hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr0688.txt

Episode: 688
Title: HPR0688: Badge Of Infamy
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0688/hpr0688.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-08 00:57:25

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Hi and welcome to today's
Echor Public Radio.
Bokey and with me is integral.
Hello integral.
Hello integral.
And the legendary Dan Washco.
Hello integral.
Very good.
So we're here today to review the
book, Badge of Infamy by Lester Del Rey.
I don't know what you guys, but I'm very excited about this.
And thank you both for joining me.
Oh, I'm excited to and thank you for suggesting this.
Yeah, appreciate being on here.
Actually, I think it was integral who came up with the idea.
So thanks to integral too.
I only had to talk him out of doing shadow magic.
Hey, it's a good book.
It's a fantastic.
Didn't want to do it as our first book since we hadn't either of us finished this part two of it.
But we'll talk about that another day.
I hope so.
What did you guys think of the book?
Can I ask a question first?
Yeah, please.
And I don't know if this is going to be edited out, but I'm not from Australia.
How much of this are we going to time?
I mean, we're not going to reveal the ending of the book or anything.
Oh, yes, of course.
We're assuming that everyone listening to this is already read it.
And we can do a little bit without giving anything away first.
And then we'll let people know.
Stop here.
If you intend on listening, how's that sound?
Okay, that's fine.
Yeah, that works for me.
I just want to know.
Because sometimes it's hard to talk about a book without talking about the ending too.
Yeah, that's why I really didn't want restrictions on it.
And I had had Ken announce it and he did that on today's HPR on the previous one as well.
So we should be okay.
All right.
So what did you guys think of it?
I actually liked the book and I'm not a huge fan of sci-fi.
What did you like about it?
I liked that it was an interesting way of looking at how you let your government to be in individual corporations.
Yeah, I really enjoyed that aspect about it too.
I follow politics.
I really hate politics, but I follow them anyway.
It's very interesting to me.
That part of it, I really got into a lot.
Dan, what you think?
I'll tell you what, I was very surprised how much I enjoyed listening to this.
I've really got into it and it was difficult for me to put it not listen to it.
Because I was trying to keep it during my commute hours, not listening to it at work.
Because I wanted to devote attention to it.
And actually the last three chapters I just went into the bedroom laid down and just did nothing but listen to it.
I was thoroughly engrossed in the story and the characters and I enjoyed it very much.
I was very surprised at how relevant that this story was.
And when I actually went and looked at some information on the book itself was blown away that this was written in 1957.
Was it 1957?
I saw one place late 50s and some other place early 60s, but your point stands.
It doesn't matter at that point.
The relevancy was astonishing.
Okay, I didn't know that this was written that far back.
And I have to say for something that was that far back, this is amazing.
So for commentary on today's political standing.
Yeah, it really, really was.
In fact, if I could just jump right into it.
One of the things I noticed today was I was listening to another podcast and they were talking about all of the lobbyists at Obama and his administration has hired since he's been in.
And one of his promises that he ran on was we're not hiring any lobbyists.
And they've just taken over.
And that's, I mean, what this whole book was about was these lobbies that have taken over the government.
Well, it's not so much that they've taken over the government.
It's that they've straight out replaced it power-wise.
Yeah, they absolutely have. They have their own courts. They had their own police.
They were able to, well, we won't get into that just yet.
But yeah, they completely replaced it. You're right.
I mean, because the government still existed in all, it's just they sat in and they had more power, which is something that's amazing.
Now, I didn't notice, I didn't notice any mention of a government being in place.
The only mention of any government whatsoever was these lobbies.
If I may add a correction in here, according to Wikipedia, Badge of Infamy was written in 1973.
73, okay.
Yes, Badge of Infamy was written in 1973.
I don't know about you guys, but I read a good deal of sci-fi in my life.
And I could tell from reading this that it was written not in recent decades, that it was a little bit older.
And one of the things that kind of tips you off, and it reminded me a lot of Ray Bradbury's writing style,
where they really had no idea when he was writing this. He really had no idea what the surface of Mars was like.
We kind of improvised, made it a little more accessible than it truly is.
And it didn't, I didn't think it hurt the story, but it just, you see that a lot.
Also early in the book, The Prices, where the guy said an extra blank, an extra dime would get you a blanket in the, like the flop house that he was in.
You guys noticed that at all?
Yeah, when, in reality, it'd be in the complete opposite way around.
Yeah, they would give you the blank for free and, but any extra perks would be more than a dime.
They'd be probably more than a dollar at this point.
Yeah, that, that's some point I was making is the price of the astronomical.
Yeah, in comparison, it really would.
And that doesn't bother me, but I notice it a lot in science fiction books, where they make predictions about the future.
But the one thing they'll often stay away from is the prices of things.
They'll just either make them, you know, modern offices, which is a nice hint as to when the book was written.
Or they'll come up with a whole new monetary, you know, denomination.
A lot of guys will use credits.
You know, they'll say, whatever, earth credits, space credit, or just credits or credits.
That was the first thing that tipped me off of that, this book was old.
I wouldn't say it tipped me off to begin with prompting me to go find when this book was written.
Because of the price of things like getting a bowl of soup for like a, under a call this stuff or under a quarter.
He had two quarters and he got all this stuff and I'm like, I don't know.
The topic seems so relevant, but the cost of items seems so archaic.
Definitely was.
Now, what other topics besides the lobbies that you, did you pick up on anything?
Well, if I may add further into that, though, before we jump into your saying,
that's probably one of the things that, that like pricks at me the most and with sci-fi and older sci-fi.
Not so much older sci-fi, but stuff that's not as old like maybe from in the past decade or so.
When it's a little difficult to read like stuff that doesn't mesh with technology even today,
but they're supposed to be futuristic.
Oh, yeah, like how no one had a cell phone.
Yeah, well, there was no cell phones.
Stuff was on tape. They recorded stuff on tape still.
I had mentioned this in the author that we interviewed.
Stephen Lake did the Earth Fleet Saga and how everybody would carry around these,
these like pads that they would record stuff on.
And I said that kind of just a little bother me a little bit because now,
I mean, you have a cell phone that you would do all sorts of functionality with.
You have hundreds of pads that you would have to read through.
They just beam it to each other and he purposefully did that.
I'm really glad you mentioned that, Dan, because that was one of the things that I noticed too
when they were out in the woods.
This was early on in the books so much of a spoiler,
but the way that he became a pariah, which is like, you know, just this underbelly of society
was all these pariahs.
The way that he became that was by operating on a friend of his outside of a lobby hospital.
And they couldn't, you could perform medicine outside of a hospital,
which couldn't operate outside of a lobby control hospital.
And they mentioned, they made mention that there was no phone,
they're hunting shed, they were in.
That kind of stuck out because if he had had a cell phone,
if they had imagined that technology at this point or if Lester Del Rey had,
there'd have been no story.
They just used the cell phone and called in a Medevac.
Right. And I could have bought, and again, this is like time period.
I could have bought if they would have said there was no cell phone tower
or something was going on like static interference and they couldn't reach.
I would have bought that no problem.
