hpr-knowledge-base/hpr_transcripts/hpr3388.txt

Episode: 3388
Title: HPR3388: Linux Inlaws S01E35: The Free Software Foundation Europe
Source: https://hub.hackerpublicradio.org/ccdn.php?filename=/eps/hpr3388/hpr3388.mp3
Transcribed: 2025-10-24 22:34:08

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This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3388 for Wednesday, the 28th of July 2021.
Tid's show is entitled, Linux in laws S0135, the free software foundation Europe
and is part of the series Linux in laws it is hosted by Monochromic and is about 78 minutes long
and carries an explicit flag. The summary is an interview with Matthias Kirschner,
free software foundation Europe. This episode of HPR is brought to you by archive.org.
Support universal access to all knowledge by heading over to archive.org forward slash donate.
This is Linux in laws, a podcast on topics around free and open source software,
any associated contraband, communism, the revolution in general and whatever fan says
your tickle. Please note that this and other episodes may contain strong language, offensive
humor and other certainly not politically correct language you have been warned. Our parents
insisted on this disclaimer. Happy mum? Thus the content is not suitable for consumption in
the workplace, especially when played back in an open plan office or similar environments.
Any minors under the age of 35 or any pets including fluffy little killer bunnies,
you trust the guide dog unless on speed and qt rexes or other associated dinosaurs.
This is Linux in laws, season one episode 36, the free software foundation Europe. Martin,
how are things? Yeah, I think they're great. We have sunshine and warmth and travel restrictions.
Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Is it August 13th at 12 o'clock? No, no, no, no, no,
then it would be raining. It's before that. Did the met office move for summer?
I'm just checking this. It's a little bit later this year. Okay. And how are you today?
Can't complain, can't complain. And I'm more than excited to have actually the free software
foundation. Europe as part on this podcast, a guy called Matthias Kirschner,
who plays a very pivotal role at site foundation. I'm sorry, Matthias, please introduce yourself.
Hello, yes. Thanks for having me here. My name is Matthias Kirschner and yeah, I'm the president
of the free software foundation Europe. It's simple as that. Okay. Because everybody knows
what the free software foundation and the free software foundation Europe is. We don't have
to spay that. No joke aside for the for the two lists of the podcasts that do not know out of the
three that are normally listening that do not know what the free software foundation and the free
software foundation Europe is maybe monetize. You can shed a little bit of light on these two
organizations, the history and the differences, of course. Of course. So the free software foundation,
that's our American sister organization. They were found in 9085 as the first free software
foundation that was from the so first in 1983, there was the Knewpro check which was started to
build a complete free operating system. So that all components of this operating system allow the
users to use the software for any purpose to share it with others to study the source code and
and to improve it further the software. And so they started with the Knewpro check on a
technical basis. They set up the free software foundation as a legal entity to accept donations
and to be able to sell software. And then later than in 2001, the free software foundation Europe
was founded. And we were founded as an independent sister organization. So there are no financial
or personal overlaps about those two organizations. And the organization was founded
to build like the the aim was to build a network, a free software foundation network,
so that each of those organizations are working for the same goals, going to the same direction,
but can then based on cultural backgrounds approach this a little bit differently in their
area. And yeah, so in 2001, the FSFE was founded. So this year we are celebrating our 20th
birthday. And yeah, and since then the free software foundation Europe is working to promote
software freedom in Europe. We are a charitable organization. And we have our main mission is
to empower users to control technology. So that's the rough overview. But yeah, let me know if I
should go deeper into the different work areas. Yeah, I'm sure we'll come to that in a minute,
but I was just gonna ask a question on your first description. I mean, understand the cultural
differences between the US and Europe quite intimately myself. But so I think you mentioned that you
are completely independent and have your own governing body and all the kind of things. Do you
have any kind of coordination as well in terms of programs or messaging that you put out?
So I mean, usually it works like that that we we interact with each other so that like the
executive director at the FSFE is then talking with myself at the FSFE. We talk about different
projects going on that us know about what is upcoming and then have all the discussions and
bring people in contact when there is something coming up. They have also been sometimes where
this cooperation, I mean, sometimes it works better, sometimes it works. It works less good
depending on who is at the moment working on what and how much time they have available. And
if there is at the moment common interest on on some topics or if at the moment they focus a
little bit on different areas. So that that's the main the main cooperation there. I mean, the
main part which keeps the organizations together is the same vision, the same idea where we want to
go that users should be empowered to control technology. And then on some of those aspects,
there is then cooperation there, there are meetings between the organizations. But as there are
no overlapping staff or other like financial like joint project, their financials are distributed
or so. There is is a little bit looser than you might see in some other organizations.
Okay, okay. It sounds like you have a lot of freedom in terms of what you do in in Europe and
then there is no direct organizational link around us. It's purely on a on a conversational basis
and is there a similar kind of organization in Asia perhaps or that you're aware of? I'm not
a person. So I mean from the from the official FSF, there is the free software foundation in India
and the free software foundation like in America. Okay, like the free software foundation
in Europe and the FSF, they are the two organizations who also have staff and yeah, so also larger
finances to pay people to work on those goals. The others are volunteer organizations at the moment.
Right, so you can push me to achieve more as well with permanent staff, I imagine.
