hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr0834.txt

Episode: 834
Title: HPR0834: The Knightcast KC0056 : Best of KWTV Live
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr0834/hpr0834.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-08 03:20:40

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On the edge of real and cyberspace, there's one place you can go.
On the edge of real and cyberspace, there's one place you can go, and you found it.
Welcome to The Nightcast, the one and only podcast that tunes tech into your way of life, and lets that technology work for you.
My name is Nightwise, and for the coming 60 minutes or even more, I'll be your host on this episode of The Nightcast KC-0056, best of KWTV Live.
For more information and the show notes, please head on over to www.nightwise.com, that's K9GHTWISE.com,
where you'll find the links to everything we talk about and a place to plop down your feedback.
Make sure to check out the Nightwise.com media feed, subscribe to this feed, and get all of the Nightwise.com content,
The Nightcast Podcasts, Screencasts, and OQCasts delivered to your pod catcher automatically letting technology work for you.
If you want to get in touch with us, you can, good old email, feedback at nightwise.com, or Twitter,
twitter.com slash nightwise, or use the hashtag hash deer nightwise.
Facebook, you can also join us there, facebook.com slash nightwise.com, and you can look for nightwise on Google Plus.
Many, many ways to get in touch with us.
Hey guys and girls, how are you today?
It's a very rainy Saturday afternoon here in Belgium, and I decided to plop myself down
behind the computer for a change, so this is not going to be one of those episodes recorded on the road.
To give you this week's episode, KC00056BestOfNightwise.com, NightLive, KWTVLive,
would actually be the title, BestOfKWTVLive, I'm kind of messing up my own brand here.
So what do I have for you today?
Well, today I have an excerpt for you of three interviews that I did in September.
I think it was September 23rd.
When we did RKWTV live show, if you don't know what that is, once a month.
I do a live show, a four hour live show, where we play music, interview guests,
and interact with our guests in the chat room all on nightwise.com slash night live.
You can come along, our next appointment will be on October 21st, from 8 to 1 p.m.
From 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. GMT plus 1 on October 21st.
And then again, we will have interesting guests, a very busy chat room, and a lot of fun.
So for those of you who couldn't attend, because you know, time zone, spinning over the globe,
or you were otherwise occupied, I can't see you had anything more important to do
than join KWTVLive on our airing, but that's okay.
We have three interviews of the four interviews that we did for you today.
So I'm going to keep this very short and very sweet.
I have a beautiful lineup for you of three interesting guests talking about three interesting things.
First of all, we have Larry Busci of the going Linux podcast, who's going to talk about Linux
and what's wrong with Linux.
Next up, we'll have Katie Murray of the AGP podcast coming to talk to us about Windows 8.
And I also have Bart Bouchatz from BartBE.ie and also known from the chit chat across the pond session on the NoCillaCast.
Coming to talk about a lion.
So a real sliders or derver, as the French say, a real sliders buffet for all of you Mac Linux or Windows using techno files out there.
So let's keep this short and sweet.
Let's take it one step further.
Let's dig out the recordings of the recordings that we did on KWTVLive and I'll see you on the flip side.
Welcome to the digital revolution.
On the edge of real and cyberspace, there's one place you need to go for my cost.
Absolutely fantastic track by Triton.
Sorry for cutting out the audio feed on you guys over there for a second.
Chad Room's still nice and full.
As you can see, I've piped through my entire desktop.
The man in the top left corner there is Larry Bushee and he's our first guest on the night cast today.
Larry, do you hear us?
I can hear you fine. Can you hear me night wise?
Yes, yes, the wonders of technology still brings you back to the Stone Age where we still have to say, can you hear me?
Yes, we can hear each other.
Hello, Larry. It's great to have you here.
It's really funny. I've got your video feed.
You don't have my video feed, but that has to do with several computers and cameras here, but that's okay.
The viewers of KWTVLive see the man on the screen.
This is Larry Bushee, ladies and gentlemen, one of the great podcasters, one of the great Linux podcasters.
A man that is so great that he has a bee in front of his name, the Larry Bushee.
This one again, awesome to have him here on the show today talking about Linux.
Larry, how are you? How have you been?
I have been wonderful. It's been way too long and thank you for having me on the show and I'll tell you this is the first time I have podcast video.
So thank you.
Okay.
We're breaking new ground.
Yes, we see the numbers in the chat room declining as we speak.
We might need to switch back to audio only.
That's normally the way it happens.
Okay.
Larry, what we want to talk to you today about is Linux.
But first we're going to, of course, situate you in the eco sphere.
Who is Larry Bushee?
What does he actually do and what does he have to do with Linux?
Well, I'm just some guy off the street that knows nothing about computers.
No, no.
I am the creator in the host of the going Linux podcast.
I have a co-host, Tom, who helps me three times a month.
Provide some assistants to listeners to the podcast who are trying to build their confidence and competence in using Linux.
Or they're trying Linux for the first time and they just need some assistance to get over that hurdle to get away from the windows environment or the mac environment or to use them in a dual boot fashion.
But one way or another, they're looking to us.
Tom and me for some help.
And we answer listener questions.
We delve into some topics about Linux or Linux applications or just how to use your computer.
More effectively to get things done.
One of the things that I always wanted to know is you have been in Linux for how you have been into Linux for how long now?
Oh, let's see.
Probably four to five years.
Okay.
Four or five, not 45, four or five.
45 years of Linux.
He's just about written the kernel when it wasn't even invented yet.
It hasn't been invented. That's right.
Okay. We're going to cut into today's topic.
And it's an unusual one that I have also devoted an entire podcast to to actually talk about what's wrong with Linux these days.
If we were to really ask not somebody who hates Linux but somebody who likes Linux to sum up just some things that you know you think is wrong with Linux or the Linux community that might be holding it back to becoming mainstream or things that are ready for improvement.
Normally, if you talk to an advocate like that, it's not always very obvious that they will give you a straight answer.
But I know that you are a man of straight answers and that's why I asked you here today.
What would you say if you just off the top of your head would be the well, I don't know, the four or five things that according to you are actually wrong with Linux.
Okay. I gave some thought to this actually and one of the things that I thought at first is and I hear this complaint a lot, but I don't agree.
I don't agree that this is what's holding back Linux. So let me get those things out of the way there are a couple of things.
First of all, I hear games.
For those of you who want to play games on Linux, go get an Xbox or a Wii or some game console and go play your games.
I don't care. You know, Linux is yes, there are some nice games for Linux. Yes, there are.
But that's not holding Linux back in terms of its adoption among some people maybe the other thing I hear is lack of hardware support.
Well, lack of hardware support like printers, like displays, like mice, like keyboards, not really.
I think that there is a bit of a delay for supporting new hardware.
But the Linux community is pretty quick at creating drivers for proprietary systems where the manufacturer doesn't create those drivers right away.
Certainly they're going to create them for for windows, but I really don't see much difference between the degree of support that Linux has versus the Mac has, for example, now the Mac's not going to support every piece of PC hardware that's out there either.
You have to buy something that's Mac compatible, same thing with Linux. You need to buy something that's Linux compatible.
So although that may be just a little bit contributing to lack of adoption of Linux, I really don't think that that's what's wrong with Linux.
What's wrong with Linux in my opinion is number one marketing and number two, the way we do go about marketing Linux.
Let me talk about that for a second.
First of all, the marketing that I see coming from companies like Canonical and Red Hat and even Susa has a big focus on enterprise, meaning corporations.
And those are the people that are going to pay the bills. And so it's natural for them to focus on servers to focus on corporations, not so much the desktop for the desktop user.
And I really see the fact that if we were to have the funding to be able to market more aggressively, like windows markets on TV with ad placements on on the radio for goodness sake.
And then we have a news paper in the flyers and ads that you get from the from the big box stores to buy your computers on the computers themselves.
If Linux were to have the kind of money, the advertising budget, I think it would be much more adopted. So that's number one.
And along with number one, I think that because Linux doesn't get the exposure.
Linux still has to some degree a bit of a not so much anymore, but it has come from roots that have made it an operating system for geeks by geeks.
And so because we're not marketing it differently, it still has that reputation among average users among Linux users who've been using it for a while or even those enthusiasts who are just getting into it, they quickly realize that this is not just a server based operating system.
It is truly for the average user out there.
So that's more like an image problem is like Linux is for the nerdy beardy types.
Right. Exactly. And so we've kind of reinforced that image by not advertising it differently, by not promoting it differently.
And let's face it, the people who are promoting Linux are the people who have developed it.
And typically those are the computer enthusiasts, right. And those are the people who are the nerds who want to promote it because they know it's the best thing out there.
And it's like beta versus VC VHS when the old days of, you know, analog tapes. Everyone knew that beta was better, but VHS got the better publicity and it actually went out overall.
So the nerds lost out and the geeks lost out from the technical perspective. And if we're not careful, we'll end up with the same sort of thing with Linux.
So go ahead. Is it speaking about that that Linux was for the nerds and the and the geeks in the beginning.
Yeah.
A lot has changed over the last few years. The community has become much more open. But I sometimes pose myself the question that on the one hand, on one hand, the Linux enthusiast and the geeks and the nerds want Linux to go mainstream.
I mean, 2012, the year of the Linux desktop. We've had it. We've learned about it a few times. Yet when we see distributions of Linux, like, for example, let's say,
Ubuntu, take a more end user like strategy into their functionalities, like, for example, making things easier and more accessible.
Suddenly, those same enthusiasts go like, yeah, you're dumbing it down and it's not supposed to be like that. So there's a duality there. Can you elaborate on that?
Where did that where did that come from? Or why does that still exist?