Yeah, same here.
You know, even if their communication had just failed on them.
Yeah, that's not, yeah, that's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
I can forgive somebody for not imagining technology though,
even in a sci-fi I can.
I mean, it's like, I don't know if you guys ever listened to Cory Doctoro or Reed Cory Doctoro,
but one of the things that he says often in his interviews,
and he's quoting somebody else, he didn't even come up with it,
but it's so poignant, he repeats it a lot.
Is it science fiction writer?
Often don't put the future, they predict present.
So we're just putting modern day problems into a future scenario,
which really makes me wonder what the heck kind of problems
where they happen with lobbyists back in the early 70s.
And what are they still doing around?
Yeah, exactly.
How can we fix that by now?
That's the crazy part, right?
Yeah, one of the really interesting things that I think is kind of a theme
through this entire book here is that the main characters constantly presented
with impossible choices, where there's only one choice for him to make,
and it kind of dams him every time.
Well, yeah, he's always given the choice between right and wrong, frankly.
Basically, and he picks right every time, and he's damned for it,
because that's how broken the system is.
That's a really good point.
I mean, that's how the whole pariah thing even gets started,
is that he's got a choice of saving his friend,
and losing his license to practice and his ability to practice,
or letting him die.
Do you remember his friend's reaction when he found out he had been
if it had been saved the way that it had?
Yes.
I thought it was like very ludicrous and hard to believe that
your life was just saved, but yet you'd rather have died.
Yeah, so that your friend maintained their status, that's much.
I believe the word he was appalled.
The friend who was appalled at what had been done to him.
Yeah.
That killed me.
I mean, what a perfect word to describe the situation that was going on there.
And so because of that, he became a pariah.
He became the worst on the face of the earth,
you know, for saving a life.
And he liked the top of the class.
He was the upper crust.
Oh, okay.
And this is a good example of sort of different when this was written,
is when he found the space guy, the space man,
I think is basically just what he called him.
Found the guy was dying, and he couldn't help him in the flop house there.
And he went and told the attendant the guy was dying and the attendant brushed him off.
And he just told the guy his name, the guy recognized him.
You know, how many people attending anything or working any,
as any clerk position these days, would recognize anyone from the news
if it wasn't Charlie Sheen or Lady Gaga.
I mean, wow, right?
I see what you're saying, but it could also have been,
he could have been like huge news because it sound like the medical lobby
was a major controlling force in the politics and in the world alone.
I mean, and for him, someone that go pariah,
it sounds like it could have made huge news.
I would suspect that it would be akin to, I don't know,
maybe Charlie Manson or something, everybody knows them.
Yeah, or like Devorek.
Or not Devorek.
Devorek, he knows his name.
Okay, yeah, I was gonna say Devorek.
Well, he's public enemy number two, but whatever.
Yeah.
You make a good keyboard, everybody hates you.
What?
I thought you were talking about John Devorek.
I was trying to talk about Jack of Warkin by screw it up.
Right.
We forgot to mention our beverage tonight,
and I think mine's starting to go to my head maybe just a little bit.
You guys each bring a beverage to review?
I forgot to ask.
I just finished mine.
Would you have?
Yes.
A Miller Chenuantraff, baby.
Alright, so let's see how to review.
A Miller Chenuantraff?
You better, I've never had it.
It's, you know, it's a light, not a light beer, but it's a, well,
when I say light, I don't mean like cores lighter or anything like that.
It's a crisp logger, very light logger.
It has a nice little sweetness to it, but not overly.
Overpowering for a run of the mill standard American logger.
I like it.
It's not as good as the England.
It's not, you know, I don't expect it to have the high praise that you would get from a hand.
Microbrue, it's nothing like that.
It's just mass produced American logger.
Look for an affordable beer.
It's not offensive.
I don't find it offensive.
You know, I kind of like it a little better than Budweiser.
It doesn't have like a harshness to it.
It's just, I find it very smooth.
But I like Budweiser too.
You really?
Yeah, I do.
Oh, the only kind of beer I do not like is again light beers.
Core's light, Miller light.
Most of those light beers I do not like.
I'm not very keen on the ultra beers.
The ones that are like 64 calories.
I think they're a little too watered down from my taste.
But anything I've proven beyond that.
I've even tried an ultra beer.
But those light beers to me taste like a fountain soda.
They're just so sweet and bubbly.
That's a really others to them to me.
Yeah, I know.
I'm not a big fan of those.
So MGD thumbs up.
I give it a thumbs up.
I'm drinking it.
I'll tell you what.
If I didn't like it.
Oh, probably one of the not.
Well, that's a light beer too, I think.
The Budweiser, they came out with Budlime.
Remember that?
Miller light.
Miller light.
There's another one that's like wheat or something like that.
I did not like that.
Is that the golden wheat?
It might be.
I think it is.
Yeah, wheat beers are a little different.
Definitely not the same.
But if you like Budweiser, I mean, that's a rice beer, isn't it?
I think most American beers are rice beers.
Most of the giant ones, yeah.
There's not enough of, you know, whatever they would substitute.
I'm going to look that up.
Keep going.
I could be wrong.
Oh, yes.
It's brewed using barley malt rice water hops and yeast.
And you are the best BS caller on any podcast that I know of.
And I love you for it.
I'm wondering if Miller Genio is rice in it.
I have no idea.
Integral, what are you drinking?
I'm drinking a flying dog tire bite golden ale.
Oh, I've seen those.
I can get that if you like it.
I do like it.
It was actually really good.
Kind of had a bit of a sweet flavor to it.
And it had a good hops to it.
Some people may disagree with me, but I think this one almost goes into a pale ale category,
with how happy it is.
But it's still on a lower end.
How is it for sweetness?
It wasn't extremely sweet, but you could tell it's a little bit sweeter than usual.
Then you know, just your bitter.
Okay.
Yeah, and that's what usually kills me about beers.
If they're too sweet, I have a hard time with them.
Yeah, it's not too sweet.
It has a slight kick to it.
Cool.
So is that a, is that a reduction of thumbs up?
Yeah, I'd give it a thumbs up.
Awesome.
I'm drinking what might, what's very quick when my favorite red wine.
I'm drinking a Pothic red wine makers blend from California.
This one says 2009 on the bottle.
And it's, it's a blend wine.
It's Zinfandel and Sarah and Merlot.
And who knows if they got a couple of others in there or not.
This is like a $9 bottle of wine.
And I don't taste any tannins in it at all.
And the tannins is the part about wine that people always go, oh, I don't like that.
If it's, if it's got tannins in it, people don't like red wine.
It's got a lot of tannins to it.
And that's why you got to let wine age just to mellow those out.
And this, I don't taste it.
And why is it, it's really nice.
It's, it's like thick.
It's almost a maple flavor to almost.
It's kind of vanilla, vanilla for a red.
And it's, it's nice.
I like this one a lot.
It's quickly, quickly becoming my favorite.
I usually drink the drinking red wine.
I usually drink the yellow tail.
Shiraz, Cabernet blend.
And the one with the purple bottle.
And I like that one a lot.