Okay, and so you mentioned the empowering people to control technology piece there.
So I mean, that comes down to the basis of why the FSF and the FSF exist. Do you want to
expand on that a little bit more? Because I mean, if we talk about technology and people being
able to empower people to control it, then okay, we are over generation that we all use to
using technology and computers and all kind of stuff, right? But the, to say, you know, Chris' grandma,
she probably hasn't seen a computer in her life from off-close, so is that something you
she probably was pushed on the front of her nose. This thing, yeah. I mean, actually that's
very good. The question about that is very close to our mission statement, general, then it's
I mean, we are living in a world where software is deeply involved in all aspects of our life,
and it's becoming more and more and more and not less at the moment. And that's why it's important
that this technology empowers people rather than restricts them. And I'll believe is that free
software gives, as free software gives everyone everybody the right to use, study, share, and improve
software. This then also helps to support other fundamental rights in society like freedom of
speech, freedom of press or privacy. And so it's, I mean, when I talk to people who are not so deep
into that technology, I often explain it also that I mean, we have in a democratic society,
you distribute power. So you have different institutions like the judiciary, the legislation,
legislators, and the executive. You have different layers in government, like federal states,
regions, or however they are called. And so there is some checks and balances between those
institutions. And that's something which is element, a big element for democracies. Now,
when we are living now in a world where more and more of things around us are
decided by computer and by software and their computers all around us, then we also need to
distribute the power over those over the software to make sure that this distribution of power is
not just in the institutions, but and they all depend on the same people supplying the software to
them. And they can take decisions, but it's important that all these institutions can also make
their own decisions and that you have a distribution there between the institutions and
between all the users out there. So there is no central point where someone can decide what
can all the people out there do and what are they not allowed to do with technology.
This is very close to an original statement I read ages ago from a guy called Richel Stormen.
Maybe now is the time to go back in history a little bit and to go into a little bit of detail
where the FSF and of course subsequently the FSFE came from and the overall mission behind
what is pretty close a to my heart and b, almost I'm tempted to say to communism because at the end
of the day we're talking about distributing knowledge power ideas and that ideas should be free,
so should be software.
I mean so first of all I'm not sure to my memory Richard didn't bring up this relation with
the distribution of power so I mean his main argumentation there is that users should be
should be empowered but it's more about like he connects a lot of those topics to the freedom of
speech so that's but also a lot of times it was like free software free as in free speech not as in
free beer so on of the explanations which he did there. I think it's free software is something
which you cannot put into one of the other systems like communism or capitalism or
liberal liberalism or it's probably should have added the caveat communism is of course my personal
interpretation of the matter but then I become misunderstood and sorry about the oversight sorry go ahead
yeah so I think it's it's something where it is about empowering the people the users to do what
they think is is the right thing to do so that they can the they are not restricted by software but
that they they can change the software to what they want to do and not have to do what someone else
decided through the software what they have to do and so that is something which fits into the
thinking of many different people I mean there are there are people who identify themselves as
commoners who say that while free software that's that's fitting there you can you can talk with
people who say yeah they are they identify as capitalists and say free software that's important
because there you really have a market and it's not like when you when you bought one product AB or
seated afterwards you are in a service monopoly on on what you have and that free software is important
free market with competition less monopolies so you see this you have other people arguing that
free software is the solution for anarchism you have others who who connect free software to
different religions and explain you why if you believe in this religion free software is the
right thing to do so I think it's it's it's really difficult to to put free software in in one of
those boxes so does that make sense it doesn't it doesn't need yes the thing is that there is
something called the OS the OS sorry the open source initiative in terms of the definition of
open source maybe for for some of our listeners who are not familiar with the with the OS
definition maybe we should touch upon this briefly because I think the FSF and the FSFE and the
OSI share certain goals in the in that respect you mentioned some of the aspects already full teaser
there's there's an upcoming episode or there was and there wasn't episode exactly there wasn't
episode about two episodes ago on on on open source licenses for those people who missed this maybe
matters now at the time to to recap some of the OSI goals for open source software okay so I mean
there are I would say three different definitions out there about free software or open source software
and so the free software definition mainly says explains it in a way that I am doing like that you
can use study share and improve software and you have those rights to do those and if one of those
rights is missing then it's not free software then so this this term was introduced in 1983 and
an outreach developed into those for freedoms in a definition that's maintained by the free
software foundation of this organization and then you have organization like the like DBN and
the open source initiative and they have a longer explanation about what is free software or in
their case they they call it an open source software and that's then a longer list and I have to say
I have always I always had difficulties to remember all of those points so that's that's
something which is I think always difficult to to remember a longer list of of things you have to
how what exactly is is how exactly is defined so but the the the OSI definition it's mainly that
you have a free distribution the source code is available you have you can do derive
derive works there is an integrity of the author source source code there is no discrimination
against persons or groups there is no discrimination against fields of endeavor there is a
distribution of license of the license the license must not be as specific to a product and it
must not restrict other software and the license must be technology neutral so those are the 10 points
there but I have to say most of the time I have to look them up because I can't remember those 10