Well, it's you're absolutely right that when the user interface becomes simpler and easier to use, the enthusiasts are saying, well, it's too easy to use.
You know, we don't need it. That dumbed down. And I think there needs to be a happy medium in there that we need to have the simple, easy to use.
Mackish, dare I say, user interface that is geared for the person who wants to have something that they can just intuitively learn to use.
And yet we still need behind the scenes, the kinds of computing power, the command line, the raw power behind Linux still there so that if someone wants it, it's there.
And in fact, we have that today with things like Linux Mint, Ubuntu, and many of the distributions have done an excellent job of making an intuitive user interface that does get criticism, especially Ubuntu these days, because they've gone a little off the deep end.
And I don't think they're so much making trying to make it easier to use as it is more comfortable to use on a touch screen.
And so by going in that direction, they've gotten a lot of of a flack from the user community, but they were doing up until that point.
I think they were doing an excellent job of developing a user interface that looked easy to use. And in fact, was easy to use.
And I think Linux Mint has taken up that mantra now. And I think we were on the right track. And while Linux Mint is taking up the mantra on the easy to use, Ubuntu will get better at developing what they're developing.
And perhaps realize that, okay, there's the touch interface, but not everyone has a touch interface. So we really need to be able to run this on a computer that has a mouse and a keyboard as well.
And so I think we'll see things change a little bit. So that kind of illustrates one of the things as well that's holding Linux back is the fact that it is very fragmented.
There are so many choices, not just with distributions, but also within a distribution, what am I going to use for my desktop? What am I going to use for a window manager?
What's the theme going to be? And for a new user who sees all these things coming at them from the Linux geek who wants to show it off with the wobbly windows and the spinning cube, they get very intimidated.
And it looks very complicated. And so we need as Linux community to realize that some people just want to be able to push the button, turn on the computer, check their email, move the window around without it wobbling all over the place.
And go on to Facebook or whatever it and then shut off the computer. That's all they want to do with it needs to be simple and easy for those people to use if we want it to be mainstream.
And I think we're getting there. It's just we've got a little ways to go.
Looking back at the roots of Linux back to that geek and nerd deep core Linux.
Meanwhile, the chat room is going absolutely crazy and we'll get to their comments and questions in a little bit. Thank you guys in there and girls.
And they're all arguing with me. I'm sure.
Well, they are well, yeah, they're just about agreeing with you. But if we take a look at the deep nerd and deep geek core roots of things like like Linux.
And we take a look at its community founders like Linux store vols and and Richard Marie Stahlman.
Are these guys so many years into Linux still relevant?
Very, very good question. You know, I think they are very relevant. They are the founders. They are the canoe and they are the Linux.
And they represent they have the potential to represent the they can represent what Bill Bill Gates represents for windows and what Steve Jobs represents for Macintosh is the icon, the personification of the icon of the operating system as its developers.
Unfortunately, and this is the other thing that I think is holding us back is the fact that the primary spokespeople and I'm not talking about.
And then it's Torvalds at this point. I'm talking about Richard Stahlman. The primary spokespeople for new Linux are Richard Stahlman and the.
Yeah, yeah, FF or FSF. Yeah, what a please, please Google that. FF or FSF.
Yeah, they are the spokespeople and unfortunately in promoting Linux, they use some very juvenile tactics. And so they resort to things like name calling.
And a name calling that's reminiscent of dirty politics, dirty politics campaign fought by kindergarteners. That's it exactly. It is very, very juvenile. And as a result, the people that are the most vocal who could potentially have a vast influence on the adoption of Linux are having a negative influence.
Because people don't take them seriously. I remember one of the one of the scenes of Richard Richard Marie Stahlman, as we should say, where he's actually attending a lecture, certainly suddenly takes off his shoe, picks something off his foot and eats it. Now that video has gone around the internet many, many, many times.
And if you do see them as the icons of of Linux, there is indeed, let's call it an image problem there. Yes, yes.
One of the other things is that one of the main spokespeople of of of of of Linux, Richard Ristahlman and the.
Thanks KD FSF software freedom foundation or food shoe foundation, as it also is called.
They actually don't want that mainstream adoption. If it were up to Richard Marie Stahlman, we would still, we would not be reading, we would not have passwords on our laptops. We would not have any proprietary software on our laptops. We would not visit the internet.
But email web pages to ourselves and that brings me to the point are, will those people still kind of steer the direction of Linux or or steer people away from Linux?
Well, right now I'm afraid that they're stirring people away from Linux and I don't mean to tar everyone with that organization with the same stick. It is, it is just a few that are driving them to this kind of behavior, but it's that kind of behavior that's driving people away. I'm afraid.
And I'm frankly embarrassed when, when I see some of the things that they've resorted to on their web page in an attempt to, I applaud them for sticking to their, their principles.
They are very good at sticking to their principles, but they should never, never, never resort to the kind of juvenile tactics that they're using because that just.
Undercuts their credibility and any gains that they make by standing by their principles, they have lost immediately as soon as people hear the tone of their message and hear how the message is delivered.
It's a good message. It's just how the words are, are said that's the problem. And if we continue to allow that kind of behavior to be at the forefront of the promotion of Linux, I think we're doomed. I really think we're doomed.
We need, whether we use only open and free software or whether we take that middle ground and be more pragmatic or whether we take Linux and say, it should all be Android and it should be commercial software.
Where it doesn't matter. I think, I think we really need to turn the view of Linux to something that is a lot more mature, taking a lot more seriously and can be taken more seriously.
So I don't know how we do that, but I do know that in my opinion, the reason that Google has chosen not to call Android Linux, not to associate it overtly in any way with Linux, although it's based on Linux.
It is definitely based on Linux. They've chosen a brand name that they can market and look at what they have done with it in such a small period of time. Certainly the market for the hardware is out there, but without a good operating system on that hardware, they would never have been able to have it on more devices, counting phones now, not just tablets, more devices than windows is on.
In such a short period of time.
Indeed. I mean, we almost, it's amazing to see the adoption of something that is based on Linux, just marketed in a different way. If we go back two years to the little netbook here behind me, when the net, the netbooks came out, everybody thought this is going to be the big break for Linux.
And that also didn't really pull through. What do you think was the reason that the netbook revolution didn't bring Linux to the forefront?
Well, I think there was a little bit of a push to have these netbooks so slimmed down that they were actually underpowered, and that underpowered performance, first of all, gave Linux a bad reputation, or maybe that's too strong, but certainly put the wrong spin on Linux that it wasn't really working too well.
And also, I think that just throwing Linux at people without any sort of warning that it's going to be different from windows, because they were expecting windows, they definitely are because that's all that they've ever seen other than the Mac users, of course, and Apple didn't put out the netbooks. So we know it's not Mac.
So it must be windows. And when they open it up and they see, okay, it kind of looks kind of funky. It's not working right. I can't install any software. Nobody told them that it's not windows.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there was a different expectance there of what they were going to get out of the box. Right.
Poor poor management of expectations. And to make it worse, the very first netbooks came out with
hampered and restricted version of Linux. I had my hands on one of the very first aces. Was it aces? No, acer.
Yeah, one of them. I forget which one that had triply was the first one. And then the acer, acer aspires came out.
It was an acer aspire that I had. And I forget what version of Linux they had on it. But it was so locked down, you couldn't install Linux software on that thing.
And I know the later ones came out a little more unlocked than that. And then they started putting windows on it. And then windows was way too sluggish.
So then they started putting on windows seven starter version, which was again locked down. You couldn't even change the wallpaper on that version of windows.
But by that time Linux had lost the leg up that it had by being on that device to begin with. So again, very poor marketing job.
But let's say that let's let's walk into a parallel universe where those netbooks actually had been tablets and that Linux interface on there had actually been something like Ubuntu today, which is well tablet friendly.
It would have brought us to the point where we are today where there is a version of Linux on those tablets and that version of Linux is called Android.
So in fact, it is the year of the Linux desktop or is it not?
So this is the second chance that most companies and most organizations and most products don't get this is that second chance. And we have Google to thank for that.
And we have the tablet revolution to thank for that. And I don't I think I remember you saying that you had your hands on a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.
Correct. Yep. Yep. Yep. I've I've had my hands on Motorola Zoom, a Samsung Galaxy Tab and an ACES EE transformer, all of them running honeycomb 30 or three or one.
I own a Galaxy Tab 10 inch from Samsung and I tell you it is hands down the best touch screen device I have ever used and I have used a few I have used a an iPad I have used some of the early touch screen laptops that were convertible laptops and Android hands down the best.
There are some negly little things that don't quite work the way I would expect them to but for the most part this is the device that you saw on Star Trek next generation.
I want to round up with with an interesting question that I'm going to post to all of my guests today as we see the future evolve.
There is a path that can be taken where our tablets or our phones will become our main computers and that which we will dock to a keyboard and a screen or to a larger screen to become a tablet or to a keyboard and a screen to become a computer.
We are going towards a one personal device that does it all is this will this be the big break for Linux.
I think so I really do think so however I don't think it will be docked to a keyboard maybe the interim version you know the short term version might be that but I really think we need to get to that communicator phase.
Good taking the Star Trek reference a little bit further where the computer is voice recognition voice command and that I think is where if you look at what Google is trying to do on their phones with Android on the tablet with Android.
The searches are voice enabled it's not perfect yet and it doesn't apply to the entire user interface but it's starting that revolution is starting and I think as we go down that path further and as voice recognition becomes better and better and better.
We will eventually get to the point where as Scotty said on one of the early episodes of or maybe it was one of the Star Trek movies.
Hello come on yes a mouse how quaint.
I get to the point I know we've arrived and I bet that computer will be running Linux or some successor to Linux.
