hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr4024.txt

Episode: 4024
Title: HPR4024: Experiences with Graphene OS and why I use it
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr4024/hpr4024.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-25 18:48:10

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This is Hacker Public Radio, episode 4,000, and 24 for Thursday, the 4th of January, 2024.
Today's show is entitled, Experiences with Graphene Oss and Why I Use It.
It is part of the series' privacy and security.
It is hosted by Ennis Tello, and is about 20 minutes long.
It carries a clean flag. The summary is, how and why I live with a dogoogled phone.
Hello there, welcome to Hacker Public Radio, this is Ennis Tello.
Hacker Public Radio is a community-driven podcast, and currently we're very short of episodes, so
please record your own episode and submit it to the team at hpr.org. We need contributors.
I want to talk today about my experiences living with a what's called a dogoogled phone.
It comes really from willingness on my part to separate myself from the influence of Google and big technology in general,
and of course the computer that I've got to hand, at least most often, is my phone like many people.
I became uncomfortable with the amount of data that Google and then others I discovered,
hold on me, when I once delved into the back end of my Google account and discovered a map.
And on that map, it basically showed where I'd been over the last two or three years,
not necessarily to the nearest square foot, but certainly pretty close.
It showed every location I'd been to when I'd moved from A to B, how fast I'd moved from A to B, how long I'd been there.
I investigated a bit further and found that data gathering these days is absolutely everywhere.
It is insidious, it's in everything that we do, and it happens all the time, whether or not you know that it's even going on.
And in fact, until you do some research and hack you a through all the marketing, terminology and preferences,
that you discover quite how much information is being held on us.
Now that information ranges from geolocation, as I mentioned, but also now extends to depending on what browser you use,
of course, where you go on the web, how you behave on any website, what links you click, how long you stay on a particular site,
what online services you use, how those services are interconnected and so on and so forth.
Now the standard line about people taking your data and using it is that it's fine that just use it for advertising.
You know, I'm strong enough willed person to be able to ignore any encouragements for me to buy things so I can just ignore the ads that's fine.
So it's no skin off my nose.
However, it does actually go a great deal deeper than that advertising or just saying advertising is a very simplistic notion of where and what data is used for.
And it's not just Google, of course, there are thousands and thousands of other companies like Google trading in data.
You only have to dive into the terms and conditions of an average smart TV to discover quite how many companies are mining your data even as you flick through channels.
There are literally thousands of them and all of these companies have one thing in common and it's that they have one criterion on which they base their decision as to whether or not they're going to sell data about you.
And that criterion is does the buyer have any money and if the answer is yes, the buyer is willing to pay for this information, they will sell it.
And of course that means that data can go more or less anywhere, be used by anyone for any purpose and those purposes may or may not chime with what you've got in mind as to how you want to live your life for instance.
And it may be that your data is being used to form a profile about you in order to encourage you or your children for instance to go and work in the nuclear weapons industry.
Now you may well already work in the nuclear weapons industry. I don't know, but personally, I'm not wild about the fact that collector data could be used to influence an election, change people's political opinions who are maybe wavering on the brink of a decision one way or another.
Create a Twitter storm about a particular issue and influence world events one way or another, all of which without our or my say so.
It's insidious and it's out of our hands and I don't like it. I find misuse of my data not necessarily upsetting, but it's troubling.
And I guess speaking of emotional issues, I don't think that people holding information about me is necessarily creepy.
I don't think there's a young man hunched over his laptop at Google headquarters examining Ennis Stella's life and where he goes and what he spends money on and what online services he uses.
I don't think it's really that cuddly or human even to any extent, but it's just this idea of something happening usually without my knowledge by default without my knowledge at least being sold on to people who have very different ideas about the world, the planet and human existence that are very different from mine.
Now that brings me to the computer in my back pocket, the smartphone I use all day every day. If you're at all interested in data privacy, then you need to make some decisions about when you refresh your phone, when you buy a new phone, when you update it and what operating system you put on it.
And there's choices out there, pretty standard. As you know, you can use an iOS or Apple phone. Apple phones tend to send about 12 to 15 megabytes of data out from the phone every day.
Obviously, that's different from any data usage that you may get involved in, you know, downloading or streaming information.