points it's in the end something that is is something that is also included in those four
freedoms of the free software definition and so I think it's it's way easier to to remember like
you study share and improve and then deduct from that that everybody is can for any purpose without
any restrictions without reading or agreeing on any license term use the software you can share
the software without limitations and help others or do that also for yourself benefit by making
money with it you can study it analyze and discuss the software and for improving it you can
modify an adapt to fit your and others needs so it's in the end it's it's then deducted from those
from those four points and to get back to that I mean the free software foundation mainly then
Richard storm and defined those those freedoms there and then later in 1998 the open source initiative
was founded and they wanted to find a term for free software that they can better
better use when they are talking in the commercial context and so that was brought up as a marketing
term for free software that's why we also use those two terms they are synonyms for for the same
software so I mean when when the FSF and and the OSI look at different licenses and the FSF looks
is there's a free software license and the OSI will ask the question is that an open source license
they will always almost always come to the same conclusion there are very few times when there
was a different decision there about licenses which honestly I think don't matter so an interesting
trade and that has been very insightful in terms but an interesting trade of this whole setup is
the unrestricted use of software of sorry and of free and open source software I should add
there has been a little bit of controversy over the last five to seven years around this
few companies for example came up with something called the common clause and the subsequent
well for what of a better expression controversy to what the terms to what the terms
shitstorm tells its old entail any thoughts on this so I mean as long as the FSFE was working on
these topics we saw that I mean first there are more and more companies understand why free software
is good for them and how they can benefit by using free software and by by basing their
products on free software and then some of them they they are running into some problems about
the about their business models so I mean one of the the big advantages I see with free software is
that you have to be very good and you have to be really good at fulfilling the users demands
that people stick with you so and and then it's it's it's other people can set up competing
offers to what you are doing when when you're doing free software and so I can understand that there are
some some companies who then try to include other clauses other restrictions to the software
so that it's easier for them to make money with the software and yeah the problem there is then
when when this is done in a way which is which is then restricting those one or some of the rights
which should be there in a free software license and so that's why why then there is this is
problem then that there is then software out there where they say it's it's free software it's
open source software while when you have a closer look you will then find out that some of the
terms in their licenses restrict some of those rights you would expect to get from a free software
license yeah yeah no there are as Chris mentioned we have a episode on open source licensing but
I mean the the point is kind of twofold right is one is is organizations making money of
free software because it's available it's it's free and or in terms of your definitions
about the other token the the development of those software products or projects whatever you want
to defile over you want to define them those don't benefit nearly as much from those
and so the the point I'm trying to make here is really that there isn't much of a
financial incentive for the actual developers themselves except when a project or a piece of
software is being productized and and monetized through through an organization right so
so how do you see that you know if we had several people talking on this subject as well as
hardware your opinion was on how this could be more sustainable in in in in terms of keeping
those projects going and to the quality level that they they need as well I mean just to to
clarify on that point the the FSFE we always encourage people to ask for money for what they are
doing so if you are developing free software we think it's it's it's good for the sustainability if
you can base a business model on this so that you are paid for it so that the work of maintaining
a software over a longer time that that you can actually do this that you that you have to
resources to to work on just for a longer time we have seen that way too often that some people
started something it's included in all kinds of solutions a lot of larger companies depend on
this software but there there is no it's not not made sure that people actually have the time
to work on those and make sure that they they they are probably maintained for how that software
is used meanwhile and I think the one thing I often notice is that that people confused free
software or open source software with business models and you you often hear people talking about
the open source business model and I think we we should really clearly separate their free
software it's not a business model neither is open source you have business models that work with
free software or open source software and which of those work and work not that depends on many
different other factors in general I would say that all business models out there except selling
licenses work for proprietary software as well as for free software depending on the exact case
and the the specifics of a certain area some things were better and some things work worse
and it will always be the case that it's not about it's it's not so much about the software and if
you publish it under under free software license or under proprietary software license which will
decide if you will be successful or not but there are many many different factors if you will be
successful with your business or not and I think that's something which I think it's good if
you clearly differ between those things just because you you publish some software under free
software license does not mean that people will throw money at you and neither does even if you have
a very cool software solution for a problem it doesn't mean that you will get money for that
there are many different factors and even if you do everything right you might you might fail
while someone else at another time in history will afterwards be rich and so I think that's
one of the things that's very important not to not to confuse free software as a software model of
what rights you get with business model or a development model yeah that's a nice explanation
there um I mean that kind of ties in a little bit to the the point one of our previous guest
mayors is that some of the funding for these projects should come from public money
and I think you you've got a similar kind of project going yourselves at the FSFE at
moment yes so um we we started the campaign framework public money public code
um and their our goal is that publicly financed software should be published under a free