I really hope so I know it won't be running windows that is true do you still see in in in three years time that there will be desktop operating systems and phone operating systems and tablet operating systems or will they merge.
I can't really see that far ahead I think three years there might just still be that fragmentation I think there will probably be some advances in the tablets not so much advances in the desktop computer hardware even the laptop computer hardware.
The phones yes I think there will be some advances there and I think that the phones and the tablets might merge a little closer together although they're very close together now.
And I think we will see a lot more especially on the phones a lot more voice control which will lead to voice control on the larger devices which will lead to full-fledged computing using voice only.
And I think it'll take us a little longer than three years to get there but we'll be closer and I think there will still in three years be the need for a computing device operating system for each of those platforms phone tablet and computer maybe phones and tablets in three years will be merged but maybe not.
Okay Larry thank you so much for your time it's been once again great having you always welcome guest on the on the night cast on KWTV live for people who don't know what going Linux is what where can they find you and what was the show about again.
It is about let's see what was it oh Linux and it is about using Linux to get things done learning how to use Linux converting from another operating system to Linux and having us help you find your way around navigate through the quagmire of learning anything new.
And helping you to do that you can find us at our website which is going linux.com you can find us on Twitter and Identica as going linux and on Google plus we are Larry Bushy.
Oh yeah Google no branding there Google hasn't caught up to me but if they do I'll just change my real name to night wise or I'll I'll make it into Mike Lowry or something
I don't know we'll see Larry thanks again for coming on the show it's been an honor and a pleasure having you and we hope to see you soon ongoing Linux thank you Larry.
Thank you.
Hello Katie Murray welcome to KWTV live we're in
the second hour it has come to the point of 10 am here in Belgium GMT plus one where you are it's in the dead of night here in Canada if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah it's five after one oh and but you are a nocturnal man are you not just a little just a little just a little thanks for staying up for KWTV live as you might have heard we just had Larry Bushy live on the show and his even the video stream of Larry we pipe through was so awesome it completely crashed camera one so we are a little bit stuck with camera to hear the eyesight cam on the iMac that's doing the production.
So I did to have to do some reorganizing sorry about that so no video stream of Katie I'm afraid because somehow cam twist you stream producer and a couple of mixers just doesn't seem to be able to handle that Katie good to have you here how are you doing pretty good.
Okay Katie what I wanted to talk to you about today you are one of the few people I know that are really into the windows world you are windows developer if I'm not mistaken.
Yep that's correct and as a result of as a direct result of that you have also gotten access to the windows developer preview of windows eight.
I have I have only had a chance to play with the virtual machine version of it so I haven't I don't actually get a chance to play with the hardware I don't go to things like the build conference or that sort of thing but I yeah I've had a little bit of a play with the with the VM version of the windows eight developer preview.
So windows has been well windows seven was not that bad but windows has been out of the running for quite a while when it came down to innovation but now they're back and they have a complete new strategy they they pump out betas before the developers get their hands on it so people can play with it.
What did you think before we get into the technical side of windows what did you think would would have sparked this new wave of innovation and and interacting with their user community like that in redmond.
And I'm highly sure what would have what would have sparked it.
It started to change about 2004 2005 when I think it's it's the people that they had involved they've got people particularly on the developer side of windows who have started to or of Microsoft rather who have started to embrace open source and embrace sort of engaging the community at a much different level.
Then they did previously for a long time windows was very much the operating system of the corporate world that everybody decided to use at home because they knew how to use it at work so they used it at home.
With the the advent of much stronger versions of the Mac with OS 10 and as it progressed in the early 2000s I think Microsoft realized that the writing was on the wall they still had a huge huge massive lead in the market.
But that was not going to hold forever unless they started to unless they really started to engage the community and engage the public in a different way.
They would eventually start to really fall by the wayside and and I think that was I think that was probably some of the some of what pushed them to do that.
Now looking at windows eight, where would you? Is it a logical successor to a window seven like window seven was a logical successor to vista and like vista was a logical successor to I don't know.
Yeah, vista was the logical successor to anything. Well, it wasn't it wasn't I mean it was a commercial failure.
It was the required interim step between XP and window seven.
I think to they needed that they needed that step to sort of figure out what was going to work and what wasn't going to work with all the new security features that they try to do.
I mean, you know, UAC was definitely something that was going to need more attention that we're going to be able to give it into in a private beta I think.
So it caused some pain by turning it at loose on the masses and it certainly wasn't the the success that they'd hope for. I'm sure.
But, you know, between the the feedback from that and their the additional time and window seven was a much better OS and windows eight is from what I've been able to see so far.
Windows seven with the new metro interface on topic doesn't look like the guts of the internals are as as overhauled as somebody might originally think if you just sort of look at the interface.
So what is the big special thing about windows eight at the moment.
So there I think there's two big changes with windows eight the first and most evident is the new UI.
So the old start menu by default anyway is gone and it's been replaced with the new metro interface that that's the name of the the tile based interface that resembles the windows phone seven.
And that's the the biggest sort of obvious change in windows eight. So when you first get your hands on it or in the case of people using a mouse in a VM get your first get your mouse on it.
You're getting this tablety interface and that is the the first sort of most obvious change the other big change is under the hood.
They have reject the application to or the OS to actually compile to arm processors as well, which is the type of chips that you find like apples a 4 to 5 chips are based on an arm processor.
So getting out of getting out of the Intel and AMD only world and moving to to a more a more generalized environment.
So once again we see that merging between tablet and windows operating system. So how do you how do you operate between a tablet and a PC operating system.
How do you operate this thing? I mean you you get it in your hands and you get this metro interface for people who haven't seen it yet. What does it look like?
Well I mean for those of anybody who's seen windows phone seven it looks like it looks like windows phone seven.
It is the the tile metro interface. So instead of having icons on the desktop like we have gotten used to with the other desktops and windows and Mac and Linux and even in iOS.
The the metro interface is tiles, which are in essence large icons which display information on them as well.
So you get kind of like a dashboard as a start menu, right? Yes, it's sort of like a cross between a dashboard and a start menu. So it's definitely the launching place for your applications, but the icons which you can launch your applications with are also have the ability to do that.
If you could display information we'd be it something simple like you know the number of unread emails or it could be on the larger tiles could be displaying a stream of tweets from a particular list on Twitter.
Okay, like for example the KWTV hashtag that people are using right now to to talk about the show and Twitter Twitter would be on your well is it your desktop or is it your start menu or is it both?
Exactly, it is sort of both in that it's a particularly if you're going to be using it in a tablet form factor, it would probably be your desktop most of the time.
The the metro interface allows you to to launch apps that are built against the the new windows run a time in our tea, which is the the the sort of layer of you know API that they've put together for metro.
But windows eight will also run you know full blown regular windows applications as well it'll just switch you out of the metro interface to run those so something like Photoshop will still run just fine on windows eight.
It just does run in the in the metro layer.
So it's almost like they've taken window seven and added this metro layer on top which has not only the the the dashboard with the tiles and everything but also is a layer to run applications.
So there's actually two versions of IE that will ship with windows eight at least that's what it looks like right now one of them run in the metro layer and that one has no flash no silver light no plugins of any kind it's there it's an HTML five sort of browsing interface much like the browser on the iOS devices.
But there will also be a sort of full in air quotes full version of IE that runs in the outside of metro which will still have flash and still have silver light and all those things in as well.
It's really strange because they I think you also mentioned that they built it for both Intel and ARM processors.
So let's just say I've got well I don't know can I have a desktop with an ARM processor I don't know who you can OK.
You will yeah you do will so the assuming there's a manufacturer out there who wants to build the desktop with an on processor.
You know there's one sort of one version of windows eight or at least that's what it looks like it'll be sort of but you won't have to choose.
You know if you buy an ARM device it'll come with you know windows eight on it if you buy an Intel device you can still have a preloader with windows eight.
But I'm not sure whether if you buy a retail box of windows eight I'm not sure whether there be like separate installed DVDs for the different CPS.
Yeah but if you because if we take a look at the talent world and mobile phones I mean installing things installing an operating system will become a lost art because it's when you buy it it's on there and you can't get it off or at least not without rooting or God knows what.
Yeah I mean you'd have to do like what you do with an Android device or with a with an iOS device and jailbreak it I guess if you wanted to to root it and install a different OS.
But I mean I guess presumably you would be able to do that with a windows eight tablet as well if you trail broke it you would be able to you know wipe it and install the next if you wanted to.
It's amazing so people who go to the store now have to choose if they buy an application whether or not that's going to run on arm or on windows eight.
Or or Intel sorry on arm or an Intel.
I don't think it's going to be a decision the consumer is going to make for the most part I mean if you're building a desktop that probably gives you an additional choice.
You know how it can choose either Intel or AMD or arm or you know any of the then I mean arm is sort of almost a category of processors as opposed to Intel and AMD which are brands.
Yeah so if you're building your own machine you may now have the option of choosing an arm processor over one of the store to standard x86 or x64 processors but I don't think the average consumer will care or no.
So what's inside you is inside but he will he will notice when you'll go out and buy software.
For example you buy Photoshop or something and you have an arm computer it's not going to work so that will be that that's what I'm not clear on at this point is whether and executed will build to run on windows if it matters whether it's an Intel or an arm CPU or if it's built for windows it runs on windows
so the underlying CPU it's unclear it's sort of at this point I know I'm pretty sure the anything that's built to run on microsoft.net framework would not need to be rebuilt although I can't say that for certain.
So it's not the same thing then with the power PCs in the Mac and the Intel's where some power PC applications did run on the Intel max but Intel applications didn't run on power PC max.
