets.
She taught herself HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP, and my Astro.
So she wrote a blog post in 2004 called Fakes Achilles Make Itology.
She wrote lately several web professionals have asked why there aren't more high profile women working with CSS.
Now this could just as easily be why aren't there more high profile women in business or why aren't there more high profile women coaching college sports teams and so on.
Many folks have suggested reasons including from ingrained sexism to variations on that it's too complex for women being.
I think one key reason is that women on the hold don't self promote.
There are plenty of women using CSS, but there aren't plenty of women seeing their own horns.
Why is that? We don't know the rules of the game.
And so she wrote this ticket to Make Itology daily affirmations.
And I really liked it, and so I'm sharing it.
Number one is I know my ship.
Not only do I know my ship, the people who think who I think no more than me actually know less than I do.
Stop tripping.
I'm here and where I am because I can do the job if I couldn't, I wouldn't have made it past the interview.
Pretend I know, don't make an ask her a liar out of myself and say it was authority even if I'm not sure.
If they're asking me chances of they don't know either.
I want somebody asking about that.
She's not talking about like, why?
I mean, but if you know you can do something, you know, I mean you can go ahead and sound confident about it.
You know, you don't have to go, I don't know maybe.
I think I can do it.
I mean it's okay to go ahead and be assertive and get in there and do it.
I will be a brother.
Knowing my ship means nothing if no one knows that I know it.
The only way they'll know is that I tell them and then back it up by showing them.
Number five, I will not wait for approval or validation of my skills.
Why not the affirmation number one?
I know my ship.
Thank you for listening to Hack Republic Radio.
HPR is sponsored by Carol.net.
She'll head on over to C-A-R-O dot N-E-T for all of her students.
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