software license so we believe that if money from taxpayers is used to develop software afterwards
everybody should benefit from that again and so there are several other benefits there as well
that for example public administrations can better work together so you might also then have some
tax savings there by by not developing everything up from scratch again and then the most
important point there is that they should be more sovereign about their own infrastructure
and should be able to to to decide what they as as a public institution want to do and
based on their considerations on not just about what what we do or what what decisions might be
prevented from some other uh company just because they are developing the software and um yeah so
we have this public money public code campaign and uh the when you go to public code.edu
there is an overview of the different arguments why why we think that publicly financed software
should be published as free software we have videos there in several different languages which can
be used by organizational individuals out there to promote free software in the in the area of
public administrations there is there are some other resources like brochure for people who are
more interested than decision makers who want to know more about free software you can hand that
over to them can order those brochures from us as well they are available in some languages
and um and there's also an open letter so to to ask decision makers to implement this so to all of
those here listening uh so i hope that afterwards all of you sign sign this open letter and we have
those uh three or was it two listeners uh two signatures more i mean how many are we looking for
yeah so yeah and i mean the the idea with this is that we we are providing um resources so that every
group out there around the world who wants to promote for this and every individual who wants to
approach their their school their university their their library their local public administration
and so on that they that they have resources available to make it easy to to do this um we also we
offer like workshops for for people to understand how to best work with those resources and um so the
idea is that we want to empower all the others out there to further promote free software in this
context. Interesting topic and of course the links to that particular uh that there will be in the
show notes rest assured um changing text lightly Richard M. Stormen who's of course one of the
founding fathers of the movement let's put it this way has been under uh what's the diplomatic way
of putting this on a little bit of controversy lately and i'm not talking about the controversy
about Linux was new slash Linux but rather but rather the Epstein um how can i put this uh
controversy and the subsequent signature lists on GitHub about kicking him out of the FSFE
FSFE and and then subsequently of course the re-insensiation of set mr. Stormen on the board
of the FSFE maybe given the fact that the FSFE has issue has issue statement maybe you can
elaborate a little bit on this also including maybe perhaps the background because i'm not
to show if all of our business know about the controversy and also perhaps
uh shed some more light on the background of the FSFE statement on this uh controversy
okay yeah we're very difficult to do that in a few words take a time so um
so yes we so Richard Stormen the year before the year before he he stepped down after there was
a public controversy i think it's it's still something which uh many different people have
different understandings what this was about and it's it's very difficult to explain that
but i think that's something where some people might have to do their own research and make up
their own mind why why that exactly happened and then after he has we sign from from the board
then in in march this year he announced that he will he joined the FSFE board again
and that was something which we ourselves just learned through the public announcement by
Richard Stormen that he is part of the board of directors again of our system organization and
all we we disapprove this step which for us also came as with without any message of
remorse or willingness to to change or like acknowledging what what happened there and how people
felt about that and um so that that was something which was then inside the FSFE um
we had we had very long discussions about all of that and uh i have to say that the statement
we put out there which you find on fse.org slash news search share for a statement on on
Richard Stormen um it was quite some effort to to phrase something in a way where in the end
everybody could could say i i approved this and i'm fine that this is our position so that's also
why this is really difficult for me now to uh to say that again in my own words uh as as that was
really something where where we were arguing about different words at different uh how to say this
exactly where to put the commas and so on so it's it's it's really difficult for me to to summarize
that better um i think uh yeah it's uh
the the the main point is i mean what what we said then in this in this uh in this statement is
that um we think it's uh it's important that you you recognize and reflect when other people
were offended or harmed by your actions and uh and consider this this feedback in your further
actions and that was something which we which we were missing in there and that that is something
which where we were really disappointed and uh where we felt that this is harmful for the
for the FSFE and for the free software movement i mean there has been a lot of controversy around
this um ranging from a self admitting Mr. Stormin that he's
bipolar as a way too strong word but maybe more than an autistic i don't know i'm i'm i'm i'm
finishing for words here because i am not psychologist and be uh i've only met wretched ones
of twice and there are certain people who say to my ex in my opinion to some extent true
that his social protocols or his social skills are somewhat lacking for enough
on the other side his contribution to the movement cannot be underestimated because initially
of course he came up with this whole notion when he was still studying at MIT looking at the
source code and then coming up with the with the idea that this source code that runs machines
should be free so it's it's it's a tricky one let's put it this way and i fully understand that there
are i i don't know what the what the current number is but the last time i looked at the at the
at the signal list on on GitHub there were kind of clocking in that maybe five maybe six
six digits so um the the controversy runs high even in the community
in the community so i reckon but to the best of knowledge he hasn't stepped down right so he's
still a member of the fsf board that has rejoined for the time being yes i'm completely mistaken yes
my knowledge that's that's right yes i mean it's just just to make to to clarify in that point
that because that was one point where i think several people might have misunderstood
our statement a little bit so the contribution rich of storm and made for the fsf movement
especially in the beginning on defining the four freedoms and explaining all of the different
um topics in his several articles that's something which uh that's that's that's why this this