What Apple did to the power PC apps run on Intel is they basically inserted a layer between the application in the OS which was called rosetta and that essentially did the necessary translation between the machine instructions for power PC and the machine instructions for Intel.
So if Microsoft has put something similar in place to allow the necessary instructions to be translated for arm then things should just run if that layer doesn't exist then you can imagine some some sort of you know recomplation would be needed.
It's it's going to be a very interesting playing field if you look at it now we talked about the arm of the Intel we talked about metro what else is really new.
That's a good question I mean those are the two things i've really focused on as far as the big huge pieces with metro comes some additional things like what they call win RT which is this new windows runtime layer they're putting essentially a new API layer between the applications and windows much like they've done with with dot net.
Idea the idea behind it to to make it easier for for people to build applications that run on that metro metro interface but that's you know just it's a new it's a new layer provides new functionality will allow you to get to things like tablet type sensors like accelerators and GPS and that sort of thing.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah so so we're going to look at so we're going to have if I can I can make a comparison to the previous interview will have kind of a merge between a Linux desktop and an Android OS in one.
Yeah exactly so the that's the I think the one big difference between you know we're seeing lots of comparisons between the windows tablets that were distributed at the build conference and the and the iPad and the Android tablets.
But I really look at the windows eight tablets is a bit of a different beast the Android tablets and the iPads that we've seen so far are very much.
Consumption devices for the most part they are you know used for people to be able to get access to data that exists in other places and not as much for you know creating things it that's changing with the iPad to and there's definitely some some additional sort of you know things like podcast production you know apps and things like that that you can get.
I know I have apples definitely doing more to to make that device a bit more powerful and push the push the boundaries on it a little bit but what Microsoft I think is trying to do is is really merge that.
Merge that may blur that line as much as possible you'll be able to have your windows eight tablet with you and use it like a tablet while you're out and about and then bring it home stick it to talk how to connect to a Bluetooth keyboard mouse and use photoshop full blown photoshop on your desktop without switching machines yeah but that that was my that was something that Motorola aired at one of the big tech conferences last year you know this little phone that could slide into screen and.
To a screen and it became a tablet and a tablet could slide into a dog and it became a desktop now that's all good but you know in order to run photoshop or something I'll need a pretty powerful processor a processor that is much more powerful than the one that is currently in my tablet so how is that going to be done with the same machine can you dock towards another processor for example or are we just docking the operating system or are we.
docking the entire device with the processor with it and the battery.
The way I see it and like I see is I think the windows tablets are going to be a different sort of type of device with a different different target market than the iPads and the androids that we're seeing now they probably I mean I can imagine them probably being larger heavier devices in a lot of cases then the iPads and the Android tablets that we're seeing today.
So it's to index in a lot of cases something like an air so they're intending to be sort of larger devices so they're not going to be as sleek I would imagine I wouldn't imagine going to be quite as light I know the ones they were the build conference were like core i5.
Yeah but essentially network type devices so yeah but you have a core i5 nice it's kind of in the middle well it's a nice it's nice on a desktop server and the house years running core i5 but you know it's hooked up to a power grid and that power grid is hooked up to nuclear reactor somewhere so I don't think that battery will be an issue there but if you take that core i5 processor and put it in a tablet it will eat the battery.
If it's running at full speed absolutely I suspect we're going to see things built into some of these processors which will allow them to much like laptop processors have been doing for years to sort of step down from full performance if you want while you're while you're on battery to help conserve battery life.
So we are also speed step technology in their their mobile CPUs for years yeah and everybody turns it up to the maximum because they think there's their devices slow slow and then it eats the battery.
Yeah so it's it's definitely something that's going to be a balancing act I mean I can imagine people would be doing the same with with an iPad it could turn up the processor speed on an iPad I can't imagine that a lot of people would do that.
I there's there there are things that you can dock as I said I mean let's say that we have this one device to rule them all once let's say we have this tablet with windows seven oh sorry windows eight on it.
So we dockets to our I don't know screen and keyboard so we just use the processor power and the and the desktop that's on there or the operating system that's on there.
But alternatively you can also if technology like thunder bolt thank you thunder bolt not thunder bird thunder birds with the guys with the suits and the flying machines that's not it.
The guy if you take thunder bolt you could actually dock a tablet to a desktop and just have the desktop processor which is faster access the operating system can can windows handle that be transferred from from one heart basically you.
You just docked the hard drive with the OS on it you think windows eight is going that way going that way possibly is it going to be like that in the initial release I don't I don't think we're going to see that kind of that kind of functionality in the in the first go around but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that in the future.
Okay talking about first impressions you've played with the VM speed interaction how how was it is it nice to interact with is it smooth do you get it in the view it's brutal to be honest okay I remember going to windows XP and having this wow moment or are going from windows 95 to well millennium not really good example but going from from let's say windows 98 SE to windows
and having this wow moment that you basically see things that are new and that have changed and that kind of triggered you do you still think that those while moments are there or is it a little bit more of the same.
I think it's a lot of the same I mean I run a windows phone as well so I've sort of seen and done the metro interface for the last year so it's not a big huge new thing for me it was probably a little bit more when I first got the phone.
I think it will be a bit of a shock to the system for some people when they when they first start up a windows PC when they when they start shipping it on the desktop and having this metro interface pop up and it's not something they've seen before I think that'll definitely be a shock to the system for some people.
Yeah yeah so it's going to be entirely new but somebody who has done who's done a windows phone is going to go like hey I recognize this.
Yes absolutely it looks and feels very very much like the windows phone interface and you can switch back to the way I think you can turn metro off not 100% sure.
One of the icons on the on the metro interface is desktop and you can definitely switch out to the old windows old in air quotes windows seven style desktop.
What I've always found strange and this is something that we probably will be talking to bar push outs about a little bit later on is that you get tablet interfaces on desktop computers lion is putting that in windows eight surely going there isn't it hard I mean if I take a look at a small screen I want big icons that's that's normal because you know then I can easily hit them with my finger.
But when I've got like I've got a seven 27 inch year behind me and I have big icons on there I'm going to have a I'm going to strain my arms swiping my mouse from A to B just to to to get somewhere and and click that icon is that going to be practical.
On the 27th screen I don't know most acceleration comes to mind as something that might be necessary.
I can see the the I'm trying to remember the name of it now when you when you can be able to sort of scroll between the different sort of panels or areas on a windows eight desktop.
I mean it's it's much like the the iOS device and stuff where you can sort of click and drag and if you if you flick it quickly it will move further the same kind of thing so you're going to be able to move across large areas fairly quickly I think without having to you know have a 12 foot wide tracking area for your most.
Yeah tellbiz are here in the chat room says that you can also completely remove the the Metro UI.
Really well there you go.
And and we got you can't yeah you can switch out of it but you can't completely remove Metro so yeah there you go.
Is there does does windows eight still use the classic BIOS or are we going with the same boot thing EFI boot thing that the Mac uses.
I don't know I haven't been able to get the detailed enough spec on the the Samsung's that they shipped.
Okay kind of rounding up your I want to ask you as a as a developer you have experience with this do you think that the beta that we're seeing right now is going to be something that resembles the finished product.
resembles absolutely I don't think we're going to see any massive changes in you know the Metro UI or the or the the the look and feel of it.
I think most of the next year will be spent helping to build up applications and helping to build up what's coming along with the devices and letting the the manufacturers get the get the hardware in place and bug hunting.
But I'm trying to make the initial release a stable as they can has Microsoft already announced a shipping date.
No they have said second half of 2012 is this is all we know at this point.
Okay so I'm going to round up with the same question I asked Larry where do you see us in about let's not say five years but two years from now.
Where do you see the hardware space and the OS space go will it still have desktops and laptops and tablets or and phones or are we going to merge.
Yes and yes we will still have all of the separate devices we will still have you know notebooks and we will still have desktops which are independent machines will still have.
You know smartphones which are separate machines but will I think what we'll start to do is see emerging both on the the smaller and larger tablets.
So the you know the 10 11 12 inch tablets and slates which are going to start to take over the functionality of laptops and we're going to start to see you know six seven eight inch tablets which will take over.
Maybe that completely take over but certainly helped emerge with the smartphone space as well.
So the the term phone and tablet netbook laptop and desktop are going to meld together.
Yeah but I think I two years I don't think it's going to be enough time for us to see all of those things go away.
I can see us getting to a point in in I don't know maybe five 10 years where we're not going to have the traditional laptop or notebook any point.
We're going to see you know a tablet that I think will dock into some kind of desktop docking station like like we see with laptops today and it won't have a physical keyboard.
I want to round up with a question from the chat room something that I read on Twitter sorry on Google plus as well basically stating that with the new bios or the way windows ages going to take take kind of handle the bios dual booting into linux will no longer be possible.
Do you think that would that will be a fact or are we just looking at a developer version preview lockdown policy.
Yeah I mean this is a question about the hardware certification tool and I really don't know what's going to happen with this space if you have.
I've seen this in a couple of other places whether we're starting to get you know essentially software in the in the pre boot sequence of the operating system which will detect.
You know whether this OS is the the one that shipped on the device and whether you can choose whether whether people are going to have the choice to going forward.
I can see manufacturers certainly wanting to be able to lock a device down to a particular operating system Apple in particular comes to mind.
I think if they could stop people from dual booting into windows or Linux they'd be very happy to do that.
But at the same time you know I think the the pushback would be pretty loud and pretty vocal.
If people were sort of had their devices taken away from them.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
So any final thoughts is this going to be the.
A worthy competitor to OS X lion is it going to be a wordy adversary to the Linux distributions that are out there and is it going to be a worthy successor of the very popular.
And actually not that bad according to me windows seven.