And this one is even better.
It's, it's a lot more mellow.
What is it called?
This one is apothec red.
A-P-O-T-H-I-C.
And it's just an all black bottle with a red letter A on it.
It looks like the scarlet letter.
You know, the, um, the adultery letter there.
The scarlet letter.
Yeah, sure.
It's got kind of a, kind of a dark look to the bottle anyway.
And it's, and it's a really dark red wine.
I mean, you can't even see through it.
That bottle looks familiar.
I'm going to have to keep an eye out for it because now I'm intrigued.
For nine bucks, I'm telling you, if you don't like it,
I'll buy the rest of the bottle off of you.
It's, it's that good.
I'm going to take your word for it.
I always like to hear a good wine.
It's hard to come by.
Nobody ever has a good recommendation.
Every recommendation I've tried has just been terrible.
But I do like that, um,
who was it you were talking about to Shiraz?
The yellow tail Shiraz?
Yeah, the yellow tail Shiraz?
Yeah, that, and I think, uh,
doesn't, what is it?
Little penguin or whatever it is?
Have a Shiraz too?
I haven't tried it.
I like, yeah, this,
I think it's called little penguin.
Yellow tail, something out of Australia.
Yeah, they're in Peter's back, sure.
That's right.
I thought, I think little penguin is too.
I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, Peter's got that great backyard.
Yeah, they, if it's a Shiraz,
it's, it's probably Australian because they're,
they're, from what I've read,
but that's where, you know, the,
the best of the Shiraz has come from,
is Australia.
Well, that's where most of those groups are compromets.
I, I think it is.
I mean, they didn't originally come from there.
They were, they were brought there,
probably by exported criminals.
So I'm guessing they've stolen.
They've stolen from France.
Right.
And, uh, and I guess they,
they grew some of the best Shiraz in the world.
And they also called Shiraz.
That, that's the same thing, I think.
And, um, they grew some of the best in the world.
And nobody was buying it.
So they cut down all these vines.
Because nobody was buying their wine.
And they started playing other stuff.
And it just wasn't working as good.
And all of a sudden, Shiraz became popular.
And all these old growth vines were gone.
And those are the best.
So like, we're missing out on some of the best wine in the world
that could have been.
And just, we'll, we'll never see it.
Just sad story.
It's a very sad story.
If you drink wine.
I mean, most guys, you know,
all the guys I work with, you know,
that's, whenever I do something I don't like,
they'll just look at me and go,
yeah, but you drink wine.
Well, I don't completely blame.
I'm not a big wine drinker myself.
It's, it's definitely required.
And, you know, because the first few that I drank,
I didn't like it all.
And, I mean, you gotta get a fine,
what you like.
Everyone's different, I guess.
I agree with you on that.
There's just a lot of nuances in wine.
And it's very, you end up being tailored to someone's palate
more than most beverages.
Yeah, and that's the real pain.
I could buy it because they're usually, you know,
for a good one.
They're usually between 9 and 15 bucks
for a good bottle of wine.
And you can spend 15 bucks in a bottle of wine
and get pantypiss.
Hopefully not.
Where you can get a box of wine.
If you like sweet wine,
it's the way to go.
A box of wine.
My wife box wine sometimes.
She want to get her drink on.
Hey, go for the box and challenge drink.
You want to drink a whole box yourself?
Me, no.
Yeah.
Oh, forget a whole box.
That's nuts.
I've never heard of that phrase.
You've got to practice that for years.
Have you done that integral?
Oh, God, no.
That's pretty impressive.
He'd have to still be in college.
Do you get fortified wine?
Actually, I have had probably five
or six different ports that I've tried.
And a port is a fortified wine.
And they all suck.
Except for one.
One is in its fan.
It's incredibly fantastic.
It's my favorite wine.
And I wasn't talking about port.
But you're talking about mad dog.
I just mad dog.
And I think it's thunderbird.
Portified wine.
And Irish ruse.
Probably.
Cisco.
Oh, I don't even want to think about it.
We've gotten so far away from the book now.
Go ahead, Dan.
Bring it to the book.
Help us out.
I felt myself have when listening to the book,
I felt my blood pressure rise a few times during these things.
When he talked about how he became a pariah
and floated by the medical lobby at every part of the way.
And particularly his entrance with his ex-wife.
And I found it interesting that she kind of came over
to his side or the stuff that she would say to him.
Hang on, Dan.
Can we spoil this now?
Because you're getting desperately close to spoilers here.
I think we're past the beer and wine segment.
We can spoil it.
I was hoping so.
All right, Dan.
Bill, let's go ahead.
And in a lot of stories or something like this,
you would expect that his wife or eventually
has come around to his side of thinking
and maybe change a little bit.
But it never appeared that she did.
No, she was always for herself.
She wanted that cure for herself because she was infected.
Yes, she did.
Yeah, and if not for her, then for her father.
That could be two.
It did hint to it a couple of times.
But towards the end when they were getting close to the cure,
she was really excited when she thought hers was fixed.
And also, all the time that she wanted this cure,
she just was never going to break
from the medical lobby way of doing things, too.
She would let him do it and course him into doing it.
But not her.
She was always staying on the straight narrow with them.
I liked that one scene where she actually was being patients.
And they were that other doctor's patients.
And he sent her away.
He's like, you're not a doctor.
You're like a technician to these people.
I forget exactly what he said.
You're not treating my patients anymore.
I thought that was great.
She was, she was true.
She was evil.
Yeah, I don't know.
See, I don't think she was evil.
But I don't mean like evil in the evil sense.
She was just, uh,
I think she was very self-motivated.
She definitely was self-motivated, yeah.
Yeah.
And I just, I thought like, you know,
for the, is a couple of times in the book,
maybe two or three times where it says that he could
picture again.
He used to love about her.
And I was right there when I could almost, you know,
understand what he meant.
And again, looking back at the time period when this was
written, coming out of the season to the 70s
and the liberation movements and the free love
and everything, it's interesting to see
probably the epitome of cold,
mechanized, and for yourself portrayal of the
medical lobby is embodied in her.
Being a female character, one who you would assume
would be, you know, traditional female nurturing
kind of roles is completely reversed.
And he seemed to be more sympathetic and nurturing
and have to quote feminine qualities than she did.
And she was a very ruthless.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I mean, he could see turned himself over
and all his notes or was ready to two or three times
in the book.
Right.
Yeah, at least.
But you have to kind of look back at that time period.
Any women that were in business were really cutthroat.
At least that were higher up.
Or that was at least the perception of them.
I think the same could be said about most people,
men or women these days that are real high up.
Yes.
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree.
That's the way our society is going.
I mean, it's curious.
It makes me wonder now that you said that
but their society was still trending that way
at that point.
Because I think we're there now.
We're way beyond that point now.
Not at my company, of course,
needs to boss is listening.
Of course not.
The company is the exception.
I did find that a lot of the characters in the book
were very likable at first.
Ands.
How do I say this?
I think he did a very handy job of taking the guys
that were kind of on the pariah side
and presenting them in a very kind of positive light.