movement was started and it's it's a huge value and i think that that's something which i mean
at least for the fsf e i know it but also several people who who uh signed one of those
statements they they see this as something that uh that is a huge value there and um it's also i
mean for for myself i mean his his writings they have have been the reason why i was convinced that
this is such an important topic that i want to dedicate a large amount of my of my life to to work
on those issues and help to improve society on on this and make sure that that the users are
empowered there and so that's something which is i think you you cannot under underestimate the
the significance he had for the for the fsf movement and for for the future of of our societies
by having started all of that and i think what what we see there is is a bit the issue about
how how how much connected our ideas and actions of people in one area with like with the
person and other personal views on other topics i mean you you also see that sometimes in debates
about like there there is a great picture and people laugh that picture and it's displayed in
all museums but then there is there is some information about what that artist also did
beside painting that picture and then there is a discussion about what what should be done there
is that is it is it now something that all the things that person did in one area is that now
all wrong because because the person did something in in another area which several people disagree
with what what do you do there i mean it's that's one one of the issues that's for two for so many
people who defined important ideas started important movements in our society that you later
learned or even still at the time learned that in in some other areas of life they they behave
in a way that you disapprove how how do we deal with that that's think a very very difficult question
so it's a very instinct point in in terms of how do you you know that is the person the idea
or are they two separate the right it's something similar in politics or specifically in in
places like the US and in some degrees is you know people are not actually voting for the party or
the idea is sometimes but more for the person that's representing them rather than the other way around
it's yeah it's it's it's an interesting dilemma that exists in many many areas but yeah
um i wanted to change the subject a little bit because we kind of didn't really get into the story
about how you ended up at ff e and what your background is you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit
because it's obviously we already talked quite a little bit important about an important
position that you are in now and uh yeah how did you decide to join um uh yeah how did they all
come about basically so i was uh i was always interested in in politics and uh i was um i was
asking my father to subscribe to more newspapers so that i don't just get information from one of
them but that i can better make up my own mind there and my father at that time said well he
read something about this internet and he doesn't want to spend all this money on the newspapers
so um he will he will get another computer with an internet connection so he bought a computer
with a modem and through that decision i was luckily one of the first people in my in my class
there who had internet access and i think it insight it would have been cheaper for my father to
to subscribe to the newspapers but uh yeah so so that was the start that i um that i got this uh got
this computer and then there was a time that i got another computer which wasn't used by
by the company my father was working for anymore and so we had two computers at home and i connected
them with a network cable and um then um i saw that there are email programs on both of those computers
and i thought like hey it would be cool if i could send an email to my brother sitting at the other
computer and i was not able to do that also there were the email programs there without connecting to
the internet i was not able to send a message from one of those computers to the other and um so i
complete at school and there was actually one person who said like i have something for you
and at one of the next days he brought me some CDs and floppies and that was then my first
GNU Linux uh distribution so i i installed that it took me quite a while with this friend on the phone
and uh after some time i was able to boot up uh the system uh no graphical user interface just some
white fonts on some black background and uh yeah it took me quite a while till i got the graphical
the graphics working in that time i already started to think that it's actually quite cool to use
this so i also sticked afterwards to a lot of terminal programs there so that that was how
how i then got into this and i then talked a lot with this friend at school about about
free software we started setting up a local free software group we organized um install parties
and um then participated at free software events together and yeah and then yeah over the time
i didn't realize that this whole topic uh when when discovering the GNU.org websites and reading the
the GNU.GPL and reading several of the articles by Richard then i realized that actually i mean
this this is very political topic as well it's not just about the technology which which i
loved and i mean you could learn anything you can you could have long discussions on mailing lists
and so many people with so much knowledge sharing this with you that's that was incredible i thought
but it's it's also a very significant political topic and somehow at that time i thought that
while with the technical topics there are so many people out there who help you to understand it
it's very difficult to understand the political systems and that's why at that time i decided that
i i studied political sciences so i started public at it political and administrative sciences
so yeah that was the idea that i started i started with that so i can dare learn this part and the
other part i can continue to do that with great people groups on several platforms mailing lists
and yeah during the studies i continued with also in a free software in a local free software
user group and going to conferences and and then there was a time that during the studies where you
had to do a practical semester do yeah and that was the time when i asked some deep yarn developers
whom i know like whom where can could i go and they made several suggestions and one of those
both also there's the free software foundation europe and when i then discovered the website and
looked deeper into it i i thought like that's the perfect fit and so i was i was then contacting them
about doing the internship and they told me well that's we never had interns and there was some
back and forth there were a lot of arguments via this could not happen and after some back and
force they they wrote me like okay you have been so persistent we think we should give you the
chance to at least have a job interview and so yeah then we we met and started talking
about this and yeah after short time i knew that i want to do it and the president at that time
Giocreve also later told me that yes let's take this opportunity and then so i ended up then
working in Hamburg in his one room apartment i was sitting at the sofa he was sitting at the desk