Yes I think it's going to be a very similar in the enterprise space I would not be surprised to see them ship an enterprise version of windows eight with Metro turned off by default somehow.
I also think it's going to be a yeah I you know a worthy competitor in the in the desktop client operating space.
I to some degree I think we're going to see a lower uptake of windows eight than we have seen a windows seven.
I think there's going to be a lot of caution around you know people moving to such a different you know sort of a way of interacting with their computer.
I can see Microsoft maintaining sales of windows seven and windows eight potentially at the same time for some some period of time until people start to adapt to it a little more easily.
And I think I can also see you know a future where windows nine or windows 10 whichever you know one of the next couple of versions of windows is going to be a more complete solution I suspect we're going to find as people start to use windows eight for in real life.
That there's going to be some things that just aren't quite there yet Microsoft is pretty notorious for having a version of an operating system which you know or any of their products which is really only super completed version three of the third release.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah so they're not going to do another vista with this.
I don't think it'll be that kind of people are looking at so early now that we're not going to see.
I don't think we're going to see the windows vista debacle because it's going to be that it's going to be a sort of people of seniors for so so really on but I don't think it's going to get the love that windows seven has seen.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay Keith thank you very much for coming on it's been very enlightening and we're going to we have a clip of windows eight on a tablet which we're going to show a little bit later on so people in the livestream will get an approximation of what it is that is going to be shipped.
Are you going to get it when it's out.
I can definitely see me getting a windows a tablet device.
My only current portable machine is on its last legs and I'm going to need to replace it with something and I've been debating for some time what that's going to be jumping back and forth between whether I stick with a windows you know machine or whether I go to a MacBook Air or some kind of other device so it's definitely in the running.
We'll sort of see once they once they release what the pricing looks like and we'll have to see.
Okay Keith thank you for coming on if people want to find you where can they do so.
Best place to track me down probably is just on Twitter.
Katie Marie on Twitter or at the as go host at the Aussie geek podcast Aussie geek podcast.com.
True true true you also blog that you frequently visit or even write on.
I occasionally write on the last year and a half or so has been rather infrequent but yes occasionally I get something posted up on my blog at Katie Marie.
Okay hey Keith thank you very much for coming on to the night cast and on KWTV live.
It's been great having you a lot I hope you have a lot of fun with windows eight we're going to listen to some music.
As in half an hour we will be talking to Bart Poo shots from Ireland Belgian living in Ireland imagine that and Katie thank you for coming on and we hope to see you soon.
Goodbye.
Thank you very much.
I really like that track?
I really like that track, Sledgehammer. It's old, and so am I, but that's not okay. Who else's
old is Bart Poochots? Well, it's not really old, but he's with us today. Hey Bart, welcome
to KWTV Live. Good morning. Maybe I am old. I don't know. I don't know. How old are you anyway?
Or are we not supposed to ask a podcaster that ever? Oh, yeah. I'm not female. It's fine. 31.
31. Okay. That makes me old. Really? At 37. So, oh, okay. Now I feel old. Never mind. First
of all, I want to thank you for coming on KWTV. I have, you're the third guest in a row that
is an awesome podcaster that is a well-known internet persona. The Bart Poochots also known from the
Nozilla Cast podcast and the chit chat across the pond. And a fellow Belgian at that. It's great,
it's great to have you here. Thank you for coming. It's my pleasure. It's slightly odd to two
Flemish Belgians chatting away in English, but okay. Yeah, yeah. It's that. But I think if we were
to chat away in Flemish, it would be very hard for the people in the chat room to understand what
we would be talking about. I suppose it would shrink the audience slightly. Yes. Yes. It would
kind of reduce the target audience to only the Flemish. And they're not a lot of those. Are they?
Are they? Well, a few million, but yeah. None of the tech world. I never asked you actually,
do you speak Flemish? I do. Yeah. Really? With a bit of an accent, but yes. That would be even
weirder than this. Well, no, I mean, I was, I was four years old when we moved to Ireland. So I
had actually gone to school for a year before removing. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because you didn't,
well, flounders is not that big. You didn't live that far away, but from here. So oh, you still
have, oh, you still have the Flemish talk. Yeah. Your name does, of course, betray you. Poochots,
sounds like some kind of a party drink, booshots. Yeah. Well, it's not really booshots as it's
bushcaughts, but it's nice to hear you go that that very soft SCH that none of the native English
speakers can do, which is why I've settled on booshots. Because I can say it's as if it's
spelled B double O dash S heads OTS. Yeah. Biscuits, if you do it in Flemish. Exactly.
Enough etymology. Great to have you on the show for people who don't know who you are. Can you
elaborate who is Bart Bouchots? Where does it come from and why is he an internet phenomenon?
I don't know why, but people seem to like listening to me. It's weird. So let me see, I guess my
main sort of podcast thing. Let me see. By day, I'm assisted, man. Many Linux. Every now and then,
I get lumped into some Windows networking, which I hate, but I'm good at problem solving and
Windows networking makes lots of that. And then, I guess, my main podcast is the International
Mac podcast that I do at Stu Helm, which is a weekly show. Alone, you get to hear me every second
week at the moment. I've had a little bit of health issues, so I've sort of halfed my podcasting.
So one week with Alison on the chitchat across the pond, and then one week with Stu when I MP,
and then I alternate over and back. Oh, and so we've got you as an extra?
Yeah, exactly. I do the odd special appearances that we're
great. So Bart Bouchots, that's your blog, right?
Yes. And when I just links this stuff, like my photography, I guess photography is something
else I'm quite into. So there's a link to my flicker there. There's a link to my YouTube there.
There's a link to everything about me there, because no one can spoil Bouchots. So if you want to
get me on Twitter, et cetera, et cetera, just go to Bart B dot E and everything's there.
Okay, you are also, of course, a not only assistant man with Linux, but you are also a Mac expert,
if we can call it that way. You've been working with Apple computers for how long now?
Oh, shoot. I wish it were. It's quite some time. I think about 2003 ish, I sort of,
actually, no, as much as no one ish, actually, I was sort of, without much choice, I was moved to
the Mac because I started work as a postgraduate student and I wanted a new computer because the one
that was on my desk was rubbish and my advisor said, well, I'm quite happy to buy you a new computer
on one condition. It's going to be a Mac. I was like, okay, I'd never even heard of it. I
could have been, I guess at this stage, I was a Windows user who was getting cranky. Everything
Microsoft were doing was making me a little bit more cranky all the time. And then when there's
XP in this genuine disadvantage, I call it, it was really quite ready to move, to be honest,
and I had actually started using Linux on the desktop, which in that case was Fedora 1. So it was
just Fedora. Proto Fedora. Or Fedora Core, I think it was called back then. And I just, yeah, I
guess I was ready. And then I was basically given an EMac, which is like a 9 Mac on E in white
in a little bit smaller. And I was told, there you go, that's your computer. And I think it was
OS 10.3 was the latest, greatest brand new thing. And after a bit an hour, I was like, I understand
this. And then within a week, I was like, okay, I'm never going back. And then a few months later,
Steve Jobs set up and announced the Mac Mini. And I thought, oh, there's a good idea. I have,
I mean, you know, I have monitor keyboard mouse and I can take away this great big tower.
And put in this teeny tiny little box. And, you know, I haven't, I haven't got anything but Mac
since. And in work, I have a Mac at home. I have a Mac. I'm a Mac user full time. Okay. So you,
you started at the pro before the poster Intel era? Oh, I was promised pre. I was the G5 iMac.
So G5 Mac Mini followed by G5 iMac, followed by my first Intel machine was a MacBook Pro. And now I
have a 27 inch iMac. Wonderful little machines. Oh, little here. The 27 inches,
not little, which is what I love it. Massive, massive, massive. Now, this is a Mac household as well.
We've got two 24 inch iMacs here, a MacBook Pro and MacBook Air. Not all of them are running OS X
to be very honest. At least one of them is running Linux. And some of them tend to dual boot when
I need them too. So it's very interesting. And they still excel in their quality of hardware.
But what we're here about today is to talk about the new release of Apple's OS.
We have a beautiful, what do you call it? When soccer players do three goals at the same
at in the same match, a hat trick. That's it. We have a beautiful hat trick of OS interviews
today. And you'll be running up number three. We've talked about Linux and what's wrong with it.
Windows, I want to read you must listen back to that. Yeah, it's a very interesting interview.
We had Larry Bushy over. Windows eight and what's wrong with it. And now we are going to,
this is basically our what's wrong with it. Oh, I see a pattern here. Yes, yes, this is our
grumpy episode, as you would call it. But we're taking a critical look at at new OSs and lines,
one of them. So first we had leopard. Then we had snow leopard. Now we have lion. Is this leopard
service pack two? I certainly wouldn't go that far. It's, I think snow leopard is very much,
you know, leopard with some polish. And if you go back a step, then leopard was quite a change
from Tiger, which you've gone before it. And in this case, I think it's a big jump. So 10.6 to 10.7.
And snow leopard to lion is a significant jump. A lot of things have changed. It's not one of those
OS 10 updates where you're kind of going, you know, you reboot after the reen song and you go,
oh, nothing seems to have changed. It's not one of those. Okay. So it's reboot and there's
some change. Okay. Change. Reboot change. I mean, you're actually greeted by when you're
boot into it for the first time, a window explaining some of the change, which is the first time I've
ever seen Apple do that. And the reason for that is because the scrolling direction has been reversed,
which some people will love and some people will hate. My personal take on it is that if you have
a flat surface, it will make sense and your brain will within, I think it took me something like
three or four hours and all of a sudden, what I went is actually what looking for utility to
reverse scrolling on my MacBook Pro is a cord duo rather than cord two joe. So it's not
compatible with lion. And it just I just couldn't deal with the scrolling being the other way anymore
once I've had it the right way. But if you have a scroll wheel, the opposite happens. And it
just will never click it will never make sense. So if you have a scroll wheel, you need to go into
your system preferences and reverse or undo the reversing of the scrolling and reverse it again.