But those who were not on this side quickly became villainous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there was one exception to that, wasn't there?
It was who was who was the one guy that was charitable?
Oh, the captain.
The captain of the captain.
Yes, the captain.
Second spaceship.
Yeah, but I think I know who you were talking about at first.
You're talking about the guy who seemed to be the head
of the the two men, right?
Yeah, it's very, very much so.
The two men.
I mean, there was just like,
it seemed like they could have been buddy,
like him and Jake were.
Oh, yeah.
Like that dude's going to give you a big bear hug.
But then, you know, it just all of a sudden,
these guys worked together for months at a time.
Like, six months?
Worked together, had each other's backs.
You know, things are going well.
And then, boom, just one little thing comes up
and they turn on them.
Yeah.
We have to understand that was kind of a big thing.
I mean, he thought he had killed somebody
that he had worked with for months, her beers.
Yep.
Yep, that's true.
You're right.
Right.
So as he had a six month trip with this one guy,
but he said he had three six month trips with the other guy.
So you think they would have gotten to know each other?
He would have been a little more, you know,
you would think that he would listen to what he had to say first.
Right.
Well, he listened to him in the end.
Well, yeah, but before decking the guy
and growing a wrench at him.
I don't know, man.
I think I would have decked him first.
Well, now we know what kind of guy you are.
I won't be in any two with you in the near future.
Thank goodness.
No, I mean, if someone had come up to me,
if I had found my best buddies ticket,
let's drive his license,
came flying out of this other guy's bag.
Yeah, I'm going to think the worst instantly.
And I don't know.
I'd probably...
Maybe I would maybe have a level head.
I'd like to think I would,
but I suspect I wouldn't.
I think I'd fly off the handle like that.
I don't know.
I can see if it was somebody you just met
maybe talking to over a few hours,
but six months,
working side by side in a life death situation.
Yeah, I think I'm going to get to the person
a little more than that.
Have a little bit more faith in him.
Well, I don't know.
They didn't say that though.
Did they?
They never went into their relationship
other than while they were working.
Yeah, but to get a comment out of the guy
that he's not that bad for a green horn,
that implies that they've had some sort of relationship there.
That's true.
Yeah, he's at least a hard worker.
Yeah, and that's something that the guy
suspected.
Yeah.
But then again, it was a plot
where he used to get him on to them on the Mars,
and he had him.
So it turned to us.
Yeah, and I'm a sucker for a good plot device.
When you brought up the cap,
it was very cordial to him.
And I believe the cap also had,
and his wife also had the disease.
Yes, they both did.
I kind of had a respect for the captain from the get go.
Oh, yeah.
And I felt really, you know,
and I was not turned off
by learning that he and his wife had the disease.
But that reminded me of when they
threw him out of the airlock.
Yep.
And he was out there,
and then his...
What's her name again?
Gosh.
He's talking about Chris.
Chris, yeah, I was thinking,
was it Christina?
Is there a full name?
Or is it just Chris?
I don't think it really is.
Well, when Chris came...
I just called my ex ex.
So, yeah.
All right.
His ex.
Hey, they were still married.
They were two.
She never got the divorce, remember?
Well, yeah, but only because it made her look bad.
She played his ass so bad.
You know what?
She may have gotten the divorce
and just told him that she didn't.
Because she really...
She was playing him just then.
But when she...
This is one thing that I thought...
When she picked him up,
I thought that they had flown out on the captain ship
over a period of a couple of days.
Okay.
Or was it a week or something?
I can't remember the time frame.
But they went back on that life raft shuttle.
Back to Mars.
Yeah.
I just thought it was kind of odd.
And nobody seemed to notice...
Well, I guess...
I guess I could say it seemed kind of odd at that time,
but then looking back,
it almost seemed like it was...
...apploy the entire way...
...by the medical lab.
That's...
Well, I don't know.
Do you think it was a play by the medical lobby to get the cure?
If it was, it was a really stupid one.
But on the other hand,
that's something that kind of...
You said this was book was a page turner for you.
Well, the audio form,
you know, equivalent of a page turner.
And that you couldn't get enough of it.
And I remember thinking that the first time that I listened to this,
I mean, I listened to it in one sitting,
all at once.
I'd never stopped and it was fascinating.
For this show,
I listened to it a second time.
And I noticed things I didn't notice before,
like holes in the plot.
And the whole premise of the medical lobby,
reliant on this guy who has no resources,
no experience with research,
with disease control or anything,
that...
The second time I listened to it,
that premise was just full of holes for me.
So, as far as whether or not she was on the ship by their design,
I'm not going to comment,
because that...
That point had already picked holes in it.
Well, the way that I've seen the lobbies,
and this may just be me being the way that I am,
and I don't want to make anybody mad here,
but I see them kind of like an overpowered union.
They were the reverse of a union.
Well, they were kind of groups that set up their own ways
and set up everything just for themselves.
I mean, that kind of is a union to me.
Yeah, that's true.
I know you're right,
because unions are run by the bosses, too.
Yeah, I mean, it's not just over number rules,
but the way that I kind of saw it was,
is maybe the medical lobby wasn't as well-office,
as they thought they were,
as far as research went,
because they covered that not many people
did research or an elect few.
Yeah, that was mentioned a couple times,
like, I think in the...
either late in the first chapter,
early in the second chapter,
they mentioned that progress
would have had stalled at about the point of 1980.
I mean, he made a point of saying that.
Yeah, so maybe the whole fair is that they just
couldn't get me farther,
because they didn't know how.
Well, remind me of that when we get to the end of the book, too,
because he definitely bookended that thought.
One thing I wanted to hear from you, integral,
if you don't mind,
you were bursting at the seams online,
and I had to stop you from talking to me about it.
You wanted to talk about that first trial.
Yes, I did.
Well, I didn't want to talk about it.
I, at least then,
I wanted to just mention how awesome it was.
That was definitely my favorite moment of the book.
That was a good time.
I was grinning when I,
when that came across.
I mean, I was a little sad behind it,
because it was this guy that you knew,
and then all of a sudden,
surprised he's a lawyer.
To me, that goes into my least favorite plot
device ever,
and it makes me want to cry.
But the fact that he saves the day,
I'm just such an off the cuff
technicality,
and the judge goes with it.
It was awesome.
It was awesome.
And it was, in case you had any doubts,
the guy said,
that document is so sloppy,
you could prove anything.
Yeah, exactly.
Which was,
it wasn't like he's just magical,
and he did whatever he could.
Exactly.
It was a big problem with a lot of sci-fi.
You said, you don't like sci-fi.
Is that he'll just pull out some magic,
you know, some technology,
but like, oh, we had it all along.
Then it's BS,
and you're,
and they, they,
he exactly did not do that
with this shoot.
You're absolutely right.
Yeah, at first,
I was like, oh, great.
He's a lawyer.
This is just going to be sad.
But,
he did it in a way that I was peeing.
It worked out.
It wasn't like in a race or a worry.
It just pops out with rail guns
and starts shooting people.
Right.
Dan?
That clearly showed me
that the people on Mars,
they had a,
kind of like the medical lobby was.