But there are about 12 to 15 megabytes of data that leave your phone that have got nothing to do with you making a proactive choice to send data from your phone. It goes out anyway. That's underneath the hood.
Android stock Android is a great deal worse. It's between 12 and 20 megabytes a day of data leaving your phone.
So geeks out there. I think, okay, well, we're going to use one of these Linux variations as a phone operating system. And I would say, again, this is just my experience. I've tried a lot of them and a lot of them are impractical for daily driver use.
I've tried UB ports, sale fish, e slash OS and lineage, for instance. And I found that a lot of those, especially the more pure Linux variants, make life too inconvenient too many times in the sense that many of the apps that I have to use in order to get things done.
Something that I'll come on to later simply don't work can't be installed or protest to such an extent that they're not in their normal environments that they become unusable.
Now, the exception I've found to this is graphene OS, which I've been using now for 14 months. And I thought I'd come on their HPR podcast and discuss my use of it over the last year plus.
It's often seen as a compromise. I don't honestly think that it is. I guess it does fall somewhere in its stance between absolute privacy and absolute openness in terms of user data.
I believe also there's Calix OS, which I haven't tried. So I'll withhold any opinion I might have about that particular operating system.
However, I've found that many of the things that are absolutely necessary, almost mandatory to have to get through daily life, not only work on graphene OS, but work as they were designed to do, and yet they don't leak data out to anyone who programs that data leakage into an application.
Or into the operating system in the case of Android. On graphene, I'm pretty much able to do all the things that I want to do every day, such as let's say banking.
So I could do my accounts. I can work with the utilities companies that supply me with power and water and so on. I can contact my doctor. I can order a prescription.
And all these apps for those things work pretty flawlessly with graphene.
So the way this works is if you read the graphene website, you'll see that there's an extensive amount of data about how the companies achieved the balance between operability and usability and privacy.
Graphene OS implements play services and play services is so well-named. It's so such a cuddly little mama care, isn't it? It's play. It's it's wistful. It's really rather nice.
But of course, play services are the way through which Google manages to centralize all information flows.
And Google uses play services to track and encapsulate your data and the data of the people and institutions that you interact with into one place so it can be examined, captured and essentially sold in some way.
Now, you can read about this to a much greater depth on the graphene OS website links in the show notes. But graphene OS runs play services but in a sandbox if you like an environment that's something of a vacuum.
And the operating system itself in the background intercepts any attempts and attempts to correct for errors any attempts which would otherwise be made by third parties or Google.
Google to connect to your data in some way. For instance, play services might be complaining that it doesn't have access to the information that it inverted commas needs.
But graphene OS will either reroute those requests for instance for geolocation and satisfy those background play services that all is well, while of course not actually letting any of your data escape.
Now, the main advantage of this particular facility is that you can use as I've mentioned, you know, standard banking apps and as I say, not atrophy data out onto the internet for others to use.
There's one particular app that I would highly recommend using and there are alternatives for this alternative apps that will do a similar thing and that's the dot dot go browser.
It contains a setting which stops and helps you track outgoing data from any application.
It will give you a notification as to which applications on your phone are sending out data even when even when this is what really surprised me even when they're not in use when you haven't run them for weeks or months, those applications are still trying to phone home and give data about you.
Interestingly, you wouldn't believe how often they try to do it and who they're trying to send data to.
For instance, one of the apps I used to do some of my banking belongs to a bank here in the UK called the co-operative bank which is one of those banks which has one of the least morally offensive codes of conduct that's available.
And yet it's that app of course that tries in the region of 600 times a day to send information back to a third party in this case it's Adobe data collection services.
Who I assume can then use that information however they see fit and however the co-operative bank see fit.
And some apps of course you're not particularly surprised they're trying to phone home I've got a little application for instance that was free that checks lottery numbers for example I downloaded that and that tries to talk to the internet again even when I'm not using it.
So that might not surprise you there are some surprises in there the app that I used to order my prescriptions from the doctor for instance also tries to phone home very often again even when I'm not using it.
But with the duck duck go settings it's app tracker prevents this happening and will inform me if and when it happens.
And obviously there are lots of apps there that will probably do the same kind of thing but this is probably the most obvious one and the one that will also serve other uses.