Or your sanity will be lost. So it really depends on what kind of device you have whether the
natural scrolling is actually natural or not. Okay, well, let's let's I've asked this question
to people who try to explain what I call mirror universe scrolling in the Star Trek analogy.
What's normal scrolling? I mean, your finger goes up and the page goes down and your finger goes
down and the page goes up, right? Yeah, so the way I look at it is normal scrolling, you're
controlling the scroll bar and mirror universe scrolling, you're controlling the you controlling the
content. So I'm I think the content is as if it stuck to my finger and I'm pushing it up and
there. Okay, so it's like literally having a piece of paper in your hands and pushing it up
to see the bottom and pushing it down to see the top. Yes. Okay, so yeah, so you think of your
finger as being connected to the page, not the scroll bar. And then once your brain says, oh,
I'm just moving the content, it's fine. But if you have a scroll wheel that never quite works because
you're thinking of rotation and you're thinking of a wheel turning against the page mentally. Yeah,
yeah. And then it just it will never click because it's not sensible. Your brain just won't accept
whereas if you have a flat surface, I'm using the magic mouse and enough, you know,
magic mouse, it makes absolutely perfect sense. And I would imagine if you have a magic
trackpad, it's the same and I know on the laptop, where it's just a regular trackpad,
it's also the same because there's no rotation, it's just straight movement and then it clicks
straight away. Yeah, and then you go like, okay, I'm sliding stuff down with my fingers here, not
rolling a little wheel around. Yes, but if you think of the rolling wheel as being in contact with
the page, then your brain will explode because everything's just come backwards. I think I've
I think I've been there for about seven times or so going like the other thing is if you're
if you're a multi OS person, I don't think you're going to be very I don't think it's if you're
going to be spending time in Linux and Windows or you're scrolling is not reversed. And then
you're switching over back to the Mac, I think your head will also explode. So I think if you're
one of those users, you need to go into system preferences and flip it as well. Yeah, that would
be me. But it has it has taken a certain amount away from my sanity, but that was already in
oil and doubt. So that's not really an issue. That's that's okay. Now we're talking about gestures
and and strolling and strolling, strolling, not strolling, scrolling. We're talking about gestures
and and scrolling and stuff. Well, what else is is new because there's a lot of touchy
feeling involved with Lion, isn't there? They read to be honest, the touchy feeling is quite
optional. Because I'm using the magic mouse rather than the magic trackpad, I find myself really
only using sort of the multi touch for scrolling, obviously, and for swiping between desktops
left and right. Because that's two fingers. And I don't know what sort of human can get three
finger swipes on a small little mouse, but I'm certainly not one of them. So I haven't been using
the other swipes. What I've been using is what I've always used, which is hot corners. So normally
you would do, I think it's a three finger swipe down to get to the view where you see all of your
spaces, whereas I just have the bottom left hot corner. Yeah, it's like we did with X-Pose.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I've basically, because I did an upgrade, most of my settings were retained.
So I always had f10 because I'm old-fashioned. That's the way it used to be in old versions,
but it was hand on and ever changed. So I always had f10 as my X-Pose key. And f10 is now my,
what are they calling it? Mission Control key. And my bottom left hot corner used to be my
X-Pose A hot corner. Now it's my back. I can never remember the name of the blue thing. But it's
a new version of X-Pose A's hot corner. Mission Control. Mission Control. I always mix it up with
a launch pad. Yeah, yeah. Because there's a whole new vocabulary. So there are some new things to
swipe. You have also horizontal swipes. And a lot of, are these basically native iOS
gestures that are incorporated into the operating system? As I understand that there are iOS five
gestures. So they're okay. So here again, as we discuss in the two previous episodes, we have
this merger between this kind of symbiosis or this togetherness of iOS tablet. I wouldn't just
know as a merger with Apple's case. I'd say it's more of a harmony. A harmony. They're not trying
to make the Mac be iOS, but they are certainly making it so that whatever learning you acquire on
one will help you on the other. So a lot of users come to the Mac through the iDevices,
through the iPads and iPads and iPhones. And so I think the idea is that whatever skills they pick
up on those devices will carry through into the desktop device. Ah, that kind of shits an interesting
light on the choice why Apple did this because that was one of the things that personally
annoyed me. I thought like, this is not a tablet device. This is a desktop. If I cannot swipe
the screen, why would I swipe desktops on my mouse? I feel, I don't know if other people have
experienced this as well, but I've seen Neanna having the MacBook Air on her lap and looking at
some pictures and just pointing at the screen and swiping and going like, oh yeah, right, this is
a laptop, but Lion does seem to be ready for that. I, to be honest, I don't think so. I mean,
like every desktop OS, the touch points, the sensitive bits are very, very much designed to be
clicked by a small little pointy thing, not a big stubby finger. It's one reason that Windows tablets
never took off is that fingers and mice are not interchangeable devices. It's really hard to use
Windows with your finger. You're talking about the full Windows, like, like, those terrible tablets
that you can buy with Windows XP on a seven inch screen. Yeah, I mean, the one I saw was about the
size of an A4 page, but I mean, they've been around for a decade. I mean, the early 2000s
have had these devices and it never took off because Windows is not a touch OS. Your finger is
not the size of a mouse no matter what you try to do. So all those little teeny tiny touch
things, I mean, which is easy to hit with a mouse, but it would be very hard to hit with your finger.
For a start, your finger blocks your view. So you need to have much bigger touch spaces anyway,
just because you can't really see very finely, because you can't see through your finger.
So I really don't think Apple are ready or that they should just, you know,
oh, we'll just glom some touch on to OS 10 and then it'll be fine because it won't be.
And I think that's why Apple have gone the roof of the multi-touch trackpad being the way that you
do your touch on test tops. You also have the fact that, I mean, just try holding up your hand
for half an hour, just hold it up and see how it feels. Yeah, blood starts to flow away from it
and it's not really something that is as easy to do. Plus the fact that you'll get smudge everywhere.
I mean, if I look at my iPad, it's like, I don't know, it's been licked by a gorilla or something
after a half day of using it. Yeah, it does. I mean, and for some reason, something about whether
it's the angle you hold the screen or something, you don't see the dirt on an iPad until you turn
it off and then you go, oh my god. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be different on the screen.
On a screen, I see every smudge and I go, don't touch my screen. Yeah, it's one of the,
if you want to make me annoyed, walk up to me and just point. Oh, yes, I love users who do that.
Like this icon here, streaks, streaks, smudge smear. I'm not a person who thinks that the answer
to desktop computing is touch. I tend to, I've once done this with somebody who wore glasses
and I had warned her about this and this was on a laptop screen and not with the MacBooks that
have the kind of hard glassy screen, but with, you know, when it was soft plastic stuff. If you
would like point and really press and I would, you know, cringe. So I took her glasses off very
gently and I remember rubbing the glasses of her lenses of her glasses between my thumbs and my
finger tips and really, you know, greasy it in there and then just giving it back to her and say,
like, there, that's how it feels for me. Luckily, yeah, yeah, it was an awkward moment for her,
but she never did it again. But we did, we did, you did mention that, you know, Apple's not going
to turn the iOS device or the iOS, sorry, the OS Mac OS or Lion OS into a touch thingy because,
you know, you can't control Lion with with your fingers, but there are some things in there like
the launch pad. Is that right? With these massive icons, I mean, if you're, if you're, you've got
a 27 inch iMac, if you're, if you launch launch pad on there, what the, it's, it's like gigantic.
Well, I don't launch launch pad. It's, it's an entirely optional thingy, but it's basically a iOS
like layout your icons on a screen. Okay, like the iOS home screen and you can move them around
then you can make folders and just like iOS. Okay, I want your opinion on this. Why?
I'll tell you why. Okay, it's for Windows users. What?
No, seriously, okay, thinking of family members who have recently moved to the Mac,
when you would go to their Windows machine, what you would find on the desktop is little clumps of
icons. All my game icons are here, all of my other icons are here, and the desktop was the app
launcher. These people will never go to the start menu. They would just double click on the
appropriate thing on their desktop. And when you have that mentality, you come to the Mac and
you're told you have to, the dragon drops off into your duck. So either I know with 5 million
items in the duck and they're all tiny and all, all eligible, or you end up with them getting
very cranky because they have to go to the applications folder, scroll to where they want and double
click it. So for those people, what they wanted most was a desktop to put icons on and to be able to
organize them into groups. And they're delighted. I know family members who are absolutely over the
moon would launch by the thing is the best thing that ever happened to Mac. And then there's people
like me who think, yeah, whatever, I just launch all my else by hitting command space to bring up
spotlight and start typing the first letter or two. True. Same for me. So for me, I just took the
icon off the dock made a little poof sand and I've never seen it again. The thing that I see
as being a cross platform slider is that, you know, Ubuntu Linux is trying to do this as well
with the Unity interface only but only but yeah, okay, yeah, badly. So it's horrible. It's like
it's a duck only. It's not and it doesn't work right. And it's yeah. So people switch the mint
massively. Then you go like then we have we had Katie Murray on talking about Windows 8 just a
just a few minutes ago. Then you have the Metro interface, which is yet another way of trying to
give us a tablet like interface. And then indeed you have Launchpad. I mean, what are
what are software developers trying to do to us going like prepare for the massive tablet?