next to the next to the bed because there was no office of the office of here at that time and
yeah i started with the internship and then afterwards
fse said like it would be great if someone could do some lobby work in in Berlin we don't have
someone there and then i moved to Berlin and continued my studies there and worked as a volunteer
for so so when i joined as an as an intern that was in 2004 to 2005 then i volunteered for some
years and in 2009 i was then employed and started the the Berlin office
yeah amazing because people you heard it here first one of the most influential people on the
European level who looking after free and open source software is still a hacker at heart no wonder
no one number dies for disclosure the last the last time we met in person that was actually
the fsfe hackathon at the ccc in Frankfurt right about two years ago or something you remember
when basically when we when we get when we all gather in that office including
Michael Viamer Michael if you're listening
first two full marks and then basically when we when we venture outside and got that pizza remember
with a cheap and wine that that that that pays through in for free and you were wondering about
receipts and stuff this is this is where you want to cut the story short what happens next
i don't remember the specifics at the moment but that at i take care about the receipts that
it makes sense even if i don't remember i mean all of all of the all the VIPs of the
fsfe were there for this for this website hackathon but i think that was 2019 or 2018 it can't be
remember but uh yeah i mean we picked the place and it was the of course cars computer club in
in Frankfurt there's one to the venue and about 20 maybe 30 people turned up and yes there must
be a photo because it was the day of the of the of the towel right it was global towels there's
something and that was the first if you remember that was that was that was that was the photo we took
before it all started to go sourced up you would have caught it as being really shucking in in terms
of producing as of called for the fsfe website but trip down memory lane Martin i'm sure you had
another question too then i was interested in what happened after pizza
apart from we cannot disclose this of course usually after the pizza i mean at the
weptons i participated for the fsfe web team uh they most of the time then continue to
either work on those topics or at least discuss this or discuss other free software topics
in the evening so i think i left it very late yeah i think i left it on midnight or something but see
what people will stay working on the website yeah that's i mean that that's something which i mean
for me is one of the the greatest things to be working for the free software foundation europe
that uh we as an organization we have a large community with so many volunteers who who spend so
much time on on those topics and i mean then being in the position of doing this in a full-time
capacity then being paid for it uh that's that's such an honor then seeing how many people then do
this in their free time and spend the evenings or the weekends working for for those goals together
that's that's something of yeah one of the parts for in in my work which is the most uh
yeah fulfilling part there that uh we we have so many people who who constantly work on those
topics for such a long time and even even in times when i mean i think one one of the one of the things
in the fsfe's work is that uh it's very difficult to get fast successes so a lot of the things we
work on it it depends on long-term work and being patient being persistent uh and uh so that that's
something which um yeah which needs also some certain kind of of person to to spend so much time
over a longer period to to accomplish things there and uh i mean there are also of course there are
some activities where you can also participate without investing too much time but i mean there there are
so many within the fsfe who i would like to see a counter of the of the work time there it's
it's incredible how much some some contribute there so i mean granted without these warren
tours the fsfe would probably be a different place um normally we do the call to action that
the warren but Matthias if you if you want to pitch the fsfe in about membership in terms of no you
don't have to be a member but if you want to contribute work Matthias know as a time go ahead
yes so i mean for us uh it's it's really crucial to have uh people contributing and as
as you said it's uh i mean the fsfe would be a completely different organization if we would
just be staff doing some work for free software we we are doing this work in in that way because
there are so many different uh volunteers with so many different backgrounds contributing there
they're part to to make the successful and so that's why if you now give me the opportunity uh
absolutely go ahead if you want to please please go to fsfe.org slash contribute and uh and see
what of those things there is something you you could you could envision to to work with us uh
be it i mean just subscribing to the news and further distributing them or um spreading
the word by ordering some uh promotion material sending giving spreading that in your local
community at your school or university or put that in the library um join our local meetings
discuss free software topics with others who are interested in that or join us at at when we give
speeches or when we have booths and discuss topics with us give us feedback there um join one of those
local groups or hackatons with the like the web team as you just mentioned it at something where
the the website it's very important for us to as it's often the first thing people see when they
haven't heard about fsfe before so our our web team really needs needs help there uh we have a
large team of translators and proof readers so uh we want to make sure that all the information
we have out there is available for people in their mother tongue so that even so that also the
people who who don't speak english at all or not so confident that they can also understand what
free software is about so that's very important uh to to help us there and uh yeah there are
several other points how you can how you can participate there and um so for us the the most
valuable thing you can do is that you actually participate and if you don't have time for that
then the next most valuable thing for us is uh to become a supporter and financially support us
so that we can pay the people who are working for the organization so that uh some of the tasks
which uh which have to be performed can then be done by by paid staff very interesting very
interesting uh because without these volunteers the fsfe wouldn't survive us i suppose so
it's it's almost good to see that people simply it's simply chip in and needless to say as
just said you don't have to be a techie as a matter of fact the first people that are run into here
in the Rhein-Mijn region as in the fsfe Rhein-Mijn which is the local organization here in in the in the
Rhein-Mijn area that was actually a Gido is a primary school teacher oh but i'm dead sure that he's a
teacher now he's he's actually not a teacher but he he um coordinated our education
activities for a long time no he's he's working for um uh for for another institution so
not not connected to to uh education facility but um yeah he was always very interested in this how