They had their old,
old timey,
um,
collectives
and, and groups
and everything,
and they all went off.
Kind of.
Yeah.
Looked out for one another.
And there was this divide.
Obviously,
there was a dividing them
and earth and them
and the lobbies, too.
And there seemed to be
a couple different classes of people.
There was Jake and his group of people
who were kind of
rabble rousing,
revolutionaries,
low-key revolutionaries,
and then there was the medical lobby
who was the old,
overreaching governmental power,
the oppressors.
And then in between,
there was just the common people.
And those were the,
they were,
they were hard to pinpoint
whose side they were on
and more often than not.
They just wanted to live
and get by.
They were not beyond being
coerced into one side
or the other
for their own economic gain.
And nor could you blame them?
No, not at all.
He did a very good job
of painting a very desperate picture
to for everyone who was not
in that medical lobby.
Yes.
And I had a hard time
kind of pinpointing
whether,
what the atmosphere was exactly
like on Mars.
I think it was breathable,
but they required an apparatus
because the air was just
a little too thin
or something they had respirators.
That's the impression that I got
as it was something
just making pressure for them.
Uh-huh.
The impression I got
was a little bit different.
The populated areas
were breathable,
but the areas
that were outside of that,
you needed respirator
or something?
Yeah, it seemed like
outboards you needed it.
And as soon as they were indoors,
there must have been an air lock
or something.
He didn't really go
into the delts on that.
No, the only time
that I caught any detail
was that with that
was whenever they were crashing
the ship
near the end of the book.
Yeah.
And also,
right when he got to Mars,
when he found he had
the extra battery pack.
Yeah, exactly.
Spelled out there
and the one guy
at the bar
let him sit
in the lobby.
Yeah.
One thing you mentioned,
now that you mentioned that,
you know, how Mars was
a little different,
one thing that I thought was
really, really fun,
just, you know,
from kind of a nerd side
of things,
is when they were driving
the car really fast
at one point that, like,
tank car thing
that they had,
and he said he had
the Riosat turned all the way
up, so they're dialing
up a Riosat for speed.
That was fun for me.
Yeah.
The vehicles were pretty,
pretty interesting.
Picture of,
they had tank
threads, didn't they?
Yeah.
He said they were like
a car, but they were
tracked.
Right.
Tracked.
Now what,
Yeah, your fortune
was tracked throughout
most of the book.
Yeah, that's right.
But in a small car
for the early 70s too,
it's very different than
what we picture anyway,
because they were
sleeping in them.
And doing research.
Yeah, that's true.
That's right.
They were, they had
electron microscope
set up in there and
everything.
It seemed like he
just carried an
electron microscope
to plan it.
Okay.
So I have to admit,
I felt like an idiot
at first whenever they
started talking about
the microscopes.
Because, you know,
the court hands
in the judge hands
in the optical microscope.
But he calls an
optical mic.
And the first thing
that pops in my head
is that he hands
in a microphone.
Right.
That's what I thought
I kept getting confused by.
And so I was, you know,
going through my head,
why is he handed
in a microphone?
And how is it optical?
My second time
to the book, I don't
remember if I had that
in my head.
I thought it was, you
know, that the optical
microscope and the
electron microscope was
pretty damn huge.
You don't carry one
of those things
around.
I didn't think so.
How do you do
on Mars?
Apparently.
I was trying to
figure out, well, if
they can carry around
an electron microscope,
why don't you bother
with an optical microscope
anymore?
Well, again, it was
the only one on Mars
and they hadn't put
the surveillance device
in it yet.
That's true.
It took him a while
to pick that up though,
didn't it?
Yeah, I think it took
him longer than it
should have.
Okay.
Now, this is the part
of a dying to talk
about with you guys.
It took him a while to
pick that up.
To me, and I remember
clearly from the first
time I read the book,
it took forever.
How long
you guys screaming?
It's the brachy weed.
It's the brachy weed.
You know that part
where he says it's
the brachy weed?
That's about when I
picked it up the first time.
Oh, really?
I kind of got it
right before that they
did it.
I didn't pick it up as
quick as you did Poké.
But towards the end,
and when I did pick it up,
it kind of hit me
in the head.
I'm like, yeah,
this was made in the 1970
Earth.
This was made a long
time ago when
smoking was acceptable
because I can't
imagine anybody this day
and age writing a story
where the cure to
the major illness
just to start smoking.
Yeah.
He spelled it out
really, really clearly
when they first asked
for the volunteers
and they said,
they all put their
brachy weeds out
and followed him.
I mean, I thought that was
like, abundantly clear
at that point.
But I remember the first time
I read the book,
it was way
earlier than that,
and I was going,
come on,
it's the brachy weed
already.
Well, did you actually
read the book or read
when listening to the
party of book then too?
Sorry,
listening to it,
I wasn't reading it.
Okay.
Sorry, that was
not intentional.
No, but I thought
that the brachy weed
because it was
it was a sure
all through the book.
I mean, even before
they was brachy weed,
when he was
in that
whop house in the very
first scene,
probably in the first paragraph,
he was clutching
the precious tobacco
close to him.
Yeah, that's true,
and that was
another good indicator
that was an
older story.
Well,
I didn't think that was
much of a tip off.
I think people feel the same
today about tobacco
as it did before.
Well, I mean,
it's got such a
negative stigma
these days.
I don't know.
Doctors
are around
chain smoking.
Oh, that again.
The pariah is
getting negative, too.
Yeah.
I guess you need
to interrupt you, though.
No, no, no.
No, this is a good
point.
That is a good
point.
So at the end,
and I'm trying to
recall now, the cure
for that, was it just
the brachy weed
or was it what his,
he came up with a
cure in conjunction
with the brachy weed?
No, it was just the
key.
It was the brachy weed.
Yeah, there was the
infant's blood
had some effect
on the stuff
on the virus,
while it was in the test
tubes.
But it had no
effect on anyone
in the human body.
Oh.
Or in the adult
human body anyway.
So you think that
with all the people
who were dropping
over dead,
and the
weeks that they spent
researching this,
that might have been
a little more apparent.
You would think that
at the funeral home,
you know, the wake,
just a cloudy room
of survivors.
Yeah, everybody
there isn't sick
and is smoking the
brachy weed,
but the people
that are dying still.
Yeah, and I would say
yes, except that,
I mean, this guy
saw the very first case
of it too.
True.
Which was odd,
is that guy
didn't run or anything?
Well, he saw
the very first death of it.
Yeah, but that first guy
who died wasn't a runner.
They could remember
they called them
runners.
Right.
Yeah.
So that was kind of odd
of a runner.
Hey, and that reminds me,
that first guy that died,
that pissed me off
when that other doctor
came in there,
and just
shot him up with something
to kill him.
You know, I mean,
the name of the
that he shot him with was
like,
necro something,
or narco something,
whatever it was,
it had death in the name.
And that really
annoyed me.
And it just,
and I think it annoyed
the doctors,
I think it annoyed him too,
but before
they mentioned that it
annoyed him,
it really annoyed me,
and I don't know
the author did that
on purpose,
you know,
to make the guy
more relatable,
but that got to me.