I mean, to be honest, I don't get that impression for them. I really do think it's just the case
of bring over the learning you already have. And I mean, the other thing if you look at, you know,
I really do think that's what it is. It's a case of helping people who come through the iPad
Halo feel at home. But I don't get the impression that the Apple's idea is to have touchscreen
desktops. I just I don't see that. I think they're too smart to do something so stupid.
Yeah, yeah, because then we would have come full circle now. We're back at the the first Windows
laptop tablet he thinks. Yeah, which didn't work plainly and painly. And the reason they didn't
work is because they didn't have an iOS like thing. Even Microsoft figured that out, but they've
then gone and learned the opposite lesson, which is that desktops should be tablets.
Wait, so they've gone from the extreme that tablet should be desktops. Yeah.
To the extreme that desktops should be tablets. So they've actually just
pendulum right through the middle ground and over across back to silly land again. Whereas Apple,
I really, really get the impression that Steve Jobs understands as he calls it, there's been
trucks and cars. And the Mac is the truck and he expects Mac to have been much less of them in
the world. Yeah. Because you know, a lot of people can get by with just an iPad and it's probably
the perfect computer for them. If all you do is check email chat and surf the web,
you probably like to do it in your couch with a bit of comfort and you probably just grab an iPad.
But you know, try programming in an iPad. Yeah, going to happen. Yeah, just never going to happen.
Not right. Not the right tool for the job. So I get the impression from listening to interviews
with Steve Jobs and stuff that Apple understand that there are different computing form factors
for different computing tasks and different levels of need. And that they will continue to cater for
everyone is my the impression I'm getting just from seeing how these things are developing.
But they certainly are taking. I think the example I use, which I think you like is Star Trek.
I always any any Star Trek analogy is good. Okay. So if you look at the Star Trek universe,
there are computers everywhere. And they are all different shapes and sizes and depending on
what's most appropriate for the job. Yes. So you see data at the back of the bridge and he has this
giant giant, you know, Uber 27 in Giant Mac. Yes. And then you see other people say in the sick
way have little what look like laptops on their desk. And then you have the little fry quarter.
And you just have computers everywhere at all different shapes. But if you look at them,
if you know how to use one, you can use them all. So they have made it so that the paradigm of
the sort of the metaphor of the OS follows you through. And so whatever you learn on one,
you can learn on the other. And yet they're all different so they can achieve the appropriate task.
So iOS is like what's it called in Star Trek? The LARC interface, library,
and I don't control iOS is I think Apple is heading towards a case where skills you learn on one
will always transfer to the other. So they're all like Alcars. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So you have the
little try quarter, which has a very minimal version of Alcars. And then you have data's
giant big screen, which is much different looking and yet similar looking. But it's also Alcars.
But it's also Alcars. So that's where I think we're going. So different, but notably similar.
Yeah. Just wanted to point out the the Uber Google in the chat room just called me just called
me outside the Alcars library computer access and retrieval system. Is the official name? I think
it was thought up by Michael Ocuda for the next generation as a replacement and very cheap
replacement at that. Abs buttons for buttons, which broke buttons broke and and Alcars are
just basically just black pieces of plastic with with a neon behind it, which is brilliant.
Yeah. And oh, we need a new interface to do X, Y or Z. You just paint it on the back of the
glass and stick it back up on the wall. Yeah. But we're completely going down this rattle. I
read the technical manual and okay, this is going deep deep in our, forgive me. They said that
Acura once said in an interview, the the inter the philosophy behind it is to have an interface
basing based on what you could do. And then fast forward to the iPad and we're there.
Oh, very much. If you want to play Angry Birds, the interface looks a lot different than if you
want to write an email, but it's the same interface. Yeah. And the only there's only one physical
button really on the iPad, which is the button to go back to where you started. Yeah. So and even
that in iOS 5, you'll be able to do a five finger swipe in to sort of crush the app.
Yeah. And that will take you to the home screen. So even that one button becomes an option. So
it is actually very Star Trek like where you have a flat glass panel where the appropriate
interface just appears. There's a yeah, it's a great gesture that claws are going like
front of your paper. I like toss it, but it's it's it's all over the place. Just look at
is this is this a phase where interface technology is following popular culture. I mean,
if we talk about interfaces and touch and and there's always somebody who's going to scream
minority report. Only I don't think we're ever going to minority report because we don't have
arms like Arnold Schwarzenegger. It has exactly the same problem as touch screen desktops.
The minority report interface looks great on film. Not realistic. I think it would hurt your
arms being going going like this all the time. Try it. Just try it for five minutes.
Just standing there in your room looking silly, but you don't understand what's about idea.
It's also not not very easy to work along with other people like let's say for example,
you're standing in front of the minority report interface. And Tom Cruise is standing next to you.
So where his hands are is about where your kneecaps are. This is not very big. So I don't really see
the work way. We could ever get the touch base desktops. So if we end up with computers that are
like, you know, the old sort of angled tables that draftsmen used to draw on before they had
computers. Yes. So if you had some sort of 27 inch iMac sitting at an angle as a desk that's
like a draftsman's desk, that might work. I have one objection. You took a covered in smudge,
but no, try to try. Yeah, but try placing one of these on the cover.
You know, oh, yeah, sorry, you don't have video. I don't know video. So I don't know why you're doing it.
I'm holding that's good. I'm holding up my cup. My cup of tea.
Bunks. Yeah, not a good idea. Now we talked about the interface at length,
but there are also other changes in lion and one of the changes that has sparked a lot of
controversy on several of the Mac podcast by I would know who would actually inside such
controversy. They said like, oh, no, no idea. OSX lion is for dumb people.
I don't agree with that. It's it's right. So I think what you're referring to is little things
like what winners have been doing forever, which is hiding the system folders unless you ask to see
them. Yes. And what this has two effects, I guess. The first effect is that it saves your support
time with family, because they haven't just put all other audio books in the library folder,
because books go in libraries, don't they? Yes. But it does have the slight side effect that
the power users need to well, hold down one extra key, which is the option key, which is something
to be honest, that power user knows how you should have been doing forever, because the option key
unlocks everything. If you want to see the detailed, you know, decibles of your Wi-Fi connection,
you hold down the option key and you click on the Wi-Fi icon. If you want to see more detail
and pretty much anything, you hold down the option key and you click on it. So if you want to see
the library folder, you hold down the option key and you go to go. And then it appears and disappear
depending on when you let hope go over the key or not. You can leave the menu open and hit the key
and you'll see it appear and disappear, appear and disappear. Or you can do what I've always done,
which is I've always done command G and then just start our command shift G and just start typing
tilde L, tilde slash L and tab complete, because you can do tab complete in that dialogue,
which is amazing. And then you go straight to tilde library and hit go. So I just do that, you know,
all with the keyboard enter and you're in. That's how I've always done it any way, because I'm a
keyboard person. So, and then you have the terminal, I mean, there's a million ways to get there.
True, true. So I think your example was that Batman won't be able to find his
safety's magic button. That sounds wrong. I'll explain. For example, it came to me as I was
listening to your last segment on the Nacilla cast. Yeah. When you're in a nuclear submarine,
and there's no button, there's a little red cover over it that you have to flip up and then you
can make something blow up. That's what they've done. Just a little little flip up and then
hit explode things. Ah, so a kind of safety cap. A safety cap precisely. So from my point of view,
it hasn't caused me any trouble. And the other thing, of course, you can do, by the way, if it really
annoys you is you can issue a simple shown command to take off the hidden property, because it just
uses a standard OS 10 hidden flag. I want you to take the hidden flag off as I look there it is.
Okay. So you can you can break the plastic cap off and just have to take the plastic cap and throw
it in the bin. So I don't need that. So are operating systems becoming simpler and simpler
in order to address and less technical in order to address a broader population who's using them?
Yep. Yeah. And I think that's important because
desktop computers are intimidating. There's a reason people love the iPad and the iPhone.
They're not intimidating. But a lot of aspects of any desktop OS are somewhat intimidating.
The people I think the Mac is less intimidating than Windows, but it's still intimidating.
And a lot of the problem is that people don't think hierarchically in terms of a file system.
It's not a natural way for humans to think. And people don't think to go browsing around
their hard drive looking for applications. So I think with launch pad which you hate and which I
don't use, but which is very unantimidating. And the app store, I think it's gotten a lot less
intimidating. And that's a good thing. So if I if I compare it for you, no lion hasn't lost its
claws, but they're just just wearing mittens not to hurt. It's attracted to the market cat can do.
Just pull them in. Okay. That's a good analogy. But it's still there. It's actually a little deeper.
If you take the claws out and you scratch a little deeper, they've upgraded the terminal.
They've added new functionality into the terminal. So they're really not going down the
route of dumbing it down. But they are going down the route of saying that people don't have to see
this stuff. They can. We haven't taken anything away. But if you don't need to see it, you don't have
to. But that that that leaves the question, is this still a power users OS or do power users have
to go the extra mile? Oh, no, there's no extra mile. I switched straight away and I didn't change my
daily workflow. I use automated or locked. I use automated interact with Pearl to make automated
run Pearl scripts to parse my clipboard and replace it with stuff. Okay. And all this kind of thing.
Like, I mean, I think I can't just a power user and it hasn't hindered me at all.
So the only thing is that if I want to go into the library, hold down the option key and then I go in.