how can we make sure that children learn how technology works that they don't just get some
products uh a training that they understand that they can actually shape um shape the the world
around them so that they should not be educated to be just passive consumers of technology but
that technology is there to to fit their needs that they can actively shape how this will look
like and uh change things to fit their vision of of a future so that that was very important to him
and that's why he was uh what he was always summarizing what was uh what is happening uh about
free software and education posted uh news uh updates about this for a long time so and uh
then afterwards he was then also setting up this local group in the Rhein-Mijn area but uh he's
not he's actually not a teacher interesting that's what he was maybe wrong get old but the bottom line
is actually people if you want to get involved just check out the website there is a local
organization very close to you and all of these local organizations I think are listed on the
website right yes yes you you find them on the website then and if there is none then uh I mean
one of the advantages at the current time is that our local groups they all meet online at the
moment so uh while it has a lot of disadvantages at least there is disadvantage to to um to join some
of the groups and see what they're discussing there and uh meet with others uh who are who might
be like minded as you and what how a future should look like and then see what what you can
contribute there and yeah beside the the local groups I mean as I said they are all also other
other groups there uh working on different topics I mean we did not yet go into all the other
areas of work where we um we we are depending on on volunteers I mean if uh there are volunteers
at the moment working on the relation of artificial intelligence and uh and free software and we
publish an article about that just a few weeks ago so if you're interested in this topic get
involved there uh we are at the moment uh working a lot about route of freedom in in Europe so that
you can choose your own router and the ISP cannot decide about that and so we're working with many
different organizations in the different EU countries there so if if if you hear about that please
check out our website and see what might be the status in your country we have an activity package
there what you can do to to help us to promote the idea of a route of freedom in your country at the
moment there are uh there are other activities like uh free or android where we want to help people to
to um have a mobile phone with as much free software as possible so that's all something where you
can get involved and uh yeah many different other activities which you you might want to get engaged in
yeah that sounds sounds great I mean uh presumably uh the route of freedom and um and phone
freedom are some of the things that people touch every day but um if we you know if to bring your
message to a uh the biggest possible audience and and into the future I guess is um are you doing
much with with schools in terms of educating um people there and what um because obviously you know
the kids today they use their their proprietary stuff quite a lot that's through that way um so is
there a big job to do there still do you reckon and sorry be before before you ask about my ties
I just want to chip in freeing your local robot is always a good idea in terms of android
sorry go ahead Matias so I mean we for for the um in the education area uh in the last time there was
less activity than I would wish that the philosophy is doing and uh so if if if people are interested
there I that would be really great because I mean that's that's the that's the downside of course with
um that sometimes there are people who are dedicated they work on something and
then there might be some some circumstances that they don't have as much time anymore
and if you then don't have a larger group working on the topic it could happen that um
yeah the the work uh an organization can do on a certain topic then also decreases and
that's that's the point there that I mean uh fsv depends a lot on on on people who say that
this is an important topic for me and I want to invest time into this and uh now with uh with
the education area if you're interested in this uh reach out to us so we can see what with with your
motivation what you would like to do and with the skills you have what what can be done there
we have one um activity which is tailored for uh teenagers and children's um which we will start
at the end of the year and uh but that's that's something which is at the moment still in the
in the face of uh further defining exactly how to do that but yeah there's
something upcoming there one of the best ways to to make sure that when you're interested in this
area that you know when this is starting is that you go on fsv.org and then there is a blue box
there where you can subscribe to our email updates and then you will receive updates from us
not like every day not like every second day but uh some messages like once a month sometimes
two or three times a month uh something like that and then you you will not miss it when when
there are some some updates there and uh there's an activity where you can participate.
That's great thank you so sorry Chris did you want to ask the um uh the question about the
feature of the fsfe. I was just going yeah I was just going actually thank you for the
uh Matthias giving him the short time span that the fsfe has been around let's put it this way
joke aside where do you see this going in the next say 75 years or maybe even longer
so I I am really bad in predicting the future
so um I think that one of the crucial points will be if um if we accomplish it that people will
understand that software freedom is an crucial freedom for our society and that it's equally
important as other freedoms we have in our society like freedom of speech
uh freedom of the press freedom of assembly so that uh software freedom is also one of those
rights which which is essential in a in a society which is depending more and more on a digital
infrastructure and I think that's that's something which uh in the next when you now say 75
years that's definitely a perspective where I think we should ensure that um this is codified also
in the constitutions in the laws of the different countries that this is uh human right that you are
allowed to use the software for any purpose that you can study how it works talk and discuss with
others about what is in this software that you share it with others and that you improve it
uh and adapt it to your own needs that this is something which is crucial and uh independent of
all the other activities uh we are doing all the other fights we are doing there I think that's one
of the most crucial points we we have to achieve and uh definitely one of the things where um
for the FSFE I I want to continue to work that people realize that this is uh an important step
societies should go and uh and that they then actually implement this
interesting perspective um especially if that software has been funded with public money of course
as an everybody said taxpayer at the end of the day right so yeah
but times is there any question that we haven't touched upon that you maybe want to
elaborate before we close this off?