Narconol.
That's what it was.
He shot him up
with Narconol.
I think he did do it
to make him more
because, I mean,
he kind of
emphasized that whole
the,
Dr. Radcliff,
it's Radcliff, right?
It's Doc.
I forget.
Doc, I'm sorry.
Not Radcliff.
What am I thinking?
Feldman.
Daniel Feldman.
Yep.
That's right.
It was...
He was derisive
towards that doctor
the whole time,
because He knew.
He knew...
He could curate
if it was...
Was it
space intestine
or whatever that was?
Space stomach.
Space stomach
hateitarianism.
That was
another interesting thing.
Curhing
through to use
a massage ...
I don't know
if that was
a big
or so to speak
on in traditional
medicine.
That's that time period.
something more in the later decades of the 90s and 2000s, using non-traditional methods
to cure disease.
And it's a good point, because even nowadays, massage isn't a cure, it's a therapy.
Right.
It almost seemed like, you know, that was a good representation of the standard medical
lobby person, you know, a guy who's either, and it draws a great parallel, like said, integral
to the union, people who are under a union, that unions are bad or anything, but, I mean,
they do have strict rules like that, that, you know, you can't do x, y, and z, and if
it's your time, you don't do any work on your break time, or, you know, if that's not
in your job detail, you don't go outside and do it, that's somebody else's job, and
you know, it just seemed to be by the book, you know, this guy looks too far gone.
I'm not even gonna bother and arc him up, he's dead.
But you know what he did do, he did make sure to collect his pay.
He did.
Yeah, it didn't mention you's faster than the attendant.
Yeah, exactly.
Now, if you say that, Dan, it makes me think, I try to do a little bit of research on the
book at 1.2, I tried to find out when it was written in a little bit about the author
and stuff, and I tried really hard not to see other people's reviews.
I saw the first line of one, my eyes glanced over, and I couldn't help it read it, and the
person who reviewed it compared the medical lobby to the DMV.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to avoid too looking at some reviews.
See, that's why I just don't research.
At a boy.
That's why we love you and growl.
Although I will have to say, though, that doctor, I kind of garnered a little respect
for him when he turned and gave the money to Feldman instead of the attendant, like the
finder fee.
Yeah, I thought that was interesting.
He went from being this horrible person who was there just for himself just to get his
wages, and he was bothered to be there in the first place, and then he goes and hands
the money to Feldman.
That was just a little off the wall, I thought.
It was very touching.
I mean, he demonized his character, and then all of a sudden, hey, he's not so bad after
all.
Yeah, he called him pariah.
Yeah.
And the funny thing is about that scene is he knew darn well that it was Feldman who
had diagnosed it and he deserved it.
But had he just given it to the other guy, you know, had he had that much disdain for the
pariah because he's, and because you're supposed to, he could have given it to the other guy
and Woodman have done about it.
You know, he couldn't have raised his, you know, anyone, anyone, yeah, which is part
of the reason why I was surprised that he didn't give him to the attendant in the first
place.
Yeah.
That's a really good point.
So, okay, so how about the second trial?
I think that the second trial came out and it took how, you know, you thought that the
same kind of thing made it might happen again inside the second trial.
And then you just got blown away in there.
Yeah.
And I thought that really brought out the point that the Aussent trying to make him invincible.
Well, it's got rescued from space, but yeah, he did, he got, he got just, I mean, crucified
in that courtroom.
Yeah.
I mean, you listened to that and you thought it was all over at that point.
Well, I kind of knew it wasn't all over because there was many more chapters.
You can't do that, and sorry.
Those could have been five or six, you know, completely blank sets of minutes where he
just sits there and says, yeah, the book's over.
Sorry, guys, you killed him after the trial, you know, it could have been the limitation
of the women.
It could have been, I mean, it could also have been, and across my mind, it could have been
that they actually went ahead and killed them.
And somebody else, like me ex-wife, picked up where he left off and totally changed
character or something, but he didn't go like that.
I thought that trial, the second trial was just a farce, it wasn't even worth calling
it a trial.
Well, it wasn't a trial, it was a, let's just put them to death.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think the point of it was to make it look like a trial.
I think the point of it was to show that it wasn't.
I mean, to start off your first piece of evidence was, you know, a tape that had been
doctored and the original of this tape wasn't submitted or allowed.
Oh, now there was another piece of evidence, and I was going to say, I thought the first
piece of evidence was the brachyweed.
Yes, he was addicted.
Yeah, I thought that didn't come on to second or third piece, but I think that's, you
know, that's not really that much of a piece, but you made me think of it.
And the judge was just like, yep, I've tasted it, he's got to be addicted to even, to
even stand it.
It was the same judge from before, wasn't it?
No, no.
Oh, okay, okay.
The first judge was, I said he could have been Jake's brother, and they never cleared
it up, but I suspect he probably was.
And the second was a medical lobby judge.
Oh, gotcha, and the first one was a space lobby, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, unless Mars had some lobby of its own.
Which by the way, okay, the two lobbies, right?
Medical in space.
They were in space six month trip in each direction.
There's no fuel lobby.
Come on, he missed that one, because if you look at the lobbies that we have today that
really control stuff, you're talking about medical in the form of the drug industry and
oil, big oil.
I mean, those are the two really big lobbies today.
So I mean, it's 2020 hindsight, but I don't know, on it was before the gas crunch, too,
wasn't it?
Yes.
I think it was a big lobby back then, too, wasn't it?
I mean, not as big as it is today, but still, I read Movy Dick.
It was a big lobby when they were taking oil out of whales.
So you could be right.
I mean, you just want an all packed into the short story now, Poke, don't you?
You're not happy.
No, I'm happy.
I just, I just, we're on this podcast to talk about what about the food lobby, so they
had to eat.
And it's really, well, they had, they had synthesized food, it did be two food loss.
And they did mention them big farm, big farm was the first big lobby.
That's true, they did.
I'm sure there was a few lobby in there, but it probably didn't seem relevant to him
to put into the story.
It was like six guys mixing up their own plutonium at home.
That's it.
Yeah.
Yes.
But they said it used oil still.
Well, no, because that's what the two of men did was they replaced the tiles that were
the fuel that got burnt up, I think.
Were they the fuel or was that, I was wondering about that, the tiles that they were talking
about.
I said that was to contain, check the ship from the heat of the fuel.
I didn't see it that way.
What did you think, integral?
You know, I didn't really catch what the tubes were there for, but I don't know that
much about space freighters, so I just kind of passed it on to a dangerous job that needed
to be done.
Yeah.
So, okay, now again, I thought what they were, I thought they were the fuel and I thought
they wore out and it was some kind of impulse that made them go.
I thought it was just like impulse, whatever tiny vehicles came out of those tiles between
all the tubes, you know, added up to some great amount.
But I didn't even think, because they were inside the tubes working on them, all the
thing was going.
It never occurred to me that they might just shut off a rocket engine.
Well, let me see here.
But that other one blew up.
That's why I think they were live.
That's why, you know what I mean?