Okay. Okay. And to be honest, there's really nothing else. And if anything, a lot of the stuff,
like automated got some tweaks, the terminal got some tweaks. And actually the full-screen mode,
I think, is a wonderful thing as well. So if anything, I'm much, much happier. And I guess the big
power feature for me, the one that I was waiting for is built in whole disk encryption straight
into the OS and really well done built in disk encryption straight into the OS. So your hard drive
is a bunker. My hard drive is a bunker. And what it does, which I think is just wonderful. It just
moves your login screen to the BIOS level. And you login once, which unlocks the encryption key
for the disk and logs you into OS 10 at the same time. Okay. So all that you notice as a user is that
the point you log in has moved to before the window were OS 10 is loading instead of after the
window were OS 10 is loading. And other than that, you see nothing. Okay. But you need, you need juice
for that, right? I mean, a cord duo, probably not Katie Murray was on here with a cord duo. I
don't know if it's, if it's kind of, you know what I'm actually core to duo. Wait, wait, wait, wait,
no, dual core. No, it doesn't work on a dual core, right? It's a core duo. It won't work on
because the cord duo was 32 bit, whereas the core to duo is the 64 bit version of the cord duo.
That's it. That's it. And you need muscle. You think so or does it make just like other
OS X upgrades that once in a while make your all the hardware go faster? It's not one of those.
Ah, it's not a make your old hardware go faster update. Okay. I'm not sure you need that much muscle.
Um, but I don't expect the speed up. So I think actually what it might be sensitive to is RAM,
which is something I don't notice anymore because I have 12 gigs of the stuff. Okay. Not, not an
issue for you, indeed. Yeah. And my other, my, I don't have 12 gigs in all my max, but my other
lion machine has four gigs and it's entirely happy on four gigs. It's really, really not an issue.
So, uh, is it is it also, uh, what they say, like, you need solid state to make the magic work?
I don't think so. I don't know. I don't have a single solid state disco to the my iPad.
Okay. And it seems absolutely fine. Where I think you'd struggle with the old, the old,
where you struggle, which is the old MacBook Airs, which are pretty underpowered machines.
They're not average machines. They are. This is mine. So for the guys in the video,
stream, you can see it. This is my, um, previous generation MacBook Air. So, uh, the one with
still the normal, uh, please wait for, as Mr. Gadget said, uh, on the Nassila cast, the
please wait for pain to drive 4,200 RPM hard drive. Well, I was just going to say it's not just
that it's a spinning hard drive. It's a slow spinning hard drive. Yeah, it is. It is. But it's,
and it's a slow CPU and it's not very much RAM. And those three things together are just not good.
So this is an over, an underpowered overpriced machine, if you pay full price.
Well, what you're getting for your money is a lack of size. You're paying for miniaturization,
as what you're doing with the old Airs. And that's all you were paying for. You wanted something
small and light that was good enough to read your email and serve the web. And that's what you got.
Yeah. Apple's expensive answer to a net book. Yes. And thankfully, they went
wait a second. If we take out the hard drive and bring this solid state device, we can actually
make this teeny tiny little laptop work. Yeah. So the new MacBooks and boy, this is going to
this is going to hurt my visa. I almost don't dare to ask a question. So the new MacBook Airs
are not this are not the compromise. They're not because they went intel basically got like
their normal chips and managed to shrink them and make them low power and low size. So you're not
really compromising in terms of CPU. You're still compromising a bit in terms of RAM. I think
it's still two gigs around, but I think you can stick for and if you want, if your visa will stretch
to it. And you have the solid state disk. So they actually perform really well. The solid state
disk makes up for the lack of RAM because oh no, I'm using soft space, which is not really that slow.
So who cares? Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to round up with asking you the same question that I asked
all of my guests. Where do you see us in two years? Will we have a merger of iPads and iMacs
and MacBooks and MacBook Airs and iOS devices? Will phones and tablets and netbooks and stuff
melt together? Or will there still be distinguished categories? I see them being distinguished
categories, but with more similarities. I mean, Apple called the event when they when they
announce Lyon back to the Mac and what they're doing is they're taking the ideas from iOS
that are good and bringing them back. So it'll be more tablet-like in the sense that you have apps
auto-saving instead of this thinking about the file system having a file save file save as all that
kind of stuff. You're going to have more apps taking sort of the iFotoRooch and the iTunesRooch
and having the data being part of the app. And then as iCloud kicks in, you're going to find
a lot more of your stuff is just sort of there. So you go into the app on your Mac and you work
away and then you without thinking, without hitting save, without doing anything, you get up, you walk
away, you sit down on another Mac and you continue where you left off. A lot more of that kind of
stuff. So a lot more similarities, but at no point is it going to be the 1 OS for the two if you're
a Mac user. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So no merger there. I would call it a harmony rather than a merger.
They're going to come together and they're going to work better together and sound better together,
but they're not going to join. Okay, one more question. Your wildest rumor on iOS 5.
I don't really have wild rumors. Your wildest prediction.
What is it? I don't do predictions for iOS 5 because we've seen it and all the rumor
mill knows what's going on. Anyway, there's nothing. I don't think there's anything major sort of
going to come out that we have been told about. Except that the wire is going to go away.
We even told about that. So that's not a rumor. Yeah, but that's a big deal. That's a big deal.
So a huge deal and the other big deal. I mean, that security is something that is always on my mind
because when you add men's servers, if it's not, you're going to end up with servers that are hacked
very quickly, is that iOS at the moment is really hard for Apple to update because it's monolithic.
So if they want to change one letter from an uppercase to a lowercase in the OS somewhere,
they have to give you the entire OS. There is no ability to delta updates in the iOS 4 way of
doing things with iOS 5 not only using the wires, so you don't have to plug it into your Mac to
update it, but we're getting delta updates. So if Apple want to make a change of one letter,
it'll be like a 2k update. Oh, so no more 4.0.2. This is a 700 meg download updates.
There might still be a few of those when they make big changes. Like there are with iOS 10,
you have some big updates, some little updates, but little things will be little updates.
And big things will be big updates.
Amazing. When are we getting it? I think October 5th or October 15th?
If I were a guessing man, I would say the 5th.
Okay. That's a guess. I don't know.
Bart, I want to thank you for coming on to KWTV Live. It's been an absolute honor to have you
because you are one of the podcasters that I admire. You are a fellow countryman and you are
a connoisseur of many things, including OSX and always nice to have a deep, deep expert
on the show. If people are curious about you, where are the places on the into webs,
where they can find you? It's very simple. Just go to barkb.ie and everything's listed
from there that I care about. Okay. So next podcast appearance for you will be on the...
It will be IMP this weekend, which the date hasn't been set. We're a bit, we basically,
we record live sometime over the weekend, which is Friday, Saturday or Sunday, sometimes Thursday,
sometimes Monday. So maybe not Tuesday or Wednesday, basically. And so if you follow IMP
podcast on Twitter, we'll tweet out when the show is going live or you can just subscribe
and iTunes and you'll get it when it's ready. But we don't, people like the live thing,
like the chat room and stuff. So if you want to be live, follow us on Twitter, you'll see one more
on and then you've got IMP podcast on TV, forward slash live. You can listen along, you can chat in
the chat room. Oh, the usual stuff. Okay. Hey, Bart, thank you very, very much for coming on KWTV.
It's been an absolute pleasure having you. And I hope we can have you on soon, pretty soon,
once again. Okay. Well, I certainly would like to be back on. It's an absolute pleasure to talk to
you in the voice instead of over the typey, typey. Is this actually the first time that we've
been on the podcast together? Didn't you help me out when Allison was away and do a
chitchat across the pond with me? Did we? I think we did many years ago, before Katie started being
good and taking up from Allison when she went on holidays. Yes, that Katie. Thank you, Bart.
I hope to see you again soon. And we'll, the chat room says hi. They absolutely adore the
interview. So you can also join in if you want to, nightwise.com slash nightlife and meet the people
that are watching us live right now. And we're going to move on to our next guest who is already in
the, what do you call it? The sidelines warming up. Yeah. The green room. The green room. Who's
already in the virtual green room? Wow, that's it. We have a virtual green room. Who's already waiting
for us in the green room? Green room. Bart, thank you very much for coming along. And we'll see you
soon. Okay. Absolute pleasure. Good luck. Bye.
Okay, that was a pretty long show, but you know, interviews, interesting stuff. And I hope
you really, really enjoyed it. I'm going to keep the sign out very, very short and very,
very sweet. You know how to get in touch with us. Feedback at nightwise.com or subscribe to the
nightcast in iTunes if you haven't done so or use the nightwise.com media feed and subscribe to
our podcast. I do have some feedback in the feedback box, but we are a little, little, little short
for time this week. So I'll keep it all till next week when we return with another nightcast
or a KW TV. I'm not really sure which one I'm going to do first. I hope you enjoyed this week's
episode. Don't forget you can be a part of the following KW TV live series on October 21st from
8 a.m. to 1 p.m. GMT plus 1 over at www.nightwise.com slash nightlife. There will also be a Google hangout
if I get it working by then. And of course, our favorite IRC channel on IRC.freedom.net and the
hashtag is hashtag KW TV live. But you don't have to be an IRC wizard. Just go to nightwise.com slash
nightlife and we'll have a little chat window for you guys and girls there as well. So if you
enjoyed this episode, please let me know. And if you want to attend the next episode of KW TV live,
now you know where to go. One little piece of community news, October 23rd will be the day that we
will go to the facts convention in Kent, Belgium, which is Belgium's biggest cosplay Expo. We are
still waiting for press tickets, but they have been promised and should be in the mail. We will be
there with a press crew of four featuring the talented Stefan the Sars, Conrad Voyak, Nihanna and me.
And of course, some other nightwise.com fans who can, you know, join in the fun and be in
Belgium's biggest cosplay Expo and walk the show floor and talk to you interesting people
and hang out with other nightwise.com fans. It's going to be a lot of fun. I'll see you guys in the
next episode. And until then, let technology work for you. Bye-bye.
Thanks for coming to the edge of real and cyber space. You have been listening to the nightcast.
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