So many topics uh I would say I mean uh if one of the listeners has another question
which we didn't cover here then reach out to us and uh so we have on this contribute page there
several channels you can use to discuss different topics as I said you can subscribe to
to the updates there the FSFE also does a podcast with topics around free software so
um sign up to those channels to to uh get more information from us browse on our website and if
if you have questions reach out to us which out to the local groups if there are any close to you
or to the teams working on this um yeah I think that's that's probably the best there to I kind of
predict what questions might all come up for you so just just do it do it this way and reach out
to us and start a discussion with us. Should you be interested in the open source and free software
and let's just say if you if you weren't you wouldn't probably be listening to this podcast
Matthias that has been more than interesting thank you very much Martin and if yes we have to do
poxies Martin you want to go ahead and explain what the poxies? Oh yes of course yes we do this
with all I guess and we're not going to ask you what your favorite yes not going to ask you what
your favorite limited editor is but instead um the poxie week is basically an event a um a movie
a film a book a piece of software that you came across in the last week that has really impressed
you in one way or another let's put it that way so anything goes anything goes okay um so I'm
I'm now really disappointed uh uh they can also mention your favorite didn't accept this review
but only if you've used it in the last week
actually I just used it this morning to confirm that uh that I will be there with you and we can do
the recording so um yeah but I will I will now not talk about the editor of the beast and um instead
as as you asked me uh I'll go and and choose a book which I recently read and uh this week already
recommended three times again and the weeks before also recommended several times and which I already
now bought as a gift and sent it to several people so I uh yeah it's not about free software
directly but it's about the um the unders yeah how do you say that it's it's it's about the
your understanding how other people are and so the the book is it's by Rutger Pregman
it's a called humankind a hopeful history and uh so that that's something which uh I think if
you're working for free software and if you're in in whatever way you are contributing for for
free software writing free software uh translating um maintaining promoting documenting and so on
so whatever you do there uh I think it's it's it's a really great book to uh yeah um help you see
why it's good to share information with others because the others around you are are good people
most of the time that has been more than insightful Matthias and of course the links will be in the show
notes mark what's your box um following on from my previous problems uh I'm having having you've
gone from from Bible and Mars we have ashes to ashes next which is at the 80s so similar similar
this is close to the head let's say it right look no links of course will be in the show indeed
what about yourself first of all full credits have to go to the great british you sorry slash
uk met office for bringing in the summer early because apparently we now have a prolonged period
of absent rain in the uk at least two days where the sun has been shining and temperatures were
about 10 degrees centigrade so met office if you're listening for marks and of course the second
box that I have is actually a guy called car marks for the enough who wrote a very important book
called in german thus capital if he would translate this he would love it the capital which of course
doesn't translate because that would be the central city of the country so um links will be in the
show notes if you haven't read this people um please do if you're interested in the central idea
of communism and why this is important to some extent and unfortunately
car at the time of writing wasn't aware of free software because the whole thing hasn't hadn't
been invented yet we're looking at what 1800s or something sorry 1900s right from a completely
mistake and so uh industrial revolution time frame but it's still worth a read because the philosophy
behind this text supplies and with that i would like to think also i think yes you should mention
i mean having read parts of it during my studies it's it's not the easiest reading i know it's not
and if you if you manage to um when we begin germ full marks to you of course translations are
available but yeah there's a little bit of a learning curve involved so but it's still a valid text
for any philosophical background about the whole movement in terms of why goods should be
distributed in all the rest of it and don't mind the few flaws of the first implementations
essence of where my situation yes to get it right but apparently people has been working on this
jokes aside no my task thank you very much for being on the show Martin you want to yes you want
yes great you want to close it off okay cool no thank you very much Matthias it's i think
they have some ease doing some brilliant work here and i'm sure there'll be lots more to come in the
future and by that thank you thanks for the good view and thanks a lot to all the people out there
contributing to free software this is the Linux in-laws you come for the knowledge but stay for the
madness thank you for listening this podcast is licensed under the latest version of the creative
commons license tap attribution share like credits for the entry music go to bluesy roosters
for the song salute margo to twin flames for their peace called the flow used for the second
intros and finally to the lesser ground for their songs we just is used by the dark side you find
these and other details license and the creative commons at remando the website dedicated
to liberate the music industry from choking corporate legislation and other crap concepts
oh
given the fact that all all these of all that's all these events are now happening virtually
it's hard to to attend the person. I mean, once for example,
first of all, this back in swing isn't kind of taking place in Brussels.
The idea is actually to bribe Martin's wife so that he gets
slew for a weekend and can travel to Brussels and that's probably the first time
we're going to do a podcast actually in person on site. Yes,
date we confirm.
And it's still not sure if if Boston will be the first one because I mean if
anything else happens again with the pandemic, it could we could end up
and they cancel it. But I really hope that I mean also for myself
probably Boston will be one of the first events again then. So perfect.
I'll take this as a, as a, as a bullet, what it's doing contribution that we
can actually do the podcast then at the FSF East stand at the booth.
I think it's not the best place to have a conversation where you want to understand your.
It's just one. Yeah, yeah, it was when we tried we can talk at Boston again.
I think you're you're doing it very well to I mean with the way how you talk,
it's it's very easy for people to also do that remotely and that's that's
something where it's not everyone's nature that you are naturally laughing a lot
and thereby making it very and very nice atmosphere for for people to
participate. Oh, a ninth listener. We just we just interviewed him. Yeah, it's excellent.
My time. This is more than encouraging. We should have recorded this.
Which are stepping down again? What's wrong with the equipment, Mr. Lissair?
I think why? Because there was a lot of background noise when you were talking.
I'm talking now. It's gone. Did you turn off the Ethereum miners?
The police did that, obviously, that's in that newspaper. In the last half hour or whatever,
it's fair enough. That was over the week. Okay, so the wife couldn't do it but the police
could. Excellent. Nice one. I mean all the cryptocurrencies took a big hit recently.
Oh, it changes all the time. It does. Yes, it's not for the faint hearted. Let's put it this way.
But then I only lost 20 million euros, so that's not an awful lot.
Exactly. I hear I hear danger coming up.
They were humorous. No, no, no, you can't just cut this out.
And that's precisely what I'm more about, Martin.
No Irish nurses. No, nothing. No, no, I'm afraid not.
Because that will be good. You'll have to give me some other...
Anyway, it's all good. Don't worry. No, no, it's not Martin. That's fine.
That's fine to make you. It's fine.
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