Said they were like radiation in the tubes, too.
Let's see, you're building one now, Dan.
Yeah, I'm working on it right now.
Excellent.
All right, integral, any other thoughts now that you've heard bar theories?
Shuttle magic.
Well, but I'm looking out here right now.
Greenhorn, ain't shit.
Okay, I'll take you with me.
We go into the tubes and pull the lining.
I pry up the stuff and you got here and stack it.
So I didn't think that that was actually the fuel.
It was what lined the tubes and was mildly radioactive.
And whatever it is that the tubes did, they took the tiles back and they melted them down
again and made new tiles out of them.
So I didn't think that that was actually the fuel, because I'm reading the book right
and reading through the book right now, trying to get a better feel on that.
Yeah, you can get it for free.
That makes me think now that they're more like maybe the tiles on the space shuttle, because
they replace those things every trip in real life, you know, underbelly the space shuttles
like all these tiles.
Yeah, I thought it was too, it was something to shield the ship from the radio activity
and the heat and whatever, because they didn't make a point of saying that, you know, the
people inside the center of the ship with the gravity and everything, they had like it
was luxurious compared to what the tube meant and they were just living in hell.
You know, you think about it, they have all these lobbies, you know, the doctors, the
farming lobby and the space lobby, but yet here are these groups of people that are integral
to interstellar travel that they just treat like dirt, like insects, you know, who cares
whether they own out of the tube, there's no safety for these guys, they live in such
hard conditions, I mean, it's, it's, and yet here they are toiling away to make a living
here and maybe get a farmer or ranch somewhere after six or seven months or six or seven
tours.
Yeah, but I think that the, the space lobby was more like the spacing guild from Dune
and less like a Tupeman's lobby.
Right, but I would think that such an important job, there would have been a lobby that
got up around that.
Yeah, they would have built up for protection of their rights and lives.
Right.
I don't know where, no way.
The medical lobby hung one of their own, one of their very top guys out to dry and seemed
to enjoy it.
There's no way anyone stand these peons or even listen to them when they band together.
I just, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's like the corporations we have now, you know, all these big corporations don't care
about any person.
See, notice how neither of us are responding because we don't want to get fired.
Right.
Well, you both think I'm full of BS.
I'd love to hear.
What do you think, fire?
This is, this is hacker public radio's podcast.
You guys could fire me.
Well, I don't mean from the podcast.
I think I mean from, you know, our job, our jobs with the corporate America.
You know, they don't care about the workers according to you.
They try the people on Mars like crap too.
So I guess it comes as no surprise.
And he was calm, calm and see that still go on.
I just surprise it wasn't like some kind of lobby for them.
I think that was kind of the point of the whole book was that these two lobbies had gained
so much power.
There wasn't in the opportunity for a third lobby to step in.
You know, think modern day Democrats and Republicans and even a tea party, even, you know, a concerted
effort by real people has zero effect without some outside influence.
Well, it was evil bunch of people.
They were evil.
They were evil.
And, you know, you've mentioned, or I get which one you just mentioned a moment ago,
how they treated the people on Mars.
That was incredible.
You know, I mean, the whole time, like they weren't even people to them.
All these like real human beings on Mars.
If we can't control it, we're going to blow it up.
We're going to take our ball and go home.
You know, I mean, that was crazy and totally, totally believable.
It was until until they realized that the cure for the disease was on Mars, then they had
a bargaining chip.
Yep, it was on Mars and he made a point to mention that it would take him 10 years to
create it on the road.
So yeah, I think that was the only thing that ended up in them at all.
Yeah, yeah.
What definitely was.
You guys think we're nearing the end here?
I think so.
I think we should cover the quality of the audio in all at least a little bit of this
one.
Yeah.
Or all of the, yeah, the reading.
That guy is fantastic.
Yeah, I thought he did a really good job.
I've heard him read one other audio book, one that he had written himself and he, his
voice and selection, like at no point did I ever mix up two characters.
Yeah, which was really awesome.
Because occasionally you'll hear if it's like the author reading it, they'll slip into
a different character or even if it's somebody that practices it all the time.
Sometimes you'll just catch that slight tinge and I didn't hear that at all with this
guy.
He really gave life to each of the individual characters.
Jake, especially, I thought.
Yeah, Jake was the guy that I was cheering for for the whole book even with Feldman.
Really?
He was your guy, huh?
Yeah.
I liked Jake.
How did you feel at the end when he became the president or likely the president?
I think he'll make a better revolutionary than president.
You think so?
It's going to fall apart under his rule.
Yeah.
Why is that?
Well, when you get somebody that's such an idealist like that, I mean, he was a real
idealist as well, but he knew it happened.
It doesn't necessarily mean he'll know how to do it.
I kind of thought that the point was made when they offered Feldman.
He offered Feldman in that position and he turned it down.
And they were shocked that he's down.
Were you?
No, that's not who Feldman is.
I know.
I wasn't surprised at all.
That part was like, what?
Why'd you even offer?
Yeah, right.
And maybe to be nice, you'd be like, hey, you know, since you saved us, do you want this?
See in that case, he's have taken it and then, you know, they would have been like, oh,
we expect you to turn it down and I mean, if they're going to screw with you.
What are you going to say, Dan?
I was going to say that I was, I thought the quality of this was really, really forget
awesome too.
It was good stuff.
He did a great job.
Yeah, he did, he did a good job reading and I swear he read it like each chapter all
in one take because I didn't hear any transitions.
I didn't hear any splicing together where he might have, you know, done the whole chapter
in one voice and done it again in another voice.
That's what I would do.
If I had to do that, I didn't hear any of that from him.
Yeah, usually you'll hear some sort of error or correction or something.
It's really surprising they're not here that.
Oh, yeah, not even, not even like where he would splice in a word or a chapter.
Oh, no, I'm in chapter like a paragraph.
But Nathan Lowell explained that one on Tiltz, didn't he, Dan?
Yes, he talked about that.
How did he explain it?
I don't remember.
He said that if he made a mistake on a word, instead of re-recording the word, would
re-record the whole paragraph so that the background noises and the acoustic of the recording
area are not as obvious.
Okay, that makes some vents.
Yeah, that was like a lift in the kimono moment that was great.
Then I think the guy that read this book, if he didn't do some of that, then he's just
an amazing, amazing reader because his work is incredible.
Yeah, he's really good.
I would like to read more by him.
Dan.
Yeah, and he's done a lot more.
He actually is part of what seems to be a performing troupe.
They have a lot of other stuff that they do.
They have a whole series called the Arbiter Chronicles and one of the audiobooks of theirs,
I listen to it.
There's two audiobooks and then a whole series of individual chapters and adventures, and
the one that I listened to was fantastic.
That was called Taken Liberty.
That was great.
Did you say faking, making, or bacon Liberty?
I think he said pagan.
Oh, pagan.
Well, I missed the ball on that all together.
I think I said taken.
Oh, taken.
Well, then I missed the ball as soon they took someone's Liberty.
Ah, nothing to do with bacon, delicious bacon.
I think we can all raise a glass to bacon.