Goes with that saying of course that graph in OS you can use eftroid and you should this would be my advice you should if you can use any apps from eftroid.
The documentation on the app and it's licensing is a great deal clearer than anywhere else and you don't have to wait through the play store which does usually contain a great deal of great deal of craft.
Now from a work point of view when I go to work I have to use apps which are primarily Microsoft.
So that involves teams and outlook and word and Excel a couple of other things as well now graph in OS is very happy to run those applications does it without murmuring of course when you install outlook.
It tries to install the ability to remotely wipe your phone in case your Microsoft systems administrator decides that your phone has been stolen it can send signals to the OS to wipe the phone.
The graph in sandbox simply says yes okay whatever and belays those particular instructions but the end result is that apps like teams and outlook work very well.
You can also use standard mapping or maps apps Google maps for instance works fine if you want to use that open street maps is obviously works great.
Graphene seems to run the various messaging platforms that I use without hitch at all and things that are aspects of daily life that you need web browsers of any flavor all run absolutely fine.
I'm tested chrome interesting enough but I assume that works should you be that way inclined and there is as well from F droid a couple of apps that will replace find my phone or wipe my phone remotely those two things do exist you don't have to rely on Google for those things like travel apps for the train for the local buses that all works fine.
I've even run Bing co pilot on the phone all works very nicely and again I'm pretty sure at least I've taken all the steps I think I can that none of these applications are phoning home in fact there they're working in the way that software I sound old now but they're working in the way that software always used to you get an application you install it it's your software it's on your phone.
It works the way that you want it to and doesn't do anything quietly under the hood to try and cash in on the fact that you're having the tenacity and the priority to use that application.
The one downside I have heard it's not something I've experienced particularly but one aspect is that Google play services does aggregate messaging apps and push notifications it aggregates those and sends them all in one hit as it were to a phone.
And that therefore lowers the amount of data that you might use up of your carriers data plan it's not something that I've experienced a problem with I probably get through maybe 40 to 50% of the battery in a day in an 18 hour day of fairly I wouldn't say heavy use but you know normal phone use I don't use my phone all the time but I do use it very often and I've not really noticed any any hit from.
Power one thing I haven't tried at all these Google pay which is where you put your credit card details or your debit card details into your phone and you can then use NFC on your phone to pay for things in shops and and the like I just use my old plastic plastic cards for my wallet I'd be very interested to find out whether that works smoothly or not.
I guess there are a couple of other tiny paper cuts there nothing really I've got one app that wants to display a membership card for the gym that I go to and every time I bring up the membership card it complains it hasn't got enough access because he wants to re draw the screen to a different size I think that's probably about the only thing that's an irritation.
So in conclusion I would say if you are at all interested in privacy that I would recommend graphene OS as I say a Calix OS is if you like a very similar operating system one I haven't tried yet I've been running graphene for 14 months and I think it's great the irony of course is that both Calix OS and graphene OS only run on pixel phones and of course the maker of pixel phones is Google.
Before I sign off and put back on my tinfoil hat which I've obviously had to take off for the purposes of this podcast because the rustling of the aluminium foil does tend to come through on the audio.
I think it's a general point that's well worth making as internet users we have constructed this situation in which we give away our data we made that situation between us.
And therefore this isn't something that's out of our control we're not powerless in the face of data gathering on a huge scale it can be dismantled.
And the only way it will be ever dismantled is if we want to time and hopefully all of us eventually stop giving away our data for free.
We helped build this structure that I personally don't like and so therefore we're responsible for that but we can also be responsible for dismantling that structure as well.
I think the best analogy for data privacy is that if you would imagine every word that you uttered out loud could be used by other people that you've never met without your permission because everything that you said had value
but other people could use what you said for whatever reason they wanted for whatever purposes they wanted whether or not you agreed with them using your words and what you said out loud.
They could just go right ahead and they could make money out of it as well as long as the people willing to buy that information had a few dollars in their back pocket you'd probably start watching what you said and where you said it and who you said it to.
I think Edward Snowden and I'm going to mangle the quote really said something like saying you don't care about data privacy because you've got nothing to hide is like saying you don't care about free speech because you've got nothing to say.
Data in my opinion is much the same as speech free speech and with that I'll sign off. This has been Hacker Public Radio. I'm Enastello. Thank you for listening.
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