Agreed, little bacon.
And I don't mean Kevin.
Not Francis, either.
Norjano.
Chado.
The way off topic again.
Yeah, but you know what, I can bring it back.
Because when they closed the book and I thought this was fantastic, especially for being
as long as it was, he mentioned that that once they had resolved the issue and research
was going to happen again, that the shared knowledge that came out of that was going
to be what livid people, you know, earth and ours, then they mentioned that liberation,
you know, freedom wasn't going to last.
He knew that, which was, which was real interesting, I thought, but that the sharing of information
would, and this was 73, and now we have the internet, and it's really, in a lot of cases,
the only for half.
True.
Well, for now.
Yeah, definitely.
And if we let it go, then we lose it, I mean, just like they did.
Probably interested to read more from this guy.
Well, it's two guys.
Are you talking about Lester Del Rey?
Are you talking about the guy?
Yeah, Lester Del Rey.
I'd like to know what you think of him if you do read it.
Let me see if he has any more books on Project Gutenberg.
So is that it for this book?
Did you guys have anything else to say about this one?
I think that's about it.
Dan?
I think I said, I really enjoyed it, and I hope that anybody listening to this has already
gone out and read it.
Yeah, yeah, they should have at this point, and if we just spoiled the book for someone
who didn't read it, I hope we did a good job convincing them that it's actually spoiled
and not just man.
I'd also like to say that the picture of Lester Del Rey on his Wikipedia page, he's got
an awesome beard.
That picture is fantastic.
So did you have in mind our next audio book?
Oh, I know you do, you've been...
Who me?
No, no, I picked this one.
This is between the two of you guys.
Which one do you think he's talking about, Dan?
Oh, I thought he was going to go with Shadow Magic.
Well, I'm not picking the book, but Dan, what was your suggestion?
I don't mind going with Shadow Magic, because I started that with my family on the way up
from my mother-in-law's place, and I think we're going to restart it when I go up to my
parents this weekend and hopefully finish it, so I don't mind doing that.
Okay, that sounds alright to me.
Yeah, I think we're all in then, I've started it with my kids, and they love it.
Well, I can definitely see why it's one of the best books I've heard in a while.
Yeah, it's definitely one of the best, it's one of the best audio books, it's presented
so well.
And like you said before, the way he says the name of the book, I mean, that just makes
you want to listen to it more and more and more.
I swear when he says Shadow Magic and the way he says it, I can feel my heart rate increase.
Yeah, same here, it just makes you excited.
I would suggest to anyone listening to this, even considering listening to another audio
that they check out the first chapter of Shadow Magic, and if they're not sold by the
end of the first chapter, give another chapter, and do that like 30 times.
Yeah, definitely, because you'll get into it.
30 times.
Now, one thing I want to mention though, if people are interested in checking out Shadow
Magic with their families, with their kids, there are a couple of hells and dams in
there, and I think maybe an ass or two where he goes ass over to get it.
So if you're going to listen to that with your kids, if that's not okay, then watch
out for that.
I don't want anybody thinking we're recommending that and then get mad at us.
Would you listen to the adjuvant for me with your kids?
I think my kids are a little young for it.
I think the language is definitely appropriate for kids at age, content wise, and that's
weird because I'm completely fascinated by it, like you said, I couldn't stop listening
to it.
Yeah, it was definitely one that I didn't put down, I listened all the way through and
then listened to it again.
So do you guys, are you both into politics?
Yeah.
Not as much as I should be.
So what kept you into the book then, Dan?
The politics.
Really?
It was just...
Well, I mean, it wasn't just the politics, it was the character that old, you know, here's
the pride of the downtrodden guy, you know, the underdog trying to do what's right, rar,
rar, rar, rar, they just fighting against the power, sticking it to the man.
Can't imagine a Linux guy liking that.
Oh, that's really far afield, Dan.
I know, it shocked me too.
That's what blew me away that I enjoyed that so much.
Sounds like an Apple fanboy describing the book.
Yeah, well, that's the way I felt.
Well you know what, it was the man gets knocked down and then rises back up to be the man
again.
That's the way it is.
That's the Apple story.
So it's the Steve Jobs story, he gets to see this.
That's it.
Oh boy.
Yeah, I think we're done here.
Thanks everyone for listening to our inaugural audio book club show.
We hope you'll join us again for the next one, which will be Shadow Magic by John Lennahan.
On behalf of myself, thank you very much.
You guys.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you very much.
Now that's just the first book of Shadow Magic, right?
Not the second book, though.
We'll go down to Shadow Magic, not the Prince of Hazel and O'Kill.
You already know, I don't know what the name of the book is, second book.
It just finished, too.
Yep.
Last week you just only compared to this one compared to other books that are not too
terribly long.
I mean, there's a lot of chapters, but they're short.
Yeah, especially inside the second book, the chapters are progressively shorter than
inside the first book and they don't cover as much.
You want to give the people a teaser, integral?
The teaser?
Yeah, the teaser.
For Shadow Magic, what are they in for?
They're in for a hilarious fantasy adventure written by a real magician.
So he knows what he's talking about when it comes to escaping from chains, making things
disappear in people vanishing and puffs of smoke.
It will make you laugh on nearly every page track, but it will also sweep you with a wonderful
story of courage, friendship, and destiny.
That was astonishing.
I don't know.
I know.
I just can't look at it without off the cuff.
I'm awesome like that.
Thanks everyone for listening.
It's been a real pleasure working with you, integral, and with you, Dan, on this podcast
that we've done.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Thanks for having us, folks.
Yeah, integral.
You have a podcast, too.
It's very good.
Where can we find that?
You can find it at techmisfits.com.
And Dan, you are a podcast legend, especially in the Linux community.
And if people don't know where to find your podcast, we will vlog them and then they can
go where?
Linux into how?
Yeah.
That'll work.
Excellent.
T-L-L-T-S.
That'll work.
Stay everyone for listening.
Until next time, have a great time and join Shadow Magic.
Hello, my name is Connor.
A while back, my dad and I got attacked in our living rooms by some lunatics on horseback.
And they kidnapped us and took us to tune a note, the mystical land of the ancient
Celts, where I found out that pop was the usurped heir to the throne.
My mother was an outlaw sorceress and everyone in the land wanted me dead because of some
ancient prophecy.
I mean, don't you just hate when that happens?
I'm really John Lennahan, the author and reader of Shadow Magic, a new pod novel on podiobooks.com.
Shadow Magic is a rip-roaring old school fantasy adventure, very, very loosely based on Irish
mythology.
So, have a listen to Shadow Magic and join Connor as he grapples with typical teenage problems
like how to deal with a father's high expectations, how to crash a party full of immortals, and
how to get a date with a beautiful girl who literally wants your dead.
Shadow Magic is a podcast novel for young adults from 12 to 112, find it on podiobooks.com
or my website, shadowmagic.co.uk, where the bad guys were black and the good guys were
next.
And yes, I am the same John Lennahan, who was the voice of the talking toaster on Red
and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice
the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the talking toaster on Red and I am the voice of the speaking voice of the superheroes in the present world.